₦airaland Forum

WHERE DO ATHEISTS GET THEIR MORALITY?

Dr Darrel Ray

First, let’s take a hard look at “God’s teachings.” Most Christians are quite unaware of their gods’ teachings. They simply take what the preacher says on Sunday morning as the truth and word of their god. If these teachings were simple and clear, then there would not be 38,000 different denominations and branches of Christianity all saying different things.

For example, I am riding on a train as I write this. I am sitting within a few feet of several Amish families. They are dressed like they walked out of an 1880’s movie. They are pacifistic and hardworking people who deeply believe that their god has instructed them that modern conveniences are the temptations of Satan. Owning a computer is a sin for them. Owning a car, shaving their beards, or having electricity in their home is a sin. Dating anyone outside of the community is a sin. Chances are, even if you were the best Christian you could be, you would still be a very immoral person according to their god.

A close reading of the Old Testament is filled with horrendous lessons on how to treat people. A god that kills almost everyone on Earth in a flood: that’s pretty crazy. A god that commands Joshua to murder all the women and children except for the young girls, who can be taken as sex slaves: That’s horrible. A god that condemns anyone who eats shellfish: what is that all about? And of course.

The 10 commandments tell you that working on Saturday or saying god’s name without a good reason makes you a bad person in the eyes of god. God eventually goes into great detail about how to deal with cattle thieves, isolating women on their period, and which fabrics to wear at the same time; but nowhere in those ten commandments, or in the six hundred and three that come after it, does it say “Don’t abuse children,” or “Don’t enslave people,” or “Don’t rape.”

There’s a simple explanation for this, which is that the Bible was written by human beings at a time when stealing a person’s livestock was a crime punishable by death, but raping a young girl was easily remedied by following it up with a marriage proposal. If the girl married someone other than her rapist however, and was found to not be a virgin, she would be executed. There is nothing remotely moral about any of this.

The Abrahamic tribes who wrote the Old Testament simply came up with a set of laws that favored those already in power, and then claimed those laws were dictated by god and that questioning them was punishable by death.

In the New Testament, you can pick and choose to find verses that sound nice, but who gets to decide which verses teach the moral lessons? When Paul says that a master should treat his slave well, why didn’t he just condemn slavery? Surely the “golden rule” would require that.

When Paul says, “A woman should be quiet in church and not speak. She should learn from her husband.” is that a good moral model? When Jesus says, “If you don’t love me more than your own family, you don’t deserve heaven.” Is that the kind of god you want?

Morality is present in all societies in some form. There were moral people and moral codes long before the Hebrews came along and much earlier than Jesus. If morality comes from the teachings of god, who taught the ancient Chinese their morals? Who taught the Iroquois Indians, before Columbus?

Muslims claim that their morality comes directly from god as written in the Koran. Mormons teach that their morality comes from god as written in the book of Mormon. The Hopi have a well-developed moral and ethical code, but it is not what you or I would recognize. While all of these groups claim that some god gave them their morality, the fact is that no society can live long without rules for successful interaction. No gods gave them these moral rules; tradition and the need to live peacefully within a larger group, brought these about.

You live in a society that has well developed rules and laws that came from centuries of secular law and government. You would be hard pressed to find much in our current laws that was directly related to The Decalogue or the 613 commandments found in the Old Testament. Those were laws and rules as foreign to us today as the Hopi moral code is to the U.S. legal code. They are hardly related.

Little if any of your day-to-day behavior is governed by anything you can find in a holy book. Be kind to each other, is a pretty universal value. Most cultures have some version of that. It existed long before holy books were written. It did not come from any god.

If we received our morality from god or religion, then we would expect to see higher morality among the most religious and godly societies. A simple look at today’s societies shows that is not the case. For example, the US is the most religious western nation, yet we have the highest murder rate, highest rate of imprisonment, highest rape rates along with among the highest poverty rates, teen pregnancies and much more.

Compare our religious society to France, Germany, Sweden, Japan or any number of other developed countries, and you see that high rates of atheism or non-religiosity are associated with low rates of all these “moral” problems.

Western morality began with the enlightenment about 500 years ago. The enlightenment was the first time that Europeans started separating religion from morality. Through the last few centuries, Western Civilization has developed a code of morality that is not dependent on any religion, from the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, to the United Nations Charter, to the International Court of Justice, The Geneva Convention on War, and much more. These institutions and laws make no reference to gods or religion and are often agreed to by countries whose citizens have radically different religions.

Here is something to consider. No major religion on earth condemned slavery until the enlightenment came along to condemn it. All the major religions claim that women are inferior to men. None thought that women had a role to play in political life and rarely in religious life. Most churches still believe that only men may lead. Many major religions espoused “Peace on Earth” but were quick to start huge devastating Crusades against one another. Christians who espoused Christian morality in the 1500’s spent decades killing one another across Europe in the 30 years war. Millions died in the name of a god. Not much morality there.

Where do we get our morality? From the constant development of our culture. From the evolution of laws and guidelines that help us create a peaceful and prosperous society. We are who create our morality and we pass it down to our children and grandchildren. That is why Muslim people can live prosperously in the US along side Baptists, Mormons, Hindus and Atheists. We have a morality that supersedes all religions and is beholden to none.

Thepasserby:
1 Corinthians 1:18 New King James Version (NKJV)

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those
who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the
power of God.

eph12:
Depends on what you term morality and immortality. Even in the USA immorality is high.

akintom:
Confirming the conclusion therefore, that morality has origin in nature and not religion

eph12:
Depends on what you term morality and immortality. Even in the USA immorality is high.

akintom:
http://kidswithoutgod.com/teens/ask/where-do-atheists-get-their-morality/

Thepasserby:
1 Corinthians 1:18 New King James Version (NKJV)

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those
who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the
power of God.

foladara777:
Really?? Like what wearing mini-skirts??

eph12:
Rephrase your question. Is it on my first or second sentence?

foladara777:
U spoke of immorality... Give us examples

eph12:
Stealing fighting killing corruption bribery etc

foladara777:
Oh... It's actually less there than over here where we claim to believe in God... In fact, the countries with the lowest crime rates are the ones with a lot of people who don't believe in God

eph12:
And this means their believe in God is responsible for this high crime rate?

akintom:
CHRISTIANS VS ATHEISTS: WHICH GROUP IS MORE MORAL?

Results of several studies on the above topic, agreed that there's no significant difference in the moral behavior, between the Christian group and atheist group.

Christians are taught and encouraged to be moral (to bear fruit of the spirit, and not that of the flesh).

For by this fruit of the spirit bearing, atheists shall know that they are the children of their "good" God.

Using nairaland Christians as a case study:

*How real is the fruit of the spirit?

*can the spirit really make the Christian moral?

*despite the spirit, don't Christians still behave immoral?

*is the spirit really the source of moral behavior?

*if the Adamic nature (the immoral nature) is dead in Christian, why do Christians still commit immoral acts?
..................................................................................................................
Since i came on Nairaland forum, i have engaged Christians, amongst whom are pastors, priests, Rev..... Etc.

I have deliberately tested various fruit of the spirit in them, and i observed that, in more than 98% of the Christians that I have engaged so far, there's nothing close to the fruit of the spirit, in these Christians.

Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

Galatians 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Rather they are full of the fruit of immorality:

Galatians 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

Galatians 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, jealousies, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

Galatians 5:21 Contentions, murders, drunkenness, revelings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
................................................................................................................

Conclusion:
Generally speaking, and as far as moral standard is concerned, the Christian and the atheists have no significant difference in rating over each other.

This therefore shows that, the natural origin and evolution of morality, as propounded by behavioral neuroscientists, are true in human experience. As against the erroneous and unrealistic claims of Christians.
.................................................................................................................

My study is concluded. Henceforth, i shall engage in rational and intellectual debate and discuss, with anyone willing to engage me.

I may use the phrase:

"idiotic idea"
"such thinking is puerile"
"reasons like these are stupid and nonsensical" etc

NB - these should not be taken as personal insults, but as descriptive words for impersonal text.

I shall choose to discontinue any debate that, descend into derogatory use of words, directed at my "person" and not my "text".

Thanks.

akintom:
It means the religious claims, to the effect that there's some power of the "Holy Spirit", that can make religious folks be moral is FALSE and non EXISTENT.

eph12:
So what's making some immoral? What's the cause?

akintom:
The sense of right and wrong (morality) is natural.

Humans are responsible for their actions - right or wrong.

This right/wrong dichotomy is both individual and societal in concept.

Religion claimed origin of morality. And that there is some spirit power to make religious folks act right always. But evidence has shown that, it is false

eph12:
In case you have not observed poverty is the cause of high cases of immortality in Africa or wherever. Take away poverty and crime rate will drop.

eph12:
Religion has never claimed morality. Religion only claim there's life after life and what you do in this life determines what happens in next life

akintom:
USA is not a poor nation, but most Americans are morally bankrupt, Just as Nigeria. The difference is that USA government, is up in its responsibilities to checkmate it.

akintom:
religion has abundantly claim morality (its source and endowment). Specifically, Christianity claimed to be able to restore capacity not to be immoral, while still on earth, through Jesus christ and holy spirit.

eph12:
You contradicting yourself. You say USA does not practice religion but are highly moral, at least more than Nigeria. And that's why you're speaking against religion. You've seen a country that don't have time for religion yet highly moral.

eph12:
What's the end game of Christians since you're particular about Christians?

akintom:
You're mixing it up.

USA government enforces rules that deters Americans from immorality. It's on this basis that USA is rated higher on morality scale compared to Nigeria.

The meaning of this, is that the mechanism for instilling good moral and deterring bad moral, is both personal and societal.

Atheism encourages folks and government to take responsibility for moral standard.

As against religious claims, that says there's some spirit that empowers one to go on auto-high moral standard attainment.

If there's anything of such, it ought to be evident in Nigeria, since Nigeria is over 98% religious.


[sub]

Because Christian beliefs claim what is not real. Just a case study for me.

eph12:
Christianity constantly preaches against bad morals. It does not encourage bad morals neither does it stop the government or individuals from having or instilling immortality. Christianity says stealing is bad, people go ahead to steal is that what this is about?

akintom:
Am not interested in what Christianity teaches, but what it CLAIMS.

it claims some holy spirit power, given to believers, which enables them to get on auto-moral lifestyle.

And the concept of forgiveness, numbs the Christian's sense of responsibility for their acts. It encourages irresponsible lifestyle.

Of course this nonsense is found in all religions. It's this virus that afflicts the society (people and government), to be grossly inept.

eph12:
Trying to understand the difference between teach and claim in this context though.




Don't know who you've been talking to but Christianity claims if you live a holy life you will make heaven. Pay attention to this very well. It is not saying if you claim to be a christian you are automatically qualified to a life of high morals.

akintom:
1 John 3:8 He that commits sin is of the devil; for the devil sins from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

1 John 3:9 Whoever is born of God does not commit sin; for his seed remains in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

The above is what Christianity claims (claims means what your Bible says, will happen to whosoever believes).

".... Doesn't commit sin....... CANNOT sin..... ", is this statement not guaranteeing auto-moral lifestyle?

That's the false and impossible claim of bible.

eph12:
Revelation 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:


It's is very possible to NOT keep the faith till the end