₦airaland Forum

Empiree:
Well, that's how you understood it but unfortunately, that's not the case. Even though Sheikh Habih ilory who cited the hadith to discredit some Sahih collection did it on purpose to undermine his 'opponents' He knows the hadith MUST be understood in its context. If people take the hadith out of context for their selfish gain, that's their problem. Again this is war context.

Watch 8 minutes video by Sheik Hamza Yusuf. Maybe you will understand better


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2g6chliDIQ

# How are you so sure sheik Habib purposely used the hadith to undermine his opponents? That's kind of sin Quran warns us about.

# Again, show us the context(s) of these ahadith. When, where, and the circumstance...

# Sheik Hamza Yusuf is like you, Empiree - there is nothing wrong in anything, by hook or crook, he will find a way to justify anything.

AlBaqir:
# How are you so sure sheik Habib purposely used the hadith to undermine his opponents? That's kind of sin Quran warns us about.

Bcuz he talks about it in his subsequent lecture. He said "if you (alhusunnah- salafis) would lower your ego, we can help you rectify matn of some of the ahadith i have criticized and fixed them for you and make them sahih again. But for as long as you full of yourselves, those ahadith remain bogus"

AlBaqir:
# How are you so sure sheik Habib purposely used the hadith to undermine his opponents? That's kind of sin Quran warns us about.

# Again, show us the context(s) of these ahadith. When, where, and the circumstance...

# Sheik Hamza Yusuf is like you, Empiree - there is nothing wrong in anything, by hook or crook, he will find a way to justify anything.

I've even watched the video Empiree presented, the sheikh was just blabbing from one point to another, too much sugarcoating as usual.

Empiree:
Bcuz he talks about it in his subsequent lecture. He said "if you (alhusunnah- salafis) would lower your ego, we can help you rectify matn of some of the ahadith i have criticized and fixed them for you and make them sahih again. But for as long as you full of yourselves, those ahadith remain bogus"

# You don't rectify falsehood. Perhaps you miss quote him within another context. Anyway, that's Sheik Habib. My own challenge stands.

tintingz:
I don't need to watch anything it is all sugarcoating, you forgot I was once a sunni Muslim?

Now you are just ignorant.

AlBaqir:
# You don't rectify falsehood. Perhaps you miss quote him within another context. Anyway, that's Sheik Habib. My own challenge stands.

I miss Lagoshia because even though, we had clear differences in belief. He does not back people when they are dancing towards disbelief, he knew when to draw the line on sectarianism.

I am disappointed in your responses here.

Where will you draw the line on sectarianism and address some of the troubling remarks by this kid? Instead, you have quoted hadiths without contexts to support him.

tbaba1234:
I miss Lagoshia because even though, we had clear differences in belief. He does not back people when they are dancing towards disbelief, he knew when to draw the line on sectarianism.

I am disappointed in your responses here.

Where will you draw the line on sectarianism and address some of the troubling remarks by this kid? Instead, you have quoted hadiths without contexts to support him.

Albaqir probably doesnt see that the dude is dancing towards disbelief. i tried to tell him

AlBaqir:
# First, its ONLY you I have seen on this thread that agree wholeheartedly that some Sunni ahadith (especially in Bukhari and Muslim if that is your point) are lies and fabrications. Others will rather die protecting this book written 100+ years after the alleged author. If you also hold the view that those two books are like Quran, 100% free of error, then we do not agree o @underline.

# Second, history do not seem to favor early Muslims especially after the demise of the Prophet. That is a fact which many Muslims shy away from. Some even try their best to justify many heinous crime committed by some of these sahabah saying whatever they do Allah has forgiven them.

# Third, the only area I did not agree with tingtingz is his generalization sometimes, and many a times I had shown my disagreement. However, I haven't seen him attacking Quran . Only ahadith and some weird ideologies based on certain tafasir, fiqh ruling etc.

You both are probably discussing behind the scenes, i hope that al baqir is able to see that he is dancing towards disbelief as you are trying to make him see the shia aspect of it and move him to shiism. just dont egg him on to disbelief. thats all.

because on here thats how it usually start small small.

tbaba1234:
I miss Lagoshia because even though, we had clear differences in belief. He does not back people when they are dancing towards disbelief, he knew when to draw the line on sectarianism.

# Perhaps I missed a lot of things. Do you mind highlighting the areas of disbelief I have backed "people"?

tbaba1234:
I am disappointed in your responses here.

Disappointed in my responses! tbaba1234 of all people.

Have I ever sound pitiful to attract sympathy?!

This is a public forum and it is not necessary we agree. If there are areas you disagree with, never hesitate to state your opposing view. That might help a confusing soul.

tbaba1234:
Where will you draw the line on sectarianism and address some of the troubling remarks by this kid? Instead, you have quoted hadiths without contexts to support him.

So much of these pitiful allegations. Where did I quoted hadiths without contexts to support the " kid"?

If you have forgotten, I opened this present discussion with sickle cell therapy, and I question what Muslims of today have given the world other than hate speech and bogus fatawa. The only two hadith I have quoted so far are at the start of this discussion. Why painting the scene as if every "disbelief" the "kid" spewed, I backed him with supporting hadith.

Sissie:
Albaqir probably doesnt see that the dude is dancing towards disbelief. i tried to tell him

You both are probably discussing behind the scenes, i hope that al baqir is able to see that he is dancing towards disbelief as you are trying to make him see the shia aspect of it and move him to shiism. just dont egg him on to disbelief. thats all.

because on here thats how it usually start small small.

Ya Allah!

# I have never know you with suspicious talk. Some suspicion as stated by the Quran is a sin. Why would you think we are probably discussing behind the scenes? For what?

# Why do you think this is another Sunni-Shia episode as many of you keep on repeating? Why is it that whenever anybody start criticizing or suspecting some ahadith in Sunni books, the person is instantly a shia and wants to start Sunni-Shia "fight"? tintingz has been labeled a shia once and with a fancy fallacy that he's my new recruit.

# For the record, I don't know him. I don't have anything with him. He has a record on NL and I have mine, and this is not my first time of criticizing some so-called " Sahih" hadiths.

# Like I asked tbaba1234, I am asking you too, kindly stated some of the "disbeliefs" he has spewed so far. You have highlighted one earlier that he's talking against "the first three generations which (in your word) also included Ali" and I have responded to it. Madam if that is your definition of "Disbelief", then what makes him different from me? I have repeatedly on many occasions criticised many sahabah and on my life I still maintain it that some of them were hardened criminals whom Quran has promised double chastisement.

AlBaqir:
# You don't rectify falsehood. Perhaps you miss quote him within another context. Anyway, that's Sheik Habib. My own challenge stands.

tintingz:
I've even watched the video Emp.iree presented, the sheikh was just blabbing from one point to another, too much sugarcoating as usual.

Unless you are not interested in the usool of the hadith in question. As you can see from the attachments, it is in harmony with my previous explanation and that of Sheikh Hamza Yusuf

Demmzy15:
Or maybe his school offered it but he was a "NAS" (Non-academic Student). He virtually stabbed all his classes thereby making him bring up irrational points.

Lol..... He needs Aloe vera... Sweet BURN

Sissie:
i am done sef. at this point. tintings wants to wallow in ignorance.

U shoulda known since nao. No matter how authentic ur proofs to him is, he brings out craps from wiki or so!

PS; ignore the ignoramuses.... #_pluralised

tintingz:
What's offensive?

So when Friendchoice called me a foolish liar and even involved my unborn children is not offensive?

This is unfair, is that how you use to do? Continue, there is God.

That's because you are one. Also, don't lie on the brother. He thought you was a father. He was concerned for ur family, bcuz d way u reason is a thing to worry for/abt.

We can only make sincere dua for u and ur co.

Empiree:
Unless you are not interested in the usool of the hadith in question. As you can see from the attachments, it is in harmony with my previous explanation and that of Sheikh Hamza Yusuf

whether 'nas' or nasiru that hadith is all about forcing people to accept Islam.

tbaba1234:
Now you are just ignorant.

I've watched the video, what's your problem?

Sissie:
Albaqir probably doesnt see that the dude is dancing towards disbelief. i tried to tell him

You both are probably discussing behind the scenes, i hope that al baqir is able to see that he is dancing towards disbelief as you are trying to make him see the shia aspect of it and move him to shiism. just dont egg him on to disbelief. thats all.

because on here thats how it usually start small small.

I don't know Albaqir, we've never met nor contact, I took him and Empiree as friends because they are reasonable people here that gave their points without insulting, bullying and threatening.

tbaba1234:
I miss Lagoshia because even though, we had clear differences in belief. He does not back people when they are dancing towards disbelief, he knew when to draw the line on sectarianism.

I am disappointed in your responses here.

Where will you draw the line on sectarianism and address some of the troubling remarks by this kid? Instead, you have quoted hadiths without contexts to support him.

Old papa mister two-face, can you kindly suck it up! Thank you.

The mods can ban me all they want, it shows the level of bias, sentiment filled in this section.

Empiree:
Perhaps, we may need to define EXPEDITION. I am only speaking in the context of modern day "preemptive war" which base on fraud 90% of the time. Preemptive war in the time of rosul (SAW) was justified bcuz it was always happened after series of treason or broken treaties.. So definition of expedition in the time of noble prophet(SAW) is different from today's. That's why i disagree with people saying there is "offensive J!had" in islam. It is all defensive except for Liberating War. Liberating War requires the victims to cry out for help as Quran says


And what is [the matter] with you that you fight not in the cause of Allah and [for] the oppressed among men, women, and children who say, "Our Lord, take us out of this city of oppressive people and appoint for us from Yourself a protector and appoint for us from Yourself a helper?" Sura 4:75

This is ALL I know

1-Defensive War, which is resorted to when the enemies of Muslims attack the religion, honor, property, territories etc..

2-Liberating War, which is done to liberate all those who are oppressed, such as slaves. This form of war was normal in the early days of Islam.

3- Preemptive War, which is launched only when Muslims know for sure that there is treason against their peaceful treaties with the enemy, when the enemy has a serious plan to attack them.


So Iraq war for instance was offensive and illegal. All types of excuses like "we are protecting our interests" was/is reason for wars on other countries, and they called it "preemptive war" is nothing but fraud

You see, I only asked my question in order to understand what you meant by "stay protecting the borders". Any way, you have already answered that Muslims can also lunch offensive wars when justified, and that is what I wanted to let you know.

Secondly, whether USA lied to attack Iraq or not is not really an issue in this discussion, the fact remains that every sovereign nation has the right to defend her territories and protect her interests, even if they have to go on an offensive war. War is a strategy(overt and covert), and one of the tactics of war is a surprise attack, of which the Prophet (SAW) used in some of his battles.

AlBaqir:
# We have seen several verses of the Quran like "verse of sword" (sura Tawbah:5) within its contexts that such verse is restricted and limited. Kindly show us the context(s) of the above-mentioned hadith. When and where and under what circumstance the saying was revealed?!

And you call the above a challenge?!

A single verse taken out of context can be used the way you want to criticize the hadiths you had brought, but to defend the verse quoted in isolation, you would bring other verses of the Qur'an, and in some cases, you bring hadiths. When we say there is an explanation for the narrations you had presented, it means we do not take a single hadith in isolation to form queer conclusions.

The Qur'an and the Hadith goes hand in hand, but in your own case, you tried to put the Qur'an against the hadith which is wrong! I have presented verses from the Qur'an that could easily be misunderstood, but while you accept the Qur'anic verses as being contextual and justified, you failed to also see the narrations to follow suit. Your argument is not based on verifying the truth, it is as a result of your irrational hatred for the Sunni's hadith collections.

Now let me quote another version of your initial hadith that clearly shows that you just don't jump on a single hadith without seeking to learn!

The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: "I was given victory through Ru`b: the enemy becomes filled with Ru`b even though they are the distance of a month's journey away from me." (Ahmad #20337)

Now the word Ru'b translated as terror, is the same word used in the Qur'anic verse below:

We shall cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve because they ascribe unto Allah partners, for which no warrant hath been revealed. Their habitation is the Fire, and hapless the abode of the wrong-doers. (Q 3:151 Picthall)

We can all see that the terror hear does not mean violence or wanton destruction of lives and properties, but fear!

So what is wrong with the hadith again AlBaqir?!

Empiree:
Unless you are not interested in the usool of the hadith in question. As you can see from the attachments, it is in harmony with my previous explanation and that of Sheikh Hamza Yusuf

# Which usool are you talking about. I bet you don't want to read the understanding of some of sahabah on this as documented how they go "authorized" or unauthorized from place to place forcing Islam to the neck of anybody.

# First, endeavor to read the hadith yourself. For example, www.Sunnah.com see Sahih Bukhari hadith 2946. Then, www.qtafsir.com see under surah Tawbah verse 5.

The word used is ( قاتل ) as your attachment try to run away from the word "kill".

The best translation for it is "Kill". Remote meaning is " Fight".

# The hadith is of various version. Some only document "shahadatain" and not alongside this: "salat, zakat, etc" While other added those later words.

# Some try to restrict this hadith (which says people - nas) to "pagan (nonbeliever)" but the understanding of for example Abu Bakr the first Khalifah who ordered the killing of fellow sahabah Malik Ibn Nuwayrah and his brother, Mutamim because they refuse to pay him zakat.
www.quranx.com/Hadith/Muslim/USC-MSA/Book-1/Hadith-29/

The criminal, Khalid Ibn Walid whom the Khalifah sent massacred them all, took the beautiful wife of the deceased and same night slept with her.
Is this a mere fight?. So, qotala here is kill or fight to kill.


# Then your attachment asked his questioner to run away from fiqh Sunnah. Why? He should advice to run away from all other Sunni books of fiqh because all of them unanimously preached terror on this subject and related subject. I referred Sissie to one above. You can equally search and download it. Check the book of jihad.

^^ @ Empiree, here's another scary one:

Narrated Abu Huraira:
The Verse:--"You (true Muslims) are the best of peoples ever raised up for mankind." means, the best of peoples for the people, as you bring them with chains on their necks till they embrace Islam.

USC-MSA web (English) reference : Vol. 6, Book 60, Hadith 80
Arabic reference : Book 65, Hadith 4557

https://sunnah.com/urn/42350

tintingz:
The mods can ban me all they want, it shows the level of bias, sentiment filled in this section.

why are you whining now? i told you to report, but mbanu you didnt, and you are whining. you wish i will ban you so you can cry victim, tah we know that tactic. wear your big boy pants and stop whining. who banned you? dont let me screenshot your ban log and post oh.

Dont feel funky. who is sentimental. what have you written? \

We know your type, when you cannot hold a intelligent conversation/discussion, you play victim. You wish i was biased, really you do.

albaqir I am pretty sure you know what dancing towards something means, dancing towards disbelief. and what probability is.


is discussing behind the scene a bad thing. why oh why do you want to twist it to mean more than what it is not?

I am begging you dont twist things and try to put words in my mouth, or infer what isnt there. Youve been trying to do that with the Aisha age thing and now this. please chill and drink fanta. You know well i dont play that game.

Sissie:
why are you whining now? i told you to report, but mbanu you didnt, and you are whining. you wish i will ban you so you can cry victim, tah we know that tactic. wear your big boy pants and stop whining. who banned you? dont let me screenshot your ban log and post oh.

Dont feel funky. who is sentimental. what have you written? \

We know your type, when you cannot hold a intelligent conversation/discussion, you play victim. You wish i was biased, really you do.

Ok

AlBaqir:
^^ @ Emp.iree, here's another scary one:

Narrated Abu Huraira:
The Verse:--"You (true Muslims) are the best of peoples ever raised up for mankind." means, the best of peoples for the people, as you bring them with chains on their necks till they embrace Islam.

USC-MSA web (English) reference : Vol. 6, Book 60, Hadith 80
Arabic reference : Book 65, Hadith 4557

https://sunnah.com/urn/42350

this hadith here is different from the former. Quran is clear on this. Therefore, I disagree OPENLY with the meaning attributed with the Quran.

Matter of fact, we should improve our understanding of the ayah and put on the bracket "provided". Like this vvv


You are the best people ever raised for mankind, (provided), you enjoin the good and forbid the evil

It's not about chaining people. It's about leading the world in any great things you can think of.

AlBaqir:
^^ @ Empiree, here's another scary one:

Narrated Abu Huraira:
The Verse:--"You (true Muslims) are the best of peoples ever raised up for mankind." means, the best of peoples for the people, as you bring them with chains on their necks till they embrace Islam.

USC-MSA web (English) reference : Vol. 6, Book 60, Hadith 80
Arabic reference : Book 65, Hadith 4557

https://sunnah.com/urn/42350

Here is another case of you trying too hard to find fault where there isn’t. First question is, are Muslims prohibited from taking POW?! Can they chain them or not?!

Since I know you wouldn’t answer, here is the answer from the Qur’an:

"If you meet in battle those who disbelieve, smite their necks. Then, if you have thoroughly subdued them, the bind them firmly, so there will be a time for either generosity or ransom for them until cessation of the war." [Sûrah Muhammad: 4]

Now that the POW is "chained", perhaps by the neck as the narration you presented suggests, what would happen?! Again we go to the Qur’an:

"O Prophet! Say to those who are captives in your hands: 'If Allah finds any good in your hearts, He will give you something better than what has been taken from you and He will forgive you. For Allah is Oft Forgiving, Most Merciful." [Sûrah al-Anfâl: 70]

Interesting, the Prophet (SAW), nay the Muslims, are ordered to offer Islam to these captives (remember, they are in a firm bind), they are to offer them Islam and not force them. I should also state categorically that these are fighters who had been captured in the battle field. But lets go into another narration to see the full explanation of the hadith in question of what transpired between a captive and his captor at war!

“This can clearly be seen in the story of Thamâmah b. Athâl al-Hanafi, an idolater who was captured by the Muslim army in battle and then brought to the mosque where he was restrained. The Prophet approached him respectfully and said: "What have you, O Thamâmah?"

Thamâmah replied: "Actually I have a lot going for me. If you kill me, you kill a man whose blood will surely be avenged. If you are generous, then you are generous to a man who knows how to be grateful. If you are after money, then ask of me whatever amount you like."

The Prophet (peace be upon him) left him at this point. On the second day when he approached him, Thamâmah said basically the same thing. On the third day, the Prophet (peace be upon him) said: "Let Thamâmah go." [Al-Bukhârî (4372) and Muslim (1764)]

They unbound him and let him go. He went on his way, quickly took a bath, and returned, declaring: "I bear witness that there is no God but Allah and I bear witness that you are the Messenger of Allah. O Muhammad! I swear to Allah that there was no man on the face of the Earth who I hated more than you. Now you have become to me the dearest of men. And I swear by Allah that there was no religion on Earth more loathsome to me than your religion, but now it is the most beloved to me of all religions. There was no country on Earth more despised by me than your country, yet now I love it more than any other country in the world."


Source

Thus, I boldly say, the Qur’anic verses and the story show that the narration from Abu Hurayrah is indeed authentic and it is the absolute truth!

AlBaqir:
^^ @ Em.piree, here's another scary one:

Narrated Abu Huraira:
The Verse:--"You (true Muslims) are the best of peoples ever raised up for mankind." means, the best of peoples for the people, as you bring them with chains on their necks till they embrace Islam.

USC-MSA web (English) reference : Vol. 6, Book 60, Hadith 80
Arabic reference : Book 65, Hadith 4557

https://sunnah.com/urn/42350

but why are you suddenly interested in these ahadith lately?. I'm just curious.

AlBaqir:
^^ @ Empiree, here's another scary one:

Narrated Abu Huraira:
The Verse:--"You (true Muslims) are the best of peoples ever raised up for mankind." means, the best of peoples for the people, as you bring them with chains on their necks till they embrace Islam.

USC-MSA web (English) reference : Vol. 6, Book 60, Hadith 80
Arabic reference : Book 65, Hadith 4557

https://sunnah.com/urn/42350

Gods of ife!

Empiree:
this hadith here is different from the former. Quran is clear on this. Therefore, I disagree OPENLY with the meaning attributed with the Quran.

# Both ahadith are view within the same context - forcing people to accept Islam otherwise death.

# Only ardent criminal will try to find excuse for that forgery tagged hadith.