₦airaland Forum

Humanism sees this life as the only life, so meaning and reward are found here. Islam teaches that this life is a test, while the Hereafter is the final destination where every sacrifice and every act of righteousness receives its true reward.
If there were no life after death, then those who sacrificed wealth, comfort, or even their lives for Allah would have given everything for nothing. Islam answers this with the promise of the Hereafter, where justice is completed and every deed is repaid.

Islam does not replace effort with prayer. It teaches that every part of life can become worship when lived according to Allah's guidance. No one can empirically prove the final resurrection today. The real question is whether Allah and His revelation are true. If the Qur'an is from Allah, then His promise of resurrection is certain because Allah never breaks His promise.
The issue is not whether someone has returned from the final resurrection, but whether the One who promised it can be trusted and in Islam the answer is yes.

kayjordan:
This interpretation you've provided, is similar to Humanism.

In basics, you imply prayer should be reserved for salvation and one's self, should endure the hardship of the earth.

In many faith, hardship on earth is seen as the testing ground of righteousness - if one proves righteousnessness on earth, without praying out of suffering, he may qualify for everlasting life in His Kingdom.

These are strong interpretations of both Quoranic and Biblical messages.

But what evidence has any one shown, that an eternal life exist beyond the books?

Why would anyone wish what is said unto a teacher, "A teacher's reward is in heaven", unto their own life?

How unfair would it be, for believers to suffer on earth, and realise no eternal life nor it bliss exist afterward?

I am not arguing for the unification of religions. Which definition of religion are you using?
My point is that the Creator and Sustainer of all is supreme, and what ultimately matters is that people sincerely seek Him and live according to the guidance He has revealed.
Even in the Bible, Solomon is praised for asking for wisdom rather than merely knowledge, because wisdom is the right application of truth. In Islam, knowledge is meant to be acted upon, and righteousness is measured not only by what a person knows, but by how faithfully they live in obedience to Allah.
What we can observe is people's outward conduct, but we cannot judge their final standing before Allah. The Quran teaches that ultimate judgment belongs to Him alone, for He alone knows every person's knowledge, intentions, circumstances, and deeds. Our responsibility is to follow His guidance faithfully, while leaving the final verdict to Him.

kayjordan:
This is a subjective belief.

Other religious believers think Buddhism, Christianity and Taoism is Supreme...

Who is the True unifier of all religions beyond our human imagination?

I guess that will be a tough question.

Should be an ouch moment 4U🤣. Definitely you know Allah promises many things.
Qur’an 16:30: The believers will have good in this world, and in the Hereafter their reward will be greater.

Qur’an 2:25: Believers are promised Paradise and goodness (including provisions) as a reward.

MaxInDHouse:
So stop quoting me if your own god has nothing to give its worshipers i'm talking about the true God not some Arabian stone deity!

honesttalk21:
Definitely you know Allah promises many things.

Your Arabian stone deity promised nothing as far as i'm concerned!

A YES or NO response would have been of help to you but since you have nothing to show for your stone deity that's why you are scared to answer the question directly.

In all traditions people do worship their ancestral deities so worshiping one way or another is as old as mankind but before an intelligent individual will abandon the deities worshipped by his own ancestors and cling to another there must be something really tangible to hold onto.

The Bible God claimed He created all things and told many stories of how He dealt with the Israelites including how He destroyed nations before them but all that is in the past we only read these stories in books.

So today why did i leave my ancestral deities for the God of Abraham?

There is just one reason!

The God of Abraham made a lot of promises and gradually all are fulfilling in my own eyes by His wonderfully organized worshipers throughout the earth {Isaiah 55:10-11} just as He promised to be with them but one thing that's really strange is how they are not using weapons nor force to achieve what this God promised {Isaiah 2:2-4} and yet they have successfully entered all nations {Matthew 28:19-20} to get worshipers and turned all of them to loving friends and families just as He foretold! Act 1:8 compare to John 13:34-35

Can you tell me what your Arabian stone deity promised and how its been doing it today?
If you can't then there is no difference between your so called Allah and other idols in different lands! Psalms 115:4-8🙂

kayjordan:
In your informed opinion, true worship is salvation-seeking and not earthly comfort.

The highlighted is WRONG don't say its my opinion but according to Jesus of Nazareth!

“Keep on, then, seeking first the Kingdom and his righteousness, and all these other things will be added to you. So never be anxious about the next day, for the next day will have its own anxieties. Each day has enough of its own troubles" Matthew 6:33-34

"I have said these things to you so that by means of me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation, but take courage! I have conquered the world.” John 16:33

These are the very words of Jesus Christ not my own opinion so going by what Jesus the only begotten Son of the one and only true God said there is no real comfort now and his disciples shouldn't seek such comfort otherwise it's the other side they will see!

Mark 8:18

MaxInDHouse:
Your Arabian stone deity promised nothing as far as i'm concerned!

A YES or NO response would have been of help to you but since you have nothing to show for your stone deity that's why you are scared to answer the question directly.

In all traditions people do worship their ancestral deities so worshiping one way or another is as old as mankind but before an intelligent individual will abandon the deities worshipped by his own ancestors and cling to another there must be something really tangible to hold onto.

The Bible God claimed He created all things and told many stories of how He dealt with the Israelites including how He destroyed nations before them but all that is in the past we only read these stories in books.

So today why did i leave my ancestral deities for the God of Abraham?

There is just one reason!

The God of Abraham made a lot of promises and gradually all are fulfilling in my own eyes by His wonderfully organized worshipers throughout the earth {Isaiah 55:10-11} just as He promised to be with them but one thing that's really strange is how they are not using weapons nor force to achieve what this God promised {Isaiah 2:2-4} and yet they have successfully entered all nations {Matthew 28:19-20} to get worshipers and turned all of them to loving friends and families just as He foretold! Act 1:8 compare to John 13:34-35

Can you tell me what your Arabian stone deity promised and how its been doing it today?
If you can't then there is no difference between your so called Allah and other idols in different lands! Psalms 115:4-8🙂

honesttalk21:
Mark 8:18

Worshiper of Arabian stone deity wants to quote God's word without any knowledge.
If you are seeing and hearing for truth what exactly has your Arabian stone deity promised and how has it been fulfilling its promise?
Ọmọ your Arabian stone deity is of no use just as the deities worshipped in remote areas around the world!

So next time don't quote me until you're ready to reason intelligently.🙂

You made a memorable line - "Allah would have given everything for nothing".

This excerpt, shows a need for strong faith - a strong will to hold onto a promise even when in doubt sometimes.

Discipline is way of life and encouraged in daily practices... but the question is, why should there be a reward in the Hereafter other than here?

If earthly reward is distracting and corrupting, why then is such kind of reward delayed and offered in a Holy Kingdom called Afterlife?

If Lucifer who was "rewarded" with beauty, could be distracted and corruptible, and thrown down the path of Hell - then what absolute guarantee is it, that the very "reward" God denies on earth, but promises in eternity, His saved-souls will also not default in character on receiving their rewards each?

honesttalk21:
Humanism sees this life as the only life, so meaning and reward are found here. Islam teaches that this life is a test, while the Hereafter is the final destination where every sacrifice and every act of righteousness receives its true reward.
If there were no life after death, then those who sacrificed wealth, comfort, or even their lives for Allah would have given everything for nothing. Islam answers this with the promise of the Hereafter, where justice is completed and every deed is repaid.

Islam does not replace effort with prayer. It teaches that every part of life can become worship when lived according to Allah's guidance. No one can empirically prove the final resurrection today. The real question is whether Allah and His revelation are true. If the Qur'an is from Allah, then His promise of resurrection is certain because Allah never breaks His promise.
The issue is not whether someone has returned from the final resurrection, but whether the One who promised it can be trusted and in Islam the answer is yes.

In my opinion, "Islam is slightly a more accepted RELIGION regardless of extremists attachments to it - if all you've written is true.

A religion that respects the rights, the will of man without judgment, is considered a religion of peace.

But if a religion judges, assumes or imposes its will on others, its a religion of war.

This is why neutrality is important.

If you do collective-good in society, you need not be attached to Christianity, Islam or Buddhism, to be considered GOOD, for you are already doing what a thousand preach.

honesttalk21:
I am not arguing for the unification of religions. Which definition of religion are you using?
My point is that the Creator and Sustainer of all is supreme, and what ultimately matters is that people sincerely seek Him and live according to the guidance He has revealed.
Even in the Bible, Solomon is praised for asking for wisdom rather than merely knowledge, because wisdom is the right application of truth. In Islam, knowledge is meant to be acted upon, and righteousness is measured not only by what a person knows, but by how faithfully they live in obedience to Allah.
What we can observe is people's outward conduct, but we cannot judge their final standing before Allah. The Quran teaches that ultimate judgment belongs to Him alone, for He alone knows every person's knowledge, intentions, circumstances, and deeds. Our responsibility is to follow His guidance faithfully, while leaving the final verdict to Him.

I accept the correction.

You said: "These are the very words of Jesus Christ not my own opinion so going by what Jesus the only begotten Son of the one and only true God said there is no real comfort now and his disciples shouldn't seek such comfort otherwise it's the other side they will see!"

What's the "other side" if i may ask, since everlasting life is here on earth, and principles of heaven and hell don't exist?

MaxInDHouse:
The highlighted is WRONG don't say its my opinion but according to Jesus of Nazareth!

“Keep on, then, seeking first the Kingdom and his righteousness, and all these other things will be added to you. So never be anxious about the next day, for the next day will have its own anxieties. Each day has enough of its own troubles" Matthew 6:33-34

"I have said these things to you so that by means of me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation, but take courage! I have conquered the world.” John 16:33

These are the very words of Jesus Christ not my own opinion so going by what Jesus the only begotten Son of the one and only true God said there is no real comfort now and his disciples shouldn't seek such comfort otherwise it's the other side they will see!

kayjordan:
I accept the correction.
What's the "other side" if i may ask, since everlasting life is here on earth, and principles of heaven and hell don't exist?

The otherside is deception where people keep on seeking what is not real because the life people are living now is not how God purposed it to be so anyone who builds his life around what we are seeing now will end up in disappointment.
That is why most people do commit suicide as they built their lives around what they are seeing!
For instance a disciple of Jesus refused to agree with Jesus but he kept following Jesus while his heart far away from Jesus. Later he sold Jesus for money but ended up committing suicide because he later discovered he is not happy with the money! 1Timothy 6:9-10

Hmm!

This is interesting!

If the "other side," is not a place, but an "emotion", then, is that the ultimate consequence God promises?

There are so many billionaires in the world today doing just fine with or without God - no suicide, little or no disappointments and merry life...

How do you explain that?

MaxInDHouse:
The otherside is deception where people keep on seeking what is not real because the life people are living now is not how God purposed it to be so anyone who builds his life around what we are seeing now will end up in disappointment.
That is why most people do commit suicide as they built their lives around what they are seeing!
For instance a disciple of Jesus refused to agree with Jesus but he kept following Jesus while his heart far away from Jesus. Later he sold Jesus for money but ended up committing suicide because he later discovered he is not happy with the money! 1Timothy 6:9-10

Certainly which ever way you live none is easy and specifically Allah acknowledges this in Quran 2:45 about this difficulty.

Seek help in every affair through patience in all its forms and through prayer. This path is difficult except for those humbled by awe of Allah, who live knowing they will return to Him.

Allah is with those who are patient, granting them His support, guidance, and aid through every trial. Qur'an 2:153 which is also expressed as Patience is never endured alone, Allah is with those who remain steadfast.

kayjordan:
You made a memorable line - "Allah would have given everything for nothing".

This excerpt, shows a need for strong faith - a strong will to hold onto a promise even when in doubt sometimes.

Discipline is way of life and encouraged in daily practices... but the question is, why should there be a reward in the Hereafter other than here?

If earthly reward is distracting and corrupting, why then is such kind of reward delayed and offered in a Holy Kingdom called Afterlife?

If Lucifer who was "rewarded" with beauty, could be distracted and corruptible, and thrown down the path of Hell - then what absolute guarantee is it, that the very "reward" God denies on earth, but promises in eternity, His saved-souls will also not default in character on receiving their rewards each?

Islam does not deny the righteous goodness in this life; rather, believers are taught to pray, Our Lord, grant us good in this world and good in the Hereafter Qur'an 2:201, and Allah promises a good life to those who believe and do righteous deeds Qur'an 16:97. Yet this world remains a test, while the Hereafter is where Allah's promise of perfect justice and complete reward is fulfilled.

Yes, but in reference to my previous question in quote:

"If Lucifer who was "rewarded" with beauty, could be distracted and corruptible, and thrown down the path of Hell - then what absolute guarantee is it, that the very "reward" God denies on earth, but promises in eternity, His saved-souls will also not default in character on receiving their rewards each?


How would you answer that?

Please note: Goodness is separate from reward.

honesttalk21:
Certainly which ever way you live none is easy and specifically Allah acknowledges this in Quran 2:45 about this difficulty.

Seek help in every affair through patience in all its forms and through prayer. This path is difficult except for those humbled by awe of Allah, who live knowing they will return to Him.

Allah is with those who are patient, granting them His support, guidance, and aid through every trial. Qur'an 2:153 which is also expressed as Patience is never endured alone, Allah is with those who remain steadfast.



Islam does not deny the righteous goodness in this life; rather, believers are taught to pray, Our Lord, grant us good in this world and good in the Hereafter Qur'an 2:201, and Allah promises a good life to those who believe and do righteous deeds Qur'an 16:97. Yet this world remains a test, while the Hereafter is where Allah's promise of perfect justice and complete reward is fulfilled.

kayjordan:
Hmm!
This is interesting!
If the "other side," is not a place, but an "emotion", then, is that the ultimate consequence God promises?
There are so many billionaires in the world today doing just fine with or without God - no suicide, little or no disappointments and merry life...
How do you explain that?

Most people do feel like riches is the height of bliss until money fails.

For instance a billionaire may be tempted to think he could help people in his neighborhood by contesting for a public office only to meet his doom or become enemy to the same people he wish to help.

But in true religion everyone knows the system we are in presently is filled with uncertainty so no one among us rely on this system.

True to the fact, money doesn't buy happiness.

But poverty doesn't create happiness either.

The middle class are experiencing both sides of rich and poor.

So, the situation is what it is.

But if a man has an opportunity to be rich either through talent or opportunity, he should take advantage of it and not be bound by religious rules of scarcity.

That's my opinion.

MaxInDHouse:
Most people do feel like riches is the height of bliss until money fails.

For instance a billionaire may be tempted to think he could help people in his neighborhood by contesting for a public office only to meet his doom or become enemy to the same people he wish to help.

But in true religion everyone knows the system we are in presently is filled with uncertainty so no one among us rely on this system.

kayjordan:
True to the fact, money doesn't buy happiness. But poverty doesn't create happiness either. The middle class are experiencing both sides of rich and poor. So, the situation is what it is.
But if a man has an opportunity to be rich either through talent or opportunity, he should take advantage of it and not be bound by religious rules of scarcity. That's my opinion.

Our God is not against riches but what He is saying is we should be careful not to rely on material things otherwise when those things are no longer there will the worshiper remain loyal to God?

The true worshiper as you may call it, should remain loyal to God even when broke.


If such worshiper doesn't stay loyal to God in financial crisis, then such loyalty to God is attached to money than God Himself.


A true believer as you call one - that reads the Bible and listen to the sermon, should remain loyal to God in all situations without test.

MaxInDHouse:
Our God is not against riches but what He is saying is we should be careful not to rely on material things otherwise when those things are no longer there will the worshiper remain loyal to God?

kayjordan:
The true worshiper as you may call it, should remain loyal to God even when broke.

That is real faith!

Yes, that's real faith with enough answers to prove it is.

But if there's no evidence of substance,

It's just basically floating faith, not concrete faith.

Because there seems to be too much religious drama over a "feeling" called faith.

I ask these anti-christ questions not to ridicule religion, but to understand if you feel things mentally to conclude there's a God or if you just follow the narratives people tell you and assume there's God...

MaxInDHouse:
That is real faith!

The guarantee isn't the reward itself; it's that the test is over. Iblis/Lucifer fell while he was still being tested and had the ability to choose. Paradise isn't another test. It's the final reward after Allah has judged and purified His servants. The Quran describes its people as secure forever. So the reward doesn't make them righteous; it is given because Allah has already completed their trial. That's why Islam emphasizes patience now. The testing comes before the reward, not after it.

kayjordan:
Yes, but in reference to my previous question in quote:

"If Lucifer who was "rewarded" with beauty, could be distracted and corruptible, and thrown down the path of Hell - then what absolute guarantee is it, that the very "reward" God denies on earth, but promises in eternity, His saved-souls will also not default in character on receiving their rewards each?


How would you answer that?

Please note: Goodness is separate from reward.

kayjordan:
But if there's no evidence of substance,

Faith is the assured expectation of what is hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities that are not seen. For by means of it, the men of ancient times had witness borne to them. Hebrews 11:1-2

When Jesus followed all the instruction given to him on how to preach, teach and use God's power to perform miracles yet 99% of Jews didn't believe him that doesn't mean God failed him rather it means Satan has a firm grip on most Jews. Likewise when a faithful servant of God have done all things he should do but makes little money just to survive that doesn't mean God is not alive or God is not there for him rather it means Satan wants him to do things that will make him an enemy of God.

For instance God has promised Jesus that he will rule over planet earth {Isaiah 9:6-7} and all he had to do is talk to people about how his government will run but Satan wanted Jesus to turn against God {Luke 4:5-7} so Satan promised Jesus that all what God promised will take a long process Jesus didn't give in. That is the type of faith a believer should have! Hebrews 12:2

Your submission is clear and well defended, but the "place" being referred to in my argument is "Heaven" - and you refer to it as a non-trial abode...

If so, "Lucifer," as the interest of discussion, was in Heaven during his trial and he failed his test in Heaven.

Shouldn't it be fair to conclude, the Hereafter (Paradise) is still a place of trials as opposed to what you defended?

honesttalk21:
The guarantee isn't the reward itself; it's that the test is over. Iblis/Lucifer fell while he was still being tested and had the ability to choose. Paradise isn't another test. It's the final reward after Allah has judged and purified His servants. The Quran describes its people as secure forever. So the reward doesn't make them righteous; it is given because Allah has already completed their trial. That's why Islam emphasizes patience now. The testing comes before the reward, not after it.

This is a fantastic response.

If the Jews didn't believe Jesus's miracles and demonstrations as you suggest - and Satan controlled the minds of the Jews against Jesus, as you also suggested...

Would it be accurate to assume - the Jews were thinking at a different level or smarter level, than to just attach the devil to their disbelief?


Portraying poverty as a tool, Satan uses to turn God's servants from God, still contradicts wealth.

Simply, if poverty can turn a servant of God away from God through Satan, then also, wealth can do same through Satan.

This makes testing faith, non-realistic in all conditions.

No servant is as righteousness as Jesus (If he ever was).

MaxInDHouse:
Faith is the assured expectation of what is hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities that are not seen. For by means of it, the men of ancient times had witness borne to them. Hebrews 11:1-2

When Jesus followed all the instruction given to him on how to preach, teach and use God's power to perform miracles yet 99% of Jews didn't believe him that doesn't mean God failed him rather it means Satan has a firm grip on most Jews. Likewise when a faithful servant of God have done all things he should do but makes little money just to survive that doesn't mean God is not alive or God is not there for him rather it means Satan wants him to do things that will make him an enemy of God.

For instance God has promised Jesus that he will rule over planet earth {Isaiah 9:6-7} and all he had to do is talk to people about how his government will run but Satan wanted Jesus to turn against God {Luke 4:5-7} so Satan promised Jesus that all what God promised will take a long process Jesus didn't give in. That is the type of faith a believer should have! Hebrews 12:2

kayjordan:
If the Jews didn't believe Jesus's miracles and demonstrations as you suggest.

They were filled with selfishness and greed!

God only used them as example of how people throughout the earth should be organized not that they would dominate other people but due to the fact that the Christ has been promised to be raised among them {Isaiah 9:6-7} their thoughts is driving towards dominating all the nations of the earth.
So when Jesus arrived as Christ they knew he was the promised prophet but since he's teaching them to be humble {Matthew 5:5; 12:23; Luke 14:7-11} (which they never wanted to be) they condemned him and only a few of them accepted his wise counsel.🙂

Hmm!

I can't blame the Jews for being greedy and selfish.

Everyone then, had the right to become whatever they wanted - and reject whatever didn't suit them.

Call it Sin or Worship of Money - everyone has a unique personality that can accept or reject any lifestyle, belief or religion.

MaxInDHouse:
They were filled with selfishness and greed!

God only used them as example of how people throughout the earth should be organized not that they would dominate other people but due to the fact that the Christ has been promised to be raised among them {Isaiah 9:6-7} their thoughts is driving towards dominating all the nations of the earth.
So when Jesus arrived as Christ they knew he was the promised prophet but since he's teaching them to be humble {Matthew 5:5; 12:23; Luke 14:7-11} (which they never wanted to be) they condemned him and only a few of them accepted his wise counsel.🙂

kayjordan:
Hmm!
I can't blame the Jews for being greedy and selfish. Everyone then, had the right to become whatever they wanted - and reject whatever didn't suit them.
Call it Sin or Worship of Money - everyone has a unique personality that can accept or reject any lifestyle, belief or religion.

Well this is what the true God told their forefathers in the wilderness before He bought them into the promised land:

"'Now if you will strictly obey my voice and keep my covenant, you will certainly become my special property out of all peoples, for the whole earth belongs to me. You will become to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words that you are to say to the Israelites.” Exodus 19:5-6

After bringing them to the promised land Moses said to them:

For Jehovah your God is walking about within your camp to deliver you and to hand over your enemies to you, and your camp must be holy, so that he does not see anything indecent in you and turn away from accompanying you. Deuteronomy 23:14

So when they turned against Jesus God didn't just condemn the people rather He gave them another opportunity by allowing the few disciples of Jesus to bear witness to the Jews! Act 2:24-36

After hearing what Peter said that day over 3,000 Jews were stabbed in the heart with that message and they said to Peter:

“Men, brothers, what should we do?” Act 2:37

But their politicians insisted on turning against Jesus and whatever has to do with him {Act 4:18; 5:28} that is why till today the entire Jewish nation was condemned {Matthew 21:43; 23:37-38} unless any individual from among them repent and accept Jesus as Lord and Christ. Act 2:38

So that is why the true God is now using the nation that's producing the fruit expected of the Jews:
JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES!🙂

Why should the Jews be condemned for not simply abiding?

The persecution of Jews over the years was a capital infringement on human right.

Today, the Jews are doing quite well in business around the world as a result of the hostility towards them from Christians.

MaxInDHouse:
Well this is what the true God told their forefathers in the wilderness before He bought them into the promised land:

"'Now if you will strictly obey my voice and keep my covenant, you will certainly become my special property out of all peoples, for the whole earth belongs to me. You will become to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words that you are to say to the Israelites.” Exodus 19:5-6

After bringing them to the promised land Moses said to them:

For Jehovah your God is walking about within your camp to deliver you and to hand over your enemies to you, and your camp must be holy, so that he does not see anything indecent in you and turn away from accompanying you. Deuteronomy 23:14

So when they turned against Jesus God didn't just condemn the people rather He gave them another opportunity by allowing the few disciples of Jesus to bear witness to the Jews! Act 2:24-36

After hearing what Peter said that day over 3,000 Jews were stabbed in the heart with that message and they said to Peter:

“Men, brothers, what should we do?” Act 2:37

But their politicians insisted on turning against Jesus and whatever has to do with him {Act 4:18; 5:28} that is why till today the entire Jewish nation was condemned {Matthew 21:43; 23:37-38} unless any individual from among them repent and accept Jesus as Lord and Christ. Act 2:38

So that is why the true God is now using the nation that's producing the fruit expected of the Jews:
JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES!🙂

kayjordan:
Why should the Jews be condemned for not simply abiding?

The true God didn't condemn the Jews as humans rather He condemned them as people deserving His holiness that is why they were displaced from the land God promised Abraham Isaac and Jacob. So both Jews and Samaritans can find other places to stay among the rest of mankind but it's the land God promised to give His own worshipers they don't deserve!

kayjordan:
The persecution of Jews over the years was a capital infringement on human right. Today, the Jews are doing quite well in business around the world as a result of the hostility towards them from Christians.

First of all religionists persecuting their fellow humans are not true Christians so withdraw that statement.
Secondly what God promised His true worshipers on the land He gave Abraham Isaac and Jacob is PEACE and SECURITY not WORLDLY RICHES.
Whatever JEHOVAH promises His own worshipers can't be achieved by any other people so worldly riches could be gotten by anyone and any race but as for what Jehovah promised it's only for His own true worshipers!

Your challenge or conclusion assumes that calling it heaven means it must be identical to the eternal Paradise promised after the Day of Judgment. But the guarantee I'm defending isn't about the place; it's about the state of those who enter it.
Iblis fell while he was still under trial, with the ability to disobey. The Quran describes the people of Paradise differently: Allah removes whatever is in their hearts, grants them security, and says, They will never be made to leave it (Quran 15:48; 7:43). There is no example in the Quran of someone being purified, admitted into the final Paradise, and then falling.
Even Iblis' own request supports this distinction. He asked, Grant me respite until the Day they are resurrected (Quran 15:36). That only makes sense if the events surrounding his fall occurred before the final judgment. Had he already been in the post-judgment Paradise, asking for respite until the Resurrection would be meaningless.
So the issue isn't whether Iblis was in heaven. It's whether anyone falls after Allah has completed their judgment and admitted them into the eternal Paradise. The Quran presents no such case.

kayjordan:
Your submission is clear and well defended, but the "place" being referred to in my argument is "Heaven" - and you refer to it as a non-trial abode...

If so, "Lucifer," as the interest of discussion, was in Heaven during his trial and he failed his test in Heaven.

Shouldn't it be fair to conclude, the Hereafter (Paradise) is still a place of trials as opposed to what you defended?

You present two phases of After-life, namely:

1. A state of Limbo which is the judgment phase before Paradise.

2. An actual destination called Paradise.

I suppose, Satan/Iblis was in the Limbo/Judgment phase.

If the above reinterpretation is correct, that clears the puzzling part in this initial argument.

The other argument leads to two new challenges, if I may:

1. Why was endowed Satan on trial with other Angels for an earthly life never lived - if the earthly life is the prerequisite for trial?

2. If Allah/God is Supreme, why would He (Allah/God) have little faith in his creations - and have them tested, if only He, sees yesterday and tomorrow?

honesttalk21:
Your challenge or conclusion assumes that calling it heaven means it must be identical to the eternal Paradise promised after the Day of Judgment. But the guarantee I'm defending isn't about the place; it's about the state of those who enter it.
Iblis fell while he was still under trial, with the ability to disobey. The Quran describes the people of Paradise differently: Allah removes whatever is in their hearts, grants them security, and says, They will never be made to leave it (Quran 15:48; 7:43). There is no example in the Quran of someone being purified, admitted into the final Paradise, and then falling.
Even Iblis' own request supports this distinction. He asked, Grant me respite until the Day they are resurrected (Quran 15:36). That only makes sense if the events surrounding his fall occurred before the final judgment. Had he already been in the post-judgment Paradise, asking for respite until the Resurrection would be meaningless.
So the issue isn't whether Iblis was in heaven. It's whether anyone falls after Allah has completed their judgment and admitted them into the eternal Paradise. The Quran presents no such case.

The promised Land has been called:

the land of Jews,
the Land of true Christians,
the Land of Abraham's people,
the Land of Mohammed's people and
the Land of unbelievers.

Every faith survives presently, including the Jewish faith.

No total condemnation of any faith on earth so far.

And no situation report of any eternal condemnation nor a revelation of the true eternal place for God's people; be it of God Almighty, or Almighty Allah or Buddha...

In essence, if condemnation is the punishment for unbelievers - how determined and ready are you to find out that your faith alongside others, have not followed the path of righteousness all along, but rather the path of condemnation, if any?

MaxInDHouse:
The true God didn't condemn the Jews as humans rather He condemned them as people deserving His holiness that is why they were displaced from the land God promised Abraham Isaac and Jacob. So both Jews and Samaritans can find other places to stay among the rest of mankind but it's the land God promised to give His own worshipers they don't deserve!


First of all religionists persecuting their fellow humans are not true Christians so withdraw that statement.
Secondly what God promised His true worshipers on the land He gave Abraham Isaac and Jacob is PEACE and SECURITY not WORLDLY RICHES.
Whatever JEHOVAH promises His own worshipers can't be achieved by any other people so worldly riches could be gotten by anyone and any race but as for what Jehovah promised it's only for His own true worshipers!