DoctorAlien:


Who told you that there is superiority and inferiority among the triune GOD? Does the Bible say that any among the three Persons of the Trinity is superior while another is inferior?

1. The scriptures never said anything about three persons in a triune God!
2. The scriptures never said anything about the trinity
3. I've shown on this thread with scriptures and explanation where Jehovah had describe jesus(more than once) as his servant,(no one has said I was wrong)
4. I've shown where jesus described the father as his God or "my God".
5. I've shown where jesus said several times that he was SENT by the father.
6. I've shown where jesus said he does what the father commands him to do
7. I've shown where jesus said "the father is greater than he is"
8. I've shown where jesus told us where his power and authority come from.
9. even the holy spirit that was poured out did not come directly from jesus, he had to request it from the father!
10. I've shown where God, being described as most high, the highest, commands jesus to sit at his right hand

sir, I don't think one should now have to start checking if the scriptures directly said one is superior and the other is inferior.
plus read :
1Co 15:27, 28For God “subjected all things under his feet.” But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that this does not include the One who subjected all things to him.28But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone.

1Co 11:3But I want you to know that the head of every man is the Christ; in turn, the head of a woman is the man; [color=red]in turn, the head of the Christ is God.

dolphinheart:
answer : Jesus Christ

You agreed that Satan was tempting Jesus Christ, and Christ told him not to tempt the Lord his GOD. There is only one meaning to that: Jesus Christ is the LORD his GOD.

dolphinheart:

at the beginning of the creation of God
Pr 8:22Jehovah "produced" me as the beginning of his way, The earliest of his achievements of long ago.

Which version of the Bible used the word "produced" in Prov. 8:22?

Secondly, Prov. 8:22 was talking about wisdom, not Jesus Christ. Check verse 12 to see that. GOD created every thing with wisdom; indeed, He is a wise GOD. He is the origin of wisdom.

Now it is clear to me that you have turned away from Bible teachings, in that you said Jesus Christ has a beginning. You said that the beginning of Christ is the beginning of creation. Let's see what the Bible says: "And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was" Jn. 17:5

The Scripture clearly asserts that even before creation, Jesus was. Again, the Scriptures prove you wrong.

DoctorAlien:
Dolphinheart,

If you say Jesus is not equal to GOD the Father, why did Jesus make this statement: "...Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM " Jn. 8:58 ?

the words "I am" is just part of the statement "verily, verily, I say unto you, before Abraham was, I am".
jesus was simply telling them he existed before Abraham, go look at the Greek words translated to "I am" and you will see it, expecially the Greek word "eimi".

look at the context, jesus reply has to do with age , and not identity.
furthermore, other persons in the scriptures are recorded to have said "I am" it does not mean they are also God or does it?

Explain the action of the Jews in verse 59 of that same chapter.

got this from a book , but it best explains and anwers your question. You can also read those scriptures to comfirm

"Still in Jerusalem for the Festival of Tabernacles (or, Booths), Jesus goes on teaching vital truths. Some Jews present had just said to him: “We are Abraham’s offspring and never have been slaves.” Jesus responds: “I know that you are Abraham’s offspring. But you are seeking to kill me, because my word makes no progress among you. I speak the things I have seen while with my Father, but you do the things you have heard from your father.”— John 8:33, 37, 38

Jesus’ point is simple: His Father is different from theirs. Unaware of what Jesus means, the Jews repeat their claim: “Our father is Abraham.” ( John 8:39; Isaiah 41:
They are literally his descendants. So they feel that they are of the same faith as God’s friend Abraham.

However, Jesus gives a shocking reply: “If you were Abraham’s children, you would be doing the works of Abraham.” Indeed, a real son imitates his father. “But now you are seeking to kill me,” Jesus continues, “a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do this.” Then Jesus makes the puzzling statement: “You are doing the works of your father.”— . John 8:39-41

The Jews still do not grasp to whom Jesus is referring. They claim that they are legitimate sons, saying: “We were not born from immorality; we have one Father, God.” Is God really their Father, though? “If God were your Father,” Jesus says, “you would love me, for I came from God and I am here. I have not come of my own initiative, but that One sent me.” Jesus asks a question and answers it himself: “Why do you not understand what I am saying? Because you cannot listen to my word.”— . John 8:41-43

Jesus has tried to show what the consequences of rejecting him are. But now he pointedly says: “You are from your father the Devil, and you wish to do the desires of your father.” What is their father like? Jesus identifies him clearly: “That one was a murderer when he began, and he did not stand fast in the truth.” Jesus adds: “The one who is from God listens to the sayings of God. This is why you do not listen, because you are not from God.”— John 8:44, 47
.
That condemnation angers the Jews, who answer: “Are we not right in saying, ‘You are a Samaritan and have a demon’?” By calling Jesus “a Samaritan,” they are expressing contempt for him. But Jesus ignores their slur, responding: “I do not have a demon, but I honor my Father, and you dishonor me.” That this is a serious matter can be seen by Jesus’ startling promise: “If anyone observes my word, he will never see death at all.” He does not mean that the apostles and others who follow him will literally never die. Rather, they will never see eternal destruction, “the second death,” with no hope of a resurrection.— John 8:48-51; Revelation 21:8

But the Jews take Jesus’ words literally, saying: “Now we do know that you have a demon. Abraham died, also the prophets, but you say, ‘If anyone observes my word, he will never taste death at all.’ You are not greater than our father Abraham, who died, are you? . . . Who do you claim to be?”— John 8:52, 53
.
It is obvious that Jesus is making the point that he is the Messiah. But rather than directly answer their question about his identity, he says: “If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father who glorifies me, the one who you say is your God. Yet you have not known him, but I know him. And if I said I do not know him, I would be like you, a liar.”— . john 8:54, 55

Jesus now refers back to the example of their faithful forefather: “Abraham your father rejoiced greatly at the prospect of seeing my day, and he saw it and rejoiced.” Yes, believing God’s promise, Abraham looked forward to the arrival of the Messiah. “You are not yet 50 years old, and still you have seen Abraham?” the Jews respond in disbelief. Jesus answers: “Most truly I say to you, before Abraham came into existence, I have been.”(depending on translation)He is referring to his prehuman existence as a mighty spirit in heaven.— . john 8:56-58

The Jews, enraged by Jesus’ claim to have lived before Abraham, get ready to stone him. But Jesus leaves unharmed.

Dolphinheart,

You said that Jesus has a beginning and that that beginning was at the creation.

Here is what the Bible says about Christ: "...and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true GOD, and eternal life." 1 Jn. 5:20

The Bible calls Jesus the true GOD, and refers to him as ETERNAL life. Jesus is eternal.

If you still think Jesus has beginning, check the meaning of the word "eternal".

DoctorAlien

DoctorAlien:


I think at this point we need to rephrase the argument: is the argument about the concept of Trinity and the GOD-status of Jesus or is it about whether Jesus is called Father of all?

We know that GOD the Father, the first Person of the Trinity, is the Father of all. He is the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is GOD the Son, coeternal with GOD the Father. The Holy Spirit is the third Person of the Trinity. He is GOD, equally coeternal with the Father and the Son. There are not three GODs; There is one GOD.

The Bible says so.

The focus of the Op is on who did the scripture spelled out as the " One God " . you can't just use your mouth to say three persons are One God when there isn't one single scripture that said so.

Who is the One God ? Eph 4:6 use a phrase that will help us identify who , it says. " One God and Father of ALL "

If I may ask you : who is the Father of ALL ? This is the only one authoritatively spelled out in the scripture as the One God.

who is the Father of ALL ?

dolphinheart:
go look at the Greek words translated to "I am" and you will see it, expecially the Greek word "eimi".

Hitherto you have told many lies, and this is one of them. "I AM" translates "ego eimi" in Greek and not "eimi". This is the same name GOD proclaimed to Moses, and Jesus takes it as his name. What can that mean? He is equal to GOD the Father.

Stop using puerile logic here. Does the fact that people use "I am" today mean that "I AM" is no longer GOD's name?

Moreover, if Jesus was merely speaking of His existence before Abraham and not taking GOD's name, the Bible would have translated the correct sentence with concord. Do you notice that by the rules of concord, this sentence "before Abraham, I am" is wrong? By the rules of concord, the correct sentence is "before Abraham, I was".

But the Bible reads "I AM" because Jesus qualified himself with GOD's own name. He is equal with GOD the Father.

Dolphinheart,

You implied that the Jews tried to kill Jesus because he told them that "His Father is different from theirs."

Let us see what the Bible says is the reason why the Jews tried to kill Jesus: "Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he...said also that GOD was his Father, making himself equal with GOD. " Jn. 5:18.

Here, the Bible unequivocally states that Jesus made Himself equal with GOD.

dolphinheart:
3. I've shown on this thread with scriptures and explanation where Jehovah had describe jesus(more than once) as his servant,(no one has said I was wrong)

"Who, being in the form of GOD, thought it not robbery to be equal with GOD: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant... " Phil. 2:6-7

Clearly, Jesus is equal with GOD but He chose to make himself a servant. And since he obeyed GOD faithfully, He could be rightly referred to as GOD's servant. He also served humanity. So, Jesus took servanthood upon Himself. He made himself a servant.

.

DoctorAlien:


Hitherto you have told many lies, and this is one of them. "I AM" translates "ego eimi" in Greek and not "eimi". This is the same name GOD proclaimed to Moses, and Jesus takes it as his name. What can that mean? He is equal to GOD the Father.

Stop using puerile logic here. Does the fact that people use "I am" today mean that "I AM" is no longer GOD's name?

Moreover, if Jesus was merely speaking of His existence before Abraham and not taking GOD's name, the Bible would have translated the correct sentence with concord. Do you notice that by the rules of concord, this sentence "before Abraham, I am" is wrong? By the rules of concord, the correct sentence is "before Abraham, I was".

But the Bible reads "I AM" because Jesus qualified himself with GOD's own name. He is equal with GOD the Father.

Na " ego eimi" God tell moses ? moses hear Greek ?

DoctorAlien:


Good. You agree that Jesus is GOD.

sir you saw what I wrote, pls don't alter it

Let us now check the dictionary meaning of the word "almighty":

1. having complete power; omnipotent. (Oxford dictionaries)
2. having unlimited power (dictionary.com)

Now, I have a question for you: is Jesus Christ's power limited?

simple answer(though still complicated) : yes!
why?, as long as you are subjected to someone, as long as someone is your head, as long as someone commands you, as long as you do the will of someone, you are not as powerful as that someone. so despite Jesus having very great power and authority, he is not almighty God.
remember, Jesus himself stated that he was given these authority and power

Ps 110:1Jehovah declared to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand Until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.”
Ps 110:2Jehovah will extend the scepter of your power out of Zion, saying: “Go subduing in the midst of your enemies.”
compare with this
Mt 26:64Jesus said to him: “You yourself said it. But I say to you: From now on you will see the Son of man sitting at the right hand of power and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

Ps 83:18May people know that you, whose name is Jehovah, You alone are the Most High over all the earth.

Re 5:12and they were saying with a loud voice: “The Lamb who was slaughtered is worthy to receive the power and riches and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and blessing.”[/b]

only Jehovah is the most, only Jehovah is said to be the Almighty God. use of " almighty" rather than " almighty God" will not help.

DoctorAlien:

So, are you saying Jesus is not omnipresent?

what is your definition of omnipresent?

dolphinheart:
simple answer(though still complicated) : yes!

You said that Jesus' power is limited. This in itself is a sacrilege. The Scripture will once again prove you wrong: "And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth." Matt. 28:18.

If Jesus has all the power in Heaven and in earth, how is His power limited?

Even if you employ multitudes of words, they cannot obfuscate what the Scripture clearly teaches.

DoctorAlien:


You agreed that Satan was tempting Jesus Christ, and Christ told him not to tempt the Lord his GOD. There is only one meaning to that: Jesus Christ is the LORD his GOD.

did you read what Satan said in verse 5 and 6, pls explain it.

satan was tempting Jesus Christ to test HIS GOD!, if Jesus carries out that temptation, who will be tested, Jesus or his father who had made the statement that the devil is using?

Jozzy4:

Na " ego eimi" God tell moses ? moses hear Greek ?

GOD didn't tell Moses "I AM" either. GOD didn't speak english to Moses.
What is your point?

DoctorAlien:


I think at this point we need to rephrase the argument: is the argument about the concept of Trinity and the GOD-status of Jesus or is it about whether Jesus is called Father of all?

We know that GOD the Father, the first Person of the Trinity, is the Father of all. He is the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is GOD the Son, coeternal with GOD the Father. The Holy Spirit is the third Person of the Trinity. He is GOD, equally coeternal with the Father and the Son. There are not three GODs; There is one GOD.

The Bible says so.

The bold is the one God not trinity! Cleared

dolphinheart:

what is your definition of omnipresent?

Check your dictionary. Whatever it says omnipresent means, that is my definition of omnipresent.

Now, answer the question: are you saying that Jesus is not omnipresent?

dolphinheart:

did you read what Satan said in verse 5 and 6, pls explain it.

satan was tempting Jesus Christ to test HIS GOD!, if Jesus carries out that temptation, who will be tested, Jesus or his father who had made the statement that the devil is using?

Is anything ambigous about matt. 4:5-6? Jesus is the Son of GOD. GOD the Son. Everybody knows that.

So, the temptation of Jesus Christ has now become "the temptation of Jesus to test GOD"?

Even if you say that Jesus was referring to GOD the Father when He used "the LORD thy GOD" in Matt. 4:7, then you mean that Jesus told Himself "Thou shalt not tempt the LORD thy GOD" because Satan wasn't tempting GOD the Father. But we know from the same verse that Jesus didn't make that statement to Himself but to Satan.

You constantly contradict both yourself and the Scripture.

johnw74:


see how false jw dolphinheart and all fales jw's twist the scriptures-lie

the word Jehovah is not mentioned in any of those verses,
the greek that "Lord" comes from is "kurios"
which is often used for Jesus

Mar 12:36 For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD (kurios) said to my Lord (kurios), Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.

Both Father and Son are called "kurios"

kurios - supreme in authority, God

Father and Son is God as is said in so many verses which I have posted
and will post again if anyone hasn't seen them.


Mat 4:1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.

Mat 4:7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

Verse 1, it is Jesus that is to be tempted
verse 7, it is the one being tempted that is the Lord thy God.

and there is no disputing that jesus is God

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

I know you don't believe that verse, I can post many more just like that one which you won't believe also


Because they are not spiritually discerned, it is the way of the cults to reduce biblical truth to make God comprehensible and understandable by their minds. To this end, they subject God's word to their own reasoning and end in error.

1Co_2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

1.Ps 110:1Jehovah declared to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand Until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.”
is the above translation correct or wrong?

2.you could not state what the temptation was about, I stated it.

3. pls tell, why is one "kurios" capitalised and the second kurios is not capitalised, secondly, are the two kurios referring to same person?

4. where did you get it that kurios means supreme in authority,God

5. Jesus said " it is written", where was it written? De 6:16
what does that verse say?
“You must not put Jehovah your God to the test the way you put him to the test at Masʹsah.

solite3:
you forgot the part that says the lord is that spirit
The spirit of God is the spirit of Jesus so, Jesus is God
But also Jesus is a man, that is why he had to be given authority.
So ur argument is lame

pls tell, is the spirit of God the holy spirit.
always show where you get things from so that anyone interested could crosscheck, pls show the part that says "the Lord is that spirit".

you respond to a post directed at someone else, yet you could not talk about the scriptures quoted their!

dolphinheart:
2.you could not state what the temptation was about, I stated it.

Satan tempted Jesus to see if Jesus would obey him i.e. fall into sin. The aim of the temptation of Jesus wasn't for Jesus to become a medium through which GOD the Father could be tested.

DoctorAlien:


Which version of the Bible used the word "produced" in Prov. 8:22?

The new world translation, some other versions used "formed ", "created ", "made", "brought me fought", "possessed".

Secondly, Prov. 8:22 was talking about wisdom, not Jesus Christ. Check verse 12 to see that. GOD created every thing with wisdom; indeed, He is a wise GOD. He is the origin of wisdom.

In verse 22, wisdom says: “Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago.” More than just wisdom must be involved here, for that quality never was “produced or created” It never began to exist because Jehovah has always existed and he has always been wise. God’s Son, however, was “the firstborn of all creation.” He was produced, or created; he was the earliest of all of Jehovah’s achievements. The Son existed before the earth and the heavens, as described in Proverbs. And as the Word, God’s own Spokesman, he was the perfect expression of Jehovah’s wisdom.

you do not agree that the verses are referring to jesus, please tell what you understand by the verses(expecially the coloured part)
“The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works,
before his deeds of old;
23 I was formed long ages ago,
at the very beginning, when the world came to be.
24 When there were no watery depths, I was given birth,
when there were no springs overflowing with water;
25 before the mountains were settled in place,
before the hills, I was given birth,
26 before he made the world or its fields
or any of the dust of the earth.
27 [color=redI was there when he set the heavens in place,[/color]
when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,
28 when he established the clouds above
and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,
29 when he gave the sea its boundary
so the waters would not overstep his command,
and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
30 Then I was constantly at his side.
I was filled with delight day after day,
rejoicing always in his presence

Now it is clear to me that you have turned away from Bible teachings, in that you said Jesus Christ has a beginning. You said that the beginning of Christ is the beginning of creation. Let's see what the Bible says: "And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was" Jn. 17:5

your statement will be true only if the world was the first thing God created in the beginning, but you are wrong, read proverbs 8: 22-30.
even angels where rejoicing during the creation of the earth!

The Scripture clearly asserts that even before creation, Jesus was. Again, the Scriptures prove you wrong.

you got it wrong, the scriptures said world, not creation, thank god you are living in the 12th century, you know that there are trillions of other creative works of God apart from this earth, and scientist have shown that this things existed before the earth.
jesus is the firstborn of all creation!

DoctorAlien:
Dolphinheart,

You said that Jesus has a beginning and that that beginning was at the creation.

Here is what the Bible says about Christ: "...and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true GOD, and eternal life." 1 Jn. 5:20

The Bible calls Jesus the true GOD, and refers to him as ETERNAL life. Jesus is eternal.

If you still think Jesus has beginning, check the meaning of the word "eternal".

pls kindly quote the verse in full and ill respond to it, the truth about the verse in in the part you cut off.

dolphinheart:

pls kindly quote the verse in full and ill respond to it, the truth about the verse in in the part you cut off.

"And we know that the Son of GOD is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in Him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true GOD, and eternal life." 1 Jn. 5:20.

What truth is here?

dolphinheart:

The new world translation, some other versions used "formed ", "created ", "made", "brought me fought", "possessed".

I see. You quoted JW Bible for me. I searched "Prov. 8:22 NWT" and the first result I saw was a jw site. I'm sorry but no other version of the Bible used the word "produced" in Prov. 8:22. KJV used the word "possessed". So do many others.

I suppose you read your jw Bible. I'm very sure a lot of Bible truths have been distorted in that translation, hence your distorted view of the Scripture.

dolphinheart:
God’s Son, however, was “the firstborn of all creation.” He was produced, or created;

I'm shocked. Show me where the Scripture clearly says that Jesus Christ was created.

Please don't quote your jw NWT for me.

It's interesting that only jw's NWT uses the word "produced" in verse 22 of Prov. 8.

Dolphinheart,

1 Cor. 30 calls Jesus Christ the wisdom of GOD. If you say Jesus Christ was created, was wisdom created?

DoctorAlien:


Hitherto you have told many lies, and this is one of them. "I AM" translates "ego eimi" in Greek and not "eimi". This is the same name GOD proclaimed to Moses, and Jesus takes it as his name. What can that mean? He is equal to GOD the Father.

1. point to some of those lies and let's see if they are lies
2. If you had read my words very well you would have understood better, I never said "I am" translates to "eimi in Greek. look at my words again, this is what I said :

"go look at the [u]Greek words[/u]translated to "I am" and you will see it, expecially the Greek word "eimi"."

I know what I was saying when I said Greek words, I know "I am " is ego eimi, that's y I said words instead of word when referring to " I am" .
After you had looked at the words you can now look at the greek word "eimi, which is part of the words "ego eimi".
I know they are two words, but I want you to look at the meaning of "eimi", I never said "eimi" means "I am". so I did not lie sir.

3.ill advise that you look at the Hebrew word for I am, and the Hebrew text of what God said to Moses.

4. The Greek words " ego eimi" is not always translated as " I am" , even by the kjv.

Stop using puerile logic here. Does the fact that people use "I am" today mean that "I AM" is no longer GOD's name?

that not what I said sir, what im saying is that implying that the use of "I am" means that that person is God is wrong, cus several people used "I am" in the scriptures.
ego eimi is just two greek words used in a sentence, look at the places where " ego eimi " occurs in the scriptures and Check if it's relating to God's name!

Moreover, if Jesus was merely speaking of His existence before Abraham and not taking GOD's name, the Bible would have translated the correct sentence with concord. Do you notice that by the rules of concord, this sentence "before Abraham, I am" is wrong? By the rules of concord, the correct sentence is "before Abraham, I was".

modification of the sentence jesus made will not help, the sentence you made might not conform to the rule, but that is not what jesus said, look at it againnote where the word"was" is located and the difference between you statement and jesus' statement
New International Version
"Very truly I tell you," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"
New Living Translation
Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, before Abraham was even born, I Am!"
English Standard Version
Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.”
Berean Study Bible
"Truly, truly, I tell you," Jesus declared, "before Abraham was born, I am!"
New American Standard Bible
Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am."

But the Bible reads "I AM" because Jesus qualified himself with GOD's own name. He is equal with GOD the Father.

cutting off the question asked jesus, cutting off the other parts of jesus statement , cutting off the context, just so that you can come to a different conclusion!
The issue was about age!, !not title!.

I'm still shocked someone could say Jesus Christ was created. Something that can never be found anywhere in the Bible.

DoctorAlien:
Dolphinheart,

You implied that the Jews tried to kill Jesus because he told them that "His Father is different from theirs."

Let us see what the Bible says is the reason why the Jews tried to kill Jesus: "Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he...said also that GOD was his Father, making himself equal with GOD. " Jn. 5:18.

Here, the Bible unequivocally states that Jesus made Himself equal with GOD.

interesting, so you believe the statements of those religious leaders who jesus himself said they do not understand what he is saying!