When discussing religion, I find it interesting how even the
most thoughtful and carefully-argued apologetic eventually
comes down to simple, blind faith. However many clever
arguments and justifications the believer puts forward,
sooner or later there comes a point where those
arguments have to be reasoned from first principles, and
the first step, the basis of all subsequent beliefs, is reached
from reasoning which more or less amounts to “just
because”.
There’s not necessarily anything wrong with that –
ultimately, we all have to begin with unprovable axioms, even
if they’re almost universally agreed, or appear self-evident.
For example, I believe that the laws of physics are
consistent throughout space and time, that other people
really exist and aren’t figments of my imagination, and that
the universe didn’t spring into existence last night, with the
whole of history and everyone’s memories created at the
same time. They all seem like pretty reasonable conclusions
to me, but even so, there’s no way of proving them.
So I don’t have any problem with unprovable axioms
(except that they’re a frustrating roadblock if you’re
interested in watertight logic), but I think – even though I
can’t prove it – that they make more sense in some
situations than others.
What prompted me to write this post is a discussion about
the problem of suffering. It all followed the usual pattern,
with back and forth between some people pointing to
examples of suffering and other people trying to find
reasons why an omniscient, omnipotent and omnibenevolent
deity might allow them to happen, and lots of debate about
the logical consistency of the various arguments. Eventually,
the apologetic argument generally came down to a belief
that there must be a reason, even if it wasn’t obvious what
that was, because God wouldn’t allow it otherwise.
It struck me that this is very similar to when Christians try
to justify genocide in the Bible. Most people, if faced with
evidence that God allowed or – worse – ordered vile acts
like this, would conclude that either the evidence was wrong
or God is a monster. But there are some who attempt to
redefine their terms – if God does it, it’s clearly not so bad,
or it is bad if we do it but the rules don’t apply to Him, or
even that His victims were asking for it – not an argument
with a particularly distinguished history, regardless of its
merits in this case.
Similarly, Christians generally end up acknowledging that
there is suffering, but rather than amending their
speculative, unprovable view of God (i.e. that He’s
omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent) they suggest
that He must have a reason for allowing suffering, even if
we can’t know it. To me, this looks uncannily like Stockholm
Syndrome. However unpleasant or abusive God must be if
their beliefs are correct, and however responsible He is for
their current suffering, they still want to justify His actions
and excuse His crimes. They believe He could stop all their
suffering, they know He doesn’t, but nevertheless, He must
be a nice guy and have His reasons.
Alternatively, why not try Battered person syndrome on for
size, to explain why Christians continue to worship a God
who, if He exists and has anything like the power they
believe, looks very much like a serial abuser. Have a look at
these common beliefs and attitudes:
Additionally, repeated cycles of violence and
reconciliation can result in the following
beliefs and attitudes:
The abused believes that the violence
was his or her fault.
The abused has an inability to place the
responsibility for the violence elsewhere.
The abused fears for his/her life and/or
the lives of his/her children (if present).
The abused has an irrational belief that
the abuser is omnipresent and
omniscient.
With very minor changes, that looks to me like a perfect
description of Christian belief: We’re all sinners, which is
why there’s suffering in the world. God can’t force
unregenerate sinners to change, or to love Him. If we don’t
do the right things and plead with the abuser, He’ll condemn
us to hell not just in this life, but for all eternity. And point 4
speaks for itself.
Maybe atheists should be setting up shelters for battered
believers.

very insightful....

And the fact none of them is actually certain about all this and they only believe with faith is very saddening....
It is a very psychological abuse that can be termed evil when contrasted to the universal goodness

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Woe unto him that strives with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioned it, What make thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?

Woe unto him that says to his father. What did you beget? or to the woman, What have you brought forth?

Isaiah 45:7,9 $ 10.

Am sorry very sorry....for you if you do not know God.

You keep arguing against his existence and sovereignty, proud fools! yes i said fools. That's the common name for those who say everything came to be without anything causing them to be.

The reason you keep debating over "common sense" issues is because that's the only way you are kept bound from truth.

I hate the bandwagon of fools#

An2elect2:
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Woe unto him that strives with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioned it, What make thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?

Woe unto him that says to his father. What did you beget? or to the woman, What have you brought forth?

Isaiah 45:7,9 $ 10.

Am sorry very sorry....for you if you do not know God.

You keep arguing against his existence and sovereignty, proud fools! yes i said fools. That's the common name for those who say everything came to be without anything causing them to be.

The reason you keep debating over "common sense" issues is because that's the only way you are kept bound from truth.

I hate the bandwagon of fools#

1) You cannot prove the existence of the bible god with the bible.

2) I am not arguing with anyone. I used to do that in my earlier atheistic days..I'm above that now, except when unavoidably necessary. I was just replying some of the assertions made in cococandy's thread about being angry at god.

3) You don't have the right to call anyone a fool. Rule 2. Cease and desist.

Zikdik:

1) You cannot prove the existence of the bible god with the bible.

2) I am not arguing with anyone. I used to do that in my earlier atheistic days..I'm above that now, except when unavoidably necessary. I was just replying some of the assertions made in cococandy's thread about being angry at god.

3) You don't have the right to call anyone a fool. Rule 2. Cease and desist.

I have no time to argue(either) with atheists, i just spill out the truth out there for them whether they take it or leave it.

You don't need special revelation to know that there are proofs of God's existence.

You don't find a well organised and tidied room in a lone place and assume it got organised by itself or things just got themselves together. This is common sense. Someone did that! A fool lacks this sense

Am a Christian who submits totally to the authority of the bible and it is recorded in this book that you and your atheists friends are fools. And i believe that you are!

Its far better to know what is waiting for you in the great beyond than pass on with tormenting fear of the unknown#

An2elect2:


I have no time to argue(either) with atheists, i just spill out the truth out there for them whether they take it or leave it.

Ok just to be clear, i am not here to argue either

An2elect2:

You don't need special revelation to know that there are proofs of God's existence.

You don't find a well organised and tidied room in a lone place and assume it got organised by itself or things just got themselves together. This is common sense. Someone did that! A fool lacks this sense

This is not evidence that superntural spiritual being brought the world to being... I don't claim to know how the world came to be even you cannot boast to possess this knowledge..That we do not know how it happened doesnt entail we should come up with something absurd as a spirit being did it ...You just believe the christian God did it cus you are a christian, same way the muslims believe theirs did it too, same goes to the greeks believe zeus did...now which of this gods actually did it and why do you think it is that particular god and not the others?
Taking from your logic since nothing cant come out of nothing it must need a god, then god must also have been created by another god and then another god the chain goes on and on.

An2elect2:

Am a Christian who submits totally to the authority of the bible and it is recorded in this book that you and your atheists friends are fools. And i believe that you are!

Even though half of the bible is just jewish history, fables and myths? should we just subscribe to them without asking questions that we deem necessary? So because this book calls a set of people fools, you label them fools? Cant you for once think independently for yourself without revolving it around an ancient book you dont even know the people that wrote?...Calling someone a fool is a hateful word, and because this ur supposedly holy book propagates this hate it is now incited into you and you exhibit it... so much for morality

An2elect2:

Its far better to know what is waiting for you in the great beyond than pass on with tormenting fear of the unknown#

I take it that religion to you is a means to escape the unknown.
How do you know what is waiting for you in the great beyond?
cus the bible told you, you will get golden mansions and white robes.
The muslims believe they will get virgins because their own holy book told them so...
You term them delusional but yours dont look like delusion to u.
Their is nothing like fear of the unknown, death is final. it is a characteristic of a living thing.
You have this one chance now on earth, make the most of it, wishing for another is greediness

An2elect2:
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Woe unto him that strives with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioned it, What make thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?

Woe unto him that says to his father. What did you beget? or to the woman, What have you brought forth?

Isaiah 45:7,9 $ 10.

Am sorry very sorry....for you if you do not know God.

You keep arguing against his existence and sovereignty, proud fools! yes i said fools. That's the common name for those who say everything came to be without anything causing them to be.

The reason you keep debating over "common sense" issues is because that's the only way you are kept bound from truth.

I hate the bandwagon of fools#

Am Christian and I can tell you,you sound as foolish as what you typed,utterly disgusting statement.

An2elect2:


I have no time to argue(either) with atheists, i just spill out the truth out there for them whether they take it or leave it.

Truths, deal with verified evidence - and bible has none.
The juggernaut that you spilled up there, is nothing but a balderdash coined from delusion grandeur.

You don't need special revelation to know that there are proofs of God's existence.

I, personally, is a deist because I believe there is an existence of supernatural being.
But, what I refuse to believe is biblical & fictional God called Yahweh.... He's heartless, contradictory and claim useless power like Omnipotent, omniscient etc, he doesn't exhibit.

You don't find a well organised and tidied room in a lone place and assume it got organised by itself or things just got themselves together.

But, still yet, you believe that God has no beginning.
He created himself but you don't want to believe that Earth created itself.
Double standard, I tell you.

This is common sense. Someone did that! A fool lacks this sense

A wise man like you still believed that someone didn't create God when your common sense as portrayed by you assumed that something can't create itself. How ironic.
For your information, radioactive emission occurs both naturally and articially.
Naturally, elements creates and breaks by itself - fission & fusion.

Am a Christian who submits totally to the authority of the bible and it is recorded in this book that you and your atheists friends are fools. And i believe that you are!

You can believe whatever you care to, but don't go against Nairaland rule number2.
Muslims believe that Christians are infidel and Alqeda, Isis, bokoharam etc will keep butchering you all, since you are all birds of a feather who believes in anything written somewhere without proof.

Its far better to know what is waiting for you in the great beyond than pass on with tormenting fear of the unknown#

What's more tormenting than Christians and other religious bodies tormenting people with biblical/quaranic eternal damnation and gibberish.
144,000people will make heaven, huh?
72virgins awaits islam faithfuls. Smh

An2elect2:
You don't find a well organised and tidied room in a lone place and assume it got organised by itself or things just got themselves together. This is common sense. Someone did that! A fool lacks this sense

Is that really common sense? For you, the "well organized and tidied room" is just this universe. For us, it also includes any proposed God. With God, a room is even an understatement. What you have is a stupendous car assembly plant (since God is infinitely great! according to you people), and that stands in bigger need of an explanation than a well organized room. Its faith that leads you to God, not common sense.

Since what you wrote is not common sense you are probably a fool. I stand to be corrected.

finofaya:


Is that really common sense? For you, the "well organized and tidied room" is just this universe. For us, it also includes any proposed God. With God, a room is even an understatement. What you have is a stupendous car assembly plant (since God is infinitely great! according to you people), and that stands in bigger need of an explanation than a well organized room. Its faith that leads you to God, not common sense.

Since what you wrote is not common sense you are probably a fool. I stand to be corrected.

The universe in no way is not even well organized...
we have galaxies colliding with the other, asteroids and meteorites battering the planets and some totally annihilating the planet.

the universe is still expanding, so it means the universe is still on its formation process..

Earth is not well organized too... if it is we wouldnt have anything like natural disasters, tonadoes etc that claim millions of life every year.

If a god did this, then it is either that god is a serial killer or no f**king god did it...

johnydon22:

The universe in no way is not even well organized...
we have galaxies colliding with the other, asteroids and meteorites battering the planets and some totally annihilating the planet.

the universe is still expanding, so it means the universe is still on its formation process..

Earth is not well organized too... if it is we wouldnt have anything like natural disasters, tonadoes etc that claim millions of life every year.

If a god did this, then it is either that god is a serial killer or no f**king god did it...

True. The nature of God, if any, is far from settled.

finofaya:


Is that really common sense? For you, the "well organized and tidied room" is just this universe. For us, it also includes any proposed God. With God, a room is even an understatement. What you have is a stupendous car assembly plant (since God is infinitely great! according to you people), and that stands in bigger need of an explanation than a well organized room. Its faith that leads you to God, not common sense.

Since what you wrote is not common sense you are probably a fool. I stand to be corrected.

What i wrote is common sense. So many people will agree with me on this one cos all men have a "sense" of God in them. Only a fool who has been indoctrinated with lies and nonsense will think otherwise. It is sound reason and very logical if we say that the whole universe was made by someone infinite cos a finite being cannot create everything( including things existing before him) it is preposterous! God's infinite nature is beyond what your finite brain can grasp. I can reason that God exists infinitely and never had a beginning but i may not have physical evidence cos its impossible to but the whole universe and everything that i see point to the fact that there is a God.

And for the record i never stated common sense leads to God. If you had read my post well you will see that i said it is lack of common sense to think God does not exist in spite of all evidence around. You are being dishonest if you say there are non.

CyrusXandria:
Am Christian and I can tell you,you sound as foolish as what you typed,utterly disgusting statement.

Wait, you are a Christian? and the only thing you have to contribute is to tell me how i sound? i will not exchange words with you but i challenge you "christian" to come out and prove to all that you are what you say you are.

FrancisTony:

Truths, deal with verified evidence - and bible has none.

The juggernaut that you spilled up there, is nothing but a balderdash coined from delusion grandeur.


I, personally, is a deist because I believe there is an existence of supernatural being.
But, what I refuse to believe is biblical & fictional God called Yahweh.... He's heartless, contradictory and claim useless power like Omnipotent, omniscient etc, he doesn't exhibit.


But, still yet, you believe that God has no beginning.
He created himself but you don't want to believe that Earth created itself.
Double standard, I tell you.


A wise man like you still believed that someone didn't create God when your common sense as portrayed by you assumed that something can't create itself. How ironic.
For your information, radioactive emission occurs both naturally and articially.
Naturally, elements creates and breaks by itself - fission & fusion.


You can believe whatever you care to, but don't go against Nairaland rule number2.
Muslims believe that Christians are infidel and Alqeda, Isis, bokoharam etc will keep butchering you all, since you are all birds of a feather who believes in anything written somewhere without proof.


What's more tormenting than Christians and other religious bodies tormenting people with biblical/quaranic eternal damnation and gibberish.
144,000people will make heaven, huh?
72virgins awaits islam faithfuls. Smh

Whether you like it or not, there is only one holy God and that's the biblical God. Time is too short, and we are not far from meeting Him. My only fear is that you will find out the most important thing in life when is late already.

For the light has come but because men love darkness they wont come to the light for their "works" to be reproved. I seriously hope God grants you mercy and grace through Jesus Christ for your present state is pitiable and tormenting.

I don't have much to say to you anymore as an elect of God, i know whom i have believed.

An2elect2:


Wait, you are a Christian? and the only thing you have to contribute is to tell me how i sound? i will not exchange words with you but i challenge you "christian" to come out and prove to all that you are what you say you are.

Let's beat it Mr whoever you are.Ever read your Bible and see how the Pharisees engaged Jesus.Did you read how he replied them.What exactly have you done to convince these people of the existence of God,how does your post reflect a christian pursuing salvation for unbelievers.

You make any goddamn stupid statement again,I swear,you'll have it big time.

An2elect2:


What i wrote is common sense. So many people will agree with me on this one cos all men have a "sense" of God in them. Only a fool who has been indoctrinated with lies and nonsense will think otherwise. It is sound reason and very logical if we say that the whole universe was made by someone infinite cos a finite being cannot create everything( including things existing before him) it is preposterous! God's infinite nature is beyond what your finite brain can grasp. I can reason that God exists infinitely and never had a beginning but i may not have physical evidence cos its impossible to but the whole universe and everything that i see point to the fact that there is a God.

It is precisely because God is so infinite that he requires an even bigger explanation. If you require an explanation for how my finite brain came to be, then you must require the mother of all explanations for how an infinite brain came about. Perhaps an infinite explanation is even what is actually required, which would explain why there is no end in sight to the explanations for God.

And for the record i never stated common sense leads to God. If you had read my post well you will see that i said it is lack of common sense to think God does not exist in spite of all evidence around. You are being dishonest if you say there are non.

We are saying the same thing. Anyway, I guess we are not here to argue, are we?

CyrusXandria:
Let's beat it Mr whoever you are.Ever read your Bible and see how the Pharisees engaged Jesus.Did you read how he replied them.What exactly have you done to convince these people of the existence of God,how does your post reflect a christian pursuing salvation for unbelievers.

You make any goddamn stupid statement again,I swear,you'll have it big time.

You are so ignorant that am not surprised at your rage. Now, prove me wrong by telling everyone here how Christ replied the pharisees. What bible you reading?

Look, and pay attention i am not here to prove the existence of God to nobody. They have eyes to see the wonders of creation and conscience too! so back off my way "self appointed teacher" you have contributed nothing here only to come at me like a stubborn bull dog.

If the truth i speak is what you call "stupid statement" then hold your tongue so you don't bring wrath upon yourself.

When you foolishly threaten people like the heathens and swear on top of it, you are nothing but a hypocrite who does not practice what he believes!

How can a person as remarkable as the bible God simply appear into existence out of nowhere? Yahweh is too well designed to have sprung into being all by himself. That's like looking at a wristwatch and assuming that it fell out of an active volcano. Who is the f.ool here? I insist that the man had a creator himself.

.

An2elect2:



You are so ignorant that am not surprised at your rage. Now, prove me wrong by telling everyone here how Christ replied the pharisees. What bible you reading?

Look, and pay attention i am not here to prove the existence of God to nobody. They have eyes to see the wonders of creation and conscience too! so back off my way "self appointed teacher" you have contributed nothing here only to come at me like a stubborn bull dog.

If the truth i speak is what you call "stupid statement" then hold your tongue so you don't bring wrath upon yourself.

When you foolishly threaten people like the heathens and swear on top of it, you are nothing but a hypocrite who does not practice what he believes!

There's something humorously true about this lady. When you see a Christian so aggressively passionate and so full of eternal threats when they speak, it is because they have doubts in their head about what claim to profess. The cocksure ones are usually better composed about their crap. Listen to those doubts, dear. Examine Christianity as critically as you would Islam and other belief systems. You would definitely make some interesting discoveries.

Zikdik:

There's something humorously true about this lady. When you see a Christian so aggressively passionate and so full of eternal threats when they speak, it is because they have doubts in their head about what claim to profess. The cocksure ones are usually better composed about their crap. Listen to those doubts, dear. Examine Christianity as critically as you would Islam and other belief systems. You would definitely make some interesting discoveries.

GBam! !


A few decades ago, in the 80s, motherchuch, the Vatican, commissioned a group of Catholic intellectuals to study, research and find better and welltuned intellectual arguments to bolster the rapidly declining faith in christendom.
Well, guess what happened.

After a thorough study and review of scriptures, doctrines and dogmas, the crew rebelled and proposed a radical theology different and opposed to the status quo. They thus became another headache for poor old Motherchurch, who now had the unpleasant problem of keeping these rebels quite, lest their radical theology became another Martin Luther.

The point here being that religion and faith must of necessity remain impervious to critical analysis, otherwise, faith would have a regular ( and unprofitable ) tendency of melting like butter on a hot stove.

An2elect2:
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Woe unto him that strives with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioned it, What make thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?

Woe unto him that says to his father. What did you beget? or to the woman, What have you brought forth?

Isaiah 45:7,9 $ 10.

Am sorry very sorry....for you if you do not know God.

You keep arguing against his existence and sovereignty, proud fools! yes i said fools. That's the common name for those who say everything came to be without anything causing them to be.

The reason you keep debating over "common sense" issues is because that's the only way you are kept bound from truth.

I hate the bandwagon of fools#

So on point. Best post ever seen on this issue.

Zikdik:

There's something humorously true about this lady. When you see a Christian so aggressively passionate and so full of eternal threats when they speak, it is because they have doubts in their head about what claim to profess. The cocksure ones are usually better composed about their crap. Listen to those doubts, dear. Examine Christianity as critically as you would Islam and other belief systems. You would definitely make some interesting discoveries.

You are in a morass where there is no standing.

An2elect2:


You are in a morass where there is no standing.

If you make a claim, you prove it. So, stake your claim and prove it.
You talk very flippantly. Eternity is not a plaything. Our universe has existed for billions of years and that is even not up to a very small fraction of infinity. If my conscious fate in such depended on choosing between the hundreds of thousands of belief systems on earth, don't you think its quite a bloody, callous gamble.
If I decide to be a Christian, and that happens to be the right choice, 1 billion+ Muslims are sure to be subjected to such mind boggling cruelty. If I'm a Muslim, and I'm so lucky as to be correct, 2 billion+ Christians are..doomed. That is not something to talk so delightfully bitter about.
Convince me, bearing in mind how high the stakes are.
Everyone, pay attention.