₦airaland Forum

MizJanet:
From "heaven" you changed to " paradise" , funny enough you called that paradise Third HEAVEN , which means the old testament saints make HEAVEN without your jesus


LIAAAARRRRR! Infact the criminal on Jesus side is also an old testament SAINT ?

MizJanet:
Yes I will bliv if u show me the verse that said " Enoch and Elijah are still coming back to die " .

OLAADEGBU:
So do you now belive he went to paradise ?

You said " OT saints went to paradise, which is in d third HEAVEN" , congrat ! U sucessfully prove that the death of your Jesus is useless, imagine OT saints make heaven without him . Lol no wonder the muslims and jews bash christians.

Questions: how can u claim he died for mankinds sin, since humans made heaven without him dying ?

SINCE THEY MADE HEAVEN WITHOUT HIM, ITS CLEAR HE NEVER DIED FOR THE SIN OF THE OLD SAINTS , SO HOW COULD HE CLAIM HE DIED FOR THE WHOLE WORLD ?

Don't be eristic. Why would the bible have a statement that you made up?

MizJanet:

You said " OT saints went to paradise, which is in d third HEAVEN" , congrat ! U sucessfully prove that the death of your Jesus is useless, imagine OT saints make heaven without him . Lol no wonder the muslims and jews bash christians.

Questions: how can u claim he died for mankinds sin, since humans made heaven without him dying ?

SINCE THEY MADE HEAVEN WITHOUT HIM, ITS CLEAR HE NEVER DIED FOR THE SIN OF THE OLD SAINTS , SO HOW COULD HE CLAIM HE DIED FOR THE WHOLE WORLD ?

Jesus was not teaching that no one had ever gone to heaven before. Obviously, the Old Testament saints had gone to heaven (or paradise) when they died (Mark 12:26-27), and Enoch and Elijah had been taken there without dying (Genesis 5:24; Hebrews 11:5; 2 Kings 2:11). Rather, He was teaching that, of all rabbis, He had the best credentials. Jesus has direct contact with heaven; He is an expert on the subject.

Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/John-3-13.html#ixzz3dsaGBlT1

MizJanet:

YOU ARE NOT NORMAL , arent you the person that MADE IT UP BY saying " Elijah and Enoch will still come back to die" ? In other words ,you are a LIAR , NO BIBLE SUPORT FOR ur HERESY .

OLAADEGBU:
Let me reiterate the suggested answer:





Don't be captious. Read Malachi 4:5-6; Matthew 17:11; Revelation 11:3-12 and see if ya "coconut" head fit carry am

OLAADEGBU:

[size=25]
Enoch and Elijah are still coming back to die [/size] as the two witnesses after the rapture.

MizJanet:
LIAAAARRRRR !

MizJanet:
Why are you so dull ? None of the verses you posted says " Elijah and Enoch are still coming back to die" , just admit you made that shit up . NONE of them say that TRASH .

MizJanet:
LIAAAARRRRR !

davien:
OLAADEGBU is a young earth creationist....if you're familiar with that term then you'd know lying is their hobby...
He no longer consults his bible and meditate on it's word, his god is gotquestions.com or answersingenesis.org (check his profile, it's there)

"Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you" (Matthew 7:6)

OLAADEGBU:
Our Lord Jesus Christ was so much on point when He said the timeless truth on how we should deal with folks such as the above:



They say they don't believe in the existence of God but they spend their lifetime debating about scriptures to their destruction.

davien:
OLAADEGBU is a young earth creationist....if you're familiar with that term then you'd know lying is their hobby...

He no longer consults his bible and meditate on it's word, his god is gotquestions.com or answersingenesis.org (check his profile, it's there)

Alive Into Heaven

"And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven" (2 Kings 2:11)

This remarkable event—the translation of Elijah alive into heaven, without dying—was altogether miraculous, but it really happened! Among other things, it assures us that heaven is a real place in this created universe, for Elijah is still there in his physical body, still alive, to this very day.

The prophet Enoch, who had also served God in a time of deep apostasy, had likewise been taken into heaven without dying (that is, into the “third heaven,” beyond the starry heaven, where God’s throne is), as recorded in Genesis 5:24 and Hebrews 11:5. Enoch’s prophecies, addressed to the entire world of mankind, were given at approximately the midpoint of the period from Adam to Abraham, whereas those of Elijah, addressed only to Israel, were given at essentially the midpoint of the time from Abraham to Christ. Both were caught up alive into heaven before their ministries were finished. It is possible that they will return again to Earth as God’s “two witnesses” who will prophesy to both Jews and Gentiles in the last days (note Malachi 4:5,6; Revelation 11:3–12), then finally to be slain and resurrected.

In any case, there will also be one entire generation of believers who will—like Enoch and Elijah—be caught up alive into heaven. “For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven . . . and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air” (1 Thessalonians 4:16,17).

This could very well be our generation! And, “when He shall appear, we shall be like Him; for we shall see Him as He is” (1 John 3:2). HMM

For more . . . .

malvisguy212:
John 3:13, "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in
heaven."

These words were spoken by Jesus himself at a time when ONLY CHRIST HAD SEEN GOD (John 1:18). And how did He know that no man had ascended up to heaven...the throne of God? Because he came from there! Therefore, what heaven did Enoch and elijah went ?

The Scripture mentions three heavens (2 Corinthians 12:2), not just one!

The first heaven is earth's atmosphere where birds fly (Genesis 1:20. Jeremaih 4:25)
One of the Hebrew words for 'heaven'
is shamayim. This same word is
translated as 'sky' in the Scripture, as
can be seen by comparing Genesis 7:3, "fowls also of the AIR," with Genesis 7:23, "fowl of the HEAVEN."

The word 'sky' and 'heaven' are used
interchangeably from the same Hebrew word (Psalm 8:. So the first heaven is synonymous with 'HEIGHT OR ELEVATION'. In fact in Exodus 19:20 the Lord was on mount saina when he called Moses and God described there as heaven.

The second heaven is outer space
where the planets and stars exist
(Genesis 1:14-17; Psalm 8:3, Matthew 24:29).
Usually the term "HOST OF HEAVEN" or
"FIRMAMENT OF HEAVEN" is used to
describe this second heaven.

The third heaven is literally called "the third heaven" in 2 Corinthians 12:2. This third heaven is what Christ calls his "FATHER'S HOUSE" (John 14:2), and both Christ and the Apostle Paul calls it "PARADISE" (Luke 23:43, 2 Corinthians 12:2-4, Revelation 2:7).

So it is clear, elijah and enoch did not go to the third heaven, which Jesus called his father. The purpose of God in removing Elijah was to replace him with
another man who would occupy Elijah's office in Israel for another fifty years. This work had to start under a new king, for Ahaziah had just died, and Elijah was already aging. So, as not to disqualify Elijah in the sight of the people, God took him away allowing the mantle which signified the office of Elijah to drop into the hands of Elisha. Thus, God preserves the name and office of His prophet.

In 2 king 2:16 the people believe elijah was taken to another location:
2 king 2:16
"Look," they said, "we your servants have fifty able men. Let them go and look for your master. Perhaps the Spirit of the LORD has picked him up and set him down on some mountain or in some valley." "No," Elisha replied, "do not send them."

Elisha reply indicate it was God purpose of taken elijah that why he say "do not send them"

So after All this event had happened
Elisha had died, isreal find himself under a wicked king, God send elijah again;

2 Chronicles 21:12-15
12 Jehoram received a letter from ELIJAH the prophet, which said:
“This is what the Lord, the God of your
father David, says: ‘You have not followed the ways of your father Jehoshaphat or of Asa king of Judah. 13 But you have followed the ways of the kings of Israel,and you have led Judah and the people of Jerusalem to prostitute themselves, just as the house of Ahab did. You have also murdered your own brothers, members of your own family, men who were better than you. 14 So now the Lord is about to strike your people, your sons, your wives and everything that is yours,
with a heavy blow. 15 You yourself will
be very ill with a lingering disease of the
bowels, until the disease causes your
bowels to come out.’”

The content of this latter indicate elijah wrote it after he was taken away. Elijah and enoch went the same heaven.
Peace.

Jesus was not teaching that no one had ever gone to heaven before. Obviously, the Old Testament saints had gone to heaven (or paradise) when they died (Mark 12:26-27), and Enoch and Elijah had been taken there without dying (Genesis 5:24; Hebrews 11:5; 2 Kings 2:11). Rather, He was teaching that, of all rabbis, He had the best credentials. Jesus has direct contact with heaven; He is an expert on the subject.

Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/John-3-13.html#ixzz3dsaGBlT1

obaobirin:
read malvisguy212 post and do not use one version of the bible. thank u.

New International Version
By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death: "He could not be found, because God had taken him away." For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God.

New Living Translation
It was by faith that Enoch was taken up to heaven without dying--"he disappeared, because God took him." For before he was taken up, he was known as a person who pleased God.

English Standard Version
By faith Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death, and he was not found, because God had taken him. Now before he was taken he was commended as having pleased God.


DID HE DO IT BY HIMSELF?

MizJanet:
Very Good , you have just proved that your Jesus Lied in john 3:13 .

MizJanet:
Really ? Nice contradiction to Galatian 1:1 which says God the Father raised Jesus from the dead . lol

Why is your book so contradictory

NervousErection:
Yes, because a Christian who believes all of the above is brain-dead.

Emusan:
I suppose to quote OLAADEGBU but it seems both of you have the same view and I read malvisguy212 post also though it seems he missed it along the line.

I discovered that the way you people explain this very verse isn't the actual understanding of Jesus Christ's statement by many commentators.

To fully understand Jesus' statement, let's start from Verse 10 "10 Jesus answered and said to him, "Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things? 11 "Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness. [size=14pt]12 "If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?[/size] 13 "No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven." NKJV

Here, Jesus' statement means No man has ever gone to heaven (in bringing any report) and COME BACK to earth (to deliver it for mankind) except Him who has his origin from heaven and has come down.

Let me cite some NT commentators so that we can understand it better.

Geneva Bible.
"(k) Only Christ can teach us heavenly things, for no man ascends, etc. (l) That is, has any spiritual light and understanding, or ever had any, but only the Son of God who came down to us..."

Williams Burkitts
"Here our Saviour declares to Nicodemus, That none ever ascended up into heaven, to fetch down from thence the knowledge of divine mysteries, and to reveal the way of life and salvation to mankind by a Mediator, but only Christ himself; who, though he took upon him the human nature, and was then man upon earth yet was he at the same time in his divine nature actually in heaven as God."

Albert Barnes
"Verse 13. And no man hath ascended into heaven. No man, therefore, is qualified to speak of heavenly things, Joh 3:12. To speak of those things requires intimate acquaintance with them--demands that we have seen them; and as no one has ascended into heaven and returned, so no one is qualified to speak of them but He who came down from heaven. This does not mean that no one had gone to heaven or had been saved, for Enoch and Elijah had been borne there (Ge 5:24; comp. Heb 11:5; 2Ki 2:11), and Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and others were there; but it means that no one had ascended and returned, so as to be qualified to speak of the things there."

Family Bible
"Hath ascended up to heaven; learned heavenly things by actual presence there, and come down from that world to reveal them. Son of man; Jesus Christ. Which is in heaven; whose proper dwelling-place is in heaven. He left heaven for a season only, to return thither again."

Jameison Fausset Brown
13. no man hath ascended, &c.--There is something paradoxical in this language--"No one has gone up but He that came down, even He who is at once both up and down." Doubtless it was intended to startle and constrain His auditor to think that there must be mysterious elements in His Person. The old Socinians, to subvert the doctrine of the pre-existence of Christ, seized upon this passage as teaching that the man Jesus was secretly caught up to heaven to receive His instructions, and then "came down from heaven" to deliver them. But the sense manifestly is this: "The perfect knowledge of God is not obtained by any man's going up from earth to heaven to receive it--no man hath so ascended--but He whose proper habitation, in His essential and eternal nature, is heaven, hath, by taking human flesh, descended as the Son of man to disclose the Father, whom He knows by immediate gaze alike in the flesh as before He assumed it, being essentially and unchangeably 'in the bosom of the Father'"

I believe these can help us understand the content of that verse.

Shalom!

Emusan:
You're absolutely right.

because it's even contradicting for a Christian to believe ALL OF THE ABOVE at once.

dolphinheart:
Facts revealed so far from these thread.

Enoch:
1. The scriptures never said in any verse that enoch went/ ascended to heaven during his time.

2. That he did not experience death does not mean he did not die.

3. to butress 1 above , the scriptures said he ,enoch(along with others ) saw the promise afar off but have not received it yet and their condition is just like Davids condition as at the time the NT was written.

4. To butress 2 above, the scriptures said all faithfull servants of God ( though it did not mention all, but it did mention enoch by name )died!

5. Jesus stated in clear simple understandable words that "no man has ascended into heaven" . Derived analogy on the words "ascended" or who he was talking to will only lead to false teaching for it was Christ that opened the way to heaven for humans.

dolphinheart:
Elijah
1. The bible at different times used the word heaven to describe different geographical and non geographical locations . the context in which the words was used helps in understanding the word.

2. Elijah did not ascend/go up/ went to the heaven where jehovah and other spirit creatures reside.

3. To butress 2 above , the scriptures recorded that elijah practiced his prophetic duty on earth months or years after the events of the chariots.

4. Points 4 and 5 under enoch supports that of elijah too.

5 . Suggesting that man can ascend to heaven calls into question the ransom sacrifice of jesus and the title/position of savior which he holds. The only way to God is through jesus.

dolphinheart:
Questions : if anyone has ascended to heaven prior to jesus coming to earth is taken as truth. Then there is a level of reward that goes with faithfulness and performance and time for such reward is not uniform . For example elijah who lived after abraham went to heaven while abraham went to the good side of hell(according to some people o!)is this process so?

David died before elijah, what did the scriptures say David(who's line jesus came) is , and where did the scriptures say he is?

If scriptural quotes are needed , please tell me, ill gladly provide them .

Sarassin:
Perhaps a different perspective, In the Book of Joshua God instructs that there were to be 48 cities set aside for the Levities to live in. These were not to be for a mixed population they were meant for the Levites only. Out of these 48 cities 6 were to be designated as Sanctuary Cities, or cities of refuge: 3 on the west side of the Jordan, and 3 on the east side.

We know that the terms “Heaven” and “Hell” in Hebrew literature were translated as Abraham’s Bosom and the Place of Torments. Abraham’s Bosom was for the righteous dead; the Place of Torments for those who died in their sins, without righteousness metaphorically speaking.

The cities of refuge were a physical demonstration of the spiritual principle of Abraham’s Bosom Demonstrating that if you die in unrighteousness, you are already judged.

So what one may ask? Well, in the Gospel of Luke we get the story of Abraham’s Bosom and the Place of Torments that centers on Lazarus. And we’re told that when Jesus went there he presented the Good News and set the captives there free, of course the refuge would have been occupied by those seeking refuge from the priestly or local authorities for one misdemeanor or the other.

So what or where exactly is this Abraham’s bosom? The clue is in the New Testament, Revelation 11:8 states that Jesus was crucified in `the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt'. This positively identifies the location as Qumran, designated as `Egypt' by the ascetic order of the Egyptian Therapeutate.

Luke 23:43 and today you shall be with me in paradise….

The author of the Gospel of Luke writing in hindsight let the cat out of the bag, he was of course referring to Qumran Caves 7 & 8 where the dead sea scrolls were discovered , the caves have the ancient nickname “Paradise”. Of particular interest is Cave 4, south of the vestry where there was a cemetery garden also known as.... you guessed it... Abrahams Bosom.

These caves, set up high in the hills had to be ascended.

malvisguy212:
enoch died, and the bible confirmed it,The apostle Paul mentioned the circumstances associated with Enoch in Hebrews 11:5, along with other men of faith, and then stated: "These ALL DIED IN FAITH, NOT having received the PROMISE" (Hebrews 11:13). Yes, Enoch died, and he did not receive the promise of heaven (verse 16) at the time the book of Hebrews was
written.

Let us examine the phrase In Genesis 5:24, where it says, "And Enoch walked with God: and HE WAS NOT; for God took him" and compare the same Hebrew phrase in:

Psalms 37:36, "Yet he passed
away, and, lo, HE WAS NOT: yea, I
sought him, but he could not be
found."
Psalms 39:13, "O spare me, that I
may recover strength, before I go
hence, and BE NO MORE ."

The Hebrew for the phrases are the same Hebrew as Genesis 5:24. As in the Psalms, the phrase means the person "PASSAWAY OR WOULD EVENTUALLY DIE" . Let’s look at the same phrase in the book of Genesis:

Genesis 42:13, "And they said,Thy servants are twelve brethren, the sons of one man in the land of Canaan; and, behold, the youngest is this day with our father, and one IS NOT ." This was
spoken by his brothers of Joseph. What’d they mean by "is not"?

So what does the phrase"should not see death" mean? Notice it is not in the present tense, that he "did not see" death, but that he "should not see death." John 8:51, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, HE SHALL NEVER SEE DEATH"

Based on Hebrews 9:27, "And as it is
appointed unto men once to die, but
after this the judgment:" and Hebrews 11:13, "These all died in faith, not having received the promises," we must conclude that Enoch died the first death. To believe Enoch did not die is to deny the plain word of many other scriptures as well. For example, Romans 5:12, "...so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" and Romans 5:14, "...death reigned from Adam to
Moses, even over them that had not
sinned." Are we to believe that Enoch
did not .

OLAADEGBU:
Why should I be surprised that you are accusing me of lying when you accused the personification of Truth of lying?

MizJanet:
Guy , you are very confuse fellow , your first post on this thread says "others were taken to heaven by Gods influence , here you admit they were taken to heaven .


After some minutes , you changed :

"the greek word can also mean SKY" , " and we can conclude that Elijah and Enoch didnt go to heaven" . Maaaan .

That shows u dont know what you are saying

OLAADEGBU:
You need to twist scriptures to arrive at your twisted interpretation. Scriptures said Enoch did not see death, don't twist it to mean what you want it to mean.

"By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God" (Hebrews 11:5).



To get a better understanding of what our Lord Jesus meant when He used the word "ascend" check out Emusan's post above. You are showing the traits of the deceived seeking to deceive others. You said that there is no place in scripture that said Enoch went to heaven and now where it said Elijah went to heaven you now want us to believe that meant to say something else. As I said before, you don't have to make the scriptures say what you want it to say, let the Bible speak.

"And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven" (2 Kings 2:11).



What our Lord Jesus said in John 3:13 is an emphatic claim to deity and was a direct answer to the question He asked in Proverbs 30:4, that He is the only begotten Son of God, the uncreated Creator of heaven and earth.

"Who has ascended up into heaven, or descended? who has gathered the wind in his fist? who has bound the waters in a garment? who has established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if you can tell" (Proverbs 30:4).

unitysheart:
At that time Elijah goes to Bethel, from there to Jericho and down to the Jordan, Elisha sticking close to him all the way. There Elisha is rewarded for his faithfulness by seeing a fiery war chariot and fiery horses and Elijah ascending in a windstorm to the heavens. Elisha takes up Elijah’s official garment that had fallen off him, and “two parts” (like a firstborn son’s portion) in Elijah’s spirit, a spirit of courage and of being “absolutely jealous for Jehovah the God of armies,” come on him.—2Ki 2:1-13; 1Ki 19:10, 14; compare De 21:17.

Elijah does not die at this time, nor does he go into the invisible spirit realm, but he is transferred to another prophetic assignment. (Joh 3:13) This is shown by the fact that Elisha does not hold any period of mourning for his master. A number of years after his ascension in the windstorm Elijah is still alive and active as a prophet, this time to the king of Judah. Because of the wicked course taken by King Jehoram of Judah, Elijah writes him a letter expressing Jehovah’s condemnation, which is fulfilled shortly thereafter.—2Ch 21:12-15
http://m.wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200001307

Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/John-3-13.html#ixzz3dsaGBlT1

dolphinheart:
It is you who has to stop all this ur lies.
It is you who has to stop adding to the scriptures what the scriptures did not say.

Have you not learnt that you have to always lie in other to cover the first lie, thus making the lies to grow in propulsion?

With the lies you have been throwing about , you hooked yourself and thus was unable to answer bible questions posted to you by mizjanet .

dolphinheart:
1.U said enoch and elijah did not die, how do you explain the statement that "all have died because they have sinned" ?

2. U said I twist the scriptures, did you not read Hebrews 11:13? . Was apostle paul wrong in saying they all ( all the people mentioned from verse 1including enoch)
Died?

dolphinheart:
3. U say I twist the scriptures, I want to ask you, does all reference the word heaven in the bible mean the spiritual abode of God? . Are there references to the word heaven meaning something else than the spiritual realm? If yes, how then do we understand what that reference mean?

dolphinheart:
4. Did you not read about the activities of elijah on earth after the chariot incident? Did you not read that he later wrote a letter to an earthly king?

dolphinheart:
5. Have you not read that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God?.

6. In ur own words, can you explain how a human can cleans himself of his inherited sin to be able to enter into Gods holy presence for a first time.

dolphinheart:
7. Jesus stated, no one can come to the father except through him, how did elijah and enoch now enter heaven without jesus?

dolphinheart:
8. If elijah and enoch did go into paradise ,then,pls tell us where is paradise. ?

dolphinheart:
9. You are quick to use a post that supports ur view, the post says all the saints went to heaven or paradise, my question to you is, if they are in paradise, who will jesus come to earth to ressurect in the last days.?

dolphinheart:
10. What do you understand by paul statement in the last two verses of heb chapter 11.

dolphinheart:
11. Why did jesus die for our sins if there was another way we can be reconciled to God and enter paradise.

dolphinheart:
You first lie needed to be surpported by other lies, and this has created a mass of lies that you can't now explain away.

In ur explanation of enoch and elijah, (a)when will there coming back to earth occur, before ur rapture or after ur rapture?. (b)What will happen to all those who did not go with the rapture? (c)Will there be a second rapture, will all those left behind all die or go to ur hell fire? (c)If some will later go to heaven, why where they not raptured in the first place?

You can see that my questions and statements where numbered, pls do not give a muddled up reply.

davien:
Again...dolphinheart,OLAADEGBU will never agree with you because gotquestions.com and answersingenesis.com disagree...they are his bible and god...

This is what happens when a christian is brought up by fundamentalism...no more bible approach to answers...only X website + X role model = Bible...

His reply would end with;

OLAADEGBU:
Aren't you happy that you have now found some new friends to attack the common enemy? Repent and believe the gospel before it gets too late.

OLAADEGBU:
It is now becoming clear where this heresy is emanating from.

MizJanet:
Jesus: No MAN has ever ascended to heaven

OLAADEGBU : Liar , man like enoch and elijah has ascend to heaven .

..................

Paul: death spread to all men

OLAADEGBU: Liar , death didnt spread to all men , enoch and elijah go to heaven without dying

...............

OLAADEGBU : okay, paul may not lie , enoch and elijah will still come back to die

QUestion: point where bible says enoch and elijah will still come back to die .

OLAADEGBU : i cant found such in the bible , because it was Made UP .



Typical brainwashed christian .