The belief that God will punish unrepentant sinners in hellfire for eternity is a doctrine that is held among people of diverse religions and across various sects of the same religion. I would like for us to discuss the morality of this belief and see if we can come to any moral justification of eternal torture. Inorder words can a suitable contextual framework be found that justifies the evil of hell? For example killing another human being is evil but if the killing is framed in the context of defending one' s family from marauding bandits, then a case can be made that the love for family and the duty to protect that love justifies the use of evil in that particular situation.

Since the reason for opening this thread is to discuss the morality of hell and to see if it is compatible with the notion of God, any scriptures can be quoted from whichever religion one subsribes to including viewpoints from oral African religions are welcomed. It is assumed for the purpose of this discussion that hell is real, so it will be pointless and a waste of space to quote scriptures in support of the proposition that hell is real.
What our argument and scriptures (for those who chose to quote one) should attempt to do is make a case that justifies hellfire as morally right and compatible with the attributes of God, or morally wrong and incompatible with the attributes of God.

since we r not leaving this world with our bodies, what does the fire in hell want to burn?

lekkie073:
since we r not leaving this world with our bodies, what does the fire in hell want to burn?

The op is about whether hell assuming it exist is morally right or wrong. So if you believe sinners are going to hell explain why it doesn't make God a wicked monster. And if you don't belive hellfire exist make a case of why it's existence will mean that God is evil.

dorox:


The op is about whether hell assuming it exist is morally right or wrong. So if you believe sinners are going to hell explain why it doesn't make God a wicked monster.

It is all about the consequence of a choice. Would you say God should give Eternal rest to all? Yes but not all will receive it, what then?!

Scholar8200:
It is all about the consequence of a choice. Would you say God should give Eternal rest to all? Yes but not all will receive it, what then?!

So are you saying that the opportunity of having eternal bliss in heaving justifies eternal torture?

dorox:

So are you saying that the opportunity of having eternal bliss in heaving justifies eternal torture?

Justifies? A student has the choice to either pass or fail, and if the teacher does his job very well, he(teacher) is not to blame if one chooses not to pass!

point is, there are just two options and we have our free will. Just as it will be unjust to give a pass mark to a student who fails woefully...

Mtcheew . Bickering over obsolete arguments

Scholar8200:
Justifies? A student has the choice to either pass or fail, and if the teacher does his job very well, he(teacher) is not to blame if one chooses not to pass!

point is, there are just two options and we have our free will. Just as it will be unjust to give a pass mark to a student who fails woefully...

No one is disputing the fact that a teacher has the right to set an exam and to pass or fail his students according to their performance, what is in contention is the penalty for failure. Imagine being asked to write an exam where a failed result means that your eyes will be plucked out of their sockets and your four limbs will be chopped off. Would you say that is a fair exam? Hellfire is much worse than that.

KingEbukasBlog:
Mtcheew . Bickering over obsolete arguments

I am really trying to understand if people truly believe that the concept of hellfire can be justified on moral ground or it is just something that one think of as totally evil but accept the fact that since it is from God then it must be right. I would really welcome your contribution.

dorox:


No one is disputing the fact that a teacher has the right to set an exam and to pass or fail his students according to their performance, what is in contention is the penalty for failure. Imagine being asked to write an exam where a failed result means that your eyes will be plucked out of their sockets and your four limbs will be chopped off. Would you say that is a fair exam? Hellfire is much worse than that.

I understand, but remember that the penitentiary here was originally reserved for inveterate fiends, not man. However if knowing this we decide to still go against God, well remember that He is both a God of Love and justice.

Scholar8200:
I understand, but remember that the penitentiary here was originally reserved for inveterate fiends, not man. However if knowing this we decide to still go against God, well remember that He is both a God of Love and justice.

I understand what you are saying, but you still have not addressed the point raised in the op which is to give a reasonable justification for why it does not make God evil and wicked to have people burn in hellfire for eternity. If God did not create hell for man, it still does not change the fact that billions of humans will find themselves there if we go by the "broad is the road leading to destruction" rule of Jesus.

dorox:

I am really trying to understand if people truly believe that the concept of hellfire can be justified on moral ground or it is just something that one think of as totally evil but accept the fact that since it is from God then it must be right. I would really welcome your contribution.

Since God sees Hell as a condign punishment regardless of how venial the sin is , then I have no need to contravene . Laconically , the thread is a complete waste of lacuna in the religion section

lekkie073:
since we r not leaving this world with our bodies, what does the fire in hell want to burn?

Were you told that it's this flesh that the fire of hell will burn? Do you believe you are not just flesh? You are a spirit with a soul. Don't worry when you die, you'll understand.

dorox:

So are you saying that the opportunity of having eternal bliss in heaving justifies eternal torture?

What really happened to you? Why are you so bitter? How did God fail you?

dorox:

I am really trying to understand if people truly believe that the concept of hellfire can be justified on moral ground or it is just something that one think of as totally evil but accept the fact that since it is from God then it must be right. I would really welcome your contribution.

What do you know about hellfire for starters?

dorox:


I understand what you are saying, but you still have not addressed the point raised in the op which is to give a reasonable justification for why it does not make God evil and wicked to have people burn in hellfire for eternity. If God did not create hell for man, it still does not change the fact that billions of humans will find themselves there if we go by the "broad is the road leading to destruction" rule of Jesus.

Hahahahahahahaha. This guy. Why won't you talk about people enjoying in heaven for once? After all, they were all given the same opportunity to choose. One chose hellfire so he will burn. Why is that God's fault? See us here right now talking about this issue, why do you refuse to Accept Jesus and choose heaven? Why are you holding so tightly on hellfire? Do you think anything about it will change?
What business do you have with hellfire? Was it created for you? Are you Satan or a demon? Well, if you yoke yourself with them, where ever they go, you will go. Lekwa

KingEbukasBlog:


Since God sees Hell as a condign punishment regardless of how venial the sin is , then I have no need to contravene . Laconically , the thread is a complete waste of lacuna in the religion section

Akukwor

So the OP puts forth a perfectly legitimate question, with no sign of bias towards any position and welcomes responses from all perspectives, even acknowledging that the aim is not to dispute hell's existence.

And all he is met with are insufficient reasonings which resort to dogmatic assertions when substantiation is requested, accusations of being angry at God, ridicule, and denial of the value in his question.

This is unfortunately what tends to happen when you ask victims of extreme indoctrination to use their brains for anything other than reinforcing their pre-existing religious beliefs. If your questions might invoke any doubt in the supposed "perfection" of said deity then that is an insult, there is danger there and now they must defend the deity at all costs, like robots. So instead of answers, careful thought & consideration, you get dogged assertions, deflections and irrelevant insults as we see here.

OP I think you asked a very important question, unfortunately the people who need to consider it the most are the most brainwashed and thus the most likely to percieve your question as a threat & an insult for even being asked. Hopefully more open-minded theists respond to this thread and a productive discourse can be had.

cloudgoddess:
So the OP puts forth a perfectly legitimate question, with no sign of bias towards any position and welcomes responses from all perspectives, even acknowledging that the aim is not to dispute hell's existence.

And all he is met with are insufficient reasonings which resort to dogmatic assertions when substantiation is requested, accusations of being angry at God, ridicule, and denial of the value in his question.

This is unfortunately what tends to happen when you ask victims of extreme indoctrination to use their brains for anything other than reinforcing their pre-existing religious beliefs. If your questions might invoke any doubt in the supposed "perfection" of said deity then that is an insult, there is danger there and now they must defend the deity at all costs, like robots. So instead of answers, careful thought & consideration, you get dogged assertions, deflections and irrelevant insults as we see here.

OP I think you asked a very important question, unfortunately the people who need to consider it the most are the most brainwashed and thus the most likely to percieve your question as a threat & an insult for even being asked. Hopefully more open-minded theists respond to this thread and a productive discourse can be had.

A benighted atheist and her cavilings

analice107:

Were you told that it's this flesh that the fire of hell will burn? Do you believe you are not just flesh? You are a spirit with a soul. Don't worry when you die, you'll understand.

Atheists think its the flesh that would burn . That's why they would indite puerile petty doggerels in their attempt to mock God . Consciousness exist outside the physical body and would respond to the surroundings of the soul realms of afterlife .

analice107:


Akukwor

Aunty , ha ma di ife a n'ako . Ha nwere uburu isi ima ife a n'ako .

Hehehe

The idea that an all loving, all forgiving God would send people unfortunate enough not to believe in him to hellfire is morally reprehensible and does in fact make him a horrible monster.

Case 1.
People who have had absolutely no way at all in their lives of hearing the 'word of God', Perfectly good people that are better than 60% of today's so called Christians are going to end up in hell? Seriously? There's no way that's not wickedness. How could they have possibly even know about this 'gospel'. Imagine a lovely old Chinese lady born in a small Chinese village who has never seen the outside world before. She too will burn in hell? Or the people in North Korea who don't have access to Internet or news or television because of their leader. Them too will go to hell?


Case 2. Babies that are either aborted or dead prematurely. They too will go to hell? What of small children below 5 that don't understand the concept of God. They too will go to hell? They have souls don't they.

Case 3. Philanthropists and people who have dedicated their lives to the betterment of others who happen to be a different religion or have no religion will go to hell? People like Ellen DeGeneres, Malala Yousafzai, Ghandi etc will all burn in hell forever because of one insignificant reason?

Case 4. People who are indoctrinated from birth into another religion, something they had no choice in will lead them to hell? What if Muslims who will be stoned and killed if they dare convert? They too will still burn forever in hell because of the family 'God' supposedly predetermined them to live in?


What a wicked God chai
Besides Christians how do you know your hell is the real one? There are up to 1000 hells from different religions how do you know you won't just end up in one of them for choosing the wrong God?

analice107:


What really happened to you? Why are you so bitter? How did God fail you?

Hello my friend, thank you for your concern about my welfare, I am truly touched by it. Nothing happened to me, I am not bitter and God did not fail me. If anything my love for God have never been stronger.
God is an amorphous word, it means different things to different people. That is why I think it is less helpful to talk about God in a general sense as if He is the same person to each one of us and more useful to talk about our notion of God and the qualities we ascribe to Him.
So my friend, this op is not an attack on the notion that there is God, rather it is an attempt to understand if the particular notion of God that burns people in hellfire holds up to the qualities of a just and merciful God.

dorox:
The belief that God will punish unrepentant sinners in hellfire for eternity is a doctrine that is held among people of diverse religions and across various sects of the same religion. I would like for us to discuss the morality of this belief and see if we can come to any moral justification of eternal torture. Inorder words can a suitable contextual framework be found that justifies the evil of hell? For example killing another human being is evil but if the killing is framed in the context of defending one' s family from marauding bandits, then a case can be made that the love for family and the duty to protect that love justifies the use of evil in that particular situation.

Since the reason for opening this thread is to discuss the morality of hell and to see if it is compatible with the notion of God, any scriptures can be quoted from whichever religion one subsribes to including viewpoints from oral African religions are welcomed. It is assumed for the purpose of this discussion that hell is real, so it will be pointless and a waste of space to quote scriptures in support of the proposition that hell is real.
What our argument and scriptures (for those who chose to quote one) should attempt to do is make a case that justifies hellfire as morally right and compatible with the attributes of God, or morally wrong and incompatible with the attributes of God.

Hellfire or its concepts cannot be morally justified. Evidences of this fact is everywhere you look today. Proponents of hellfire either haven't sat down to reason well on the issue or they are credulous - believing anything.

I'm going to provide some evidence combining logic and the scriptures to further my point. Maybe I could turn the hose on hell and put out the fire.

This is the main reason why hellfire doesn't make moral sense:

IT LACKS DIVINE JUSTICE: God is a Lover of justice, the bible says. We are made in his image, so we care a great deal about justice too. Man acts on his sense of justice, the result is the justice system we have today.

If a person commits a crime, he undergoes trial in the law court, if he's found guilty he is punished according to his crime.

If you witnessed a court case where a young man is being sentenced to death for stealing 2 cubes of maggi, what would be your reaction? Obviously unjust. That doesn't happen with humans because we have an active sense of justice. But that is worse than what people believe God would do.

Humans only live 70 or 80 years. Regardless of the number of years they spent in doing wickedness, punishing them eternally is unjust. Since humans no matter how evil can do only a finite level of wickedness, sentencing them to eternal torment creates a disproportion between their crimes and the infinite penalty of hellfire.

The idea that a conscious creature should have to undergo physical and mental torture through unending time is profoundly disturbing, and the thought that this is inflicted upon them by divine decree offends my conviction about God's love.

Everlasting torment is intolerable from a moral point of view because it makes God into a bloodthirsty monster who maintains an everlasting Auschwits for victims whom he does not even allow to die.

How can persons possibly project a deity of such cruelty and vindictiveness?

dorox:

Hello my friend, thank you for your concern about my welfare, I am truly touched by it. Nothing happened to me, I am not bitter and God did not fail me. If anything my love for God has never been stronger.
God is an amorphous word, it means different things to different people. That is why I think it is less helpful to talk about God in a general sense as if He is the same person to each one of us and more useful to talk about our notion of God and the qualities we ascribe to Him.
So my friend, this op is not an attack on the notion that there is God, rather it is an attempt to understand if the particular notion of God that burns people in hellfire holds up to the qualities of a just and merciful God.

You confuse me, You said;
" God is amorphous, meaning different THINGS to different people, so we shouldn't talk about him as if he is the same person to each one of us". (If God are different things, we can't refer to them as him yea?).
If I understand you here, you are saying or implying that your God maybe different from my God right? If your god is a thing and mine is a he, then you have no business being part of this discussion. You know why? Yahweh is he who created hellfire, hence; this discourse is about him, not about any other God or thing.

Again, you wants God put on a crucible, with an attempt to understand if it's Just and Merciful for Him to burn people in hellfire.

Let's address you a little. Your notion of God is different from my notion of God it seems, that could mean that, we serve a different God, yea? If we serve a diff. God, does your God say he will burn you in hell? If your answer is no, then shouldn't you stick to the promise your God made you? Why get so bitter (you said you are not bitter, maybe you don't understand that term) and concerned about what Yahweh my God says? He is not your God right? So what he says should not concern you.
Listen, I have never and can never bother myself with reincarnation stuff or notion. It doesn't concern me, it doesn't apply to me. I will never loose sleep over what the New Age teaches, Never. I read their books to know about them, but outside that, nothing.
You said, you have never loved your God the way you do right now. Fine, why not lovingly enjoy its/his promises? Let hellfire be for us who believe in Yahweh.
But for the sake of argument, I'll need you to specifically point out the passage of the Bible which says Yahweh burns people in hellfire.
The last I check, people who are hell bound chose it. Even when people are screaming and shouting "don't go that way, it leads to hellfire", people still consciously and willingly go there.
We are clearly given the things that if done, sets us apart and kills the part of us that should enter into everlasting life. We are given the grace to be able to live right, but we need to make a choice, a conscious and willing choice to accept the free gift of the life in Christ.

Bros, Why won't you for once talk about this other road, which leads away from hellfire? For once, let's talk about it. It shouldn't always be hellfire and whether is Just or on what moral basis does God burn people in hellfire. Let's talk about this other way through Christ this one time.

You know what? This your anger against Yahweh(which happens not to be your God BTW) would have made mighty sense, if he didn't give us an alternative. If as man sinned (which you never mention) God allowed man to follow his new adopted master to where his Master was bound, then I would have agreed with you and said, "Where then is the mercy?" but Jesus is here and I have chosen that part.

Enough about Yahweh and hellfire for a while. What promises did your god give? There's no hellfire there? Maybe I should cross over and live my life as a like afterall, when I die, it ends there right?

analice107:

Hahahahahahahaha. This guy. Why won't you talk about people enjoying in heaven for once? After all, they were all given the same opportunity to choose. One chose hellfire so he will burn. Why is that God's fault? See us here right now talking about this issue, why do you refuse to Accept Jesus and choose heaven? Why are you holding so tightly on hellfire? Do you think anything about it will change?
What business do you have with hellfire? Was it created for you? Are you Satan or a demon? Well, if you yoke yourself with them, where ever they go, you will go. Lekwa

Permit me to use an illustration to show why I find the choice of eternal bliss in heaven and eternal torture in hellfire unfair.
There is this rich scientist called Jesus, on his way home from travel he found a frozen mass grave of perfectly preserved slaves that died some hundreds of years ago.
He brought all of them home with him and used his advaced scientific knowledge to revive them. Now the slaves were all happy in there new enviroment, living there was the best experirnce they have had despite the one or two chores that they were obligated to do in their masters manshion.
Then one evening after dinner, Jesus gathered all the slaves together and told them that he loves them so dearly and he wants the to come to the upper mashion were it is absolute bliss, but first they must obey all his lower house rules and any slave that fails to do so will be thrown into the dungeon where they will be tormented day and night forever.
On hearing this one of the slaves objected to the master saying " we were resting in the grave when you found us and gave us life, you said you did it out of love and we thank you for it. But we will rather you send us back to our frozen grave if you find us lacking than to torture us."
My point is that if you gave life to humans, then you have every right to take it back, but to toture what you created for eternity is just sick.

KingEbukasBlog:

Aunty , ha ma di ife a n'ako . Ha nwere uburu isi ima ife a n'ako .
Hehehe

You don finish me for me for Here Ooo.

KingEbukasBlog:


Atheists think its the flesh that would burn . That's why they would indite puerile petty doggerels in their attempt to mock God . Consciousness exist outside the physical body and would respond to the surroundings of the soul realms of afterlife .

On this note, am incline to think that JW are subtle and undercover Atheists.

analice107:


You confuse me, You said;
" God is amorphous, meaning different THINGS to different people, so we shouldn't talk about him as if he is the person to each one of us". (If God are different things, we can't refer to them as him yea?).
If I understand you here, you are saying or implying that your God maybe different from my God right? If your god is a thing and mine is a he, then you have no business being part of this discussion. You know why? Yahweh is he who created hellfire, hence; this discourse is about him, not about any other God or thing.

Again, you wants God put on a crucible, with an attempt to understand if it's Just and Merciful for Him to burn people in hellfire.

Let's address you a little. Your notion of God is different from my notion of God it seems, that could mean that, we serve a different God, yea? If we serve a diff. God, does your God say he will burn you in hell? If your answer is no, then shouldn't you stick to the promise your God made you? Why get so bitter (you said you are not bitter, maybe you don't understand that term) and concerned about what Yahweh my God says? He is not your God right? So what he says should not concern you.
Listen, I have never and can never bother myself with reincarnation stuff or notion. It doesn't concern me, it doesn't apply to me. I will never loose sleep over what the New Age teaches, Never. I read their books to know about them, but outside that, nothing.
You said, you have never loved your God the way you do right now. Fine, why not lovingly enjoy its/his promises? Let hellfire be for us who believe in Yahweh.
But for the sake of argument, I'll need you to specifically point out the passage of the Bible which says Yahweh burns people in hellfire.
The last I check, people who are hell bound chose it. Even when people are screaming and shouting "don't go that way, it leads to hellfire", people still consciously and willingly go there.
We are clearly given the things that if done, sets us apart and kills the part of us that should enter into everlasting life. We are given the grace to be able to live right, but we need to make a choice, a conscious and willing choice to accept the free gift of the life in Christ.

Bros, Why won't you for once talk about this other road, which leads away from hellfire? For once, let's talk about it. It shouldn't always be hellfire and whether is Just or on what moral basis does God burn people in hellfire. Let's talk about this other way through Christ this one time.

You know what? This your anger against Yahweh(which happens not to be your God BTW) would have made mighty sense, if he didn't give us an alternative. If as man sinned (which you never mention) God allowed man to follow his new adopted master to where his Master was bound, then I would have agreed with you and said, "Where then is the mercy?" but Jesus is here and I have chosen that part.

Enough about Yahweh and hellfire for a while. What promises did your god give? There's no hellfire there? Maybe I should cross over and live my life as a like afterall, when I die, it ends there right?

My God also goes by the name Yaweh, but He is different from your Yaweh with regards to how much He values life. He has given the precious gift of life to us all in limited quantity and those who use theirs well will be rewarded with unlimited life while those who used theirs foolishly will have it taken away from them.
He doesn't waste life on sinners just to watch them burning in hell.

analice107:

On this note, am incline to think that JW are subtle and undercover Atheists.

Very true .

dorox:

My God also goes by the name Yaweh, but He is different from your Yaweh with regards to how much He values life. He has given the precious gift of life to us all in limited quantity and those who use theirs well will be rewarded with unlimited life while those who used theirs foolishly will have it taken away from them.
He doesn't waste life on sinners just to watch them burning in hell.

Oh wait ... Are you Jehovah witness ?

dorox:


Permit me to use an illustration to show why I find the choice of eternal bliss in heaven and eternal torture in hellfire unfire.
There is this rich scientist called Jesus, on his way home from travel he found a frozen mass grave of perfectly preserved slaves that died some hundreds of years ago.
He brought all of them home with him and used his advaced scientific knowledge to revive them. Now the slaves were all happy in there new enviroment, living there was the best experirnce they have had despite the one or two chores that they were obligated to do in their masters manshion.
Then one evening after dinner, Jesus gathered all the slaves together and told them that he loves them so dearly and he wants the to come to the upper mashion were it is absolute bliss, but first they must obey all his lower house rules and any slave that fails to do so will be thrown into the dungeon where they will be tormented day and night forever.
On hearing this one of the slaves objected to the master saying " we were resting in the grave when you found us and gave us life, you said you did it out of love and we thank you for it. So we will rather you send us back to our frozen grave if you find us lacking than to torture us."
My point is that if you gave life to humans, then you have every right to take it back, but to toture what you created for eternity is just sick.

Hahahahahahahaha. Am still reeling with laughter. So as far as you go, man should be without responsibilities Yea? You illustration is so biased. You talk about fairness but you can't even attempt to pretend to be fair yourself.
You started your illustration from the dead being discovered, what put them there in the first place? I told you sir, we have talked so much about God and his hellfire, let's talk about Man's responsibilities and choices for once, Can we manage that?