dorox:

My God also goes by the name Yaweh, but He is different from your Yaweh with regards to how much He values life. He has given the precious gift of life to us all in limited quantity and those who use theirs well will be rewarded with unlimited life while those who used theirs foolishly will have it taken away from them.
He doesn't waste life on sinners just to watch them burning in hell.

analice107:


Hahahahahahahaha. Am still reeling with laughter. So as far as you go, man should be without responsibilities Yea? You illustration is so biased. You talk about fairness but you can't even attempt to pretend to be fair yourself.
You started your illustration from the dead being discovered, what put them there in the first place? I told you sir, we have talked so much about God and his hellfire, let's talk about Man's responsibilities and choices for once, Can we manage that?

analice107:

Your God is Yahweh? What??. And speak about him with such venom and condemnation? Icantbilivit.

dorox:


I think my illustration is very fair and unbiased. Before Adam was created the bible tells us that he was nowhere, just collection of lifeless dust being swept by the wind on the earth's surface. The same applies to you and I, before we were born we never existed somewhete else. So how can it be fair to lovingly give life to and make that life miserable because the person chose to rebel?
Surely if life is a gift, then as free humans we should have the option to say no thank you for that gift and become the dust we once were.

dorox:

My statements so far have been benign in my opinion I fail to see the venom you speak of. I only said that I find the notion of that immortal souls will be tortured eternally for committing finite sins is what I find reprehensible. The fact that some people call that deity Yaweh does not change the nature of the act ascribed to Him.

TheProphetess:
The idea that an all loving, all forgiving God would send people unfortunate enough not to believe in him to hellfire is morally reprehensible and does in fact make him a horrible monster.

Case 1.
People who have had absolutely no way at all in their lives of hearing the 'word of God', Perfectly good people that are better than 60% of today's so called Christians are going to end up in hell? Seriously? There's no way that's not wickedness. How could they have possibly even know about this 'gospel'. Imagine a lovely old Chinese lady born in a small Chinese village who has never seen the outside world before. She too will burn in hell? Or the people in North Korea who don't have access to Internet or news or television because of their leader. Them too will go to hell?


Case 2. Babies that are either aborted or dead prematurely. They too will go to hell? What of small children below 5 that don't understand the concept of God. They too will go to hell? They have souls don't they.

Case 3. Philanthropists and people who have dedicated their lives to the betterment of others who happen to be a different religion or have no religion will go to hell? People like Ellen DeGeneres, Malala Yousafzai, Ghandi etc will all burn in hell forever because of one insignificant reason?

Case 4. People who are indoctrinated from birth into another religion, something they had no choice in will lead them to hell? What if Muslims who will be stoned and killed if they dare convert? They too will still burn forever in hell because of the family 'God' supposedly predetermined them to live in?


What a wicked God chai
Besides Christians how do you know your hell is the real one? There are up to 1000 hells from different religions how do you know you won't just end up in one of them for choosing the wrong God?

analice107:


How many times have I asked you? Would you have wished that man was without responsibilities and without Willpower?

analice107:


Would you have wished that man had no responsibilities or choices?
In every game, they most be two players, so far we have been x-raying only one player, God. Come on, let's x-ray Man if we fine him not deserving of his sins, then let's join hands and crucify this cruel God for his injustices. Come on Prophetess let's do it.

BIBLESPEAKS:



Hellfire or its concepts cannot be morally justified. Evidences of this fact is everywhere you look today. Proponents of hellfire either haven't sat down to reason well on the issue or they are credulous - believing anything.

I'm going to provide some evidence combining logic and the scriptures to further my point. Maybe I could turn the hose on hell and put out the fire.

This is the main reason why hellfire doesn't make moral sense:

IT LACKS DIVINE JUSTICE: God is a Lover of justice, the bible says. We are made in his image, so we care a great deal about justice too. Man acts on his sense of justice, the result is the justice system we have today.

If a person commits a crime, he undergoes trial in the law court, if he's found guilty he is punished according to his crime.

If you witnessed a court case where a young man is being sentenced to death for stealing 2 cubes of maggi, what would be your reaction? Obviously unjust. That doesn't happen with humans because we have an active sense of justice. But that is worse than what people believe God would do.

Humans only live 70 or 80 years. Regardless of the number of years they spent in doing wickedness, punishing them eternally is unjust. Since humans no matter how evil can do only a finite level of wickedness, sentencing them to eternal torment creates a disproportion between their crimes and the infinite penalty of hellfire.

.

The idea that a conscious creature should have to undergo physical and mental torture through unending time is profoundly disturbing, and the thought that this is inflicted upon them by divine decree offends my conviction about God's love
Everlasting torment is intolerable from a moral point of view because it makes God into a bloodthirsty monster who maintains an everlasting Auschwits for victims whom he does not even allow to die.

How can persons possibly project a deity of such cruelty and vindictiveness?

dorox:


I have never implied nor do I wish for one moment that man was without responsibilties and willpower, so I fail to see the relevance of your question.

TheProphetess:



But a baby or a small child is not capable of making such choices or decisions
Someone who has never had the oppurtunity to hear the gospel has no choice.
If you were born on a desert island and had no access to bible for your whole life and you go to hell who's fault is it? Your's or the god that placed you there?

dorox:

My statements so far have been benign in my opinion I fail to see the venom you speak of. I only said that I find the notion that immortal souls will be tortured eternally for committing finite sins reprehensible. The fact that some people call that deity Yaweh does not change the nature of the act ascribed to Him.

dorox:
You told you daughter to always be good and not steal, that if she does you will put pepper in her eyes and burn her hands with fire. She disobeys you repeatedly, so one day after catching her red handed you decided that enough was enough and went ahead to pour pepper into her eyes and burn her hands in fire.
If onlookers should call you a wicked mother for that act would they be wrong? Would you see their objection to such barbaric punishment for petty theft as an indivtion that they condole stealing, or as the fact that they think the punishment is not comensurate to the crime?
Lastly, would you accuse them of not wanting your child to take responsibilty for her actions?

analice107:

What if we look at it this way?
Am a mother, Angela is my daughter. I discover Angie pilfer, I call Angie in and tell her, my daughter, whatever I have is yours, anytime you need anything, come to me, pls don't take what belongs to others without letting them know. When they loose their stuff, it hurts them because they need their stuff. Even if it's mine, still tell me, I won't stop you from take g it, just let me know, beside stealing is very wrong, it brings shame and People would find it hard to trust you, and you need people to trust, pls my daughter don't again okay? Angie says, yes mummy.
But anytime Angie sees something and when no one is around, she will take it. Little by little it grew. When she was too young to understand the consequences, I talked to her, repeatedly. When she grew older I spanked her for others to see am not condoning her pilfering. Yet, this child won't stop. Everyday neighbours cry out because Angie haven followed their kids to their houses Angie had stolen their money.
My home is now known as a home of thieves. Now anytime something gets missing, all fingers are pointed towards my house.
One day, I couldn't take it anymore, I wear my shorts and tie my wrapper firmly on top of it and say, Angie today go be today. Enough of the embarrassment and shame then I get down on her real good. Call me whatever you like, that's your business.

Let me tell you something about my home. You do not, I repeat, do not, pick anything be it money or any other thing and bringing it home to my mother's house. When I was less than 10 was when I learned that lesson, I picked money,
No, I didn't steal it, I picked it, and I thought I was a good child so rough it back home a showed my mum, since it was the first time, My mum followed me to where I said I picked it, she said drop it there, I did, we went back home. Another time, I picked money again, I knew if I showed her, I was going to lose it, so I had it. I bought something with it and I was caught. Gracious Lord!!!! Till I leave this earth I won't forget what my mum did to me. What you described is minimal. She tied me up with a robe and actually put that pepper in my Anus and eyes and kept me in the hot sun, all the while screaming on top of her voice, no child of mine will be a thief. But I was crying and saying, I didn't steal it, she said, you will steal if you don't stop now.
When I was released, I advised myself against picking other things. Till this day, I don't pick things on the road.

analice107:

What if we look at it this way?
Am a mother, Angela is my daughter. I discover Angie pilfer, I call Angie in and tell her, my daughter, whatever I have is yours, anytime you need anything, come to me, pls don't take what belongs to others without letting them know. When they loose their stuff, it hurts them because they need their stuff. Even if it's mine, still tell me, I won't stop you from take g it, just let me know, beside stealing is very wrong, it brings shame and People would find it hard to trust you, and you need people to trust, pls my daughter don't again okay? Angie says, yes mummy.
But anytime Angie sees something and when no one is around, she will take it. Little by little it grew. When she was too young to understand the consequences, I talked to her, repeatedly. When she grew older I spanked her for others to see am not condoning her pilfering. Yet, this child won't stop. Everyday neighbours cry out because Angie haven followed their kids to their houses Angie had stolen their money.
My home is now known as a home of thieves. Now anytime something gets missing, all fingers are pointed towards my house.
One day, I couldn't take it anymore, I wear my shorts and tie my wrapper firmly on top of it and say, Angie today go be today. Enough of the embarrassment and shame then I get down on her real good. Call me whatever you like, that's your business.

Let me tell you something about my home. You do not, I repeat, do not, pick anything be it money or any other thing and bringing it home to my mother's house. When I was less than 10 was when I learned that lesson, I picked money,
No, I didn't steal it, I picked it, and I thought I was a good child so rough it back home a showed my mum, since it was the first time, My mum followed me to where I said I picked it, she said drop it there, I did, we went back home. Another time, I picked money again, I knew if I showed her, I was going to lose it, so I had it. I bought something with it and I was caught. Gracious Lord!!!! Till I leave this earth I won't forget what my mum did to me. What you described is minimal. She tied me up with a robe and actually put that pepper in my Anus and eyes and kept me in the hot sun, all the while screaming on top of her voice, no child of mine will be a thief. But I was crying and saying, I didn't steal it, she said, you will steal if you don't stop now.
When I was released, I advised myself against picking other things. Till this day, I don't pick things on the road.

analice107:

Let me tell you something about my home. You do not, I repeat, do not, pick anything be it money or any other thing and bringing it home to my mother's house. When I was less than 10 was when I learned that lesson, I picked money,
No, I didn't steal it, I picked it, and I thought I was a good child so rough it back home a showed my mum, since it was the first time, My mum followed me to where I said I picked it, she said drop it there, I did, we went back home. Another time, I picked money again, I knew if I showed her, I was going to lose it, so I had it. I bought something with it and I was caught. Gracious Lord!!!! Till I leave this earth I won't forget what my mum did to me. What you described is minimal. She tied me up with a robe and actually put that pepper in my Anus and eyes and kept me in the hot sun, all the while screaming on top of her voice, no child of mine will be a thief. But I was crying and saying, I didn't steal it, she said, you will steal if you don't stop now.
When I was released, I advised myself against picking other things. Till this day, I don't pick things on the road.

Scholar8200:
Now dorox, would you consider it justice if the thief on the cross was granted an eternal bliss? While the other that railed on Jesus ends in eternal destruction?

God gave a condition, how many times did Adam and Eve need to flout it to face the consequences ?

Kindly answer these.

Theophinio:
These things are spirit, they can't be comprehended with the flesh
PEACE

cloudgoddess:

And not once throughout your life have you considered other ways she could have effectively taught you that lesson? Burning you and potentially causing serious irritation to delicate body tissues, was necessary for your to learn to respect peoples' things? Your mother was abusive and probably borderline psychotic, and you rejoice for it. This clarifies so much about your way of thinking. You've been desensitized to abuse, so understandably your sense of justice is skewed and inhumane.

And on top of that, this analogy is still lacking because it does not even remotely reflect the hell situation in severity or implication. A more equal comparison would be, instead of putting pepper in your eyes and anus ( ), your mother splashing petrol on your eyes and anus, lighting them on fire, and repeating this process for literal infinity, with no chance of you returning to a state of non-suffering. Repeated pain and torture for the rest of existence, far longer than any human lifespan. Eternal punishment for a finite crime.

dorox:

They were both deserving of death. In fact we all are deserving of death after our first parents Adam and Eve sinned against God, and brought death into the world of man. But out of the underserved kindness and love God have for the world He sent His Son Jesus Christ to ransome us from our enslavement to sin so that by exercising faith in him we might not perish but be given everlasting life.
So to recap, the wages of sin is death and we are all sinners and are bound to die, whether at the cross, or an accident on the road, or via an illness or through old age, we are all set to die from the day we are born because everyone of us was born a sinner. No amount of self righteousness can ever redeem us from our sin.
Going back to your question, it wasn't justice that made Jesus to promise paradise to the remorseful thief, it was mercy. And it is this same mercy that Jesus has extended to all those who believe in him.
The wicked thief simply paid for his sin with his life. While the remorseful thief had his sin paid for with Jusus' life.

dorox:

They were both deserving of death. In fact we all are deserving of death after our first parents Adam and Eve sinned against God, and brought death into the world of man. But out of the underserved kindness and love God have for the world He sent His Son Jesus Christ to ransome us from our enslavement to sin so that by exercising faith in him we might not perish but be given everlasting life.
So to recap, the wages of sin is death and we are all sinners and are bound to die, whether at the cross, or an accident on the road, or via an illness or through old age, we are all set to die from the day we are born because everyone of us was born a sinner. No amount of self righteousness can ever redeem us from our sin.
Going back to your question, it wasn't justice that made Jesus to promise paradise to the remorseful thief, it was mercy. And it is this same mercy that Jesus has extended to all those who believe in him.
The wicked thief simply paid for his sin with his life. While the remorseful thief had his sin paid for with Jusus' life.

analice107:

Very good responds. But I have one question.
When you said the wages of sin is death. What death do you mean? Is it the death of the flesh? If yes, what sin did Jesus commit to die that dead?

analice107:

Very good responds. But I have one question.
When you said the wages of sin is death. What death do you mean? Is it the death of the flesh? If yes, what sin did Jesus commit to die that dead?

dorox:

You tell me if you know the answer to your question. I created this thread inorder to get a better understanding of why hell was created, because ip till now the reason for its creation eludes me.

analice107:

So you have been losing sleep over something you don't even know anything about? You have called God all manner of names over something you don't know?
Lolzzzz.

dorox:

I have never lost one second of sleep over hell since I discarded the belief. To say that something eludes you in the context I used it means that you find it senseless and useless.