₦airaland Forum

kayjordan:
how determined and ready are you to find out that your faith alongside others, have not followed the path of righteousness all along, but rather the path of condemnation, if any?

God promised His true worshipers:

They will beat their swords into plowshares And their spears into pruning shears. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, Nor will they learn war anymore. Isaiah 2:4b

Will they be found in just a location?

God answered:

And many PEOPLES will go and say: Isaiah 2:3a

How are they going to achieve this?

At that time those who fear Jehovah spoke with one another, each one with his companion, and Jehovah kept paying attention and listening. And a book of remembrance was written before him for those fearing Jehovah and for those meditating on his name. Malachi 3:16

That's the reason why Jesus sent his true disciples Jehovah's Witnesses out to go and speak with people in their homes! Matthew 10:11-13

Ọmọ call any other religionist to come and use the scriptures to prove their religion is the truth nah! 2Timothy 2:15🥱

Muslims, Atheist and Agnostics in this thread, have proven their religion one way or the other.

And they sound exactly like you, CONFIDENT.

This is why I keep repeating: how sure is your path?

And what if all "sacrifices" on earth lead to a blank life...?

Because, the writers of Holy Books, only received revelations here on earth - they never died and resurrected to bring forth evidence of eternal life.

The world is driven by ideas of eternal life; not the true fact.

Every religion believes in Heaven, but only ONE RELIGION will make it to that Heaven.

Or perhaps, there are many Heavens - one for each.

MaxInDHouse:
God promised His true worshipers:

They will beat their swords into plowshares And their spears into pruning shears. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, Nor will they learn war anymore. Isaiah 2:4b

Will they be found in just a location?

God answered:

And many PEOPLES will go and say: Isaiah 2:3a

How are they going to achieve this?

At that time those who fear Jehovah spoke with one another, each one with his companion, and Jehovah kept paying attention and listening. And a book of remembrance was written before him for those fearing Jehovah and for those meditating on his name. Malachi 3:16

That's the reason why Jesus sent his true disciples Jehovah's Witnesses out to go and speak with people in their homes! Matthew 10:11-13

Ọmọ call any other religionist to come and use the scriptures to prove their religion is the truth nah! 2Timothy 2:15🥱

kayjordan:
Muslims, Atheist and Agnostics in this thread, have proven their religion one way or the other. And they sound exactly like you, CONFIDENT.

Now you have started lying again!😂
No Muslim can be confident of Islam because Muhammad himself who is the founder of the religion told them he doesn't know what Allah may choose to do with him so they should continue praying for him that's why all Muslims have continued praying for Muhammad, his family and disciples till today. Though due to shame they may not admit what Muhammad told them as his last statement but ask any Muslim why they always pray for Muhammad if they are truly CONFIDENT of their religion.
Agnostics don't even know what God says because the group always say they can't prove or disapprove the existence of God. So stop deceiving yourself!🥱

kayjordan:
This is why I keep repeating: how sure is your path?
And what if all "sacrifices" on earth lead to a blank life...?

Despite all the evidences i've shown you from God's promises to how it's been fulfilling till today?
Guy you love deceiving yourself walahi talahi!😂
Different schools of thought have been saying they have knowledge about God and heaven yet they often pick up weapons against one another in the same religion or organization.
Please if you are not deceiving yourself how can you compare such people with Jehovah's Witnesses?
For your information God simply means the supreme being so if two people truly believe in someone as the supreme being can they pick up weapons against each other knowing fully well what the supreme one said about judging whoever is evil?
Whether Muslim or Agnostics or any other group you can think of politics always makes them hate, fight and kill their own members not to even talk of their neighbors.
So if they are truly CONFIDENT in what the SUPREME BEING says why are they still fighting and killing themselves?🥱

I think we're getting closer, though I'd avoid calling the pre-Judgment phase limbo, since that's neither an Islamic concept nor Barzakh, which refers specifically to the state between death and resurrection (Qur'an 23:100). Iblis' rebellion occurred before humanity's earthly history unfolded and long before the final Judgment, during the period in which Allah tested His morally accountable creatures according to the roles He assigned them.
On your first question, the premise assumes that earthly life is the only valid form of trial. The Qur'an does not teach that. It does not subject every accountable creature to the same mode of testing; rather, each is tested according to its nature and responsibility. Humans are tested through earthly life with its desires, hardships, and mortality. Iblos, a jinn endowed with free choice (Qur'an 18:50) was tested through Allah's direct command to prostrate before Adam. His exalted position did not exempt him from trial; if anything, greater privilege carried greater accountability. The form of the test differed, but the principle remained the same. A morally accountable being confronted with Allah's command, whose response manifested obedience or rebellion.
This is not uniquely Islamic. Most Christian theology likewise holds that fallen angels were tested without first living an earthly life. So varying the form of the test according to the nature of the creature is a shared theological principle, not a uniquely Islamic explanation.
On your second question, Allah does not test because He lacks knowledge or confidence in His creation. His knowledge is perfect, complete, and eternal. The purpose of the test is to manifest His justice by bringing freely chosen actions into reality, so that reward and punishment rest upon deeds actually performed. Allah's foreknowledge does not compel anyone's choices; it means only that He knows them perfectly. As the Qur'an says He who created death and life to test you as to which of you is best in deed. (Qur'an 67:2) and Allah created the heavens and the earth in truth so that every soul may be recompensed for what it has earned, and they will not be wronged (Qur'an 45:22).

The same principle is found in most Christian theology: God's omniscience does not negate moral responsibility. Thus, this is not a difficulty unique to Islam but a consequence of affirming both God's perfect knowledge and genuine freedom. From the Islamic perspective, the test is not for Allah to learn anything. He already knows all things but for His justice to be fully manifest, so that every soul is judged by the choices it freely made.

kayjordan:
You present two phases of After-life, namely:

1. A state of Limbo which is the judgment phase before Paradise.

2. An actual destination called Paradise.

I suppose, Satan/Iblis was in the Limbo/Judgment phase.

If the above reinterpretation is correct, that clears the puzzling part in this initial argument.

The other argument leads to two new challenges, if I may:

1. Why was endowed Satan on trial with other Angels for an earthly life never lived - if the earthly life is the prerequisite for trial?

2. If Allah/God is Supreme, why would He (Allah/God) have little faith in his creations - and have them tested, if only He, sees yesterday and tomorrow?

Good submission.

The nature of spirits certainly differ from the nature of humans. However, when humans cross the earth-line into eternity, they become spirit-converts and "equal" to all spirits existing.

Although, superiority of spiritual beings is a ranking order in the spiritual realm - still, that rule doesn't totally separate the nature of spirit-converts (former humans) from pre-existing spiritual beings already existing in eternal life.

Therefore, all spirits are similar in nature and deserve similar test in my philosophical opinion.

If my above submission is very well so, all eternal spirits may therefore, truly be the same kind afterward - and there may exist as well, a followed ill example of fore-spirit (Satan/Iblis) by sucessive spirits (former humans)

We defend the Paradise very well with background/historical biblical knowledge, but fail to update faith with current revelations of the true politics likely ongoing in Paradise, if any - that's if Paradise isn't already an imperfect extension of earth.

On the second part of your submission, I maintain a stance - the knowledge of God remain superior over free-will, only if God truly exist.

If God's manifestation is referenced to man-made inventions, the answers would differ - simply because, Man is "imperfect" and not all-knowing thus, man must continue to test inventions through trial and error.

However God's nature is different, for He is ascertained PERFECT. Therefore, God's creatures are within His Omnipotent Knowledge - He need not seek what is KNOWN, for it's imperfect men that do so.

As you have presented and defended, God is not seeking knowledge of His creations as you posit - He is allowing the nature of His creatures flourish on earth, through the power of free-will - for that way, they will be tested - according to you.

Rather, I differ by repositioning the argument to: "God is making a pawn out of His creatures to his advantage" - knowing well, seekers of His Kingdom (His creatures), will go astray while some, will walk the path of light - and yet punish those that walk through darkness, knowing well, He made them all that way.

Why condemn what you know is made faulty, when you can fix it and not judge it.

I welcome a rebuttal challenge on this, if you may...

honesttalk21:
I think we're getting closer, though I'd avoid calling the pre-Judgment phase limbo, since that's neither an Islamic concept nor Barzakh, which refers specifically to the state between death and resurrection (Qur'an 23:100). Iblis' rebellion occurred before humanity's earthly history unfolded and long before the final Judgment, during the period in which Allah tested His morally accountable creatures according to the roles He assigned them.
On your first question, the premise assumes that earthly life is the only valid form of trial. The Qur'an does not teach that. It does not subject every accountable creature to the same mode of testing; rather, each is tested according to its nature and responsibility. Humans are tested through earthly life with its desires, hardships, and mortality. Iblos, a jinn endowed with free choice (Qur'an 18:50) was tested through Allah's direct command to prostrate before Adam. His exalted position did not exempt him from trial; if anything, greater privilege carried greater accountability. The form of the test differed, but the principle remained the same. A morally accountable being confronted with Allah's command, whose response manifested obedience or rebellion.
This is not uniquely Islamic. Most Christian theology likewise holds that fallen angels were tested without first living an earthly life. So varying the form of the test according to the nature of the creature is a shared theological principle, not a uniquely Islamic explanation.
On your second question, Allah does not test because He lacks knowledge or confidence in His creation. His knowledge is perfect, complete, and eternal. The purpose of the test is to manifest His justice by bringing freely chosen actions into reality, so that reward and punishment rest upon deeds actually performed. Allah's foreknowledge does not compel anyone's choices; it means only that He knows them perfectly. As the Qur'an says He who created death and life to test you as to which of you is best in deed. (Qur'an 67:2) and Allah created the heavens and the earth in truth so that every soul may be recompensed for what it has earned, and they will not be wronged (Qur'an 45:22).

The same principle is found in most Christian theology: God's omniscience does not negate moral responsibility. Thus, this is not a difficulty unique to Islam but a consequence of affirming both God's perfect knowledge and genuine freedom. From the Islamic perspective, the test is not for Allah to learn anything. He already knows all things but for His justice to be fully manifest, so that every soul is judged by the choices it freely made.

You've made a generalization of Islam. There are two classes of Muslim here in Nigeria; the flexible and rigid.

The flexible Muslims are accommodating, while the rigid Muslim are the religious extremists and the extremist terrorists respectively.

If Islam is picking up weapons, it's definitely the rigid members doing so.

Mohammed wasn't confident according to you, because his fate was uncertain. In my opinion, that was a good and safe judgment compared to the 21 century confidence of Christians and Muslims.

This is why I keep repeating, no one should be too sure of what they THINK of Heaven.

If it's going to rain tomorrow, you can't be too sure it will - It's better to remain tentative than confident over something you can't accurately measure or predict.

If I ask you if it's going to rain tomorrow Sunday, how confidently would you predict it without checking Google weather? And even if you do check Google, how accurate would it be?


Separately, do members of JW Organization vote on election days?

MaxInDHouse:
Now you have started lying again!😂
No Muslim can be confident of Islam because Muhammad himself who is the founder of the religion told them he doesn't know what Allah may choose to do with him so they should continue praying for him that's why all Muslims have continued praying for Muhammad, his family and disciples till today. Though due to shame they may not admit what Muhammad told them as his last statement but ask any Muslim why they always pray for Muhammad if they are truly CONFIDENT of their religion.
Agnostics don't even know what God says because the group always say they can't prove or disapprove the existence of God. So stop deceiving yourself!🥱


Despite all the evidences i've shown you from God's promises to how it's been fulfilling till today?
Guy you love deceiving yourself walahi talahi!😂
Different schools of thought have been saying they have knowledge about God and heaven yet they often pick up weapons against one another in the same religion or organization.
Please if you are not deceiving yourself how can you compare such people with Jehovah's Witnesses?
For your information God simply means the supreme being so if two people truly believe in someone as the supreme being can they pick up weapons against each other knowing fully well what the supreme one said about judging whoever is evil?
Whether Muslim or Agnostics or any other group you can think of politics always makes them hate, fight and kill their own members not to even talk of their neighbors.
So if they are truly CONFIDENT in what the SUPREME BEING says why are they still fighting and killing themselves?🥱

Well thank you but I am not in position to see myself as good. I think we've moved beyond simply defending positions and are now examining first principles, which is a more fruitful discussion.
From the Islamic perspective, I would not begin by assuming that everyone in the hereafter becomes part of a single, identical class of spirits. The Qur'an does not describe the afterlife in those terms. Rather, it emphasizes resurrection, judgment, accountability, and a transformed existence decreed by Allah. While that existence differs from earthly life, the Qur'an does not present it as dissolving all distinctions into one uniform spiritual nature.
Also, Allah's foreknowledge and decree should not be confused with coercion. His eternal knowledge encompasses every human choice, and nothing occurs outside his decree, yet the Qur'an consistently holds people responsible for what they freely choose. The test is therefore not for Allah to discover anything since he already knows all things but for his justice to be manifested through deeds that creatures themselves willingly perform. Divine knowledge explains why Allah's judgment is perfect; it does not negate the reality of moral responsibility.
For the same reason, the permanence of Paradise is not explained by its inhabitants becoming incapable of choice because they have become spirits. Rather, Allah has completed their trial, purified their hearts, removed every inclination toward sin and resentment, and promised them everlasting security. Their eternal obedience is therefore the fulfillment of Allah's perfect decree and justice, not the loss of meaningful personhood or the reduction of all beings to a single spiritual nature.

kayjordan:
Good submission.

The nature of spirits certainly differ from the nature of humans. However, when humans cross the earth-line into eternity, they become spirit-converts and "equal" to all spirits existing.

Although, superiority of spiritual beings is a ranking order in the spiritual realm - still, that rule doesn't totally separate the nature of spirit-converts (former humans) from pre-existing spiritual beings already existing in eternal life.

Therefore, all spirits are similar in nature and deserve similar test in my philosophical opinion.

If my above submission is very well so, all eternal spirits may therefore, truly be the same kind afterward - and there may exist as well, a followed ill example of fore-spirit (Satan/Iblis) by sucessive spirits (former humans)

We defend the Paradise very well with background/historical biblical knowledge, but fail to update faith with current revelations of the true politics likely ongoing in Paradise, if any - that's if Paradise isn't already an imperfect extension of earth.

On the second part of your submission, I maintain a stance - the knowledge of God remain superior over free-will, only if God truly exist.

If God's manifestation is referenced to man-made inventions, the answers would differ - simply because, Man is "imperfect" and not all-knowing thus, man must continue to test inventions through trial and error.

However God's nature is different, for He is ascertained PERFECT. Therefore, God's creatures are within His Omnipotent Knowledge - He need not seek what is KNOWN, for it's imperfect men that do so.

As you have presented and defended, God is not seeking knowledge of His creations as you posit - He is allowing the nature of His creatures flourish on earth, through the power of free-will - for that way, they will be tested - according to you.

Rather, I differ by repositioning the argument to: "God is making a pawn out of His creatures to his advantage" - knowing well, seekers of His Kingdom (His creatures), will go astray while some, will walk the path of light - and yet punish those that walk through darkness, knowing well, He made them all that way.

Why condemn what you know is made faulty, when you can fix it and not judge it.

I welcome a rebuttal challenge on this, if you may...

kayjordan:
You've made a generalization of Islam. There are two classes of Muslim here in Nigeria; the flexible and rigid.

I showed you what Muhammad said yet you want to cover up for this FALSE RELIGION. Muhammad said there is no assurance for Muslims including himself so what CONFIDENCE do you want to give his followers?
Whether you believe or not Jesus said:

“All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth. Go, therefore, and make disciples of people of all the nations" Matthew 28:18-19

Guy abeg stop deceiving yourself!🥱

kayjordan:
Separately, do members of JW Organization vote on election days?

Regarding Jehovah's Witnesses Jesus said:

"They are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world." John 17:16

You can search Nairaland to see if any member of Jehovah's Witnesses make any comment on the politics section.
We only hope in God's kingdom and that is the only government we preach about or in other words campaign for! Matthew 10:7

You are welcome!

I acknowledge the absolutism of Qur'an's truth. On a different account, the knowledge of God/Allah falls within our human judgment and understanding - and we are limited by nature to know what can be known.

Our scope of human reasoning doesn't extend beyond the universe therefore, any knowledge we create about the "beyond" becomes fantasy.

This isn't discrediting the legitimacy of Religion or God/Allah - rather, probing the quality of "human inquiry" and determining, if what's proffered as "universal truth", is true or false.

The Holy Books are sources of revelation of human imagination written as God's will. However, the Holy Books' knowledge doesn't extend beyond the earth - they do have details of the Hereafter as universal truth, but what humans see as evidence, is the earth and stars as documented in scriptures.

This is why believers easily attach miracles of God to what can be evidently seen (earth) than to abstractions that can't be seen, but hoped for (Heaven/,Paradise).

The path to the supposed Paradise, remain the Holy Books - but little do we know, the Books actually offer a short view lense of the entire universe and beyond, as understood in biblical proses.

It's understood, humans must believe in something - but reasonable belief is advised. Some may say, "It's better to stand for something than nothing" - but more concretely, I would suggest, "stand akimbo in the midst of several uncertainties".

In relation to "first principles" that you highlighted, the above submission, deconstructs the validity of religious principles and emphasis of resurrection, judgment, accountability, and a transformed existence.

Whilst you strongly uphold the morals and principles of the Hereafter using Islamic understanding, it's pertinent, that over-reliance on faith - do not permit a reduction in the quality of human living that free-will offers man-kind on earth for the ultimate sake of everlasting life.

As you have defended, Allah is not a God of coercion.

honesttalk21:
Well thank you but I am not in position to see myself as good. I think we've moved beyond simply defending positions and are now examining first principles, which is a more fruitful discussion.
From the Islamic perspective, I would not begin by assuming that everyone in the hereafter becomes part of a single, identical class of spirits. The Qur'an does not describe the afterlife in those terms. Rather, it emphasizes resurrection, judgment, accountability, and a transformed existence decreed by Allah. While that existence differs from earthly life, the Qur'an does not present it as dissolving all distinctions into one uniform spiritual nature.
Also, Allah's foreknowledge and decree should not be confused with coercion. His eternal knowledge encompasses every human choice, and nothing occurs outside his decree, yet the Qur'an consistently holds people responsible for what they freely choose. The test is therefore not for Allah to discover anything since he already knows all things but for his justice to be manifested through deeds that creatures themselves willingly perform. Divine knowledge explains why Allah's judgment is perfect; it does not negate the reality of moral responsibility.
For the same reason, the permanence of Paradise is not explained by its inhabitants becoming incapable of choice because they have become spirits. Rather, Allah has completed their trial, purified their hearts, removed every inclination toward sin and resentment, and promised them everlasting security. Their eternal obedience is therefore the fulfillment of Allah's perfect decree and justice, not the loss of meaningful personhood or the reduction of all beings to a single spiritual nature.

On the contrary, I do not cover for Religions - but if a Religion makes a realistic claim, it will be supported.

The Matthew 28:18-19 you highlighted, suggest "passive-extremism" as you earlier condemned in Islam.

To rule over the world means, the use of force or fear tactics, to win disciples.

In the earlier times, "force" was the mantra of Christians as learnt from the Jew execution story.

Today, it's "fear tactics" . If you are not a Christian or a Muslim, either party would instill fear in you and pressure you into a belief.

More interestingly, you affirm JW members don't comment on political matters on platforms.

Not just that - your organization doesn't participate in social activities like parties, recitation of national anthems etcetera.

That's ideological-extremism, even though it affects no one and it's non of anyone's business.

Simple suggestion: participate in the politics and government of your supposed Kingdom, for that's the way to preserve it for the everlasting life.

No government, then no world, no everlasting life.

MaxInDHouse:
I showed you what Muhammad said yet you want to cover up for this FALSE RELIGION. Muhammad said there is no assurance for Muslims including himself so what CONFIDENCE do you want to give his followers?
Whether you believe or not Jesus said:

“All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth. Go, therefore, and make disciples of people of all the nations" Matthew 28:18-19

Guy abeg stop deceiving yourself!🥱


Regarding Jehovah's Witnesses Jesus said:

"They are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world." John 17:16

You can search Nairaland to see if any member of Jehovah's Witnesses make any comment on the politics section.
We only hope in God's kingdom and that is the only government we preach about or in other words campaign for! Matthew 10:7

kayjordan:
On the contrary, I do not cover for Religions - but if a Religion makes a realistic claim, it will be supported.

So what EVIDENCE does agnostics and Muslims have regarding life after death?

Note that Muhammad had no such evidence and agnostics said they aren't sure if God exists or not!🙂

Don't get me wrong.

Both Religions or faith offer no evidence other than hope.

What I meant by claim, is if one Religion promotes for example, "peace" - then it will be supported - or if one promotes "respect of boundaries", it will be supported as well.

MaxInDHouse:
So what EVIDENCE does agnostics and Muslims have regarding life after death?

Note that Muhammad had no such evidence and agnostics said they aren't sure if God exists or not!🙂

kayjordan:
Both Religions or faith offer no evidence other than hope.

What hope?🙂

A religion that says God exists keeps on hating, fighting and killing themselves over issues they claim their God will settle/judge in the day of judgement.

So how do you convince any normal human that such people have hope?🥱

I think we've now moved from discussing what Islam teaches to a broader question of how human beings can know anything beyond empirical observation. That's an important distinction.

From the Islamic perspective, knowledge is not confined to what can be directly measured or observed. Even in everyday life, we accept many truths through reason, reliable testimony, and inference rather than personal experience. The Qur'an presents revelation and reason as complementary, not competing. It repeatedly invites us to reflect on the created world as signs pointing to the Creator, while making clear that the unseen cannot be reached through unaided human inquiry alone.

This is also where miracles fit into the Islamic worldview. They are not presented as irrational interruptions of nature but as divine signs authenticating Allah's messengers. Their purpose is not simply to inspire wonder but to establish that the message truly comes from Allah. Once that foundation is established, knowledge of realities beyond observation, such as resurrection, judgment, Paradise, Hell, and the Hereafter, is accepted because it comes from the One who knows them directly, not because human beings discovered them through speculation. The observable world itself is also a sign of Allah's power. Miracles are not the only signs. They uniquely authenticate His messengers, while creation continually points to its Creator.

At the same time, Islam does not encourage a continual search for miracles. The Prophet peace and blessings of Allah be upon him taught that his enduring miracle was the Qur'an itself. As he said, every prophet was given signs by which people believed, but what he was given was revelation from Allah, and he hoped thereby to have the greatest following on the Day of Resurrection. Not stating miracles weren't performed by him. In other words, miracles establish the credibility of the messenger. Enduring faith rests upon the revelation that follows.

So Islam does not ask people to replace reason with blind faith. Rather, it teaches that reason is indispensable but limited. It enables us to assess evidence, weigh testimony, and recognize truth, but it cannot independently answer every question about reality. Revelation does not compete with reason. It completes what reason, by itself, cannot reach.

I think this also identifies where our approaches differ. Your argument appears to begin by treating revelation as a product of human imagination unless there is sufficient reason to conclude otherwise. Islam begins with a different question. Does a claimed revelation bear the marks of a divine source? If it does, then what it says about the unseen is no longer human speculation but knowledge disclosed by the Creator. The real discussion, therefore, is not whether human reason alone can reach beyond the universe. We both agree it cannot. The question is whether Allah has truly spoken.

Belief in the Hereafter is not meant to diminish the value of life on earth. The Qur'an rejects that false choice. It commands believers to seek the Hereafter without neglecting their share of this world (28:77), to pray for good in this world and good in the Hereafter (2:201), and to pursue justice, knowledge, honest work, family, charity, and excellence in character. Earthly life is therefore not an obstacle to the Hereafter. It is the very arena in which faith is lived, character is formed, and our response to Allah is made manifest.

kayjordan:
You are welcome!

I acknowledge the absolutism of Qur'an's truth. On a different account, the knowledge of God/Allah falls within our human judgment and understanding - and we are limited by nature to know what can be known.

Our scope of human reasoning doesn't extend beyond the universe therefore, any knowledge we create about the "beyond" becomes fantasy.

This isn't discrediting the legitimacy of Religion or God/Allah - rather, probing the quality of "human inquiry" and determining, if what's proffered as "universal truth", is true or false.

The Holy Books are sources of revelation of human imagination written as God's will. However, the Holy Books' knowledge doesn't extend beyond the earth - they do have details of the Hereafter as universal truth, but what humans see as evidence, is the earth and stars as documented in scriptures.

This is why believers easily attach miracles of God to what can be evidently seen (earth) than to abstractions that can't be seen, but hoped for (Heaven/,Paradise).

The path to the supposed Paradise, remain the Holy Books - but little do we know, the Books actually offer a short view lense of the entire universe and beyond, as understood in biblical proses.

It's understood, humans must believe in something - but reasonable belief is advised. Some may say, "It's better to stand for something than nothing" - but more concretely, I would suggest, "stand akimbo in the midst of several uncertainties".

In relation to "first principles" that you highlighted, the above submission, deconstructs the validity of religious principles and emphasis of resurrection, judgment, accountability, and a transformed existence.

Whilst you strongly uphold the morals and principles of the Hereafter using Islamic understanding, it's pertinent, that over-reliance on faith - do not permit a reduction in the quality of human living that free-will offers man-kind on earth for the ultimate sake of everlasting life.

As you have defended, Allah is not a God of coercion.

People belonging to the same religion fighting each other does not, by itself, tell us whether that religion is true or false. Human beings often fail to live up to the very beliefs they claim to hold. History is full of conflicts not only between different religions, but also within the same religion, political movement, or even the same family. That says more about human nature than it does about the truth of a belief.

The same applies when comparing one religious community with another. One group may appear more peaceful than another at a given time, but that is a historical observation, not proof that its beliefs are true. People's actions and a religion's teachings are related, but they are not identical.

Islam, in fact, discourages believers from becoming self assured about their own salvation. The Prophet pbuh said, None of you will enter Paradise by his deeds alone. When asked if that included him, he replied, Not even me, unless Allah covers me with His mercy. The Qur'an also instructs him to say, I only follow what is revealed to me...(46:9). The point is not uncertainty about Allah's promises, but humility before Him. No one earns Paradise as a right or can place Allah in their debt.

At the same time, the Qur'an repeatedly commands faith, prayer, charity, honesty, patience, and every form of righteous living, while promising reward for those who strive. These are not contradictory ideas. Good deeds matter because Allah commands them and rewards them, but the reward itself remains an act of His mercy, not something He owes anyone.

So the real question is not whether every person who identifies with a religion consistently lives by its teachings. No community can honestly claim to live up to its teachings perfectly. The more important question is whether the religion itself is true and whether its teachings are sound. The shortcomings of its followers may tell us something about people, but they do not, by themselves, settle the truth of the faith they profess.

GOD is the supreme being so whoever believes in God will surrender to God's judgement but if anyone refuses to do this it simply means he doesn't truly believe in God therefore the true religion that he practices shouldn't permit him to play any key role since he is not a believer.

That is the difference between true and false religion because in false religions such individuals are allowed to continue serving as bonafide members but in true religion such ones will be sanctioned showing he is spiritually sick hence all members are warned never to follow his footstep! Matthew 18:15-17, Romans 16:17; 2John 10-11🙂

Knowledge is a complex archive of human thoughts be it reason, imagination, facts or revelation. Reason and revelation complement indeed, but the function of revelation is to fill gaps of knowledge, than provide a concrete filler. Reason of empiricism and observation, provides those concrete fillers.

The "observation world" serving as evidence of Allah's power is also a speculation that contradicts your earlier denial of speculation of Allah's promises. Declaring the earth as a sign of Allah's miracle, creates a confusion between an observed fact and illusion. It safer to assume no ownership claim of universal elements than be definite.

Miracles of God/Allah, establishes what I refer to as "image" of the messager, rather than his credibility. If faith rests upon the revelation of Allah, then it's an expectation called "faith". Establishing the revelation is achievable with the faithful, but the everlasting life which is a product of revelation, remain questionable, particularly, when the actual result is deemed a fallacy than a true manifestation afterward.

I agree, reason should not be replaced with blind faith, for reason, represents objectivity and blind faith only encourages, the promotion of false prophets.

Revelation should not compete with reason, but should complete it - is strong words of wisdom from your submission, however knowledge can never be completed nor replaced with imagination.

The question of if Allah has spoken, requires a question to answer it. The appropriate question would be, - "are mere men, the Allah we speak of?"

honesttalk21:
I think we've now moved from discussing what Islam teaches to a broader question of how human beings can know anything beyond empirical observation. That's an important distinction.

From the Islamic perspective, knowledge is not confined to what can be directly measured or observed. Even in everyday life, we accept many truths through reason, reliable testimony, and inference rather than personal experience. The Qur'an presents revelation and reason as complementary, not competing. It repeatedly invites us to reflect on the created world as signs pointing to the Creator, while making clear that the unseen cannot be reached through unaided human inquiry alone.

This is also where miracles fit into the Islamic worldview. They are not presented as irrational interruptions of nature but as divine signs authenticating Allah's messengers. Their purpose is not simply to inspire wonder but to establish that the message truly comes from Allah. Once that foundation is established, knowledge of realities beyond observation, such as resurrection, judgment, Paradise, Hell, and the Hereafter, is accepted because it comes from the One who knows them directly, not because human beings discovered them through speculation. The observable world itself is also a sign of Allah's power. Miracles are not the only signs. They uniquely authenticate His messengers, while creation continually points to its Creator.

At the same time, Islam does not encourage a continual search for miracles. The Prophet peace and blessings of Allah be upon him taught that his enduring miracle was the Qur'an itself. As he said, every prophet was given signs by which people believed, but what he was given was revelation from Allah, and he hoped thereby to have the greatest following on the Day of Resurrection. Not stating miracles weren't performed by him. In other words, miracles establish the credibility of the messenger. Enduring faith rests upon the revelation that follows.

So Islam does not ask people to replace reason with blind faith. Rather, it teaches that reason is indispensable but limited. It enables us to assess evidence, weigh testimony, and recognize truth, but it cannot independently answer every question about reality. Revelation does not compete with reason. It completes what reason, by itself, cannot reach.

I think this also identifies where our approaches differ. Your argument appears to begin by treating revelation as a product of human imagination unless there is sufficient reason to conclude otherwise. Islam begins with a different question. Does a claimed revelation bear the marks of a divine source? If it does, then what it says about the unseen is no longer human speculation but knowledge disclosed by the Creator. The real discussion, therefore, is not whether human reason alone can reach beyond the universe. We both agree it cannot. The question is whether Allah has truly spoken.

Belief in the Hereafter is not meant to diminish the value of life on earth. The Qur'an rejects that false choice. It commands believers to seek the Hereafter without neglecting their share of this world (28:77), to pray for good in this world and good in the Hereafter (2:201), and to pursue justice, knowledge, honest work, family, charity, and excellence in character. Earthly life is therefore not an obstacle to the Hereafter. It is the very arena in which faith is lived, character is formed, and our response to Allah is made manifest.

This is a classic piece of human nature vs morality.

If people's actions and a religion's teachings are related but not identical, it means there a exist a fine line between realism and spirituality. The relationship between both concepts is the "earth".

"Islam, in fact, discourages believers from becoming self assured about their own salvation" - is quoted from your submission. The moral question is:

"Why should believers of Allah be faithful and as well, be doubtful?" -

Even if all believers labor to secure salvation, their hard labor is likely to become a gamble at a casino of falsehood than an actual assurance of salvation.

honesttalk21:
People belonging to the same religion fighting each other does not, by itself, tell us whether that religion is true or false. Human beings often fail to live up to the very beliefs they claim to hold. History is full of conflicts not only between different religions, but also within the same religion, political movement, or even the same family. That says more about human nature than it does about the truth of a belief.

The same applies when comparing one religious community with another. One group may appear more peaceful than another at a given time, but that is a historical observation, not proof that its beliefs are true. People's actions and a religion's teachings are related, but they are not identical.

Islam, in fact, discourages believers from becoming self assured about their own salvation. The Prophet pbuh said, None of you will enter Paradise by his deeds alone. When asked if that included him, he replied, Not even me, unless Allah covers me with His mercy. The Qur'an also instructs him to say, I only follow what is revealed to me...(46:9). The point is not uncertainty about Allah's promises, but humility before Him. No one earns Paradise as a right or can place Allah in their debt.

At the same time, the Qur'an repeatedly commands faith, prayer, charity, honesty, patience, and every form of righteous living, while promising reward for those who strive. These are not contradictory ideas. Good deeds matter because Allah commands them and rewards them, but the reward itself remains an act of His mercy, not something He owes anyone.

So the real question is not whether every person who identifies with a religion consistently lives by its teachings. No community can honestly claim to live up to its teachings perfectly. The more important question is whether the religion itself is true and whether its teachings are sound. The shortcomings of its followers may tell us something about people, but they do not, by themselves, settle the truth of the faith they profess.

That conviction is up to the said Religion to defend.

MaxInDHouse:
What hope?🙂

A religion that says God exists keeps on hating, fighting and killing themselves over issues they claim their God will settle/judge in the day of judgement.

So how do you convince any normal human that such people have hope?🥱

If any believer doesn't practise what the true religion preaches and is rejected by the true religion - the world will accept him.

This creates a pointer: If Jehovah's Witnesses' eternal place is earth, strong possibilities exist that the true God, may have rejected them and confined them to the earth till eternity.

Also, bear in mind that God threw Lucifer out of Heaven down the path of earth and Hell in eternal condemnation.

Now the same Lucifer (Satan), has two eternal home addresses; Hell and Earth.

How do you react?

MaxInDHouse:
GOD is the supreme being so whoever believes in God will surrender to God's judgement but if anyone refuses to do this it simply means he doesn't truly believe in God therefore the true religion that he practices shouldn't permit him to play any key role since he is not a believer.

That is the difference between true and false religion because in false religions such individuals are allowed to continue serving as bonafide members but in true religion such ones will be sanctioned showing he is spiritually sick hence all members are warned never to follow his footstep! Matthew 18:15-17, Romans 16:17; 2John 10-11🙂

Seemingly your question assumes Islam asks believers to live in doubt, but that's not quite the case. Islam teaches confidence in Allah's promise while encouraging humility about ourselves.
A believer trusts that Allah never breaks His promise, but also recognizes that no one can honestly claim to have done enough to deserve Paradise on their own. That isn't uncertainty about Allah. It's honesty about ourselves. So the balance Islam teaches is simple; place your confidence in Allah's mercy, not in your own deeds. That's not a gamble. It's the difference between trusting the One who judges perfectly and trusting yourself.

kayjordan:
This is a classic piece of human nature vs morality.

If people's actions and a religion's teachings are related but not identical, it means there a exist a fine line between realism and spirituality. The relationship between both concepts is the "earth".

"Islam, in fact, discourages believers from becoming self assured about their own salvation" - is quoted from your submission. The moral question is:

"Why should believers of Allah be faithful and as well, be doubtful?" -

Even if all believers labor to secure salvation, their hard labor is likely to become a gamble at a casino of falsehood than an actual assurance of salvation.

Again you move us closer to the real point of disagreement, and that's good. From the Islamic perspective, revelation doesn't replace reason or scientific inquiry, and it certainly doesn't ask us to confuse observation with imagination. When the Qur'an points to creation as a sign of Allah, it isn't saying the universe is itself a miracle in the technical sense. It's inviting us to reflect on the fact that the universe exists, follows consistent laws, and is understandable. From an Islamic perspective, those observations naturally lead us to ask whether they point beyond themselves to a Creator. That also answers the point about speculation. Saying the universe points to a Creator is reasoning from what we can observe. It isn't the same as claiming we've observed Paradise or the Hereafter. One is an inference from evidence before us, while the other depends on whether revelation is truly from Allah. They are different kinds of claims.

You also suggest that miracles establish only a messenger's image, not his credibility. From the Islamic perspective, the two cannot be separated. A miracle is not presented as a performance to impress people, but as a sign accompanying the claim that the message is from Allah. At the same time, Islam does not ask people to accept every extraordinary claim at face value. The claim is considered alongside the messenger's character, the consistency of his message, the nature of the sign itself, and whether the whole body of evidence points to a divine source. A sign is therefore part of the evidence, not the entire case.

This is why Islam doesn't ask anyone to believe in the Hereafter simply because they hope it's true. It first asks a more fundamental question as has Allah truly spoken through His messenger? If the answer is yes, then trusting what that messenger says about the unseen follows naturally. If the answer is no, then there is no reason to accept the claim.

Your last question, "Are mere men the Allah we speak of?" actually brings us back to that very point. Islam's answer has always been no. The Prophet pbuh is believed not because he was more than human, but because the evidence points to him as a man entrusted with a message that was not his own. In the end, that is where the discussion really rests. If his claim to revelation fails, Islam falls with it. If it stands, then what he teaches about the unseen is accepted not because a man imagined it, but because Allah revealed it through him.

kayjordan:
Knowledge is a complex archive of human thoughts be it reason, imagination, facts or revelation. Reason and revelation complement indeed, but the function of revelation is to fill gaps of knowledge, than provide a concrete filler. Reason of empiricism and observation, provides those concrete fillers.

The "observation world" serving as evidence of Allah's power is also a speculation that contradicts your earlier denial of speculation of Allah's promises. Declaring the earth as a sign of Allah's miracle, creates a confusion between an observed fact and illusion. It safer to assume no ownership claim of universal elements than be definite.

Miracles of God/Allah, establishes what I refer to as "image" of the messager, rather than his credibility. If faith rests upon the revelation of Allah, then it's an expectation called "faith". Establishing the revelation is achievable with the faithful, but the everlasting life which is a product of revelation, remain questionable, particularly, when the actual result is deemed a fallacy than a true manifestation afterward.

I agree, reason should not be replaced with blind faith, for reason, represents objectivity and blind faith only encourages, the promotion of false prophets.

Revelation should not compete with reason, but should complete it - is strong words of wisdom from your submission, however knowledge can never be completed nor replaced with imagination.

The question of if Allah has spoken, requires a question to answer it. The appropriate question would be, - "are mere men, the Allah we speak of?"

kayjordan:
That conviction is up to the said Religion to defend.

That is why i said
"stop defending false religions"

I'm showing you how to unravel the lies false religions are using to blindfold people instead of you to call them out to come and defend their religion you are here making excuses for them!🥱

kayjordan:
If any believer doesn't practise what the true religion preaches and is rejected by the true religion - the world will accept him. This creates a pointer: If Jehovah's Witnesses' eternal place is earth, strong possibilities exist that the true God, may have rejected them and confined them to the earth till eternity.

You haven't been following at all!😟

Earth is where God created for humans so it's our permanent abode! Psalms 37:29; 115:16

What God promised us is that all those making the planet uninhabitable will be destroyed. Psalms 37:9-11; Proverbs 2:20-22

So open your mind's eyes and see.
God never created heaven for humans so i'm not interested in going there!🥱

kayjordan:
Also, bear in mind that God threw Lucifer out of Heaven down the path of earth and Hell in eternal condemnation. Now the same Lucifer (Satan), has two eternal home addresses; Hell and Earth. How do you react?

It's Jesus who drove Satan out of heaven when he started ruling he is the same person called Michael. Revelation 12:7-12
Satan will be completely destroyed that is when God will declare everlasting blessings on all inhabitants of planet earth. Revelation 21:3-4
So Satan won't be here forever in fact he knew he has short time remaining before his complete destruction!

On this account be glad, you heavens and you who reside in them! Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to you, having great anger, knowing that he has a short period of time. Revelation 12:12

Satan is desperately seeking ways to make people hate people and destroy themselves through politics because he knew God is sending Jesus to kill him and all those following him!

Confidence is CERTAINTY. Believers trust a Perfect being would offer deserved salvation, but you further assume believers should continue to render trust services to a Supreme being regardless if the reward is reciprocated to them or not.

Even the good deeds of man are no absolute guarantee in your context, as Prophet Muhammed himself was not sure of Allah's predicted mercy.

Nevertheless, man must tow similar path of labor and good deeds and be expectant of nothing if ever so - and must continue to have faith in Allah.

Certainly, the expectation of Allah is a probability than an absolute declaration. It's 50/50 chance.

It's better one trusts one's instinct that is predictable than to trust a Perfection that is unpredictable.

honesttalk21:
Seemingly your question assumes Islam asks believers to live in doubt, but that's not quite the case. Islam teaches confidence in Allah's promise while encouraging humility about ourselves.
A believer trusts that Allah never breaks His promise, but also recognizes that no one can honestly claim to have done enough to deserve Paradise on their own. That isn't uncertainty about Allah. It's honesty about ourselves. So the balance Islam teaches is simple; place your confidence in Allah's mercy, not in your own deeds. That's not a gamble. It's the difference between trusting the One who judges perfectly and trusting yourself.

Fundamentally, why should a Prophet's claim to revelation and his teachings become a yardstick for Allah's integrity?

If a Prophet represents the image of Allah at all times, it safe to assume, Allah is an actual man himself or better still, a product of men's ideological creation for self purpose.

Allah is said not to faulter, but mere men faulter and are entrusted with Allah's word...

In a simplified sense, the concept of Allah cannot be convincing enough with a continuous trail of imaginative attempts.

In short: Islam is "only" a disciplinary course-study and not necessarily a spiritual religion in the actual sense in my candid opinion.

honesttalk21:
Again you move us closer to the real point of disagreement, and that's good. From the Islamic perspective, revelation doesn't replace reason or scientific inquiry, and it certainly doesn't ask us to confuse observation with imagination. When the Qur'an points to creation as a sign of Allah, it isn't saying the universe is itself a miracle in the technical sense. It's inviting us to reflect on the fact that the universe exists, follows consistent laws, and is understandable. From an Islamic perspective, those observations naturally lead us to ask whether they point beyond themselves to a Creator. That also answers the point about speculation. Saying the universe points to a Creator is reasoning from what we can observe. It isn't the same as claiming we've observed Paradise or the Hereafter. One is an inference from evidence before us, while the other depends on whether revelation is truly from Allah. They are different kinds of claims.

You also suggest that miracles establish only a messenger's image, not his credibility. From the Islamic perspective, the two cannot be separated. A miracle is not presented as a performance to impress people, but as a sign accompanying the claim that the message is from Allah. At the same time, Islam does not ask people to accept every extraordinary claim at face value. The claim is considered alongside the messenger's character, the consistency of his message, the nature of the sign itself, and whether the whole body of evidence points to a divine source. A sign is therefore part of the evidence, not the entire case.

This is why Islam doesn't ask anyone to believe in the Hereafter simply because they hope it's true. It first asks a more fundamental question as has Allah truly spoken through His messenger? If the answer is yes, then trusting what that messenger says about the unseen follows naturally. If the answer is no, then there is no reason to accept the claim.

Your last question, "Are mere men the Allah we speak of?" actually brings us back to that very point. Islam's answer has always been no. The Prophet pbuh is believed not because he was more than human, but because the evidence points to him as a man entrusted with a message that was not his own. In the end, that is where the discussion really rests. If his claim to revelation fails, Islam falls with it. If it stands, then what he teaches about the unseen is accepted not because a man imagined it, but because Allah revealed it through him.

Imagination can't unravel further Imagination, because yours is yet to be unraveled.

In my entire exchange, I've been on the offensive attacking all spiritual faith including yours.

MaxInDHouse:
That is why i said
"stop defending false religions"

I'm showing you how to unravel the lies false religions are using to blindfold people instead of you to call them out to come and defend their religion you are here making excuses for them!🥱

Out of curiosity, how old is Satan now?

MaxInDHouse:
You haven't been following at all!😟

Earth is where God created for humans so it's our permanent abode! Psalms 37:29; 115:16

What God promised us is that all those making the planet uninhabitable will be destroyed. Psalms 37:9-11; Proverbs 2:20-22

So open your mind's eyes and see.
God never created heaven for humans so i'm not interested in going there!🥱


It's Jesus who drove Satan out of heaven when he started ruling he is the same person called Michael. Revelation 12:7-12
Satan will be completely destroyed that is when God will declare everlasting blessings on all inhabitants of planet earth. Revelation 21:3-4
So Satan won't be here forever in fact he knew he has short time remaining before his complete destruction!

On this account be glad, you heavens and you who reside in them! Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to you, having great anger, knowing that he has a short period of time. Revelation 12:12

Satan is desperately seeking ways to make people hate people and destroy themselves through politics because he knew God is sending Jesus to kill him and all those following him!

kayjordan:
Imagination can't unravel further Imagination, because yours is yet to be unraveled.

I have shown you the reason why God established the true religion and how things have worked out so far i don't think there is anything left unless you just want to justify your unbelief!

kayjordan:
In my entire exchange, I've been on the offensive attacking all spiritual faith including yours.

So attack all and let each religion put up a defense for their faith not you doing it for them!🥱[/quote]

kayjordan:
Out of curiosity, how old is Satan now?

Satan is not his name that was the title given to him after he resisted his maker so if we are to talk about when he was created we will say he is as old as other angels except Michael (Jesus) who has been with his father longer than other angels. But if we are to talk about when he became Satan then that will be approximately 10,000 years or less.

That's what I've been justifying all along - my unbelief.

I didn't defend any religion. I only picked some of the claims they made as realistic and discarded the rest.

My justification remains: belief, God, ideas and theories are man-made thoughts, humans created and reinterpreted over many years.

People have been configured with these ideas through storytelling and people have adjusted to these ideas to the point that it's become a way of life - and so difficult to depart from them.

Once a child gets taught these ideas at a formative age, and grow up with an ideology, it becomes difficult to change that child.

That's why children believe God created the earth, and when they do grow up, they honestly believe God created the earth.

But when people make a quest, they get an opportunity to come out of their shells and explore religions and learn more - not just religion, but science as well.

MaxInDHouse:
I have shown you the reason why God established the true religion and how things have worked out so far i don't think there is anything left unless you just want to justify your unbelief!


So attack all and let each religion put up a defense for their faith not you doing it for them!🥱

kayjordan:
That's what I've been justifying all along - my unbelief.
belief, God, ideas and theories are man-made thoughts, humans created and reinterpreted over many years.

Good so it's OK that you choose never to believe while my brothers and sisters throughout the earth believe.

Everything has benefits so continue enjoying the benefits of your unbelief while we continue to enjoy the benefits of our beliefs!🙂