In my experience an Alfa is not different from a babalawo . They hardly speak against speak against babalawos because they lack such moral grounds.
The question now is - is islam religion against voodoo or not?
I need a muslim to shed light on this
Jumah mubarak

listening

RealSleek:

In my experience an Alfa is not different from a babalawo . They hardly speak against speak against babalawos because they lack such moral grounds.
The question now is - is islam religion against voodoo or not?
I need a muslim to shed light on this
Jumah mubarak

# You are right. Majority of "Alfa" we have today are "alufa". An Alfa by Islamic standard should be someone who is characterised by knowledge of God, righteous deeds, worship and reliance on God ONLY. He is expected to be the best of his society so as to serve as a leader, role model and guide on the path of truth. Unfortunately, the reverse is the case on many so called Alfas.


# Islam as a religion is vehemently against voodoo, juju and magic for the reason being that all those acts are handiwork of evil/Satan. Both Quran and several traditions of our Prophet condemned it that whosoever engage in it will not prosper.


# Why are some Muslims, some Alfas engage in it? Quran says:


Surah Al-Baqara, Verse 8 - 9:

And there are some people who say: We believe in Allah and the last day; and they are not at all believers.

They desire to deceive Allah and those who believe, and they deceive only themselves and they do not perceive.

# Now see how those who engage in this evil acts continue to fool themselves: Every salat they performed, they used to say:

Surah Al-Fatiha, Verse 5:

(Only)You (Oh Lord) do we serve and from You (only) do we beseech for help

Then, Quran expose their lies thus:

Surah Al-Baqara, Verse 14:
And when they meet those who believe, they say: We believe; and when they are alone with their Satans, they say: Surely we are with you, we were only mocking.

So you can clearly see how they deceive themselves. Obviously you cannot serve God and mammoth together.


# Finally, when you see a Muslim doing evil, do not attack Islam for it. A muslim can choose to uphold the command of God and he chose to go against it. Qur'an defines who a Muslim is thus:

Surah Al-Hujraat, Verse 14:

The dwellers of the desert say: We believe. Say: You do not believe but say, We submit; and faith has not yet entered into your hearts; and if you obey Allah and His Apostle, He will not diminish aught of your deeds; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

The word "believe" in that verse is "Mu'min" while the word "we submit" is "Muslim". Technically you submit by mouth only not by heart.

So, a Muslim is a Muslim outwardly therefore could have his actions contradictory to some or all teachings of Islam. But a Mu'min who is first a Muslim is so upgraded that his actions are par with the teachings of Islam.

Babalawos are traditional consultants just like we have Alfas or sheikhs, there are good and bad babalawos just like Alfas. What this foreign religion has done to damage African religion is alarming. They have painted traditional religion as evil practice influenced by Satan.

There are magics a.k.a miracles performed by men of God in the Quran and many Alfas are doing it so what is the difference with what babalawos are doing?

If you believe in miracles then you stylishly believe in magic, I wonder why some group decide to call theirs miracle and called others magic, i personally don't really believe in all these magic, voodoo, miracle ish, they are more like magical-tricks.

Some Religious groups have tried to make miracle different from magic but they forgot both are under law of attraction.

^^^

# I tried my best to focus purely on Muslims who practice voodoo and juju. And my definition of voodoo and juju is something evil from the devil. And by Devil, I mean Islamic religious understanding of shaytan.

# Yoruba traditional religion understanding of "Èsù" is not the same as Islamic submission of "Shaytan". Èsù is one of the gods of Yoruba traditional religion, and he has power of both good and evil.

# What is Yoruba traditional religion?
First, all the Yoruba stories of Oduduwa, Obatala coming from heaven, creation of the earth, Ile Ife is the source of the world, etc; None of these stories is scientifically proven. They are nothing but tales until they can prove it with modern day technology. Telling us their answer and documentation is in " Odu ifa" is nothing. Via genetic research and findings, Yoruba race with language only probably appear less than 2000 years ago (?). The oldest race and language in Africa is somewhere in the Eastern Africa. How and when did Yoruba came about its religious theory is yet to be proven? The only submission they proffer is "Ifa" which they believe was brought by legend "Obatala".


# Second, it is a fact Islam and Christianity are "foreign religion". Question: So what? Following a " foreign religion" does not mean I have abandoned my identity and culture. Religion is different from Culture. Yoruba religion believe in God called "Olodumare". And they believe He has " ìránsé (messengers)" who are in charge of specific works and responsibilities. All these are no different from Islam as we also believe in God and angels and prophets. Yoruba further believe those "ìránsé" were "gods" which have independent power (though some of them claimed those power were bestowed to them by Olodumare). Islam does not believe in "gods". The characteristics of each of these Yoruba gods on the face of morality contradict Islamic principles. For example, Òsun is portrayed to be extremely pretty who at several occasions snatch other women's husband. Or Obatala morímorí (head moulder) who was so fond of palm wine that he got drunk until he made several mistakes in head moulding thereby the differences in people's head today. Or Sango, the god of thunderstorm, or Ogun, the god of Iron. Scientifically, Iron is derived from iron-ore (fe2+, fe3+ etc) while thunderstorm is caused by excessive heat particles (from the sun) and certain reaction from the atmosphere. Submission that certain gods are responsible for those things is superstition.

And each and all these gods has/have their specific form of rituals and sacrifices to appease them. For example, Odún Ògún (Ogun's festival): You cut a live dog with sharpened cutlass or sword into two halves. What about Odún Òsun (Osun's festival) where foods like èko, èfó etc are thrown into the so-called " Òsun river" to appease her?

Scientifically, all these made no sense. They are nothing but fairy tales. Islamically too, all those things are nonsense. And rationally, you do not expect me practising such religion.


# Magic and Miracle

* Magic is Idán in Yoruba, and it is different from "Òogùn (voodoo or juju). Not all Yoruba traditionalist practice Magic as they practice Òogùn. In fact majority of Yoruba traditionalist go against it as they believe it is deceit hence it is labeled "Idán" (i.e idandan - shubuhat in Arabic language, that is "something that is not real but seem real to the eyes".) This is the exact definition Islam gives for "magic". Magic is not only in Yoruba traditional beliefs and society but it exist in all cultures and traditions.

* Source of Magic

Islam belief Magic to be an "art or science" that can be learnt. And truly that is what it is. Islam believe it is one of handiwork of Shaytan (here, not Yoruba's Èsù). In fact, certain individuals of the old Babylonia were mentioned in the Qur'an to be excellent teachers of Magic. And they do warn people that seek this path of miserable end. Likewise, in every culture and tradition, there are teachers of Magic.


# Miracle and Karamat
By definition, this is something beyond human ability and comprehension (at least for NOW). Islam believe it is done by the absolute power of God. And whoever performed it, its by the leaves and permission of God. And in Islam, it is not done but for a rational and specific purpose(s). For example, Moses and the Israelites wouldn't have made it had the sea not parted for them.

Another good example that portrayed the difference between Magic and Miracle was the confrontation between the Pharaoh's magician and Prophet Moses. The magicians laid down there sticks and ropes and those things APPEARED, SEEMED like snakes in the eyes and sense of the observers. Musa by the Power of his Lord, laid down his staff and it became real snake to the fear and surprise of the magicians. Musa's snake gulped up those fake snakes of the magicians. And according to Qur'an, "they feel down in prostration by acknowledge the Lord of Harun and Musa.



# What Is Òogùn?
Here we talk anything in nature that you can add to something of its like or opposite, which gives either bad or good reactions. Even, drug/medicine both local and modern are under Òogùn. Again, it is an art, a science and its found in every age and civilisations and even in Islam. This is different from Ofò (incantation) where evil spirit's help is sought. Some people unfortunately combined the two (Òogùn and Ofò) together. This is where I think Islam draws line.

# Onísègùn is different from Aláwo.

"Onisegun is different from Alawo"


Very true. The former is what is termed "Jalabi" by Yoruba Alfas. Corrupt version of it we have today is "Alawo" masquerading themselves as 'Alfas'. Just it is hard for some people like tintingz to differentiate karamot(miracles of wally), mujizat (miracles of nubuwa) from magic. Their outward appearances are usually the same. But the sources are different.


The term "Jalabi" if translated to English should give us same meaning and same essence of medical practitioners.


So modern Muslims usually do not differentiate Jalabi practices from Alawo practices which is just unfortunately sad. Yet, they go to get medical help from modern orthodox medical practitioners. The only difference between Jalabi and modern orthodox medicals is that the former has religious connotation. That's my opinion.


And a major difference between Jalabi (onisegun) and Alawo is where Islam draws the line. So it is hypocritical to condemn onisegun but then see no big deal on taking orthodox medicine.


#myopinion

AlBaqir:
^^^

# I tried my best to focus purely on Muslims who practice voodoo and juju. And my definition of voodoo and juju is something evil from the devil. And by Devil, I mean Islamic religious understanding of shaytan.

Ok, can miracle comes from a dark force/energy?

# Yoruba traditional religion understanding of "Èsù" is not the same as Islamic submission of "Shaytan". Èsù is one of the gods of Yoruba traditional religion, and he has power of both good and evil.

Yes correct.
One question did Allah has power of both good and evil?

# What is Yoruba traditional religion?
First, all the Yoruba stories of Oduduwa, Obatala coming from heaven, creation of the earth, Ile Ife is the source of the world, etc; None of these stories is scientifically proven. They are nothing but tales until they can prove it with modern day technology. Telling us their answer and documentation is in " Odu ifa" is nothing. Via genetic research and findings, Yoruba race with language only probably appear less than 2000 years ago (?). The oldest race and language in Africa is somewhere in the Eastern Africa. How and when did Yoruba came about its religious theory is yet to be proven? The only submission they proffer is "Ifa" which they believe was brought by legend "Obatala".

Lol, why focusing on yoruba race? why not africa generally? There is no accurate date when yoruba race begins. Yorubas already existed even before Oduduwa came.

The story of Obatala is the creation of humanity that originated from Ile ife how is that different from jewish story? where is the prove Adam and eve existed. show me prove of adam and eve and garden of eden, their generational tree was linked to a hebrew man named Abraham who became the father of all nation, how did all race black, white, red, orange came to be from this hebrew man. Till date many people imagine Adam and eve to be middle east people reason because this story was from middle east no other race root believe in adamic story.

# Second, it is a fact Islam and Christianity are "foreign religion". Question: So what? Following a " foreign religion" does not mean I have abandoned my identity and culture. Religion is different from Culture. Yoruba religion believe in God called "Olodumare". And they believe He has " ìránsé (messengers)" who are in charge of specific works and responsibilities. All these are no different from Islam as we also believe in God and angels and prophets. Yoruba further believe those "ìránsé" were "gods" which have independent power (though some of them claimed those power were bestowed to them by Olodumare). Islam does not believe in "gods". The characteristics of each of these Yoruba gods on the face of morality contradict Islamic principles. For example, Òsun is portrayed to be extremely pretty who at several occasions snatch other women's husband. Or Obatala morímorí (head moulder) who was so fond of palm wine that he got drunk until he made several mistakes in head moulding thereby the differences in people's head today. Or Sango, the god of thunderstorm, or Ogun, the god of Iron. Scientifically, Iron is derived from iron-ore (fe2+, fe3+ etc) while thunderstorm is caused by excessive heat particles (from the sun) and certain reaction from the atmosphere. Submission that certain gods are responsible for those things is superstition.

All religion originated from tribal practice, the reason religions are base on tribal practice and beliefs, even their Gods speak to their people. Yahweh speaks to jewish people, Allah speaks to arabs, Olorun speaks to yorubas, Zeus speaks to greeks, Odin speaks to germans, Unkulunkulu speaks to south africans, Krishna speaks to indians, Di-jun speaks to chinese etc

And actually, all these Gods have some ridiculous stories and character that if i start saying them, some hypocrites will call me blasphemer.

And each and all these gods has/have their specific form of rituals and sacrifices to appease them. For example, Odún Ògún (Ogun's festival): You cut a live dog with sharpened cutlass or sword into two halves. What about Odún Òsun (Osun's festival) where foods like èko, èfó etc are thrown into the so-called " Òsun river" to appease her?

Muslims also do rituals and sacrifices every year to Allah even going as far to saud arabia to do some rituals, you cant exclude that.

I see all religion linked in practice, some religion decide to upgrade than others.

Scientifically, all these made no sense. They are nothing but fairy tales. Islamically too, all those things are nonsense. And rationally, you do not expect me practising such religion.

If you said their beliefs are fairytale then the stories in Quran are not fairytales? How can a chariot of fire flew Elijah to the sky? Or Moses splitting the sea? or Muhammad rode on a flying horse? or a ark saved the whole creature from a flood that cover the earth? If you want to talk about science and rationality you need to prove all these scientifically and rationally.

# Magic and Miracle

* Magic is Idán in Yoruba, and it is different from "Òogùn (voodoo or juju). Not all Yoruba traditionalist practice Magic as they practice Òogùn. In fact majority of Yoruba traditionalist go against it as they believe it is deceit hence it is labeled "Idán" (i.e idandan - shubuhat in Arabic language, that is "something that is not real but seem real to the eyes".) This is the exact definition Islam gives for "magic". Magic is not only in Yoruba traditional beliefs and society but it exist in all cultures and traditions.

There is Ogun as medicine/therapy and there is Ogun as supernatural force(positive or negative force) that comes from an entity. Ogun is used for doing good and also for doing bad, but what i understand about Ogun is actually used to do justice.

In magic there is real magic and there is trick magic, according to meaning of magic : the power of apparently influencing the course of events by using mysterious or supernatural forces. how does this different from miracle?

* Source of Magic

Islam belief Magic to be an "art or science" that can be learnt. And truly that is what it is. Islam believe it is one of handiwork of Shaytan (here, not Yoruba's Èsù). In fact, certain individuals of the old Babylonia were mentioned in the Qur'an to be excellent teachers of Magic. And they do warn people that seek this path of miserable end. Likewise, in every culture and tradition, there are teachers of Magic.

Like the definition said, magic is an influence or a cause from a supernatural force, no need to twist it to any islamic thing.

I can perform a miracle and said the source is from the universe which is my God, will you call it magic?

# Miracle and Karamat
By definition, this is something beyond human ability and comprehension (at least for NOW). Islam believe it is done by the absolute power of God. And whoever performed it, its by the leaves and permission of God. And in Islam, it is not done but for a rational and specific purpose(s). For example, Moses and the Israelites wouldn't have made it had the sea not parted for them.

Miracle and magic are both similar the same thing just that religious people decide to twist and use one from the other when it comes use of word.

Another good example that portrayed the difference between Magic and Miracle was the confrontation between the Pharaoh's magician and Prophet Moses. The magicians laid down there sticks and ropes and those things APPEARED, SEEMED like snakes in the eyes and sense of the observers. Musa by the Power of his Lord, laid down his staff and it became real snake to the fear and surprise of the magicians. Musa's snake gulped up those fake snakes of the magicians. And according to Qur'an, "they feel down in prostration by acknowledge the Lord of Harun and Musa.

Even tho this story is kind of bias and fairytaled, so Moses stick turning into snake was not a form of magic, tell me the difference in what moses did and the magicians?

# What Is Òogùn?
Here we talk anything in nature that you can add to something of its like or opposite, which gives either bad or good reactions. Even, drug/medicine both local and modern are under Òogùn. Again, it is an art, a science and its found in every age and civilisations and even in Islam. This is different from Ofò (incantation) where evil spirit's help is sought. Some people unfortunately combined the two (Òogùn and Ofò) together. This is where I think Islam draws line.

# Onísègùn is different from Aláwo.

Ofo is like praying, muslims pray using portion from the Quran abeg what is the diff? Oogun is power of justice just like ying yang.

Empiree:
"Onisegun is different from Alawo"


Very true. The former is what is termed "Jalabi" by Yoruba Alfas. Corrupt version of it we have today is "Alawo" masquerading themselves as 'Alfas'. Just it is hard for some people like tintingz to differentiate karamot(miracles of wally), mujizat (miracles of nubuwa) from magic. Their outward appearances are usually the same. But the sources are different.

What if i have my own God which is the universe, and i perform a miracle, will you call it magic?

tintingz:
What if i have my own God which is the universe, and i perform a miracle, will you call it magic?

UNTIL you have "YOUR OWN WORLD".

"What if" is your fictitious supposition. We can only talk about this when you have your " own world"

Empiree:
UNTIL you have "YOUR OWN WORLD".

"What if" is your fictitious supposition. We can only talk about this when you have your " own world"

Lol, ok.. My God(universo) is the creator of all and his followers have performed miracles. are the miracles magic?

tintingz:
Lol, ok.. My God(universo) is the creator of all and his followers have performed miracles. are the miracles magic?

is this "God" of yours known to others except you and where is his manifesto, power and authority. Revelations and his messangers sent to the world?. Is his 'universo' different from the one in which we live in?.

You gonna have to answer these before we can even talk about "his miracles"

Empiree:
is this "God" of yours known to others except you and where is his manifesto, power and authority. Revelations and his messangers sent to the world?. Is his 'universo' different from the one in which we live in?.

Lol, to prove a God exist it has to be known by many people? The reason i said in a thread that it is people that makes God almighty.

Anyways my God(universo) is known by all, the universe. And he has revelations and prophets a.k.a superheros.

You gonna have to answer these before we can even talk about "his miracles"

I have answered so let talk about his prophets and miracles, one of them is superman(clerk kent), he has saved lives with his powers.

tintingz:
Ok, can miracle comes from a dark force/energy?

# No, as far as Islamic belief and definition of Miracle is concerned.

tintingz:

Yes correct.
One question did Allah has power of both good and evil?

# Allah does not do evil. Evil comes as a result of man's freewill.

tintingz:

Lol, why focusing on yoruba race? why not africa generally? There is no accurate date when yoruba race begins. Yorubas already existed even before Oduduwa came.

# That's what I have faithfully studied apart from the fact that I am a Yoruba man. So the urge of knowing more about your race and source made me focused on it.

# If there is no accurate date when Yoruba race begins, what is obvious is that Yoruba is never the source of human development or civilisation.

# People with Oduduwa's theory will never agree to your theory up there.

tintingz:


The story of Obatala is the creation of humanity that originated from Ile ife how is that different from jewish story? where is the prove Adam and eve existed. show me prove of adam and eve and garden of eden, their generational tree was linked to a hebrew man named Abraham who became the father of all nation, how did all race black, white, red, orange came to be from this hebrew man. Till date many people imagine Adam and eve to be middle east people reason because this story was from middle east no other race root believe in adamic story.

# Far far different. Today we have "scientific Adam" proven to be from Africa, a black man, and his "garden of Eden" in Africa. Though scientific research and findings seem to be beyond this "scientific Adam", however, the concept is all men irrespective of your race or color originated from one man, a black man, an African man. Chinese as much white as they are, research proved the first inhabitants of that vast area were black before the white skin "evolve".

# There is a difference between what people imagine and what is proven to be fact/truth. People might imagine Adam and Eve to be middle east that doesn't make it any fact until we have a prove. Moses and Jesus were portrayed " white skinned" only because of those that brought religion, not facts from the religious book. There was a time there is only one continent. Gradually, other continents formed and man migrate from one place to the other.


# Obatala's theory is nothing like that. Obatala is believed to be a " god" in heaven who mould all human being. Apparently that included all races and skin. And Oduduwa is believed to come (sent) from heaven with a hen, some handful soil, cowries etc. He landed on water, spread the sand on it and it became land etc. We also have this kind of legend in books of hadith and tafasir. Those are tales.

tintingz:

All religion originate from tribal practice, the reason religions are base on tribal practice and believe, even their Gods speak to their people. Yahweh speaks to jewish people, Allah speaks to arabs, Olorun speaks to yorubas, Zeus speaks to greeks, Odin speaks to germans, Unkulunkulu speaks to south africans, Krishna speaks to indians, Di-jun speaks to chinese etc

# I don't know what you meant by "tribal practice". Islam for example originated from a particular area of Arabia (where its culture, lifestyle etc is even different from other parts of Arabia). Islam met Jewism, Christianism, idolism, etc. The fact is that "people sent" to propagate each of these "isms" will definitely speak in the language of their people for understanding and acquaintances. And just like man migrate/move from one place to another, so is his thought religion and culture.

# How do you choose? Via your intellect and freewill or freewill and desire or via force or via dogmatism. It is not written anywhere that you must practice a religion because your forefathers established or practised it.

tintingz:

And actually, all these Gods have some ridiculous stories and character that if i start saying them, some hypocrites will call me blasphemer.

# Present the attributes of your God and I will present mine. Let's see where we disagree in our God's attributes. At the end we might accept certain unifying factors. This is the call of Quran to all Deists.

tintingz:

Muslims also do rituals and sacrifices every year to Allah even going as far to saud arabia to do some rituals, you cant exclude that.

I see all religion linked in practice, some religion decide to upgrade than others.

# Unfortunately And unfortunately majority misinterpreted this entirely. The so-called "Ram sacrifice" after hajj rites is a FEAST never sort of Sacrifice to God. Here Qur'an and hadith firmly state, Allah has nothing to do with the blood or meat. He only concerns about your piety (and your righteous intentions in extending those gifts/food to yourselves).

# Your Ògún or Òsun's sacrifice is nothing like that. Here sacrifices are meant to pleased these gods.

tintingz:



If you said their beliefs are fairytale then the stories in Quran are not fairytales? How can a chariot of fire flew Elijah to the sky? Or Moses splitting the sea? or Muhammad rode on a flying horse? or a ark saved the whole creature from a flood that cover the earth? If you want to talk about science and rationality you need to prove all these scientifically and rationally.

# First, prove it to me that it is a "god" called "Sango" that causes thunderstorms. Or Ògún is the god/source/bestower of Iron.

# Scientist of today still have it as a mystery to rationalize The Pyramid of the Egyptian civilisation. David's skills of iron and metals (in technology) is believed in religious books to be so advanced that it surpassed what we know today. Are you ruling out a possibility of Elijah's advanced technology to fly up the sky when today's technology have similar style and we expect next generation's to be badass?!

# Personally, I am from a background and school of thought that believed that a time will come where the "miracles" of parting the sea of Musa, the revival of the dead of Eesa etc will be rationally understood and practised. Aeroplane of today would have definitely be a Miracle to the people of the past. And its gonna be obsolete to the coming generations.

tintingz:


There is Ogun as medicine/therapy and there is Ogun as supernatural force(positive or negative force) that comes from an entity. Ogun is used for doing good and also for doing bad, but what i understand about Ogun is actually used to do justice.

# Don't mix it up bro. We have "cause and effect".

* Òogùn as medicine: For example, ewé ati egbò (cause), grind it together, add A, B, C, D of natural sources to cure a disease ( now this is EFFECT).


* Òogùn as juju: This could involve the above, or part of human being + Ofò (incantations calling gods or spirits for help or certain effects). This is Cause here.
The "supernatural force" here whereby a another person is set to die, or run mad or even for goodness, is the EFFECT here. Islam reject this even if you claim to use it for "good". Why?

For the fact that other entities have been called for help and the fact that it has involved certain sacrifice to appease those gods or human is killed and it's body part or blood is used.

* Òogùn as Àbámadá and Èpè: These are forms of incantation, and Èpè is a concocted supernatural substance (very small like agbanrin) that if for example, you throw it on a tree, it will shed all its leaves and dried up.

There are obviously other forms of of Òogùn.

tintingz:


In magic there is real magic and there is trick magic, according to meaning of magic : the power of apparently influencing the course of events by using mysterious or supernatural forces. how does this different from miracle?

Like the definition said, magic is an influence or a cause from a supernatural force, no need to twist it to any islamic thing.

I can perform a miracle and said the source is from the universe which is my God, will you call it magic?

# First, there is nothing like trick and real magic. Magic is magic. There tricks, effects and external evil forces used might be different but magic is still magic.

Like Empiree beautifully summarised, Miracle and magic seem the same (in thinking of people like you), their source, effect and aim are different.

Empiree:
is this "God" of yours known to others except you and where is his manifesto, power and authority. Revelations and his messangers sent to the world?. Is his 'universo' different from the one in which we live in?.

You gonna have to answer these before we can even talk about "his miracles"

I have challenged him to submit the credentials and attributes and manifestations of his God to us. Really am waiting.

AlBaqir:


# No, as far as Islamic belief and definition of Miracle is concerned.

Using Islamic meaning of miracle will contradict the general meaning, which can't be accepted in an argument.

# Allah does not do evil. Evil comes as a result of man's freewill.

Oh really?

- Why did Allah create Satan?

- Why did Allah said he test humans?

# That's what I have faithfully studied apart from the fact that I am a Yoruba man. So the urge of knowing more about your race and source made me focused on it.

Ok

# If there is no accurate date when Yoruba race begins, what is obvious is that Yoruba is never the source of human development or civilisation.

I never claim Yoruba are the source of human development and civilization, each tribes were already developing and civilizing on thier own.

# People with Oduduwa's theory will never agree to your theory up there.

There are Yorubas living before Oduduwa came, Oduduwa was the first king sent by the Gods to start a dynasty.

# Far far different. Today we have "scientific Adam" proven to be from Africa, a black man, and his "garden of Eden" in Africa. Though scientific research and findings seem to be beyond this "scientific Adam", however, the concept is all men irrespective of your race or color originated from one man, a black man, an African man. Chinese as much white as they are, research proved the first inhabitants of that vast area were black before the white skin "evolve".

According to religious beliefs Adam was tan/red in skin color because of his name Adam.

The scientific Adam you're talking about was not the only man living then, the reason they called him Adam was because his chromosome was the only one that can be traced because other men chromosome gone extinct, so they borrowed the Jewish name Adam.

# There is a difference between what people imagine and what is proven to be fact/truth. People might imagine Adam and Eve to be middle east that doesn't make it any fact until we have a prove. Moses and Jesus were portrayed " white skinned" only because of those that brought religion, not facts from the religious book. There was a time there is only one continent. Gradually, other continents formed and man migrate from one place to the other.

Moses, Jesus are from middle east, Jewish people, they are white/red in skin. If Jesus was a black man then Mary should be black woman.

# Obatala's theory is nothing like that. Obatala is believed to be a " god" in heaven who mould all human being. Apparently that included all races and skin. And Oduduwa is believed to come (sent) from heaven with a hen, some handful soil, cowries etc. He landed on water, spread the sand on it and it became land etc. We also have this kind of legend in books of hadith and tafasir. Those are tales.

You're mixing thing up. Obatala was the one sent by Olorun to create the world given him hen, corn with sand, Oduduwa was a king that ruled some years after in ile ife.

Middle east creation, Allah created the world in some few days, made Adam in an unknown place, told his angels and jins to bow to Adam and Satan refused, later on Satan tempted them bla bla bla, all these sounds like tales.

# I don't know what you meant by "tribal practice". Islam for example originated from a particular area of Arabia (where its culture, lifestyle etc is even different from other parts of Arabia). Islam met Jewism, Christianism, idolism, etc. The fact is that "people sent" to propagate each of these "isms" will definitely speak in the language of their people for understanding and acquaintances. And just like man migrate/move from one place to another, so is his thought religion and culture.

Lol, All religion are base on tribal practice, influence. The wearing of veil was a middle eastern practice before Islam came, Arabic is an Arab language, stoning adulterers was a middle east practice, keeping beards was a practice before Islam came, Islamic names are Arabic, burying dead body in the same day was a practice in middle east, turban was worn before Islam came, Allah is an Arabic language etc these are Arab cultures.

Where did Allah sent his prophet to Yorubas or Chinese?

# How do you choose? Via your intellect and freewill or freewill and desire or via force or via dogmatism. It is not written anywhere that you must practice a religion because your forefathers established or practised it.

There is something called heritage, Islamic practice does not harmonize with Yoruba culture. If these foreigners didn't force their religion on Africa we will still be practicing our traditional religion, so oga that freewill didn't work there.

# Present the attributes of your God and I will present mine. Let's see where we disagree in our God's attributes. At the end we might accept certain unifying factors. This is the call of Quran to all Deists.

Your God command men to beat their wives, my God didn't, your God command adulterers to be stoned to death, my God didn't gave such rules.

# Unfortunately And unfortunately majority misinterpreted this entirely. The so-called "Ram sacrifice" after hajj rites is a FEAST never sort of Sacrifice to God. Here Qur'an and hadith firmly state, Allah has nothing to do with the blood or meat. He only concerns about your piety (and your righteous intentions in extending those gifts/food to yourselves).

# Your Ògún or Òsun's sacrifice is nothing like that. Here sacrifices are meant to pleased these gods.

Muslims are appeasing Allah with rams and rituals in Kaaba or was the story not about Abraham sacrificing his son to Allah?, the Gods like Ogun, Osun, Olorun does not eat those foods as well. There are no difference.

# First, prove it to me that it is a "god" called "Sango" that causes thunderstorms. Or Ògún is the god/source/bestower of Iron.

Why not prove to me Allah causes thunderstorm?

And don't forget Zeus, Thor are also Gods of thunder.

# Scientist of today still have it as a mystery to rationalize The Pyramid of the Egyptian civilisation. David's skills of iron and metals (in technology) is believed in religious books to be so advanced that it surpassed what we know today. Are you ruling out a possibility of Elijah's advanced technology to fly up the sky when today's technology have similar style and we expect next generation's to be badass?!

# Personally, I am from a background and school of thought that believed that a time will come where the "miracles" of parting the sea of Musa, the revival of the dead of Eesa etc will be rationally understood and practised. Aeroplane of today would have definitely be a Miracle to the people of the past. And its gonna be obsolete to the coming generations.

Lol, aeroplane was invevted by men but Elijah story was about a mysterious chariot filled with fire came down from the sky to carry Elijah, how can a human sit on a chariot with fire?! Which kyn technology be that?

If ocean can be split into two with technology, all hail human intellect, but not the one that just mysteriously split into two in few minutes with nothing holding the two side, a sea that is deep?!

# Don't mix it up bro. We have "cause and effect".

* Òogùn as medicine: For example, ewé ati egbò (cause), grind it together, add A, B, C, D of natural sources to cure a disease ( now this is EFFECT).


* Òogùn as juju: This could involve the above, or part of human being + Ofò (incantations calling gods or spirits for help or certain effects). This is Cause here.
The "supernatural force" here whereby a another person is set to die, or run mad or even for goodness, is the EFFECT here. Islam reject this even if you claim to use it for "good". Why?

For the fact that other entities have been called for help and the fact that it has involved certain sacrifice to appease those gods or human is killed and it's body part or blood is used.

* Òogùn as Àbámadá and Èpè: These are forms of incantation, and Èpè is a concocted supernatural substance (very small like agbanrin) that if for example, you throw it on a tree, it will shed all its leaves and dried up.

There are obviously other forms of of Òogùn.

Lol, stop confusing yourself and being sentimental sir,

Muslims read the Quran portion for miracle to happen even inside water, honey, pray solat, do some ritual bathing, abeg how does it different from incantation and Oogun(supernatural force)? Oogun is not always about used for bad things, it is used for justice. E.g If a thief is caught, he will use oogun to swear. If someone has a spiritual problem they will use oogun to cure the person.

Stop being sentimental and accept they are the same concept.

# First, there is nothing like trick and real magic. Magic is magic. There tricks, effects and external evil forces used might be different but magic is still magic.

There is magic trick the ones they use for entertainment or to decieve someone, they call them illusionist or psychs. And there is real magic the ones that is cause by a supernatural force/entity just like miracle.

There are many religions that uses magic like the animism, shamanism.

Like Empiree beautifully summarised, Miracle and magic seem the same (in thinking of people like you), their source, effect and aim are different.

Their source, aim, effect are the same.

I asked you what is the different between Moses turning the stick into snake and magicians doing same?

What's all this epistles?
Simpler question ..does Islam supports use of juju/voodoo....all i need is yes o, no o ..and give some quranic verse to back it up

Pls not all this human reasonings/twisting you are bringing out.

oogun can be used for good and evil agreed ,but what's the source and the backing? Allah?
Cc AlBaqir

RealSleek:
What's all this epistles?
Simpler question ..does Islam supports use of juju/voodoo....all i need is yes o, no o ..and give some quranic verse to back it up

Pls not all this human reasonings/twisting you are bringing out.

Smh oogun can be used for good and evil agreed ,but what's the source? Allah?

First you need to do is define what Juju is and what Voodoo is. Not what people do.

For instance, crazy people who kill and use human blood to prepare medicine also call it juju or voodoo.


Ground leafs and roots mixed with raw black soap may be considered juju/voodoo as well. The former is haram. The later is halal. The later can be backed up with Quran and Sunnah

As it is in our current situation, both Juju and voodoo have negative connotations.

tintingz:
Using Islamic meaning of miracle will contradict the general meaning, which can't be accepted in an argument.

# You are the one that is hellbent trying to match the two together.

# I have given you Islamic definition of Miracle and Magic and I have explain what both are in the eyes of their respective adherents.

# Kindly give us:

1. Islamic definition of Miracle,

2. Yoruba definition of Islamic miracle,

3. Yoruba definition of Idán

4. Does Yoruba believe Miracle to be Idán?

Those are set of questions before you.
Stop killing yourself with my definitions, give us yours

tintingz:

Oh really?

- Why did Allah create Satan?

- Why did Allah said he test humans?

# You love creating threads within thread (derailing from main topic). Its what I hate most. In fact you push me this far replying to irrelevant questions.

Save that. There time for discussion will come in sha Allah.

tintingz:

According to religious beliefs Adam was tan/red in skin color because of his name Adam.

# You mind giving us that "religious beliefs"? Islam uses Quran and hadith, I wish to remind you.

# Adam, according to dictionary is also black. Empiree, seem you posted something on this recently?!

Obviously, " religious" dictionary meaning can give us different ideas perhaps based on certain influences.

tintingz:

The scientific Adam you're talking about was not the only man living then, the reason they called him Adam was because his chromosome was the only one that can be traced because other men chromosome gone extinct, so they borrowed the Jewish name Adam.

# That's exactly the reason I said, "Though scientific research and findings prove beyond this scientific Adam but the concept....".

The research is still open perhaps the sole " tree" will be discovered.


# However, Adam according to Quran was "complete (kamil)" in his creation. This is what most of Muslim scientists believed to be the first "Homo sapiens" as different from "Homo erectus, homo etc" that preceded him. Islam believe in existence on earth before Adam.

tintingz:

Moses, Jesus are from middle east, Jewish people, they are white/red in skin. If Jesus was a black man then Mary should be black woman.

# Moses, Jesus were black skinned not white/red. If you have evidence that stated otherwise, bring it out.

Some ahadith were presented here:

Why was there never a black prophet?!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJlLlL89NFU&itct=CBAQpDAYACITCJ-U8Z3v3dQCFUWeVQod5EYGSDIHcmVsYXRlZEi9gJSuwvWN4sYB&client=mv-google&gl=US&hl=en

tintingz:

You're mixing thing up. Obatala was the one sent by Olorun to create the world given him hen, corn with sand, Oduduwa was a king that ruled some years after in ile ife.

Middle east creation, Allah created the world in some few days, made Adam in an unknown place, told his angels and jins to bow to Adam and Satan refused, later on Satan tempted them bla bla bla, all these sounds like tales.

# Thanks for that correction on Obatala vs Oduduwa. Fact still remain the whole package was only tale. Scientifically, its a grand lie.

# I don't know the "Middle east creation" you are talking about. However, if it is Quranic submission, till now scientists have not beaten it. And as per "few days", Quran defines equivalent of a day with Allah is 1000s of years of ours. 60,000, 100,000, 900,000, Quran kept silent. Scientists have given us their theory of the creation of the universe. When you study it, you will appreciate Qur'an more.

tintingz:

Lol, All religion are base on tribal practice, influence. The wearing of veil was a middle eastern practice before Islam came, Arabic is an Arab language, stoning adulterers was a middle east practice, keeping beards was a practice before Islam came, Islamic names are Arabic, burying dead body in the same day was a practice in middle east, turban was worn before Islam came, Allah is an Arabic language etc these are Arab cultures.

# These are part of of irrelevances I talked about. Wait for their time or create threads for them then we will comment in sha Allah.

tintingz:

Where did Allah sent his prophet to Yorubas or Chinese?

# Qur'an says " there is no nation or civilisation or tribe but We have sent a Warner and guide to them"

# Hadith exposed that 124, 000 (?) prophets were sent. Only 24/25 were mentioned in the Qur'an. We believe all these prophets came to refine the manners of mankind and guide them to the right path. We however believe Muhammad to be the last of them with complete message (since man developed over time). In fact, there is Odù ifá about the coming of Jesus (jawesun) and Muhammad.

So, I am a firm believer that Yoruba, Chinese, India, etc had their own respective prophet sent to them. Studying Yoruba belief, you can still appreciate certain area it agreed with Islam.

tintingz:

There is something called heritage, Islamic practice does not harmonize with Yoruba culture. If these foreigners didn't force their religion on Africa we will still be practicing our traditional religion, so oga that freewill didn't work there.

# How does Islamic practice(s) affect our culture? Here never ever mix Islamic culture with Arabian culture as I can see how you missed the road.

* Turban, Jalabia were never Islamic culture but Arabian's. etc etc

# Why focusing on "Islamic culture" when there is culture exchange from different civilisation? Islam does not destroy people's culture except crazy ones among them like human rituals, abobaku etc.

# If "Muslim" or "Christian" forcefully colonised a particular place and changed their cultures and languages, that is not Islam but Muslims.

tintingz:

Your God command men to beat their wives, my God didn't, your God command adulterers to be stoned to death, my God didn't gave such rules.

# There is nothing like stoning to death in the Qur'an, (but your god of sango can strike a thief with thunderstorms or Ògun can bathe with human blood).

# Beat or not to beat wives is one hell of a controversial topic we have dealt with. Don't rewind here. Its irrelevant.

tintingz:

Muslims are appeasing Allah with rams and rituals in Kaaba or was the story not about Abraham sacrificing his son to Allah?, the Gods like Ogun, Osun, Olorun does not eat those foods as well. There are no difference.

# Give me a single verse of the Quran that festive killing of ram was to appease Allah. Just one verse? It is fair to treat me as I have present my religion.

# Killing of Ram after Hajj rites was never "in remembrance of Abraham wanting to kill his son for sacrifice but later used ram". That is from people's imagination.

# " god" Eating the sacrifice is not the point. Aim, purpose and objective is the key. I have already stated the two earlier.

tintingz:

Lol, aeroplane was invevted by men but Elijah story was about a mysterious chariot filled with fire came down from the sky to carry Elijah, how can a human sit on a chariot with fire?! Which kyn technology be that?

# How do you expect human being of 1000s of years ago to report "aeroplane or rocket or similar space ship"? If you expect accuracy in their report, then you must be expecting a camel to pass through the eye of a needle.

tintingz:

If ocean can be split into two with technology, all hail human intellect, but not the one that just mysteriously split into two in few minutes with nothing holding the two side, a sea that is deep?!

# Few minutes indeed

# Unfortunately, the report we all read was the " afterwards". What had Moses done before then? No clue. It took Noah years to complete a boat that will withstand heavy storm and tsunami. The report only says he built a boat.

AlBaqir:


# You are the one that is hellbent trying to match the two together.

# I have given you Islamic definition of Miracle and Magic and I have explain what both are in the eyes of their respective adherents.

# Kindly give us:

1. Islamic definition of Miracle,

2. Yoruba definition of Islamic miracle,

3. Yoruba definition of Idán

4. Does Yoruba believe Miracle to be Idán?

Those are set of questions before you.
Stop killing yourself with my definitions, give us yours

I'm following dictionary definition of miracle and magic.

Miracle : a surprising and welcome event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws and is therefore considered to be the work of a divine agency.

Magic : the power of apparently influencing the course of events by using mysterious or supernatural forces.

These are the definition from Google dictionary, I don't need to post any doctrine definition since I don't believe in mystical miracles nor magic, they are just tricks. Law of attraction.

# You love creating threads within thread (derailing from main topic). Its what I hate most. In fact you push me this far replying to irrelevant questions.

Save that. There time for discussion will come in sha Allah.

You said Allah doesn't do bad, so asked why did Allah create Satan, and also test us. Is that another topic?

# You mind giving us that "religious beliefs"? Islam uses Quran and hadith, I wish to remind you.

# Adam, according to dictionary is also black. Empiree, seem you posted something on this recently?!

The word Adam means earth relating to a tan/red skin according to both Hebrew and Islamic meaning.

From meaning it says tanned skin: http://qurangems.com/2012/10/31/adam-name-meanings-in-arabic/

Tanned skin people are like red Indians, Caucasians, Arabs etc.

Obviously, " religious" dictionary meaning can give us different ideas perhaps based on certain influences.




# That's exactly the reason I said, "Though scientific research and findings prove beyond this scientific Adam but the concept....".

The research is still open perhaps the sole " tree" will be discovered.


# However, Adam according to Quran was "complete (kamil)" in his creation. This is what most of Muslim scientists believed to be the first "Homo sapiens" as different from "Homo erectus, homo etc" that preceded him. Islam believe in existence on earth before Adam.

The Quran or bible Adam does not relate to Scientific Adam, the both book claim he is the first man, the scientific Adam was not the first man.

# Moses, Jesus were black skinned not white/red. If you have evidence that stated otherwise, bring it out.

Some ahadith were presented here:

Why was there never a black prophet?!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJlLlL89NFU&itct=CBAQpDAYACITCJ-U8Z3v3dQCFUWeVQod5EYGSDIHcmVsYXRlZEi9gJSuwvWN4sYB&client=mv-google&gl=US&hl=en

First of all Moses was not even historic, he's said to be a legend as no such event happened in Egypt or in history. So how can a fictional character has an accurate account? Well ancient Isrealis are tan/reddish in skin color since they are expose to sun in the desert just like the egytians. There is no accurate account how their skin color is, there might be blacks among them but there are no certain evidence for it.

# Thanks for that correction on Obatala vs Oduduwa. Fact still remain the whole package was only tale. Scientifically, its a grand lie.

What grand lie? You haven't prove the Story of Adam and Eve that was tempted by Satan and you are calling other people's belief a lie?.

# I don't know the "Middle east creation" you are talking about. However, if it is Quranic submission, till now scientists have not beaten it. And as per "few days", Quran defines equivalent of a day with Allah is 1000s of years of ours. 60,000, 100,000, 900,000, Quran kept silent. Scientists have given us their theory of the creation of the universe. When you study it, you will appreciate Qur'an more.

Science is more about the big bang theory, the Quran never made any story about existence of dinosaurs, just some claims about angels and jins that cannot be proven.

# These are part of of irrelevances I talked about. Wait for their time or create threads for them then we will comment in sha Allah.

Lol, OK.

# Qur'an says " there is no nation or civilisation or tribe but We have sent a Warner and guide to them"

# Hadith exposed that 124, 000 (?) prophets were sent. Only 24/25 were mentioned in the Qur'an. We believe all these prophets came to refine the manners of mankind and guide them to the right path. We however believe Muhammad to be the last of them with complete message (since man developed over time). In fact, there is Odù ifá about the coming of Jesus (jawesun) and Muhammad.

So, I am a firm believer that Yoruba, Chinese, India, etc had their own respective prophet sent to them. Studying Yoruba belief, you can still appreciate certain area it agreed with Islam.

Where are these prophets mentioned in the Quran, what are thier names? Name prophet sent to Chinese or vikings by Allah.The thing is You can't find it, just some Jewish and Arabs men stories.

If Allah sent prophet to the Yorubas there won't be story about Obatala creation in the first place.

# How does Islamic practice(s) affect our culture? Here never ever mix Islamic culture with Arabian culture as I can see how you missed the road.

* Turban, Jalabia were never Islamic culture but Arabian's. etc etc

# Why focusing on "Islamic culture" when there is culture exchange from different civilisation? Islam does not destroy people's culture except crazy ones among them like human rituals, abobaku etc.

# If "Muslim" or "Christian" forcefully colonised a particular place and changed their cultures and languages, that is not Islam but Muslims.

These foreign religions have made many people leave our traditional culture because it does not harmonize together, just few are still embraced.

And that was my point, turban, jalabia is an arabia culture but many Muslims sees it as Islamic.

Islam cannot be practiced itself, it is the people that carry out the commandments.

AlBaqir:




# There is nothing like stoning to death in the Qur'an, (but your god of sango can strike a thief with thunderstorms or Ògun can bathe with human blood).

But stoning to death is in hadith, Quran said flog them, why flogging adults that are having consensual thing.

Even tho I don't believe in sango, at least he is doing justice by himself not some sharia men carrying out the act for Allah and when he dies Allah will still throw the thief inside hell.

# Beat or not to beat wives is one hell of a controversial topic we have dealt with. Don't rewind here. Its irrelevant.

Lol

# Give me a single verse of the Quran that festive killing of ram was to appease Allah. Just one verse? It is fair to treat me as I have present my religion.

The appease started by Abraham sacrificing his son to Allah commanded by Allah which he almost did and Allah reward Abraham with good rewards for obeying and changed the sacrifice into ram, abeg what do we call that?

The traditional people also sacrifice to their gods in exchange of rewards.

# Killing of Ram after Hajj rites was never "in remembrance of Abraham wanting to kill his son for sacrifice but later used ram". That is from people's imagination.

Really? This is new to me. So why do Sheikhs gives sermons about Abraham story when it is sallah?

# " god" Eating the sacrifice is not the point. Aim, purpose and objective is the key. I have already stated the two earlier.

What is the aim of Allah exchanging the killing of Abraham son to a ram? Why cant he just said "Oh Abraham you obeyed your lord, go home and rest". No ram.

# How do you expect human being of 1000s of years ago to report "aeroplane or rocket or similar space ship"? If you expect accuracy in their report, then you must be expecting a camel to pass through the eye of a needle.

Are you saying Quran and bible are not accurate in their reports?

# Few minutes indeed

# Unfortunately, the report we all read was the " afterwards". What had Moses done before then? No clue. It took Noah years to complete a boat that will withstand heavy storm and tsunami. The report only says he built a boat.

It was when Pharaoh and his army were coming Moses split the sea in just few minutes or let's say hours. As for Noah we don't know the duration he used in building the ark, but at least logically he built it for long period of time since there is no miracle attached in building the ark.

It is now 100% safe to say tintingz has renounced Islam.

He doesn't need to communicate this verbally. Writing is on the wall.

This is the clarification I was hoping for before jumping to conclusions unlike others. So any attempt now to portray himself as Muslim still will be voided.

RealSleek:
What's all this epistles?
Simpler question ..does Islam supports use of juju/voodoo....all i need is yes o, no o ..and give some quranic verse to back it up

Pls not all this human reasonings/twisting you are bringing out.

oogun can be used for good and evil agreed ,but what's the source and the backing? Allah?
Cc AlBaqir

# I bet even you yourself did not know the weight of your own question.

# My immediate reply to your question, I believe is reasonable enough than what you accused of. Where did you see epistles? Perhaps you did not even read my reply to your question rather the never ending epistle debate of tingtingz and myself is what you are referring to. If you are not a lazy type, you can learn from it. Here, definition of voodoo/juju (Òogùn), Magic (Idán) and Islamic stance on them has been discussed.


# Surah Al-Baqara, Verse 102:

And they followed what the Shaitans chanted of sorcery in the reign of Sulaiman, and Sulaiman was not an unbeliever, but the Shaitans disbelieved, they taught men sorcery and that was sent down to the two angels at Babel, Harut and Marut, yet these two taught no man until they had said, "Surely we are only a trial, therefore do not be a disbeliever." Even then men learned from these two, magic by which they might cause a separation between a man and his wife; and they cannot hurt with it any one except with Allah's permission, and they learned what harmed them and did not profit them, and certainly they know that he who bought it should have no share of good in the hereafter and evil was the price for which they sold their souls; had they but known this.

Am afraid, that is the only ayah I know that directly talks about an aspect of Voodoo. Ahadith also talk about magic and fortunetelling. Nabi condemned it 100%. Yet, all those are just an aspect of voodoo.

Wa salam

Who is an Alfa?


I know of Muslims which majority of them seem to friends on voodoo. I also know of Islam that considers other gods beside Allah a pretty big deal. I can't remember coming across a verse of the Quran that encourages voodoo, so NO Islam frowns at voodoo and or any acts that celebrates other gods or God aside from Allah. It is strongly forbidden as it is major type of shirk (like one of the biggest sin) which is associating other gods with Allah.

These Alfas are merely exercising their freedom of religion. Who am I to stop them? No be their lives? Anyways, Alfa or no Alfa, there are many so called religion leaders of abrahimic religions who are engaged in voodoo. Some may choose to expressly condemn it while others may not. It is their lives not mine.

“Then do not set up rivals unto Allaah (in worship) while you know (that He Alone has the right to be worshipped)”

[al-Baqarah 2:22]

“And they set up rivals to Allaah, to mislead (men) from His path! Say: ‘Enjoy (your brief life)! But certainly, your destination is the (Hell) Fire!’

RealSleek:

In my experience an Alfa is not different from a babalawo . They hardly speak against speak against babalawos because they lack such moral grounds.
The question now is - is islam religion against voodoo or not?
I need a muslim to shed light on this
Jumah mubarak

Voodoo and juju are not really the same thing the same way Muslims here are trying to prove miracle and magic are not the same.

Wikipedia said :

Contrary to common belief, Vodun is not related to juju, despite the linguistic and spiritual similarities. Juju has acquired some karmic attributes in more recent times: good juju can stem from almost any good deed; bad juju can be spread just as easily. These ideas revolve around the luck and fortune portions of juju. The use of juju to describe an object usually involves small items worn or carried; these generally contain medicines produced by witch doctors.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juju

Voodoo is a religious rituals while juju is just a charm, it is only hypocrite Muslims will criticize voodoo.

tintingz:


Voodoo is a religious rituals while juju is just a charm, it is only hypocrite Muslims will criticize voodoo.

# It is very unfortunate you cannot give definition from the perspective of those that practice any of those things (Miracle, Magic, Voodoo, Juju) rather you resort to dictionary meaning and what you think, then hellbent on it.

# Luke I told you earlier, dictionary meaning for a "thing" might be many, and indeed different from what practitioner of that thing intend.

# Attach is another dictionary meaning of voodoo and juju.

# Both altogether in that meaning and practice is rejected by Islam. You are free to accept or practice them, Mr tingtingz

AlBaqir:


# It is very unfortunate you cannot give definition from the perspective of those that practice any of those things (Miracle, Magic, Voodoo, Juju) rather you resort to dictionary meaning and what you think, then hellbent on it.

# Luke I told you earlier, dictionary meaning for a "thing" might be many, and indeed different from what practitioner of that thing intend.

# Attach is another dictionary meaning of voodoo and juju.

# Both altogether in that meaning and practice is rejected by Islam. You are free to accept or practice them, Mr tingtingz

Islam also do something voodooish or juju whatever they both really means, reading Quran portion inside water, writing arabic text on slate with special ink, beads, ritual bath attributing it to a supernatural force.

And by the way I don't believe in miracle, magic, voodoo, juju, they are tricks used by some psychics, illusionist, tricksters.

It seems I need to do research on this voodoo, magic , miracle thing people do, I will have to do research by getting close to all these alawos, pastors, Alfas to know how they do these tricks that people claim they experience.

Quite alrght, if their dictionary menaings men something different BUT when people use those words, they would be referring to people who practiced traditional religions.

Why do you try so hard to be really annoying? Must you call Muslims who criticise voodoo and juju hypocrites because of a linguistic misunderstanding? Is your life story that bad? Hian!

tintingz:
Voodoo and juju are not really the same thing the same way Muslims here are trying to prove miracle and magic are not the same.

Wikipedia said :

Contrary to common belief, Vodun is not related to juju, despite the linguistic and spiritual similarities. Juju has acquired some karmic attributes in more recent times: good juju can stem from almost any good deed; bad juju can be spread just as easily. These ideas revolve around the luck and fortune portions of juju. The use of juju to describe an object usually involves small items worn or carried; these generally contain medicines produced by witch doctors.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juju

Voodoo is a religious rituals while juju is just a charm, it is only hypocrite Muslims will criticize voodoo.

Dont even know why this is an issue. We have in islam practices of medicines (not orthodox) or as in modern medicine. For instance, there is a comprehensive book which consists of prophetic medicines many of which, if you muslims put them into practice locally, they will resemble so called alawo. This is linguistic and practical appearance which resemble alawo, juju, voodoo. But in essence, they are different.


For instance, there is a hadith which talks about "black seed is a cure for all diseases except death". Taking the hadith literally would mean chewing black seed as it is. But a muslim needs to put into practice how to use black seed for various ailments. E:G, black seed oil may be used for bald, cough, premature ejaculation, but did the nabi(saw) explain this?. no. So alawo also use black seed and the process may look the same with muslims. Where the line is drawn is alawo may decide to spice things up by adding human blood, beer or any haram things that islam forbids etc. But muslims would refrain from that.

If unfaithful muslim adds beers etc to it, he is not less a muslim but a bad one. We dont call them kufar bcus of that unless he take steps further like killin human, mixing human blood with it and believe it has divine power to cause somethign to happen. This may be a red line.

So this isnt different from orthodox medicines and their processes. Get over it

tintingz:
It seems I need to do research on this voodoo, magic , miracle thing people do, I will have to do research by getting close to all these alawos, pastors, Alfas to know how they do these tricks that people claim they experience.

Very good. It is better to make your research before making your conclusion or even most of your assumptions.

What you are showcasing these days is synonymous to most atheists. They admit they don't know. Admit they've never had experience of supernatural occurrences yet have the gut to discard them as none existent, therefore they don't know and they don't want to know. That's not how things work. Do you research..do your fuckíng research

BTW, hope rain no enter your house?