₦airaland Forum

4kings:
"Jesus" probably existed as an ordinary rabbi and not what we know today.
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But Josephus did not write anything about him, or at least not what we know.
Origen the christian church father who was responsible for the growth of the christendom then, was alive during Josephus time but only mentioned him as a man who didn't believe the gospel of Jesus.
Besides, why should Eusebuis be the first person to quote that paragraph, years after his(Josephus) death.

All these are irrelevant , I see them as cavils . As far as miracles and revelations happen in Jesus' name then he indeed existed as the son of God. And your opinion on this to me is insignificant

raphieMontella:
they forgot lying and forgery was a normal character of the early church..even the catholics had to forge the death of the apostles(most)
even martin luther said
''What harm could it do if a man told a good
lusty lie in a worthy cause and for the sake of the
Christian Churches?''

Woww, i didn't know this.
I've not read much about Martin Luther.

But i dont know why enligntened christians cant suppress dogma and seek the truth.

KingEbukasBlog:
All these are irrelevant , I see them as cavils . As far as miracles and revelations happen in Jesus' name then he indeed existed as the son of God. And your opinion on this to me is insignificant

I've told u that those signs are the workings of the subconscious mind as preached by gnostics

But as long as ur opinion dont affect humanity in a harmful way; i'm okay with it.

4kings:
Woww, i didn't know this.
I've not read much about Martin Luther.

But i dont know why enligntened christians cant suppress dogma and seek the truth.

those were his own direct words..

If my brain leads me...m gonna open a thread about it..to see what christians wud say

4kings:
I've told u that those signs are the workings of the subconscious mind as preached by gnostics

See ? Falsehood and deceit from a heretical concept will only bear false perceptions on supernatural intervention aka miracles . It was not even difficult to decipher .

But as long as ur opinion dont affect humanity in a harmful way; i'm okay with it.

Communists killed because of rabid atheism but you still okay with it Ass licker !

KingEbukasBlog:
See ? Falsehood and deceit from a heretical concept will only bear false perceptions on supernatural intervention aka miracles . It was not even difficult to decipher .

See ? Falsehood and deceit from an illogical concept will only bear false perceptions on natural interventions aka the Subconscious Mind. It was not even difficult to decipher.

Communists killed because of rabid atheism but you still okay with it Ass licker !

Eewwww, wtf!!!!
*****
How is your ideology of communism different from early christians burning and torturing innocent people who only used their common sense?

raphieMontella:
those were his own direct words..

If my brain leads me...m gonna open a thread about it..to see what christians wud say

please mention me when u do, i wanna learn.

4kings:
See ? Falsehood and deceit from an illogical concept will only bear false perceptions on natural interventions aka the Subconscious Mind. It was not even difficult to decipher.

. Smh ... Extricating you from this delusion won't be a difficult task at all .

Eewwww, wtf!!!!

Don't get your dander up but I'm right any way

How is your ideology of communism different from early christians burning and torturing innocent people who only used their common sense?

Christianity deprecates their despicable acts while atheism assents to communism because its an inherent inseparable part of it , its foundation in fact . I told you knew nothing about communism

raphieMontella:
those were his own direct words..

If my brain leads me...m gonna open a thread about it..to see what christians wud say

those things have been discussed before . Check old threads . All you guys do is rehash arguments - its boring and vapid .

KingEbukasBlog:
. Smh ... Extricating you from this delusion won't be a difficult task at all .

Smh ... Extricating you from this delusion would be a difficult task because of "intense dogma"

Don't get your dander up but I'm right any way

Christianity deprecates their despicable acts while atheism assents to communism because its an inherent inseparable part of it , its foundation in fact . I told you knew nothing about communism

Let me not go further defending Atheism.
But freedom from religion is the begining of wisdom.

4kings:
Smh ... Extricating you from this delusion would be a difficult task because of "intense dogma"

"Dogma" is pejorative in the sense you are portraying it . Don't you think obstinately agreeing to the existence of a non interventionist supernatural creator is dogmatic . Don't you think atheists being obdurate there is no god is dogmatic

Pot calling kettle black ... Hilarious !

Let me not go further defending Atheism.

Just nobly admit defeat !!! :p

But freedom from religion is the begining of wisdom.

Man made religion . Christianity is a life style in the true sense of it

KingEbukasBlog:
"Dogma" is pejorative in the sense you are portraying it . Don't you think obstinately agreeing to the existence of a non interventionist supernatural creator is dogmatic . Don't you think atheists being obdurate there is no god is dogmatic

Pot calling kettle black ... Hilarious !

I'm a freethinker, and am open to other views as long as it is subject to scrutiny. This is not the case with other religions (dogma again )
My opinions are as a result of reasoning, and i've told u before that i dont make assertions of what i cant fully comprehend. So please stop playing that dogma card with me.

Just nobly admit defeat !!! :p

I won't lie, because my Loving God would not put a lying spirit in me.

Man made religion . Christianity is a life style in the true sense of it

The foundation of Christianity required blood of animals for atonement of sin, then it evolved to replacing animal blood with that of a man, and you must worship that man to get a mansion built for you in heaven. If this story was from another, won't u call it religion. . Keep deceiving urself with "life style".

KingEbukasBlog:
those things have been discussed before . Check old threads . All you guys do is rehash arguments - its boring and vapid .

jst answer a simple question..
Were those his words or not?




Also..i brought a new argument nd invited u..bt neither u nor ur friends have either defended ur god or justified his arguments

malvisguy212:
moses wife, she is a midinite, do the midintes
follow abrahamic covenant of circumcision ? No, do you think moses just woke up one morning and decided to break God law ? In fact, circumcision is Among the sign of God covenant to the israelites. If not his wife, who else ?

What if Moses forgot to do it cos of his long stay in Midian or cos of so many activities he had to handle as a leader of the Jews. You might be right, but since there could be other possibilities, don't you think its a stretch stating convincingly what happened?

4kings:
The popular sculpture of plato's head was done 30years after plato's death, not centuries. , by the academy of athens.
Aristotle attended the academy.
Check the alumni of the academy before u make any assertions.
Apart from Jesus, no other popular men were recorded centuries after, even Mohammed.

You ve not answered the question about authograph. Pls respond to that.

30yrs after his death This makes the sculpture false according to u. That could be an imaginary sculpture to invegh the gullible.

***Jesus was famous, but his teaching unpopular***, WTF , what made him famous?

This doesn't sound plausible to me. Someone could be well known but has an unpopular message.

Still, it was not an eyewitness account.

Why do u say so?

Out of the >5000 audience he received on several occassions, no single person could record the awesomeness of feeding crowds with 5 loaves and 2 fishes and several others.

How then did you know he fed 5000 persons?

Josephus did not believe in Jesus as confirmed by Origen the church father during his time .
And the paragraph that gave account of Jesus existence was first quoted by Eusebius(the liar), centuries after.

I believe you accept that a historian mentioning what happened prior to his time doesn't make his story false?

That it was first quoted by Eusebius doesn't make it false neither does Josephus disbelief in Jesus mean that his mentioning of him was false. In fact, it even solidifies the evidence.

JMAN05:
You ve not answered the question about authograph. Pls respond to that.

30yrs after his death This makes the sculpture false according to u. That could be an imaginary sculpture to invegh the gullible.

Buhari or Idi amin don't have autographs, but their existence would be confirmed by records and opinions of people around them, *especially those that lived during his time*.(The alumni of the schools of athens)
Jesus on the other hand, was made popular by people during the time of myths, who were not alive during his days.

This doesn't sound plausible to me. Someone could be well known but has an unpopular message.

If it doesn't sound "plausible" to you, then why use it?
And yes it is not plausible.

Why do u say so?

Think of how an eyewitness account should be, then consider the nature of the book again.
Besides, it is agreed by most scholars that a hypothetical "Q source" was used.

How then did you know he fed 5000 persons?

I read the Bible.

I believe you accept that a historian mentioning what happened prior to his time doesn't make his story false?

Absolutely, but historians mentioning what happened "centuries" before them is kinda odd.
Do you believe in the other stories written by Josephus, or an adventurer rising from the dead by Tacitus?
Remember this were the ages when mythology was dominant.

That it was first quoted by Eusebius doesn't make it false neither does Josephus disbelief in Jesus mean that his mentioning of him was false. In fact, it even solidifies the evidence.

How does it solidify the evidence?, Origen who disliked him never mentioned that quote by him(Josephus), in his(Origen) quest to revive christendom then. Even if Josephus mentioned Jesus, it wasn't in the way we know today.

4kings:
Buhari or Idi amin don't have autographs, but their existence would be confirmed by records and opinions of people around them, *especially those that lived during his time*.(The alumni of the schools of athens)
Jesus on the other hand, was made popular by people during the time of myths, who were not alive during his days.

i wonder how contemporary historians wud miss documenting supernatural phenomena like 3hours darkness ghosts walking up and down...
Bt cud record other stuffs like eclipses..

Think of how an eyewitness account should be, then consider the nature of the book again.
Besides, it is agreed by most scholars that a hypothetical "Q source" was used.

with the crowd according to the bible...the guy even met wit educated humans like the scribes...bt ntin

Do you believe in the other stories written by Josephus, or an adventurer rising from the dead by Tacitus?
Remember this were the ages when mythology was dominant.

i believe he hasnt read josephus antiquities...
Hercules was dominant in josephus antiquites...dont know if we shud believe in hercules and zeus as God because of that

How does it solidify the evidence?,

i wonder why no historian who existed at that time wud fail to document herod's massacre of thousands of infants according to matthew 2..
Bt common 250 chibok girls the world heard of it(though we are advanced now)
...no roman records
no contemporary histories

cc : lalasticlala seun mynd44

please this thread deserves to be on the front page . Its Sunday , let's discuss Christ

4kings:
Buhari or Idi amin don't have autographs, but their existence would be confirmed by records and opinions of people around them, *especially those that lived during his time*.(The alumni of the schools of athens)
Jesus on the other hand, was made popular by people during the time of myths, who were not alive during his days.

Well, Aristotle, Plato etc had autographs, but what we have is rewritten manuscripts. But you still believed they existed.

And when the people around Jesus tell you about him, you start vacillating? I like your expression "especially", not "exclusively".

And this school of Athens is during the time of truth, not " myth"? Well, people who were in his days wrote about him. And that someone wrote about a person not living at his time does not make there story false. Historians are known to write things that happened prior to there time.

if it doesn't sound "plausible" to you, then why use it?
And yes it is not plausible.

I don't see the reason behind your question. That is the message of my previous post.

Think of how an eyewitness account should be, then consider the nature of the book again.
Besides, it is agreed by most scholars that a hypothetical "Q source" was used.

The book is consistent with the writeup of Jewish holy writings. No?

These "q source" that was not alluded to by the early Christians. False.

I read the Bible.

So it wasn't someone that recorded what you read there?

Absolutely, but historians mentioning what happened "centuries" before them is kinda odd.
Do you believe in the other stories written by Josephus, or an adventurer rising from the dead by Tacitus?
Remember this were the ages when mythology was dominant.

It might be odd to you, it doesn't mean it isn't true. There are authurs today writing about the likes of Plato, Aristotle, Pythagoras etc, how many centuries have you now counted?

And neither is the writeup of Josephus about Jesus time centuries apart. I believe in most other stories written by Josephus. And you believe his story about Philo, although its during the time of myth. Not so?

Peter countered the myth argument. 2pet 1:16

How does it solidify the evidence?, Origen who disliked him never mentioned that quote by him(Josephus), in his(Origen) quest to revive christendom then. Even if Josephus mentioned Jesus, it wasn't in the way we know today.

He mentioned Jesus, not "even if". The issue is not how you understand it today, but that a Judaizer mentioned Jesus in his writeup. Which means Jesus existed. The consensus is that Josephus mentioned Jesus in his writing.

The proof is also supported by Arabic and Syric version of Josephus writings which mentioned Jesus. Tell ursef the truth.

raphieMontella:
you trust people...do you trust muhammed?
It is not out of this world..the odds are low...the soldiers are so much..1.2m soldiers..
Had it been something like 3hk soldiers that plausible means would be okay to think about..and he was at the top of a mountain..the energy of sound in air reduces as the distance travelled increases...or were tthe generals anchored att various points on the mountain?
On honesty..my kids would believe me(they may later outgrow it/or refuse to believe) even if what i said is a lie...bt a good father would not lie to his children..
Much said...i still have some more am going to bring up here..

Why not? You are the one with trust issues, having a problem with the number of places he divided the moon into. If he says he did it, so be it, what next? As far as it is safe, i'm good. Many nations have over 1.2million people in the army, how then is it out of this world? i would not dwell too much on numbers though, that's if i were you anyway. On honesty, i said "If you speak HONESTLY" abi HONEST don change meaning again?

raphieMontella:
what are u saying?
Aristotles writings survived..plato likewise...wat are u saiyng oga?
i dnt get u here...
He was so popular that he had to be killed by romans..romans didnt document this...i dnt understand ur claim here...simplify

mark was written by an anonymous write...was dated to 70CE...matthew is dated to arnd 130CE or so..also anonymous..so what u saying?

with such supernatural phenomenom that occured at the hour of crucification of jesus(ghosts walking up and down,,,3 hours darkness etc) its funny that theres no record of it except in the gospels...whereas even pliny a christian recorded other phenomena like eclipses...
Ts quite disturbing ddnt u fink?


at least philo's writings survived..and he has eyewitness accounts...nt hearsays..

my assertion is that jesus existed..bt was nothing more than a rabbi of the religious sect of nazarene...
Do u know that the city of nazareth has no contemporary recordd?
Even when josephus listed cities in judea abi gallilee..smtin like that..

philo's writings survived..nd were used in the first century and latter dates..josephus existed before philo died...josephus may have added some stuffs we do not know...bt the jesus issue is that...contemporary historians who existed arnd the timeline of jesus(his life) made no mention of the guy...despite his works..in the bible...jesus was so popular...he attracted crowds upon crowds..

Look at the resurrection...crowdds upon crowdds...do u grab?

Frm ur analogyy...then we shud also believe in hercules....do u believe that zeus is the true god?
Josephus wrote abt hercules...a lot
tacitus also...
I tinkk pliny also..
Many of them wrote abt hercules much more than they wrote abt jesus..so?
Should we believe the homers detailed story of hercules(in the odyssey)?

You believe Jesus existed. End of story.

JMAN05:
Well, you said you have the works of Aristotle, I thought you had the autograph.

And when the people around Jesus tell you about him, you start vacillating? I like your expression "especially", not "exclusively".

And this school of Athens is during the time of truth, not " myth"? Well, people who were in his days wrote about him. And that someone wrote about a person not living at his time does not make there story false. Historians are known to write things that happened prior to there time.



I don't see the reason behind your question. That is the message of my previous post.



The book is consistent with the writeup of Jewish holy writings. No?

These "q source" that was not alluded to by the early Christians. False.



So it wasn't someone that recorded what you read there?



It might be odd to you, it doesn't mean it isn't true. There are authurs today writing about the likes of Plato, Aristotle, Pythagoras etc, how many centuries have you now counted?

And neither is the writeup of Josephus about Jesus time centuries apart. I believe in most other stories written by Josephus. And you believe his story about Philo, although its during the time of myth. Not so?

Peter countered the myth argument. 2pet 1:16



He mentioned Jesus, not "even if". The issue is not how you understand it today, but that a Judaizer mentioned Jesus in his writeup. Which means Jesus existed. The consensus is that Josephus mentioned Jesus in his writing.

The proof is also supported by Arabic and Syric version of Josephus writings which mentioned Jesus. Tell ursef the truth.

Bros, the Synoptic Gospels were not written by the Authors you know. How can 3 guys that were with Jesus for years, also considering that the Bible said what Jesus did could fill the Bible itself, Write a very very very "similar" story. Come on, the Hypothetical "Q source" was brought up by Christian scholars not atheist; so please let's not argue any further.

The books of Paul for example, are thought by some scholars to have been manipulated(I.e adding some he never wrote) by early church fathers, for pastoral purposes. Even Gnostics rejects some of Paul's book cos they knew he never intended to preach about the church order but rather a Pneumatic message. Ever wondered why Paul never talked about the Virgin birth or why he said that the story of Ishmael and Abraham was an allegory.
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Jesus didn't exist as the being you know.

Bye :-(

JMAN05:
You believe Jesus existed. End of story.

do u believe hercules was a god?

Image123:
Why not?

so in other words..u believe jesus was a mere prophet and that islam is the true religion also..
Lol..Wont u convert?

You are the one with trust issues, having a problem with the number of places he divided the moon into.

jesus didnt tho..
Well beat that one jesus!

If he says he did it, so be it, what next? As far as it is safe, i'm good.

bt disbelief in islam puts u in danger of the islamic hell bro..
Its unsafe

how then is it out of this world?

the possibility of spreading the message said by the guy frm a mountain top..thats the issue

Many nations have over 1.2million people in the army,
would not dwell too much on numbers though,
that's if i were you anyway.

Israel had 1,300,000 fighting men in this battle. Of course, this is a ridiculously high number for a battle between two tribal armies in 1000 BCE. (The United States had about 1.46 million active duty soldiers in 2010.)
especially if they had originated frm jst a family of 8..not up to ten thousand years ago frm their time

On honesty, i said "If you speak HONESTLY" abi HONEST don change meaning again?

lol..it hasnt...so u believe it happened because t was written in the bible ?
That makes u not open to other things or rather open mindedness

raphieMontella:
do u believe hercules was a god?

Why will I not believe? But not the true God.

JMAN05:
Why will I not believe? But not the true God.

back to base 1..
Why do u believe his father zeus is not the real god and believe jesus is the real god?

raphieMontella:
so in other words..u believe jesus was a mere prophet and that islam is the true religion also..
Lol..Wont u convert?

Trust is not gullibility. i clearly said "As far as it is safe, i'm good." Here it is. If somebody somewhere on NL is claiming to be President Buhari, no problem. It is not a problem for me at all. Now, if he tells me that he is, it is still not a problem, he is innocent until proven otherwise. i'm not even going to argue with him. It is only if it requires something of me that i begin to make more demands. The fellow's actions do not affect me or interest me, not to mention me believing or disbelieving him. i have Jesus and He is good enough for me. If someone has something better for ME, then show it already. i heard Mo said his followers should listen to christians or something like that BTW.

jesus didnt tho..
Well beat that one jesus!

Jesus doesn't engage in things of irrelevance.

bt disbelief in islam puts u in danger of the islamic hell bro..
Its unsafe

No, it does not Even the adherents do not know where they are going. Shush already and learn.

the possibility of spreading the message said by the guy frm a mountain top..thats the issue

i got the message and you got it centuries later. What possibility are you referring to again? Why leave realities and dwell on probabilities?

Israel had 1,300,000 fighting men in this battle. Of course, this is a ridiculously high number for a battle between two tribal armies in 1000 BCE. (The United States had about 1.46 million active duty soldiers in 2010.)
especially if they had originated frm jst a family of 8..not up to ten thousand years ago frm their time

Tell me something you are hiding from us. Were you there? And what is the importance of this battle to your life again?

lol..it hasnt...so u believe it happened because t was written in the bible ?
That makes u not open to other things or rather open mindedness

Open mindedness(whatever that means) does not have to make me disbelieve my HONEST father and friends. i have yet to see a single benefit of this touted open mindedness. i am okay with what i have. Why does that bother atheists so bad?

4kings:
Bros, the Synoptic Gospels were not written by the Authors you know. How can 3 guys that were with Jesus for years, also considering that the Bible said what Jesus did could fill the Bible itself, Write a very very very "similar" story. Come on, the Hypothetical "Q source" was brought up by Christian scholars not atheist; so please let's not argue any further.

Why do u say other authors wrote them? Writing a very similar story is not a good point. We can often see newspapers writing similar stories. And when something of significance happen in a person's life, its understandable why there would be a similar story. and the writers were also guided by holy spirit.

The "Q source" is a howler.

The books of Paul for example, are thought by some scholars to have been manipulated(I.e adding some he never wrote) by early church fathers, for pastoral purposes. Even Gnostics rejects some of Paul's book cos they knew he never intended to preach about the church order but rather a Pneumatic message. Ever wondered why Paul never talked about the Virgin birth or why he said that the story of Ishmael and Abraham was an allegory.
********************
Jesus didn't exist as the being you know.

Bye :-(

You now cherrypicking. Why not respond one by one as we do before?

What they say about Paul's writings are false. His books are OK and accepted by many early Christians.

There many other things that Paul didn't talk about. Any writer writes with a purpose, he must not cover everything. Paul is using the events in Abraham's life to show a prophetic picture. It doesn't mean that they never existed.

Jesus didn't exist as the being I know. Well, its interesting you are not saying he didn't exist at all. No? So he existed as who?

raphieMontella:
back to base 1..
Why do u believe his father zeus is not the real god and believe jesus is the real god?

For one, hercules or zeus have never told me this crap. It is only atheists that keep saying this crap about the need to believe hercules, even hercules is not as interested.

raphieMontella:
back to base 1..
Why do u believe his father zeus is not the real god and believe jesus is the real god?

You are the one saying Jesus is the real god. So answer ur question.

Image123:
Tell me something you are hiding from us. Were you there? And what is the importance of this battle to your life again?

Leave him to his delusion , he feels its rational thinking and he is convinced that he is making sense .

JMAN05:
Why do u say other authors wrote them? Writing a very similar story is not a good point. We can often see newspapers writing similar stories. And when something of significance happen in a person's life, its understandable why there would be a similar story. and the writers were also guided by holy spirit.

The "Q source" is a howler.



You now cherrypicking. Why not respond one by one as we do before?

What they say about Paul's writings are false. His books are OK and accepted by many early Christians.

There many other things that Paul didn't talk about. Any writer writes with a purpose, he must not cover everything. Paul is using the events in Abraham's life to show a prophetic picture. It doesn't mean that they never existed.

Jesus didn't exist as the being I know. Well, its interesting you are not saying he didn't exist at all. No? So he existed as who?

Byeee, I told u I don't want to argue any further.

Believe what u want