Deicide:
What of deist,?

Scholar8200:
Considering the nature of the average man, it is improbable that such would conceptualize the concept of being watched by an All-seeing Personality with such high demands! If God was invented as a result of some inexplicable phenomena, then how do we explain the involvement of morals? Besides, if we say that morals were included just to serve as a deterrent then remember that there was enough to deter anyone (without God in the picture).

It seems to me that the ones invented can be identified by their apparently depraved-nature friendly demands.

DoctorAlien:
I believe it is logical to believe in reality. Reality has been defined to include everything that is and has been, whether or not it is observable or comprehensible.

Based on this premises, I assert that belief in a conscious Watchman who looks over every of our activities is logically not out of place.

Edenoscar:
Round the clock surveillance and supervision of every single waking and sleeping moment of your life the abolision of any privacy in your life or in your most private thoughts. A conscious watchman i must say is the most extreme form of totalitarianism ever imagined.

ValentineMary:

So u think because we on our own can't decide our moral standing a greater being installed it in us?

If the dolphins can live in a peaceful community without a deity why can't we ?

ValentineMary:

This is not a logical step by step approach to answering the qus. U only gave a conclusion.
And from ur definition u are right there are many things we can't observe yet they are real eg dark matter. But we have other techniques for finding and proving them. What technique do u think is acceptable for proving ur claim?

Lennycool:
How can you say the biblical God(or any God for that matter) is responsible for human morals? The Abrahamic God is a supporter of rape, genocide, infanticide, incest, misogyny and homophobia.

How is this moral?
Morals came about without any God or Gods, it is simply a trait possessed by intelligent lifeforms.

DoctorAlien:


I submit that there are aspects of reality that cannot be subjected to empirical tests, or even be observed. Their existence must be accepted as truth based on the testimony of the individual feeling that aspect of reality.

Take for example, I don't believe that the emotion "shame" exists. Mr. A tells me that he is ashamed of Mr. B. There is no way I can empirically observe shame in Mr. A. Yet, I have to believe what he told me.

ValentineMary:

Such things like jealousy has a way of knowing its presence. The manifestation it brings. Take us go back to our dark matter analogy. We can precisly tell it's presence and density by gravitational lensing.
So even though we visually analyse it, we can make other indirect search on it.

And I have a problem with taking people's testimony and not empirical evidence. Personal testimony is subjective and the interpretation might be wrong.

Scholar8200:
Well its not a thread on morality and its source. However, there always has to be a plumb-line. Else, who exactly are the we? and on what basis do we decide? We may rebel against the standard in the name of dynamism but point is there has to be one.

Do you have any example in mind?

Because we are not without a choice? we may choose to rebel against such morals or rationalize but point still remains that there must be a plumb-line and that definitely did not commence with man.

Comparison between higher animals and higher gives a better picture.

Besides, we should wonder how possible and/or plausible it is for primitive man, at a time when life was nasty and brutish, to come up with the concept of an All-seeing, Holy God etc while 21st century man, with all the privileges and enlightenment of knowledge and civilisation, deny or change or dispense with same! What changed?

If we say the latter became better enlightened and better informed, remember that the former had every reason not to conceptualize Same in the first place. Moreover, if the only basis for the introduction of the God concept by primitive man was to explain the seemingly inexplicable intricacies of nature, then can someone help us with how morals came into the picture?

Lennycool:
How can you say the biblical God(or any God for that matter) is responsible for human morals? The Abrahamic God is a supporter of rape, genocide, infanticide, incest, misogyny and homophobia. How is this moral?
Morals came about without any God or Gods, it is simply a trait possessed by intelligent lifeforms.

Scholar8200:
I guess this was meant to be a thread for, "Pls only matured comments." The accusations you listed here are lopsided and any attempt by me to clarify this will derail the thread. Besides, it is the role of the Standard setter to also mete out punishments when and where it is deserved and that is why, contrary to your claims, those who were involved in executing justice also faced a similar punishment when they were guilty.

there must still be a basis. Else morals gets coloured by the natural law of fairness based on survival of the fittest! It becomes fair as long as you are/or can prove to be the fittest, the means will justify your end!

ValentineMary:

Pls by God I don't just mean Yahweh. I mean all the possible God even the.deist God.

ValentineMary:

Pls by God I don't just mean Yahweh. I mean all the possible God even the.deist God.

raphieMontella:

the deistic God is an impersonal God right?
What are the possibilities of it being a watchman?
Cc:4kings..tell me something..

DoctorAlien:


While we can assert the presence of such things as jealousy by analyzing their effects, we cannot see/observe jealousy itself! We only see its effects.

This problem you have with accepting other people's testimony is the problem of empiricists: if it has not happened to them, it is not true.

If I have never felt shame in my life, would I be right to assert that shame does not exist?

Seun:
Title changed from "The Need For A Conscious Watchman (a Discussion)" to "The Existence Of A Conscious Watchman (a Discussion)". This should not have to be said explicitly, but please always try to make sure that the titles of the threads you create match their contents (rule 1)

So, let's talk about the existence of a conscious watchman. Does anyone here have any evidence to support this claim?

ValentineMary:

Some deist feel that God is something humans can't comprehend. But does not require worship but still looks over the universe.

ValentineMary:
Over the years theist and atheist have argued about the possibility of us having a conscious watchman who looks over every of our activities. So this thread is for us to discuss how logical it is for us to claim to have a watchman. Pls only matured comments.

Cc Johnnydon22, Seun , Raphiemontella, Dorox, Doctoralien, Lordnicklaus, Shadeyinka, hopefullandlord, Hahn, Dakol, cloudgoddess, Donnffd, Ifenes, et al

ValentineMary:
In South Western Nigeria for example it was once seen as normal for women to walk around topless. but today it is a taboo. Killing of unbelievers was once accepted in Europe but has changed today.

Actually in most cases these morals were dogmatically followed as laid down by the said deity yet it was still dynamic.

The function of God in the world of the primitive man was to make up for their ignorance. But today some stuck with it due to fear of a punishment or to have a companion of some sort. Others decided to carve their own path and shawn fear. [i] Actually there were lots of things unknown to the primitive man.

And on morality, for the fact that we are social animals and conscious being, morality would be a connerstone in our evolution. Take a look at the ants, dolphins, whales, etc.

Lennycool:

I wish not to the rail the thread but you can't read verses like
2 Samuel 12:11-14
Thus says the Lord: ‘I will bring evil upon you out of your own house. I will take your wives[plural] while you live to see it, and will give them to your neighbor. He shall liewith your wives in broad daylight. You have done this deed in secret, but I will bring it about in the presence of all Israel, and with the sun looking down.’

Or
Zechariah 14:1-2
a day shall come for the Lord when the spoils shall be divided in your midst. And I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem for battle: the city shall be taken,houses plundered,women ravished; half ofthe city shall go into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be removed from the city.
And tell me that God is moral


Humans are already like this

Scholar8200:

This was a judgement to a man that loved God dearly. He committed adultery with a man's wife and then killed the man! He was here being told of what the evil seed will yield. I see incorruptible justice here! Now Valentinemary, will man naturally invent such a God?

This is a prophecy of what will happen in the future during the reign of the antichrist. This does not mean God delights in seeing it happen. Read verse 3 and see that God will defend them.

ValentineMary:
Over the years theist and atheist have argued about the possibility of us having a conscious watchman who looks over every of our activities. So this thread is for us to discuss how logical it is for us to claim to have a watchman. Pls only matured comments.

Cc Johnnydon22, Seun , Raphiemontella, Dorox, Doctoralien, Lordnicklaus, Shadeyinka, hopefullandlord, Hahn, Dakol, cloudgoddess, Donnffd, Ifenes, et al