felixomor:


Please dont tutor me.

They're just relating time to clock, forgetting time can also be related to day and night, seasons of the year, the past and the future......

Everything on earth should freeze and be stagnant or constant before one can say time doesn't exist, that's if they can still breathe or talk to declare that.

bennyann:


They're just relating time to clock, forgetting time can also be related to day and night, seasons of the year, the past and the future......

Everything on earth should freeze and be stagnant or constant before one can say time doesn't exist, that's if they can still breathe or talk to declare that.

Brother, these guys are dull.

felixomor:


Please dont tutor me.

They're just relating time to clock, forgetting time can also be related to day and night, seasons of the year, the past and the future, beginning and end......

Everything on earth should freeze and be stagnant or constant before one can say time doesn't exist, that's if they can still breathe or talk to declare that.

benzics:
Chai.. lwkmd
Gravity is just a nomenclature, a name given to that force that pulls you down... But THERE IS A FORCE THAT PULLS YOU Down, it can be called anything! Whether earthly pulla pula but as far as we are referring to that earthly pull!!!

God is just a name Christians give the creator. You can it him anything you like; energy or whatever. It doesn't matter to us.

benzics:
People fall under anointing or hypnosis?? I was once part of that crowd that fell when the pastor prayed, and I can confirm that I wasn't moved by "sh-it", I just fell to feel that "Yes, the holy spirit is working", but there was actually no force behind that..

This my problem with you people. If it didn't happen to you then it isn't true.

I believe you watch football, and I also believe you see that sometimes when a player jumps to head the ball into the net, some fans also jump like he did.

You get the picture right?

I don't know what it is called but I want you to have it in mind while reading the story below.

I was sitting in the front of my shop with KC one evening.

A car was passing and a bike was trying to overtake it but the driver was unaware.

He turned left without turning on his indicators.

You know what that means for the bike man who was about to overtake him.

But in other to safe his life from the obvious accident, the bike man turned left too.

Now KC who was observing them from the other side screamed and rolled on the chair while imitating the turning that the bike man and the driver did.

He fell off his chair in the process.

The bike man fell too.

He(had an accident alright) he fell because he took unplanned turn while trying to safe himself from accident.

But can same thing be said of KC?

He just fell, he wasn't on bike.

Nobody touched him.

He fell because he observed others falling. The above can be likened to what happened when you fell.

benzics:
Miracles? Lol, do you know anybody that had physical defects (blind, deaf, dumb) but once prayed to, became fine?? Not strangers o, but people you know and have witnessed them being healed? Why can't the so called god heal amputees since he is all powerful, well, because miracle itself is a trick just like magic!!

And I don't believe everything a scientist say just like you believe everything your bible says..

Another premature conclusion. I don't believe half of what my pastor say.

I believe what is truth.

Yes. I was born handicapped. My left hand was useless when I was in primary school but God healed me at a point.

It is still noticeable in pictures that I take but if you need more evidence then come to our family house at Nsukka, Enugu state and ask my my parents how it all happened.

That is my story and that is why I said that you jump to premature conclusion when you said that none of us has heard from God.

felixomor:


Lollz @
"Pulla pulla"

I tire for the Omniknoweth my brother.

benzics:
it all boils down to "Logic", why not evidence or facts? Do you know about Bigfoot? Do you know that there have been sightings of Bigfoot (more than the sighting of yahweh).. Does that mean that yes, since that looks like Bigfoot, BIGFOOT EXISTS, YAAAYYY!!!!


I know you might probably start thinking that the Bigfoot is a fact same way you think the creator of the universe is a fact.. . I thought you all said everything has a beginning? Even the Bible says "in the beginning", so why do you guys keep saying God always was? ?

and it all boils down to the same thing you atheists say .... “prove that God exists".. the annoying part is that you expect us to use physical methods to prove the existence of a being all around us.. when we tell you to look at nature and all that is within... when we tell you to look at the galaxies, the nebulas and the different stars, the designs and other obvious facts, you'll claim it came from nothing... nothing that exploded... but you failed to give us the reason why nothing exploded and what made nothing explode. you failed to tell us why and how nothing was able to give laws that planets follow like gravity, magnetism, etc.. you failed to explain how nothing gave birth to all these minerals, plants, in the right order, proportion, etc... why our hands aren't our heads etc... you failed to pay attention to our evidence... we then gave you spiritual evidence... there are things like OBE's, astral travels and dreams.. yet you called it delusions and our mind playing tricks on us.. you call our spiritual nature delusions, we used miracles to prove that there is a supernatural and we tried to show you the spiritual plane through many religions and faiths.. yet you call it delusions... yet you believe your intelligence and brain came from the mistake of nothing.. what other evidence do you want for an all supreme creator? you rejected nature, spirituality and logic.. you rejected evidence right before your eyes.. and then when we ask you to take the final test to prove this God for yourself(which is death) you refuse... and you say we have no proof for God.. we have more than enough proof.. you are proof.. or do you want God to wear a human body and slap you in the face first? your kind of proof is like asking a lion to prove it is powerful by sleeping... it goes against all aspects of reasoning

And even the Bible said that in the beginning, god was wandering the world (where there is water).. So does it mean that there was water and before God? or god and water arrived same time? so who or what brought their arrival?

In whose beginning? God's or ours?.. sorry to burst your bubble... but it was our beginning... and also, if you're using the biblical creation story as your point then you should at least understand the story

felixomor:

Bring ur Wikipedia na.

whats the meaning of this?

Wilgrea7:


example please...

mineral crystals,,,snowflakes
even tornadoes...etc

ok.. point taken.. I'm not a deist tho.. I'm a Christian.. but i agree with the deistic view sometimes

it is most likely the correct position and view

yes, i can agree with you that time is a frame of events.. but how does a creator existing outside of time insist that time or the events never occur? i posted something about the time-frame of events stuff somewhere on this thread.. and it answered your third question..

do you mean ''events'' do not exist where the creator is?

Just like geometry..just a measure of points etc..
''Geometry'' existed before the universe..because it would be used in creating it.

benzics:


Next time if you want to give a reason why there is a god, you don't tell us everything has a creator when you are not ready to present us with God's creator

The correct argument actually is not what you have written. The correct argument is not that everything has a creator. Please listen and learn: the correct argument is as follows:

- "That everything that begins to exist, must have a cause."

Please note that self existent things never "begin to exist".

Digest that. Thank you.

benzics:

Good morning and a happy Sunday hope most of you went to your house of brainwashing? LOL

Straight to the topic, theists and Deists are fond of saying " how did you exist without a creator ", but the moment you ask them " how did God exist without a creator" they are like, "God is before time, God always was"..

Now how did you get to the conclusion that " god always was ", when you've in fact never seen or heard from this god, you never even studied this god, you just " logically assumed " like my bro Deepsight .

Now I was arguing with this Deist, and he was trying to explain "infinite regress with a permanent something ", so I just acted like I was sharing in his ignorance, and the question is "how did you know that 'god' is that permanent something" ??

Actually, non of these Deists, and Theists know.. They just share in one big river of "ignorance, delusion and assumptions"...

Now I was trying to explain to the theists and Deists using programming's " infinite loop".
If you are a programmer, first you know it's impossible to create a loop using a particular condition, and in the long run, "tweak your condition to suit your explanation" and still maintain the first condition to be true, that's IMPOSSIBLE... Programmers can relate

But this impossible thing is what theists and Deists go about saying "without shame", you create a condition for a God (everything has a creator), then tweak your condition (god has no creator).. It's impossible and to even consider the fact that you know nothing about this "god" of yours!

Next time if you want to give a reason why there is a god, you don't tell us everything has a creator when you are not ready to present us with God's creator, if you want to prove the existence of God to us.. YOU SIMPLY SHOW US GOD!!!

Have a nice day though..

Anything material must have a creator/cause


God is not material,


Hence God does not need a creator to exist.

Kondomatic:

How do you know that the force is gravity? Any evidence to prove that it actually a gravitational force that pulls me down?

''gravity'' is just a name given to that force bro...


And yes..there are evidences of gravity...
Laws and Mathematical calculations that you can do yourself..etc

I dont think you've had basic physics knowledge tho..forgive the input

Kondomatic:
God is just a name Christians give the creator. You can it him anything you like; energy or whatever. It doesn't matter to us.

thats a lie..God is a general term
the christian name for God is yahweh/jehovah

conclusion when you said that none of us has heard from God.

anybody can hear from ''God''
Hindus still hear and talk with ''God''


But not a ''general God''.
.The universal creator is inaudible and imperceptible on a General scale.

peacesamuel94:





Anything material must have a creator/cause


God is not material,


Hence God does not need a creator to exist.

and how do you know that god is not material?

DeepSight:


The correct argument actually is not what you have written. The correct argument is not that everything has a creator. Please listen and learn: the correct argument is as follows:

- "That everything that begins to exist, must have a cause."

Please note that self existent things never "begin to exist".

Digest that. Thank you.

Nice one... Just how you know that god is self existent??

MrMontella:

mineral crystals,,,snowflakes
even tornadoes...etc

they have causes bro... they didn't come from nothing

do you mean ''events'' do not exist where the creator is?

Just like geometry..just a measure of points etc..
''Geometry'' existed before the universe..because it would be used in creating it.

no... i don't mean that events don't exist.. if you agree that time is a measure of events, then you'll agree that my statement will simply mean that the all surpreme creator is not bound by events.. if you agree that time is a measure of events, then for a supreme creator to exist out of time doesn't mean the events don't exist, it only means his existence is not an event.. the existence of humans is an event... cuz it had a start.. but the existence of a creator is not an event because it doesn't have a start, hence, the existence of the creator is outside of time... meaning its not an event

Wilgrea7:


and it all boils down to the same thing you atheists say .... “prove that God exists".. the annoying part is that you expect us to use physical methods to prove the existence of a being all around us.. when we tell you to look at nature and all that is within... when we tell you to look at the galaxies, the nebulas and the different stars, the designs and other obvious facts, you'll claim it came from nothing... nothing that exploded... but you failed to give us the reason why nothing exploded and what made nothing explode. you failed to tell us why and how nothing was able to give laws that planets follow like gravity, magnetism, etc.. you failed to explain how nothing gave birth to all these minerals, plants, in the right order, proportion, etc... why our hands aren't our heads etc... you failed to pay attention to our evidence... we then gave you spiritual evidence... there are things like OBE's, astral travels and dreams.. yet you called it delusions and our mind playing tricks on us.. you call our spiritual nature delusions, we used miracles to prove that there is a supernatural and we tried to show you the spiritual plane through many religions and faiths.. yet you call it delusions... yet you believe your intelligence and brain came from the mistake of nothing.. what other evidence do you want for an all supreme creator? you rejected nature, spirituality and logic.. you rejected evidence right before your eyes.. and then when we ask you to take the final test to prove this God for yourself(which is death) you refuse... and you say we have no proof for God.. we have more than enough proof.. you are proof.. or do you want God to wear a human body and slap you in the face first? your kind of proof is like asking a lion to prove it is powerful by sleeping... it goes against all aspects of reasoning





In whose beginning? God's or ours?.. sorry to burst your bubble... but it was our beginning... and also, if you're using the biblical creation story as your point then you should at least understand the story

Nature is no proof of God, so nature is too beautiful to have come by mistake? Is that what you are saying? The galaxies are just too great to have come by mistake? The human body is too complex to have no creator? Why don't you apply same logic to your god, he is too complex to have no creator too? Isn't it? Else... DOUBLE STANDARDS.

Spirituality? Actually that's BS, there's nothing spiritual about the world, we have lucid dreams (that religious people will characterize as "revelation", sleep paralysis (that religious people will characterize as "spiritual attack" ), what you call miracle is normal to someone else.
Just because you had an accident and everyone else died and only you survived, that is no miracle you self-centered being, so what about those that died? your imaginary friend felt their lives were useless? There is nothing like miracles just co-incidence... I remember once when I was badly in need of money, and from no where someone whom has been owing me for a long time, sent my money.. . If it happened to a Christian, he would probably go to church and give testimony that God delivered him!

So it's we don't understand the creation story now? The same story that has two accounts? Or is it even the Bible that has over a thousand contradicting passages?? (lol forgive my pun though).. . So God is eternal, what was he doing before he created the billions of years earth "6-10,000" years ago? according to that story, the first thing he created is light (without the sun o) [which you Christians say is "symbolic light"], so basically he didn't create water and according to the Bible, earth is the only planet god focuses on out of the 9planets in our solar system, and out of the millions of solar systems we have, god is only interested in the little earth... Lol

The only proof we need of God is to show him to us, or he should show himself or even speak to his creatures abi he's scared we'll bomb him out of the sky?

You say nature was created by God, same way I can tell you Thor and Odin created the world, since we both lack proof, just senseless so called "logical" assumptions

benzics:

Nice one... Just how you know that god is self existent??

Oh its not that hard really, if you pause to reason absent prejudicial notions. My experience of the world however gives me to know that it is rare for an adamant adult to change their opinion on a doctrinal or philosophical matter no matter the evidence or logic presented. So don't worry, I am not even remotely surprised at you.

I have answered this question of yours before but you were far too deep in your rabid fundamentalism to see the answer or understand it. I will answer it again.

- The material universe had a beginning.
- It therefore had a cause.
- A thing cannot be its own cause.
- Thus, matter, being caused, could not have arisen from matter.
- Thus matter was caused by an immaterial element.
- That element necessarily transcends the universe and is thus transcendental.
- Thus the cause is a transcendental immaterial element.
- If the cause transcends time as we know it, this cause is also timeless and therefore eternal.
- We can thus deduce the existence of a transcendental, immaterial and eternal cause.
- An eternal thing has no beginning: it exists by default and is permanent.
- Such a thing is self existent.

As I have said before, examples of self existent things are eternity itself and infinite space.

I hope you grasp this, but I will not be clinging to that hope.

benzics:

Nature is no proof of God, so nature is too beautiful to have come by mistake? Is that what you are saying? The galaxies are just too great to have come by mistake? The human body is too complex to have no creator? Why don't you apply same logic to your god, he is too complex to have no creator too? Isn't it? Else... DOUBLE STANDARDS.

It is not only the fact of the complexity of these things (nature, the universe and man) that leads us to say this: it is also the fact that they evince purpose.

By the way, I don't know of anybody that says that God is Complex. God is more likely the most simple and fundamental founding principle of reality and as such I see no reason to state that God is complex.

PS: Your statement that nature is no proof of God is akin to your statement that science has nothing to do with logic.

Wilgrea7:


they have causes bro... they didn't come from nothing

i said :Randomness produces orderliness...not--nothing produces something..

no... i don't mean that events don't exist.. if you agree that time is a measure of events, then you'll agree that my statement will simply mean that the all surpreme creator is not bound by events.. if you agree that time is a measure of events, then for a supreme creator to exist out of time doesn't mean the events don't exist, it only means his existence is not an event....the existence of humans is an event... cuz it had a start.. but the existence of a creator is not an event because it doesn't have a start, hence, the existence of the creator is outside of time... meaning its not an event

''infinite time'' would be more appropriate..
Time doesnt necessarily have a beginning....The time of an event does not translate to TIME ITSELF..
Ille est; as long as something is existing..Time is....
Because its(the creator)existence is not ''static''(let me use that word) but has ''events'' e.g creating stuffs etc
...it exists in a dimension bounded by time..

DeepSight:


It is not only the fact of the complexity of these things (nature, the universe and man) that leads us to say this: it is also the fact that they evince purpose.

By the way, I don't know of anybody that says that God is Complex. God is more likely the most simple and fundamental founding principle of reality and as such I see no reason to state that God is complex.

PS: Your statement that nature is no proof of God is akin to your statement that science has nothing to do with logic.

Lol, "science has nothing to do with logic", do you ever learn? I thought I broke that statement down to the lowest understandable state? Choi... You can go about saying I said "science has nothing to do with logic", when I in fact said No scientific FACT is BASED on logic

Base
base
bās/
verb
past tense: based; past participle: based
1.
have as the foundation for (something); use as a point from which (something) can develop.

Since it seems your problem is not understanding English..

What scientific fact was founded by logic? What scientific fact was made a fact by "using logic".. You can point just one or forever hold your peace..

And you can as well go about thinking that I meant " no scientific fact is logical ", I know that's what you probably think, since the stupid is visible!!

DeepSight:


Oh its not that hard really, if you pause to reason absent prejudicial notions. My experience of the world however gives me to know that it is rare for an adamant adult to change their opinion on a doctrinal or philosophical matter no matter the evidence or logic presented. So don't worry, I am not even remotely surprised at you.

I have answered this question of yours before but you were far too deep in your rabid fundamentalism to see the answer or understand it. I will answer it again.

- The material universe had a beginning.
- It therefore had a cause.
- A thing cannot be its own cause.
- Thus, matter, being caused, could not have arisen from matter.
- Thus matter was caused by an immaterial element.
- That element necessarily transcends the universe and is thus transcendental.
- Thus the cause is a transcendental immaterial element.
- If the cause transcends time as we know it, this cause is also timeless and therefore eternal.
- We can thus deduce the existence of a transcendental, immaterial and eternal cause.
- An eternal thing has no beginning: it exists by default and is permanent.
- Such a thing is self existent.

As I have said before, examples of self existent things are eternity itself and infinite space.

I hope you grasp this, but I will not be clinging to that hope.

Am just tired really...

What part of "enough of the logical assumptions" don't you get??
You keep saying "universe has a beginning", "it has a cause"... "So yaaay, God is a fact", do you know how stupid you sound right now?
So what if the universe has a beginning, and a cause? Does that mean that "cause" is creation

It is right for you to say "the world has a beginning so I BELIEVE God created the world"

BUT TOTALLY WRONG to say "the world has a beginning so I KNOW there is God" !!!

How Did i miss this? Nawa O so many misconceptions that i cant deal with now..

MrMontella:

i said :Randomness produces orderliness...not--nothing produces something..

sorry.... my bad

''infinite time'' would be more appropriate..
Time doesnt necessarily have a beginning....The time of an event does not translate to TIME ITSELF..
Ille est; as long as something is existing..Time is....
Because its(the creator)existence is not ''static''(let me use that word) but has ''events'' e.g creating stuffs etc
...it exists in a dimension bounded by time..

if you remember in my post i said “taking time as the measure of events" meaning my explanations were on the basis of taking time as a measure of events which is what you actually stated time as ... which was to show you that even if you take time as a measure of events, it only affirms the eternal nature of God and not disprove it . you said the time of an event is not time itself... then if i may ask... what is time itself and how does it disprove the nature of an eternal supreme creator? how can you say God exists in a dimension bounded by time? he exists in different dimensions and is not subject to the laws of those dimensions because he set those laws.. like i said earlier... the creator is not subject to its creation

benzics:

Nature is no proof of God, so nature is too beautiful to have come by mistake? Is that what you are saying? The galaxies are just too great to have come by mistake? The human body is too complex to have no creator? Why don't you apply same logic to your god, he is too complex to have no creator too? Isn't it? Else... DOUBLE STANDARDS.

please... please... for the sake of your dignity... stop... how can you compare the creation to the creator? you are ready to exalt d human body, stars, etc just to discredit the existence of a supreme God. if you've not understood the nature of God we've been saying since, then you need help.. we have told you how and why God is eternal and you're still asking if nature is to beautiful to come by mistake... well yes... nature, ur human body, the order of the universe even to the lowest form of bacteria and cells are too complex to exist without a creator.. the different laws and systems of the universe weren't caused by nothing... they were made by the eternal creator so before you start using dna nd other things to show “order", first realize that they came from an eternal creator

Spirituality? Actually that's BS, there's nothing spiritual about the world, we have lucid dreams (that religious people will characterize as "revelation", sleep paralysis (that religious people will characterize as "spiritual attack" ), what you call miracle is normal to someone else.

when i say miracles, i.mean supernatural things unexplainable by science... I'm sure you must have seen a few videos.. and I'm not just talking about things that happen in church... but you prefer to look for all means to dispute anything supernatural even if you're wrong

Just because you had an accident and everyone else died and only you survived, that is no miracle you self-centered being, so what about those that died? your imaginary friend felt their lives were useless? There is nothing like miracles just co-incidence... I remember once when I was badly in need of money, and from no where someone whom has been owing me for a long time, sent my money.. . If it happened to a Christian, he would probably go to church and give testimony that God delivered him!

i know these seemingly normal things are what you use to dispute the existence of miracles... but there are miracles waaay more spiritual than these ... and also, when a coincidence goes against the laws of physics, its no more a coincidence

So it's we don't understand the creation story now? The same story that has two accounts? Or is it even the Bible that has over a thousand contradicting passages?? (lol forgive my pun though).. . So God is eternal, what was he doing before he created the billions of years earth "6-10,000" years ago? according to that story, the first thing he created is light (without the sun o) [which you Christians say is "symbolic light"], so basically he didn't create water and according to the Bible, earth is the only planet god focuses on out of the 9planets in our solar system, and out of the millions of solar systems we have, god is only interested in the little earth... Lol

i knew it... i knew you'd attack the biblical creation story... the purpose of this thread is to prove that God is eternal, he exists and he does so outside of time... if you want to scrutinize the biblical creation story, open a thread and invite those ready to defend it. i have no desire explaining the biblical story to you.. disproving the biblical creation story does not in any way disprove the existence of an all supreme creator cuz none of the points I've given you since are from the bible.

The only proof we need of God is to show him to us, or he should show himself or even speak to his creatures abi he's scared we'll bomb him out of the sky?

he should show himself to you how?? all your posts are mainly towards the Christian Idea of God... anyways... i previously listed ways God has revealed himself... both physically and spiritually... you chose to ignore it

You say nature was created by God, same way I can tell you Thor and Odin created the world, since we both lack proof, just senseless so called "logical" assumptions

you're funny... anyone can claim to have created the universe... it doesn't mean the universe was never created... its just like 10 people claiming to make a robot ... for the fact different people claim to make the robot doesn't mean the robot wasn't indeed made... but saying that since many people claimed to make the robot, then none of them made it and that the robot came out of nothing or made itself is not only illogical, but goes against all methods of reasoning. I'm not here to argue which God(from any of the religious texts) created the world.. I'm here to tell you that no matter how many claims from different religious books, it doesn't in any way discredit the fact that the universe was created by a supreme being