patches689:


TL;DR: Looking for problems where none exist

I think Henry was asking honestly. Let's savour the rare moments before the garrulous suspect(s) spews their usual excrement here.

To your question Henry, the answer is no. Instructive is that you use an official DoD pic; our DoD PR is almost as useless as your own. Thank goodness we have private individuals (reservists included) who care enough about the SA military to expend personal resources to document it properly (something Nigeria does not yet have, unfortunately).

frumentius:


I think Henry was asking honestly. Let's savour the rare moments before the garrulous suspect(s) spews their usual excrement here.

To your question Henry, the answer is no. Instructive is that you use an official DoD pic; our DoD PR is almost as useless as your own. Thank goodness we have private individuals (reservists included) who care enough about the SA military to expend personal resources to document it properly (something Nigeria does not yet have, unfortunately).

IMO his honesty went out the window after I showed him it was not a problem and he continued.

Also, wtf is up with all these PK's on the side mounting? Why not SS-77 or the MAG?

frumentius:


I think Henry was asking honestly. Let's savour the rare moments before the garrulous suspect(s) spews their usual excrement here.

To your question Henry, the answer is no. Instructive is that you use an official DoD pic; our DoD PR is almost as useless as your own. Thank goodness we have private individuals (reservists included) who care enough about the SA military to expend personal resources to document it properly (something Nigeria does not yet have, unfortunately).

At-least your DoD posts good quality images every now and between. However Private individuals led by Dean wingrin have saved and completely furnished the image of the SANDF.


However, i find your photos to be significantly better because they are more intimate. I can bet my last Naira, no South-African had previously seen a modern Recce and the rifles they field until you showed up. I've noticed they(South-Africans) can't hide their excitements anytime you post.


In Nigeria, we get to see the events from the eyes of the soldiers themselves, but you can see they aren't professionally taken. That's an asset we lack.

Henry240:


So why where we having arguments over this last year?

Because you adopted the maximalist position of dismissing all RDLVs within an SF vehicular arsenal. To re-iterate, the mission profile determines the assets. The SASF has Geckos, Hornets, Mambas, Casspirs and Samil Zumlacs etc available, depending on the mission.
Doctrine is always paramount!
An illustration: when I was in the DRC, the Ukrainans had a sizeable number of anti-tank missiles for their (somewhat useless, mostly unreliable ) Hinds which they never used. They ended up selling them to the Congolese for training because they needed the funds and after the tropical sub-optimal storage, mostly useless in the European climate.

And then one has to cross paths here with fanboys/keyboard warriors/idiots asking why Rooivalk is not fielding more than 20mm cannon and rockets in the DRC!

patches689:


IMO his honesty went out the window after I showed him it was not a problem and he continued.

Also, wtf is up with all these PK's on the side mounting? Why not SS-77 or the MAG?

I might just get into OPSEC/PERSEC trouble here (Long story involving Def. Intel.): that's the vehicle commander's seat and his primary duty is attending to the Chaka C2 console located in front of him inside the vehicle. The Hornet also sports a 20mm cannon but can also carry 2 more men in personnel carrier mode longer and quieter; stabler and more accurate with mounted mortars, rockets and anti-tank missiles.

At the moment, tests are being done on anti-aircraft capabilities.

Also, look at the previous Recce RDLV, the Jackal. Doctrine informed by wartime, Vehicle commander in charge of the 20mm, very basic comms (C2 comprising radios; no computer screens; basic GPS; no graphic interface/laser designators for the rockets and ATGMs etc).

frumentius:


Because you adopted the maximalist position of dismissing all RDLVs within an SF vehicular arsenal. To re-iterate, the mission profile determines the assets. The SASF has Geckos, Hornets, Mambas, Casspirs and Samil Zumlacs etc available, depending on the mission.
Doctrine is always paramount!
An illustration: when I was in the DRC, the Ukrainans had a sizeable number of anti-tank missiles for their (somewhat useless, mostly unreliable ) Hinds which they never used. They ended up selling them to the Congolese for training because they needed the funds and after the tropical sub-optimal storage, mostly useless in the European climate.

And then one has to cross paths here with fanboys/keyboard warriors/idiots asking why Rooivalk is not fielding more than 20mm cannon and rockets in the DRC!

Neat

Niger air force SA341 Gazelles

Henry240:
Nigeria LAPV


Very beautiful vehicle.

How many gun mounts on the roof hatches?

frumentius:


I might just get into OPSEC/PERSEC trouble here (Long story involving Def. Intel.): that's the vehicle commander's seat and his primary duty is attending to the Chaka C2 console located in front of him inside the vehicle. The Hornet also sports a 20mm cannon but can also carry 2 more men in personnel carrier mode longer and quieter; stabler and more accurate with mounted mortars, rockets and anti-tank missiles.

At the moment, tests are being done on anti-aircraft capabilities.

Also, look at the previous Recce RDLV, the Jackal. Doctrine informed by wartime, Vehicle commander in charge of the 20mm, very basic comms (C2 comprising radios; no computer screens; basic GPS; no graphic interface/laser designators for the rockets and ATGMs etc).

That's the Vlermuis aka bat vehicle.

south sudan air force MI-17

Angola air force MI-171sh

patches689:


Ok, so you are still talking about firepower?

What does that have to do with modernity?

Project Hoefyster started in early 2005 - making it just over 10 years old

Configuration is a question of doctrine, nothing else. Our doctrine is developed for African wars, based on African war experience... those imports are designed for Russian and Chinese wars based on their war experience

And in terms of modernity:

- 30mm CAM-GUN is the most advanced in the world
- 60mm mortar is the most advanced in the world
- MCT turret is amongst the most advanced in the world
- flat-floor mine protection is a cutting edge technology
- No other African country has BLUFOR trackers
- MATIS thermal imagers are cutting edge

Finally: BTR = 2006 (prototype)
BMP-3 = 1987
Type-07P = 2006
Badger = 2010 (prototype)

So, my statement remains correct: The Most Advanced in Africa

Stop starting arguments for the sake of it, the one you are making now does not even relate to my original post!!

Stop attaching lies to your comments and stop trying to force false information down our throats.


Which source says Badger 30mm cannon is the most advanced in the world? Show us the source and stop making up things.

I could also claim the newly developed Ukrainian ZTM-2 is the most modern 30mm cannon in the world because it came into market around 2014.

BMP-3 model 1987, nobody buys that anymore, its no longer produced. The current modern variants BMP-3F and BMP-3M is what buyers are now getting.

Badger, 2010 ? Badger is based on Patria and the Patria project started in Finland in 1995...that is 21 years ago.

Project Hoefyster started in 1997.....google it on defenseindustry daily website, the Badger IFV is a 20 year old obsolete concept design, there is nothing modern about a 20 years ago concept.

The extra floor protection is basic MRAP technology and nothing is cutting edge about it, it actually made the Badger to lose it's amphibious capability, how is that for your fake 'cutting edge tech' claims?

Badger 30mm cannon has low rate of fire per minute and is incapbale of rapid fire at a high rate.

Your 60mm mortar is the most advanced in the world? Mortar is mortar dude, or your own Badger mortar fires nuclear shells? Which source proves your mortar is better than all other mortars in the world ?

No other African country needs to have your own exact type of trackers and thermal imagers, their IFV is made in a different country and have their own electronic instruments, why must they have your own type?

Badger mortar carrier is not an IFV, it has no cannon, NATO standard says IFV must carry cannon at least 20mm.

Badger missile carrier is not an IFV, it has no cannon, and fails to meet NATO standard of 20mm cannon minimum.

Only the Badger with 30mm cannon and 12.7mm machine gun is an IFV, all other Badger types or variants are not IFV.

Firepower has to do with modernity just like onboard equipment/instrumentation. NATO standard says 20mm cannon minimum for IFV and it says for modern IFVs, anti-tank missiles to defend itself against enemy tanks. So the lack of combined cannon + missile capability has removed the Badger from the NATO standard definition of a modern IFV.

One single T-72 tank will destroy one hundred Badger IFVs in two hours, and the Badger cannot fight back or defend itself. It's one of the worst IFVs in Africa for the price of almost $5 million per Badger.

Sorry to burst your bubble. No offence intended. Just wish you stop posting lies upon lies. Thank you.

MikeCZAR:
That's the Vlermuis aka bat vehicle.

Bloody hell Mike, some of us translated it as jackal...

agaugust:


How many gun mounts on the roof hatches?

It actually does have 2 gun mounts. It's hatch is built similar to the GAZ Tigr.

Henry240:


It actually does have 2 gun mounts. It's hatch is built similar to the GAZ Tigr.

I see only one roof hatch in the photo. Did you notice improved ground clearance in this new variant? Use double size of current rim and tyres, you get even more ground clearance. Use heavy thread mud-terrain tyres. Minimum roof gun mount should be two, big enough for one forward 12.7mm HMG, one rear 30mm AGL. Militarize its looks and armaments if you want more sales, Congo DRC is a huge APV market unexplored.

"With the new uniforms, all arms of the Nigerian military would now wear the same camouflage uniform and have a common system of identification.

What would differentiate soldiers now would be the tags on the left side of the chest, signifying whether the soldier is an airforce, army or naval officer."

-CAS, NAF HQ.

Guys, anything new or different from our photos already seen here? If yes, please post the new photos, especially the left chest service arm I.D.

agaugust:


I see only one roof hatch in the photo. Did you notice improved ground clearance in this new variant? Use double size of current rim and tyres, you get even more ground clearance. Minimum roof gun mount should be two. Militarize its looks if you want more sales, Congo DRC is a market unexplored.

I'm referring to gun mounts, not hatches. Your question was on gun mounts, it can carry a GPMG and a secondary armament. Hence i said similar to the GAZ Tigr. It's also the same height as the Tigr.



This variant has a much higher ground clearance than the old model. Aesthetically, it also looks very nice, importantly, it provides protection against Armour Piercing rounds. The company should have gone for the VN-4 type tires, with that size, this vehicle could serve both Police & Military.



Nigeria is a very huge market. If each state, including the FCT purchases 10 each for local police, that's 370 vehicles. FG complements with a sizable order of 50, 420 vehicles. There's also Immigration, Customs, Prisons.

frumentius:


Bloody hell Mike, some of us translated it as jackal...

Hehe the Gecko replaced the Jackal.

White haired or older members of some unit still insist it is " Vlermuis" not bat.

agaugust:
"rom our photos already seen here? If yes, please post the new photos, especially the left chest service arm I.D.

It's the old "new" type we've always seen.



On the PF2, increasing the tire might mean we have to build on a different chassis. The widely used alternative is the Ford F-150 chassis, i know literally 10s of LAVs built on this chassis. Even the Igirigi is built on this chassis.


For MRAPs, Unimog trucks, Kraz and Kamaz are perfect.

agaugust:
"With the new uniforms, all arms of the Nigerian military would now wear the same camouflage uniform and have a common system of identification.

What would differentiate soldiers now would be the tags on the left side of the chest, signifying whether the soldier is an airforce, army or naval officer."

-CAS, NAF HQ.

Guys, anything new or different from our photos already seen here? If yes, please post the new photos, especially the left chest service arm I.D.

the same sha

Nigeria Army Commandos

MikeCZAR:
Hehe the Gecko replaced the Jackal.

White haired or older members of some unit still insist it is " Vlermuis" not bat.

Did I just call the "Bat" the "Jackal"?

I'll blame it on the Cape Highlander mates and the bloody port tonight!

agaugust:
"With the new uniforms, all arms of the Nigerian military would now wear the same camouflage uniform and have a common system of identification.

What would differentiate soldiers now would be the tags on the left side of the chest, signifying whether the soldier is an airforce, army or naval officer."

-CAS, NAF HQ.

Guys, anything new or different from our photos already seen here? If yes, please post the new photos, especially the left chest service arm I.D.

guessing you're not very happy about this?

agaugust:


Stop attaching lies to your comments and stop trying to force false information down our throats.


Which source says Badger 30mm cannon is the most advanced in the world? Show us the source and stop making up things.

I could also claim the newly developed Ukrainian ZTM-2 is the most modern 30mm cannon in the world because it came into market around 2014.

BMP-3 model 1987, nobody buys that anymore, its no longer produced. The current modern variants BMP-3F and BMP-3M is what buyers are now getting.

Badger, 2010 ? Badger is based on Patria and the Patria project started in Finland in 1995...that is 21 years ago.

Project Hoefyster started in 1997.....google it on defenseindustry daily website, the Badger IFV is a 20 year old obsolete concept design, there is nothing modern about a 20 years ago concept.

The extra floor protection is basic MRAP technology and nothing is cutting edge about it, it actually made the Badger to lose it's amphibious capability, how is that for your fake 'cutting edge tech' claims?

Badger 30mm cannon has low rate of fire per minute and is incapbale of rapid fire at a high rate.

Your 60mm mortar is the most advanced in the world? Mortar is mortar dude, or your own Badger mortar fires nuclear shells? Which source proves your mortar is better than all other mortars in the world ?

No other African country needs to have your own exact type of trackers and thermal imagers, their IFV is made in a different country and have their own electronic instruments, why must they have your own type?

Badger mortar carrier is not an IFV, it has no cannon, NATO standard says IFV must carry cannon at least 20mm.

Badger missile carrier is not an IFV, it has no cannon, and fails to meet NATO standard of 20mm cannon minimum.

Only the Badger with 30mm cannon and 12.7mm machine gun is an IFV, all other Badger types or variants are not IFV.

Firepower has to do with modernity just like onboard equipment/instrumentation. NATO standard says 20mm cannon minimum for IFV and it says for modern IFVs, anti-tank missiles to defend itself against enemy tanks. So the lack of combined cannon + missile capability has removed the Badger from the NATO standard definition of a modern IFV.

One single T-72 tank will destroy one hundred Badger IFVs in two hours, and the Badger cannot fight back or defend itself. It's one of the worst IFVs in Africa for the price of almost $5 million per Badger.

Sorry to burst your bubble. No offence intended. Just wish you stop posting lies upon lies. Thank you.

What are you going to do when i post a citation for each of my claims?

Badger is the most advanced, simple undeniable fact.

You need to move beyond your anti-South Africa obsession.

Nigerian Armed forces SF retake border town of Gudumbari

Patchesagain:


What are you going to do when i post a citation for each of my claims?

Badger is the most advanced, simple undeniable fact.

You need to move beyond your anti-South Africa obsession.

You need to move beyond your obsession with telling lies and deceiving innocent readers on this forum.

Post your citations' website names not weblinks to clutter this thread, thats what I did with defenceindustry daily. Give name of source, people can google it.

One single T-72 tank will destroy one hundred Badger IFVs in two hours, and the Badger cannot fight back or defend itself. Badger IFV fails to meet NATO standard of basic modernity.
.

Henry240:


I'm referring to gun mounts, not hatches. Your question was on gun mounts, it can carry a GPMG and a secondary armament. Hence i said similar to the GAZ Tigr. It's also the same height as the Tigr.



This variant has a much higher ground clearance than the old model. Aesthetically, it also looks very nice, importantly, it provides protection against Armour Piercing rounds. The company should have gone for the VN-4 type tires, with that size, this vehicle could serve both Police & Military.



Nigeria is a very huge market. If each state, including the FCT purchases 10 each for local police, that's 370 vehicles. FG complements with a sizable order of 50, 420 vehicles. There's also Immigration, Customs, Prisons.

Thanks for the update.Even the older variant has two roof hatches as in pic below, you are correct. Roof gun mounts for new variant in militarized mode, one small PKM 7.62 LMG forward, one super small AGS-30 AGL rear, will be good firepower combo.

Those extra grade tyres you mentioned above will be added later this year, Proforce is reading your comment. Have you noticed Denel is taking product improvement advice from this thread?

jln115:

guessing you're not very happy about this?

Only worried about confusion. When all servicemen put on bullet proof vests it will cover the chest service-arm I.D. Troops can't identify who's navy or who's army anymore. I think the I.D. should add two more, upper arm band and frontal head gear/helmet. See that officer briefing his men, bullet proof vest covers his chest I.D. but upper arm and shoulder I.D. visible.

agaugust:


You need to move beyond your obsession with telling lies and deceiving innocent readers on this forum.

Post your citations' website names not weblinks to clutter this thread, thats what I did with defenceindustry daily. Give name of source, people can google it.

One single T-72 tank will destroy one hundred Badger IFVs in two hours, and the Badger cannot fight back or defend itself. Badger IFV fails to meet NATO standard of basic modernity.
.

What are you going to do when i post links for every single claim?

Are you going to aplogize?

Ps: look up the NATO definition before i am forced to embarras you

agaugust: Proforce is reading your comment. Have you noticed Denel is taking product improvement advice from this thread?

You have lost your damn mind??

Badger/Patria AMV is one of most modern APC in the world and its after all nicknamed The Green Demon by the Taliban.

It has more protection than Rooikat.

Technically, Badger could pack a 120 mm NATO cannon since it has considerably tougher structure than Rooikat.

Amphibious ability isnt relevant in todays warfare with UAVs lurking to spoil potential leverage.

agaugust:


You need to move beyond your obsession with telling lies and deceiving innocent readers on this forum.

Post your citations' website names not weblinks to clutter this thread, thats what I did with defenceindustry daily. Give name of source, people can google it.

One single T-72 tank will destroy one hundred Badger IFVs in two hours, and the Badger cannot fight back or defend itself. Badger IFV fails to meet NATO standard of basic modernity.
.

Non...sense.