₦airaland Forum

CaptainJune:
Johnnydon22, God does not condemn or reward on the basis of your goodness or wickedness. Faith in the death of Jesus on the cross is the basis of salvation, not morality.

You can be the kindest, meekest, humblest person in the world but still end up in hell because your spirit is still dead because of sin. Only the blood of Jesus Christ can wash the sins away, make your spirit alive, make you righteous through belief in Him, not through your works of goodness.

Religions of the world strive to attain righteousness through good deeds, but to God, man's righteousness is filthy rags before Him. The righteousness that qualifies one for heaven is simple belief in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. As you can see, that righteousness is not ours, it belongs to God. It is not of works of goodness but by grace. That is the message of the Gospel.

theAtheist101:
The Bible God and Satan are one.

musKeeto:
Hi CaptainJune. Nice user name.

Would you define righteousness as acting according to God's will?

CaptainJune:
Johnnydon22, God does not condemn or reward on the basis of your goodness or wickedness. Faith in the death of Jesus on the cross is the basis of salvation, not morality.

You can be the kindest, meekest, humblest person in the world but still end up in hell because your spirit is still dead because of sin. Only the blood of Jesus Christ can wash the sins away, make your spirit alive, make you righteous through belief in Him, not through your works of goodness.

Religions of the world strive to attain righteousness through good deeds, but to God, man's righteousness is filthy rags before Him. The righteousness that qualifies one for heaven is simple belief in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. As you can see, that righteousness is not ours, it belongs to God. It is not of works of goodness but by grace. That is the message of the Gospel.

TheDauraMallam:
I can't believe you just wrote the bolded.


So, in essence, you're saying if I decide to kill all the moslems alive right now, both singles, married, pregnant women and children, I am saved onxe I acknowledge Jesus as the Lord and savior, right?

I weep for humanity.

CaptainJune:
Don't be deceived. God is not mocked for whatever a man sows he will reap.

CaptainJune:
Don't be deceived. God is not mocked for whatever a man sows he will reap.

fearlesschicken:
He sows murder and reaps heaven after forgiveness? Nice reply dude

It would have been better not to reply that than saying such!

kolajamesjnr:
Atleast stick to ur arguement kindly explain "whatever a man sows he shall reap"

CaptainJune:
Let me put it this way. If the evil deed was done in ignorance of the Word of God, there is forgiveness of sins. If, however, after knowing the truth of the Gospel, knowing the commandments and love of God, you decide to take advantage of grace by perpetrating murder to your satisfaction with the intention of asking forgiveness later, you've willfully sown destruction and you'll reap eternal destruction in hell. In this case, there no longer remains any sacrifice for sin - Hebrews 10:26.

Now do you understand my answer to him?

Weah96:
What if the murderer is truly remorseful? He intended to outsmart the system, but felt real remorse after doing the killing?

Grace not deeds. Who are you to convict someone?

johnydon22:
[b]So many times i and am sure other atheists, agnostics, deists, pantheists have heard this question..

"Why be good?"
we have seen this from every angle, even here on nairaland, in real life..

The idea of it from the questioners perspective is

"Since you have no God who will burn you in hell or reward you in heaven then why do you bother being good?

We are very familiar with that and many theists won't deny having conceived that question, trailing that line of thought or asking it when discussing with an Unbeliever or the concept of Unbelief.

Actually this line of thought terrifies me, it scares me and gets me really very afraid when i see people ask that question or directly or indirectly imply it...
It makes me think "So without the idea of religion coming up with the concept of a God who is willing to roast you in a literal fire forever these people won't bother to be good?"

"So without it, we would have these people depicting to be saints as serial killers, rapists, murderers, thieves?"

Anybody reading this would agree with me that people who trail such line of thought really lack INDEPENDENT MORAL BASIS, therefore shows someone who has absolutely no need for his brain to guide his day to day activities but allow religious dogmas, superstition and psychological fear do that for him/her.

Before i proceed on why an atheist, agnostic, deist or pantheist are good without adhering to the idea of threats to do so, let me first define what an unbeliever Considers to be moral because generally many things religions consider MORAL are directly Opposite of what we (even theists included) consider to be MORAL.

e.g: Killing Unbelievers/Apostates like the Quran has charged
e.g: Killing Brides found not to be virgins as the bible Charged.
(even Mary would have been a victim of this if according to the fable an angel had not warned Joseph in a dream not to rat her out)
[size=15]
So societal Secular definition of Morality is: Actions that DECREASES individual human suffering and/or betters societal well being, freedom, equality and Justice...[/size]

So going by this one is sure to see that what secular society or independent moral basis considers to be MORAL are just actions towards others and the world that are pleasing and not what a religious book says.

It takes perception to recognize that which we find to be moral (Good to us and the society and what we find not to be) and this is rooted in EMPATHY which is considering the feeling of others in your actions towards them.

SO NOW MOVING INTO WHY AN UNBELIEVER IN A GOD/RELIGION BOTHER TO BE GOOD.

You need to buy bread, you saw John and called him to buy the bread for you. He refuses and goes on his merry way. Ordinarily this one action of John is wrong to you.

On a second scenario you called John and asked him to buy you a bread offering him #20 tip or threatening to slap thunder out of his eyes if he doesn't and John rushes to buy the bread.. why do do you think John agreed to go to that errand?

On a third scenario; You call Joseph to buy a bread for you, he carries out that request swimmingly ..

Which among the two kids John and Joseph (Judging from the 2nd and 3rd Scenario) really did good??

Now looking at this from the MORALITY PERSPECTIVE AND RELIGION.

example 1
If you are good because you want to make heaven, you are not good because you want to be good but because you want to earn a reward after all, you only are good for your own gain... We call that selfishness... Is that goodness in entirety??

example 2
If you are good because you fear hell, you want to escape hell. You are only good because you want to escape punishment, you just want to save your own skin after all..
that still is a selfish reason... is that goodness in entirety??

example 3
One that is good not because they want a heaven or fear a hell but because they want good to happen, because they care and because they are empathic and compassionate towards others?

Among these three examples, who amongst them is truly good?? I would let you be the judge of that..

Anybody reading this wouldn't want me to go any further to see that One be it a believer or an unbeliever do not need the promise of a heaven or the threat of a hell to be good..One can be good for goodness sake.

WHY BOTHER BE GOOD..
Robert Ingersoll once said:
"The Only Good is Happiness, Where to be Happy is here and how to be happy is to make OTHERS happy.."

This one simple quote speaks volume of why bother to be Good..

When i see a dirty starving kid lying in the mud, if i pick and clean him up, feed and wash him.. This one act itself is enough to make that kid happy, and the smile on that kids face is enough to make you smile...

Just cleaning a dirty patch of land is enough to make me smile when i see it..

Giving to a poor man is enough to make them smile and enough to also put a smile on your face.

So when next you ask an unbeliever why bother be good, please also ask them.
"Why bother not killing their mother?"
"why bother loving their kids?"
or most importantly "Why bother being happy?"

So my actions are not as a result of any religious stipulated morals or about a God or about any religious creed, threat or reward.

My actions are towards people, humans, other life forms and the earth. . So assuming there is a God i don't even care what it says or thinks about my dealings with people because my actions are towards people not Deities.

Someone would ask an atheist: "Why don't you rape, murder, steal and destroy as much as you want"

"Yes actually i do those thing as much AS I WANT. I rape, i murder, i steal and destroy as MUCH AS I WANT and the MUCH I WANT IS ZERO (0) and that is it."

That i am good is because I WANT TO not because any deity or anybody wants me to
. . Good or bad is sorely my decision and my responsibility..

If you are good to others because of the promise of heaven, it shows how little you think of others.

if you are good because of hell, it shows how little you think of yourself. . .

Be Good for Goodness sake.

I have once told a pastor "You cannot tell me about morality until you and i agree on what we think is moral, because subjecting a little child to the psychological abuse and fear by threatening him/her with a horrifying burning flame in order to instill morality is horrifying, disturbing, wrong, wicked and immoral to me..."

One should be good because of Goodness sake, because they want good to happen, because they are empathic and compassionate towards others.
We have always affirmed that Empathy guides morality and empathy is a human emotion.

If muslim Jihadists were Empathic or compassionate towards others they would not kill or murder them in the name of God because of belief, in fact they even see this action to be right.

If a Christian pastor is empathic towards the poor masses, he would not extort money from them in the name of God..

Or the atheistic man that killed three people, if he was empathic towards them, he wouldn't have done that..

Morality is not synonymous to belief, having a belief is not same as being moral neither is not being a believer in any abstract concept same as immorality.

Morality deals with actions and not belief or unbelief.

So i hope after this; Nobody will ask an atheist, agnostic, pantheist or deist "why they are good or why bother be good or in the common sense mistake religion or belief to mean moral"

...
[/b]

CaptainJune:
I don't think his belated remorse has that power to overwrite his action because he already had knowledge of the truth before committing the act. He already knew the Word of God concerning that act. He already knew the consequences but he willfully did it. There's such a fatal step a man will take that will make him reserved by God for judgment even though he later shows remorse for his actions.

However, who am I to judge? It is between him and God. I've only said what I know as written in the Word of God.

hahn:
John, you have started again o

These religious people's matter just tire me abeg

Weah96:
But every immoral action in the bible is regarded as sin. The final step could be the fifth consecutive murder, or it could be as simple as telling a lie.

Your next lie might just be the one to convict you.

menesheh:
Continue. You shouldn't get tired, some people are on top of the fence and looking unto you in order to touch their foot on the ground. Most people are misinformed and indoctrinated and have no reachable platform to get info about their delusion of which a piece of your comments, arguments, and debates here can do things you may not know it can . You are not doing that because of some people the likes of CaptainJune , MrPresident1, Eddlad , malvisguy212 and their sort that are repudiators.

You are not doing it for divine reward but for consciousness raising which will help in making our world a better place devoid of delusion, bigotry, racism, harmful believes, prejudice, believing illusion to be fact etc.

CaptainJune:
Thanks for the compliment but, seriously, it will be most unfair to the creator of this thread to entertain questions not related to the op. So, I believe you will understand if I decline giving any answer to your question.

hahn:
True bro.

But I always get a headache whenever I read some comments here. When people start talking about "the known unknown" or about how cool it is for their god to burn up people simply because they don't "believe" in their version of the story despite their being good and humble throughout their lifetime I just feel like starting a church and milking these delusionists myself

hahn:
True bro.

But I always get a headache whenever I read some comments here. When people start talking about "the known unknown" or about how cool it is for their god to burn up people simply because they don't "believe" in their version of the story despite their being good and humble throughout their lifetime I just feel like starting a church and milking these delusionists myself

menesheh:
Continue. You shouldn't get tired, some people are on top of the fence and looking unto you in order to touch their foot on the ground. Most people are misinformed and indoctrinated and have no reachable platform to get info about their delusion of which a piece of your comments, arguments, and debates here can do things you may not know it can . You are not doing that because of some people the likes of CaptainJune , MrPresident1, Eddlad , malvisguy212 and their sort that are repudiators.

You are not doing it for divine reward but for consciousness raising which will help in making our world a better place devoid of delusion, bigotry, racism, harmful believes, prejudice, believing illusion to be fact etc.

hahn:
That was how I "borrowed" this quote of yours for that same dude. That guy's reasoning amazes me.

I still can't get over his famous "the known unknown" statement.

The ability for theists to substitute reasoning for their "beliefs" is hilarious!

TheDauraMallam:
His infamous*...

hahn:
He's infamous for his famous comment

TheDauraMallam:
I have a feeling both of us are actually correct.

Maybe, maybe not.

johnydon22:
This really has nothing to do with the OP

e.g: Killing Brides found not to be virgins as the bible Charged.
(even Mary would have been a victim of this if according to the fable an angel had not warned Joseph in a dream not to rat her out)

On a second scenario you called John and asked him to buy you a bread offering him #20 tip or threatening to slap thunder out of his eyes if he doesn't and John rushes to buy the bread.. why do do you think John agreed to go to that errand?

theAtheist101:
Quotes from the OP



Who gave them this injunction? And how different is he from his arch-enemy?



I assumed you were talking about him here. Am I wrong?

johnydon22:
No, i was not. . . My post was not an attack on any religion. . I only gave examples both with the Quran and Bible to buttress my point of how religious stipulated morals are opposite of independent and secular idea of morality.

second scenario goes for all branch of theism that adopts Threat and reward ideas to instill punishment.... Islam, Christianity, Mormonism, Egyptian ancient religion, Hinduism and countless others.

My post was to address the naive thinking of people "who think that without the concept of a God and punishment and reward, one cannot be good" So it's not an attack on any deity, religion or culture ..

Just an explanation of independent Moral basis...

menesheh:
Continue. You shouldn't get tired, some people are on top of the fence and looking unto you in order to touch their foot on the ground. Most people are misinformed and indoctrinated and have no reachable platform to get info about their delusion of which a piece of your comments, arguments, and debates here can do things you may not know it can . You are not doing that because of some people the likes of CaptainJune , MrPresident1, Eddlad , malvisguy212 and their sort that are repudiators.

You are not doing it for divine reward but for consciousness raising which will help in making our world a better place devoid of delusion, bigotry, racism, harmful believes, prejudice, believing illusion to be fact etc.

TheDauraMallam:
They all fall under the umbrella of moronism