Ubenedictus:


I also told you that I am sure your church will try and interpret it differently from how it was understood for 2000 years of Christianity by all ancient church. of course you guys fail to realise that the Bible was addressing churches that already had these sacrament and practices and was actually repeating what was already done.

you have divorced the scriptures from it natural settings and what you have are the opinions of men who lived 2000yrs after the event and have little knowledge of what they are talking about.


d
that is why every ancient church interpret that passage differently from your 20th century fellowship....
to be continued.

"And he stooping down, and looking in, saw the linen clothes lying; yet went he not in." (John 20:5).... It is depth that makes the difference not who races first to the source.

Jesus Christ gave his charge to his followers after his death and resurrection. He breathed the Holy spirit into them and gave them charge to forgive sin ... This he needed not explain how to do it because he already had demonstrated it severally. ...Confession in a box structure is not the greater works he told them they would do .... It is leading men and women to Christ ... He , Jesus Christ , never led anybody to Christ.

Every other issue of life he showed us how to handle them spiritually.

Themandator:



Tribal association like Igbo Catholic community...I am from Anambra state. Isoko Catholic community ....We used to have meetings under those subheads


We don't cover it on a normal Sunday service.... Sorry if you perceive me to have taken it personal...I have to reply almost same question from different handles ..Make me weary and just want to shoe off the next.


I have not seen this repetitin own because when I open my mention I have new updates ... There was one that ask me about what I meant by in-depth walk and I have been looking for it to answer and can't find it


It is not deliberate that I have avoided making a rejoinder ...We are learning from one another ... Every opportunity I must maximize.

those groups are made by the Christians there to aid information sharing and know each other especially in big parishes, they have little standing in the church, and are a largely eastern phenomenon and don't exist in my parish.


2. seem my submission about Bible reading was on point.

3. OK

Themandator:



The verse of the scripture you quoted doesn't support what you are explaining Or defending: "Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that you may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much." (Jam 5:16)

That scripture was addressing the rich and their ways and attitude... Rather than complain against one another he admonished they pray and confess their faults to one another ....One another is used when when you have more than two people involved ..... He was addressing a congregation. It was like reconciling a community and bringing back brotherhood ... James wasn't asking them to go to a priest or the apostles.


Here is the James 5 from 9 to 16

"Do not complain against one another, my friends, so that God will not judge you. The Judge is near, ready to appear. My friends, remember the prophets who spoke in the name of the Lord. Take them as examples of patient endurance under suffering. We call them happy because they endured. You have heard of Job's patience, and you know how the Lord provided for him in the end. For the Lord is full of mercy and compassion. Above all, my friends, do not use an oath when you make a promise. Do not swear by heaven or by earth or by anything else. Say only "Yes" when you mean yes, and "No" when you mean no, and then you will not come under God's judgment. Are any among you in trouble? They should pray. Are any among you happy? They should sing praises. Are any among you sick? They should send for the church elders, who will pray for them and rub olive oil on them in the name of the Lord. This prayer made in faith will heal the sick; the Lord will restore them to health, and the sins they have committed will be forgiven. So then, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, so that you will be healed. The prayer of a good person has a powerful effect." (Jam 5:9-16)

here it seem you are the one who ignored the immediate context. he actually ended the issue of the rich,he then moved on to judgements, before finally he says if you are happy sing praise but if any is sick call the presbyter let him be anointed and prayer over if he is in sin he will be forgiven, and for the avoidance of doubt as to how these prayer for forgiveness happens it says "THEREFORE confess your sins one to another". it is a pity it isn't clear to you since you have been taught in a 20th century church that has no links to historic Christianity but any 1st or 2nd or 3rd century Christian who the letter was addressed to will immediately understand it since confession of that nature is practiced in their churches, with their presbyter and bishop.

John 20:23 is not what you have concluded it to be. Jesus Christ didn't come to cause confusion ... What he meant when he made that state he already demonstrated so your kind don't run off with the wrong idea...


Here are examples of the sins you forgive are forgiven in heaven by the Lord Jesus Christ

1. "Is it easier to say, 'Your sins are forgiven,' or to say, 'Get up and walk'? I will prove to you, then, that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins." So he said to the paralyzed man, "Get up, pick up your bed, and go home!" The man got up and went home." (Mat 9:5-7)


2. "Because of the crowd, however, they could find no way to take him in. So they carried him up on the roof, made an opening in the tiles, and let him down on his bed into the middle of the group in front of Jesus. When Jesus saw how much faith they had, he said to the man, "Your sins are forgiven, my friend." The teachers of the Law and the Pharisees began to say to themselves, "Who is this man who speaks such blasphemy! God is the only one who can forgive sins!" Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them, "Why do you think such things? Is it easier to say, 'Your sins are forgiven you,' or to say, 'Get up and walk'?" (Luk 5:19-23)



The authority Jesu gave them in John 20:23 was sealed and hen he said in Mark 16:17: these signs shall follow them that believe , in my name they shall....... This was exactly what Jesus meant when he said the sins you forgive ... He was addressing deliverance from afflictions or infirmities caused by disobedience to God .... Everytime he forgave sins you could see tangible evidence of deliverance from punishment

He wasn't telling them to start hearing people sins or faults and giving out prayer like drug from pharmacy


The Bible is written for instructions and guide ... It is a book of examples ... Do it the exact way if is in the Bible to get the result they got.... Any other way is man made and and therefore , religion which is man's personal idea of how to please God.

All the so called benefits of confession to a priest you listed is neither here nor there... You don't break the hold of sin through strategy but by walk with the Joly spirit.

Agqin, I repeat , the one I have offended is the one to hear my apologies and then forgive me ... We all have equal fellowship with God as our Father
Example of sicknes, as listed in Naira land today : https://www.nairaland.com/4090683/benue-woman-marries-18-husbands


Thank you

it is true that Jesus forgave sin especially when he healed, and yes I agree that His apostles have the power to forgive sin that cause illnesses but John 20 doesn't say, If you are healing people whatever sins you forgive are forgiven.

there is no limitation to that authority as you seem to artificially input, Jesus says whatsoever sin you forgive are forgiven... no but no "only during healing, that is your own idea and it is a modern day heresy are no early Christian interpreted the passage with such limits.

moreso in 2cor 2:10 we see Paul making use of his authority to forgive with the authority and power of Jesus and it isn't about healing of physical illness.

New Living Translation
When you forgive this man, I forgive him,
too. And when I forgive whatever needs to
be forgiven, I do so with Christ's authority
for your benefit,


Douay-Rheims Bible
And to whom you have pardoned any thing, I
also. For, what I have pardoned, if I have
pardoned any thing, for your sakes have I
done it in the person of Christ.

If you read the scripture you are citing carefully, you will realised that sins are forgiven upon application of the anointing oil.

Other translations of the Bible uses faults .... Because the sins have already been taken care of by the prayers of the elders and the anointing oil...... Confess your faults ..ONE TO ANOTHER ...This is simple English that applies when you have more than two people involved. .... James , if he meant what you are implying , could have asked them to confess their sins or faults to him since he IS an apostle but he told them one to another .....THE ONE I HAVE OFFENDED IS THE WILL ENTITLED TO MY CONFESSION.


Please Note that it wasn't all the time that Jesus healed that he forgave sins ... Not all infirmities are as a result of sin, some are tricks of the enemies ....."And he was teaching in one of the synagogues on the sabbath. And, behold, there was a woman which had a spirit of infirmity eighteen years, and was bowed together, and could in no wise lift up herself. And when Jesus saw her, he called her to him, and said unto her, Woman, thou art loosed from thine infirmity. And he laid his hands on her: and immediately she was made straight, and glorified God." (Luk 13:10-13)............When sin was the root of the issue he forgave sins.


If I wrong my wife , it would be foolish to run to a priest to confess. Nothing from the priest will bring respite ... The person I have offended is the one in a position to forgive me.

Forgiveness brings deliverance otherwise it is not worth it ...Every forgiveness brings relieve to the one forgiven ....Every forgiveness brings deliverance including state pardon .. that Jesus demonstrated and ask them and us to continue in that tradition



Thee is no scripture anywhere to back up what you do as confession in the Catholic Church.. it is mans personal idea and it is not scriptural. What you brought up in 2 Cor 2:10 still doesn't speak to your idea of forgiveness....Whomever forgive I also forgive ............."To whom ye forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ;" (2Cor 2:10)....... Until I forgive you for the wrong against me , it stays ............ If I have offended you you ought to know without my telling you

Ubenedictus:
here it seem you are the one who ignored the immediate context. he actually ended the issue of the rich,he then moved on to judgements, before finally he says if you are happy sing praise but if any is sick call the presbyter let him be anointed and prayer over if he is in sin he will be forgiven, and for the avoidance of doubt as to how these prayer for forgiveness happens it says "THEREFORE confess your sins one to another". it is a pity it isn't clear to you since you have been taught in a 20th century church that has no links to historic Christianity but any 1st or 2nd or 3rd century Christian who the letter was addressed to will immediately understand it since confession of that nature is practiced in their churches, with their presbyter and bishop.

it is true that Jesus forgave sin especially when he healed, and yes I agree that His apostles have the power to forgive sin that cause illnesses but John 20 doesn't say, If you are healing people whatever sins you forgive are forgiven.

there is no limitation to that authority as you seem to artificially input, Jesus says whatsoever sin you forgive are forgiven... no but no "only during healing, that is your own idea and it is a modern day heresy are no early Christian interpreted the passage with such limits.

moreso in 2cor 2:10 we see Paul making use of his authority to forgive with the authority and power of Jesus and it isn't about healing of physical illness.

New Living Translation
When you forgive this man, I forgive him,
too. And when I forgive whatever needs to
be forgiven, I do so with Christ's authority
for your benefit,


Douay-Rheims Bible
And to whom you have pardoned any thing, I
also. For, what I have pardoned, if I have
pardoned any thing, for your sakes have I
done it in the person of Christ.

nwokoyepraise:

Note:
1.Jesus said that He and the Father are one.
2. Matt. 28 vs 16-17 "Now the eleven disciples went on to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had appointed them. And, seeing him, they worshipped him, but certain ones doubted."
Why did Jesus not rebuke His disciples when they worshipped him?
3. Why did Jesus tell Satan, you shall not pit the Lord your God to. test.

ok let me answer you
1. You said jesus said he and the father are 1 but i want you to reconcile that verse with this..... Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I. If truly jesus and his father were to be one (which i understand you to be saying they are one in thrinity) and if jesus were to say the father is greater than him that automatically relegates the facts that he is among the thrinity
2. You quoted mathew that some deciples worshiped jesus....you are reading from the Gospel "ACCORDING" to mathew you can not even tell me who wrote mattew.. And again was it jesus that told them to worship him?...if jesus really say so and people worship him and why did the bible say? Exodus 34:14 --for you shall not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God. And again why did jesus say in Luke 4:8 that "It is written: 'Worship the Lord your God and serve him ONLY.'" if jesus were to say this words himself that you should worship ONLY God and he claim earlier that the father is greater than him...i will like you to reconcile the two verses.
3. You shall not put your lord your God to test. Hmmmmmm satan tempted jesus...if jesus were to be God satan wont have have the Gut to carry jesus to the top mountain and promises to the him all the kingdom of the world and the Glory if he worshiped him...jesus fail the first test of being God by following satan to the highest mountain...secoundly if jesus were to be God how come satan promise him the kingdom of the world and its Glory if he bows for him? Is it not the same jesus prophesised that the Kingdom of the world would be on his shoulder and he will be a mighty God how can satan promise him the kingdom of this world if he already have it and he is God then lastly james 1:13 says.. When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt..anyone. Jesus was tempted and he can never be God.
Bro i prayer God open your eyes to the truth..."you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free" shalom!

irynterri:
we don't

ok. So who do you worship?

WHO IS CHRIST JESUS IN YOUR OWN UNDERSTAND...IS JESUS A CREATED BEING. PLS BACK IT UP WITH THE word OF GOD.

Lihyunpark:

ok. So who do you worship?

God the Father,the Son and the Holy Spirit,it is against the Catholic faith to worship any other thing aside from the above listed

irynterri:
God the Father,the Son and the Holy Spirit,it is against the Catholic faith to worship any other thing aside from the above listed

so u worship 3gods?

Lihyunpark:


so u worship 3gods?

nope, 1 God that manifests in 3ways

Lihyunpark:


ok let me answer you
1. You said jesus said he and the father are 1 but i want you to reconcile that verse with this..... Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I. If truly jesus and his father were to be one (which i understand you to be saying they are one in thrinity) and if jesus were to say the father is greater than him that automatically relegates the facts that he is among the thrinity
2. You quoted mathew that some deciples worshiped jesus....you are reading from the Gospel "ACCORDING" to mathew you can not even tell me who wrote mattew.. And again was it jesus that told them to worship him?...if jesus really say so and people worship him and why did the bible say? Exodus 34:14 --for you shall not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God. And again why did jesus say in Luke 4:8 that "It is written: 'Worship the Lord your God and serve him ONLY.'" if jesus were to say this words himself that you should worship ONLY God and he claim earlier that the father is greater than him...i will like you to reconcile the two verses.
3. You shall not put your lord your God to test. Hmmmmmm satan tempted jesus...if jesus were to be God satan wont have have the Gut to carry jesus to the top mountain and promises to the him all the kingdom of the world and the Glory if he worshiped him...jesus fail the first test of being God by following satan to the highest mountain...secoundly if jesus were to be God how come satan promise him the kingdom of the world and its Glory if he bows for him? Is it not the same jesus prophesised that the Kingdom of the world would be on his shoulder and he will be a mighty God how can satan promise him the kingdom of this world if he already have it and he is God then lastly james 1:13 says.. When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt..anyone. Jesus was tempted and he can never be God.
Bro i prayer God open your eyes to the truth..."you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free" shalom!

nice observations you quoted, but in all this you forgot to note that Jesus came as a man in all forms except in sin, he could feel pain, he had emotions(he wept when Lazarus died),he can be tempted, the sacrifice he made was temporarily leaving his God status to become man in all ways but sin, well, it is no news that the kingdoms of this earth belongs to the devil, ritual killings alone to get power and other happenings around you should tell you who really owns this earth, the Kingdom of Christ is that which is yet to come. Jesus while on earth never boasted of been equal to God (because in boasting he commits a sin),please don't expect Jesus in his human form to tell anyone to worship him, lots of instances were cited where people worshipped him even John 20:28 attests to Thomas the Apostle calling Jesus,My Lord and my God 28 Thomas answered, and said to him: My Lord, and my God. If he was not God he would have rebuked them as done by the prophets and angels because worship is revered only for God, he lets them do it because he knows it is only someone filled with the Holy Spirit that will recognize and worship his divinity despite the fact he looked human, maybe their junior in age, no nobility and from a poor background,a further look at John 1:1-18 will educate you on the mystery of Jesus been God.Just read carefully, absorbing patiently. Shalom. 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him: and without him was made nothing that was made.
4 In him was life, and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 This man came for a witness, to give testimony of the light, that all men might believe through him.
8 He was not the light, but was to give testimony of the light.
9 That was the true light, which enlighteneth every man that cometh into this world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, he gave them power to be made the sons of God, to them that believe in his name.
13 Who are born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we saw his glory, the glory as it were of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
15 John beareth witness of him, and crieth out, saying: This was he of whom I spoke: He that shall come after me, is preferred before me: because he was before me.
16 And of his fulness we all have received, and grace for grace.
17 For the law was given by Moses; grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
18 No man hath seen God at any time: the only begotten Son who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Themandator:
If you read the scripture you are citing carefully, you will realised that sins are forgiven upon application of the anointing oil.

No! the Bible doesn't say that it says " And the prayer offered
in faith will make the sick person well; the
Lord will raise them up. If they have sinned,
they will be forgiven." it is the prayer of the presbyter that enable forgiveness of sins.

Other translations of the Bible uses faults .... Because the sins have already been taken care of by the prayers of the elders and the anointing oil...... Confess your faults ..ONE TO ANOTHER ...This is simple English that applies when you have more than two people involved. .... James , if he meant what you are implying , could have asked them to confess their sins or faults to him since he IS an apostle but he told them one to another .....THE ONE I HAVE OFFENDED IS THE WILL ENTITLED TO MY CONFESSION.

the Greek word in that passage is hamartia it means sin not fault or offense to a person. Jesus gave his apostles power to forgive sins I.e offenses against God and James tells us how the priest is to know such sins I.e confession and Paul records and example of himself exercising that power.


it isn't about talking to someone you offended it is about forgiving sins.

Please Note that it wasn't all the time that Jesus healed that he forgave sins ... Not all infirmities are as a result of sin, some are tricks of the enemies ....."And he was teaching in one of the synagogues on the sabbath. And, behold, there was a woman which had a spirit of infirmity eighteen years, and was bowed together, and could in no wise lift up herself. And when Jesus saw her, he called her to him, and said unto her, Woman, thou art loosed from thine infirmity. And he laid his hands on her: and immediately she was made straight, and glorified God." (Luk 13:10-13)............When sin was the root of the issue he forgave sins.


If I wrong my wife , it would be foolish to run to a priest to confess. Nothing from the priest will bring respite ... The person I have offended is the one in a position to forgive me.

Forgiveness brings deliverance otherwise it is not worth it ...Every forgiveness brings relieve to the one forgiven ....Every forgiveness brings deliverance including state pardon .. that Jesus demonstrated and ask them and us to continue in that tradition

we are not talking about offenses against your wife, we are talking about sin, the Greek term is hermatia

Thee is no scripture anywhere to back up what you do as confession in the Catholic Church.. it is mans personal idea and it is not scriptural. What you brought up in 2 Cor 2:10 still doesn't speak to your idea of forgiveness....Whomever forgive I also forgive ............."To whom ye forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ;" (2Cor 2:10)....... Until I forgive you for the wrong against me , it stays ............ If I have offended you you ought to know without my telling you

this only show you are ignorant of the scripture, a man committed incest in 1 cor Paul said the punishment is excommunication but in 2 cor he said the guy is forgiven because once he forgives a sin it is forgiven with Christ's authority.


that is how it has been understood and practiced in the church.


N.B. Pope innocent made a church law that says every Catholic should go to confession at least once a year.he didn't establish confession, confession has been practiced since the 1st century. make research so as not to spread misinformation.

Ubenedictus:
No! the Bible doesn't say that it says " And the prayer offered
in faith will make the sick person well; the
Lord will raise them up. If they have sinned,
they will be forgiven." it is the prayer of the presbyter that enable forgiveness of sins.

the Greek word in that passage is hamartia it means sin not fault or offense to a person. Jesus gave his apostles power to forgive sins I.e offenses against God and James tells us how the priest is to know such sins I.e confession and Paul records and example of himself exercising that power.


it isn't about talking to someone you offended it is about forgiving sins.

we are not talking about offenses against your wife, we are talking about sin, the Greek term is hermatia



this only show you are ignorant of the scripture, a man committed incest in 1 cor Paul said the punishment is excommunication but in 2 cor he said the guy is forgiven because once he forgives a sin it is forgiven with Christ's authority.


that is how it has been understood and practiced in the church.


N.B. Pope innocent made a church law that says every Catholic should go to confession at least once a year.he didn't establish confession, confession has been practiced since the 1st century. make research so as not to spread misinformation.

What exactly are you still arguing after seeing it in the Bible that the prayer of the elders upon application of the anointing oil shall cause any sin ( Hermatia) he has sinned to be forgiven..... The sin is already taken care by the prayer of the elders. He can't be forgiven of his or her sin by the Lord through the prayer of faith of the elders and turn around to ask for another forgiveness f same from you.

"Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
........................ "sins" (hamartia) are forgiven when the Lord saves and raises up the sick one who has been anointed and prayed over by the elders.


Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much." (Jam 5:14-16)


The Greek word used in the above is not Hermatia ..... Sins can't be forgiven twice ........The Greek word in this verse is paraptoma. Strong's Exhaustive Concordance defines it as, "a side-slip...i.e. (unintentional) error or (wilful) transgression:-fall, fault, offence, trespass." W. E. Vine renders paraptoma as "trespass," "a blunder," "to fall away

And this paraptoma , from the scripture... James 5:16 ...Is confessed one to another ...nOt one to the elders .. not one to the presbyter but to one another ........ James didn't exhort them to go to the elders or even to the apostles but only another..The one I have offended is the one to hear my apologies.


Bringing Paul's statement in the book of Corinthians proves you have little understanding of what your focus is on this subject matter .... Did the man enter a box to confess his sin .... Did he first confess his sinin to them.


How you insist on something that Jesus , the master, the teacher never practiced is beyond me .....Did Jesus gave sins ...yes ...Was it recorded , yes ...How did he so it?

When he handed this authority, he was already heaven bound... This was after his death and resurrection..... The things they saw him do would be their natural guide in their ministry


Pope Innocent 111 started the practice of confession in 1215 ..... Read Cardinal Newman on the pagan origin of your practices .... He wrote his book in 1824.He gave his book to the church to edit but they could find any issue with his finding and told him they can't edit it.

my earlier response was removed by the antispam boot, so I'm trying to rewrite

Themandator:


What exactly are you still arguing after seeing it in the Bible that the prayer of the elders upon application of the anointing oil shall cause any sin ( Hermatia) he has sinned to be forgiven..... The sin is already taken care by the prayer of the elders. He can't be forgiven of his or her sin by the Lord through the prayer of faith of the elders and turn around to ask for another forgiveness f same from you.

"Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
........................ "sins" (hamartia) are forgiven when the Lord saves and raises up the sick one who has been anointed and prayed over by the elders.

so you finally agree that through the ministry of the presbyter sins are forgiven?

the translation you are using has translated that passage incompletely the original Greek says ἐξομολογεῖσθε o v ἀλλήλοις τὰς ἁμαρτίας

which literally says
confess therefore/by extension to one another the sins...
it is translated as
therefore confess your sin to one another...

the Greek worked o v is translated as therefore or So or by extension and that is missing from the Bible translation you are using... that is why you seem ignorant of the fact that the injunction to confess your sin is actually a continuation and extension of the verse that says call the presbyter and if there is sin he will be forgiven.
The term therefore is to inform us on how the presbyter is to be made aware of the sins for which he is to pray about... it is through confession.

Themandator:

.


Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much." (Jam 5:14-16)


The Greek word used in the above is not Hermatia ..... Sins can't be forgiven twice ........The Greek word in this verse is paraptoma. Strong's Exhaustive Concordance defines it as, "a side-slip...i.e. (unintentional) error or (wilful) transgression:-fall, fault, offence, trespass." W. E. Vine renders paraptoma as "trespass," "a blunder," "to fall away

And this paraptoma , from the scripture... James 5:16 ...Is confessed one to another ...nOt one to the elders .. not one to the presbyter but to one another ........ James didn't exhort them to go to the elders or even to the apostles but only another..The one I have offended is the one to hear my apologies.

you are mistaken the Greek word used there is ἁμαρτίας I.e hermatia not paraptoma as you claim. it is hermatia and as I earlier explained the injunction to confess is itself but an extension of the call the presbyter passage.


let me hope the anti spam boot doesn't take this down.

ENDTIMEgist:


Just exactly what I do, it is really great learning from them.
I also love reading Awake! And Watchtower Magazine.

Do you also think the way they think that Jesus is not God?

Themandator:


Bringing Paul's statement in the book of Corinthians proves you have little understanding of what your focus is on this subject matter .... Did the man enter a box to confess his sin .... Did he first confess his sinin to them.

actually the Corinthian case is very much on point... it clearly shows an apostle declaring a sin forgiven with the authority of Christ and it has nothing to do with illness. it clearly shows that sins aren't only declared forgiven only during healings as you claimed. here an apostle declare a sin forgiven without reference to an ailment.

again you seem ignorant of the fact that confession isn't limited to a box, in fact it can happen anywhere and in ancient times it was done right before the assembly in some Christian churches, those communities only stopped public confession when some people started to use it for blackmail purpose.

How you insist on something that Jesus , the master, the teacher never practiced is beyond me .....Did Jesus gave sins ...yes ...Was it recorded , yes ...How did he so it?

When he handed this authority, he was already heaven bound... This was after his death and resurrection..... The things they saw him do would be their natural guide in their ministry

lol did Jesus read from a new testament or solemnise Sunday... did he teach in gentile country? the apostles and disciples wrote a new testament, worshipped on Sundays, and taught in gentile lands, they had the holy spirit who guided them in organising the Church. even Paul who didn't see the Lord while on earth received by revelation. besides the Gospels didn't claim to record every time Jesus forgave sin for you to claim Paul made a mistake when he declared forgiveness even without ailment

Themandator:




Pope Innocent 111 started the practice of confession in 1215 ..... Read Cardinal Newman on the pagan origin of your practices .... He wrote his book in 1824.He gave his book to the church to edit but they could find any issue with his finding and told him they can't edit it.

here I challenge you to tell us the book in which John Henry Newman made such claim and provide the quote in its context.

I have read not more than 2 books written by card. Newman, he was an Anglican priest who converted to Catholicism and is pretty intelligent, I have a feeling you are misquoting him.

should it be different then it would be that he was only mistaken since the practice of confession has been in the Church from the beginning, note the following documents

The Didache – The Earliest Christian Catechism
(pre-dating some of the canonical writings of the
New Testament)
“Confess your sins in church, and do not go up to
your prayer with an evil conscience. This is the
way of life. . . . On the Lord’s Day gather
together, break bread, and give thanks, after
confessing your transgressions so that your
sacrifice may be pure”
(Didache 4:14, 14:1 [A.D. 70]).
The Letter of Barnabas
“You shall judge righteously. You shall not make
a schism, but you shall pacify those that contend
by bringing them together. You shall confess
your sins. You shall not go to prayer with an evil
conscience. This is the way of light”
(Letter of Barnabas 19 [A.D. 74]).
St. Ignatius of Antioch
“For as many as are of God and of Jesus Christ
are also with the bishop. And as many as shall,
in the exercise of penance, return into the unity
of the Church, these, too, shall belong to God,
that they may live according to Jesus Christ”
(Letter to the Philadelphians 3 [A.D. 106]).
“For where there is division and wrath, God does
not dwell. To all them that repent, the Lord
grants forgiveness, if they turn in penitence to
the unity of God, and to communion with the
bishop”
(ibid., .
St. Irenaeus of Lyons
“[The Gnostic disciples of Marcus] have deluded
many women. . . . Their consciences have been
branded as with a hot iron. Some of these
women make a public confession [of their
previous heresy/sins], but others are ashamed to
do this, and in silence, as if withdrawing from
themselves the hope of the life of God, they
either apostatize entirely or hesitate between the
two courses”
(Against Heresies 1:22 [A.D. 189]).
Tertullian of Carthage
“[Regarding confession, some] flee from this
work as being an exposure of themselves, or
they put it off from day to day. I presume they
are more mindful of modesty than of salvation,
like those who contract a disease in the more
shameful parts of the body and shun making
themselves known to the physicians; and thus
they perish along with their own bashfulness”
(Repentance 10:1 [A.D. 203]).
St. Hippolytus of Rome
“[The bishop conducting the ordination of the
new bishop shall pray:] God and Father of our
Lord Jesus Christ. . . . Pour forth now that power
which comes from you, from your royal Spirit,
which you gave to your beloved Son, Jesus
Christ, and which he bestowed upon his holy
apostles . . . and grant this your servant, whom
you have chosen for the episcopate, [the power]
to feed your holy flock and to serve without
blame as your high priest, ministering night and
day to propitiate unceasingly before your face
and to offer to you the gifts of your holy Church,
and by the Spirit of the high priesthood to have
the authority to forgive sins, in accord with your
command”
(Apostolic Tradition 3 [A.D. 215]).
Origen of Alexandria
“[A final method of forgiveness], albeit hard and
laborious [is] the remission of sins through
penance, when the sinner . . . does not shrink
from declaring his sin to a priest of the Lord and
from seeking medicine, after the manner of him
who say, ‘I said, “To the Lord I will accuse
myself of my iniquity”’”
(Homilies on Leviticus 2:4 [A.D. 248]).
St. Cyprian of Carthage
“The apostle [Paul] likewise bears witness and
says: ‘ . . . Whoever eats the bread or drinks the
cup of the Lord unworthily will be guilty of the
body and blood of the Lord’ [1 Cor. 11:27]. But
[the impenitent] spurn and despise all these
warnings; before their sins are expiated, before
they have made a confession of their crime,
before their conscience has been purged in the
ceremony and at the hand of the priest . . . they
do violence to [the Lord’s] body and blood, and
with their hands and mouth they sin against the
Lord more than when they denied him”
(The Lapsed 15:1–3 (A.D. 251]).
“Of how much greater faith and salutary fear are
they who . . . confess their sins to the priests of
God in a straightforward manner and in sorrow,
making an open declaration of conscience. . . . I
beseech you, brethren, let everyone who has
sinned confess his sin while he is still in this
world, while his confession is still admissible,
while the satisfaction and remission made
through the priests are still pleasing before the
Lord”
(ibid., 28).
“[S]inners may do penance for a set time, and
according to the rules of discipline come to
public confession, and by imposition of the hand
of the bishop and clergy receive the right of
Communion. [But now some] with their time [of
penance] still unfulfilled . . . they are admitted to
Communion, and their name is presented; and
while the penitence is not yet performed,
confession is not yet made, the hands of the
bishop and clergy are not yet laid upon them, the
Eucharist is given to them; although it is written,
‘Whosoever shall eat the bread and drink the cup
of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body
and blood of the Lord’ [1 Cor. 11:27]“
(Letters 9:2 [A.D. 253]).
“And do not think, dearest brother, that either the
courage of the brethren will be lessened, or that
martyrdoms will fail for this cause, that penance
is relaxed to the lapsed, and that the hope of
peace [i.e., absolution] is offered to the penitent.
. . . For to adulterers even a time of repentance
is granted by us, and peace is given”
(ibid., 51[55]:20).
“But I wonder that some are so obstinate as to
think that repentance is not to be granted to the
lapsed, or to suppose that pardon is to be denied
to the penitent, when it is written, ‘Remember
whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the
first works’ [Rev. 2:5], which certainly is said to
him who evidently has fallen, and whom the Lord
exhorts to rise up again by his deeds [of
penance], because it is written, ‘Alms deliver
from death’ [Tob. 12:9]“
(ibid., 51[55]:22).
St. Aphraahat the Persian
“You [priests], then, who are disciples of our
illustrious physician [Christ], you ought not deny
a curative to those in need of healing. And if
anyone uncovers his wound before you, give him
the remedy of repentance. And he that is
ashamed to make known his weakness,
encourage him so that he will not hide it from
you. And when he has revealed it to you, do not
make it public, lest because of it the innocent
might be reckoned as guilty by our enemies and
by those who hate us”
(Treatises 7:3 [A.D. 340]).
St. Basil the Great
“It is necessary to confess our sins to those to
whom the dispensation of God’s mysteries is
entrusted. Those doing penance of old are found
to have done it before the saints. It is written in
the Gospel that they confessed their sins to
John the Baptist [Matt. 3:6], but in Acts [19:18]
they confessed to the apostles”
(Rules Briefly Treated 288 [A.D. 374]).
St. John Chrysostom
“Priests have received a power which God has
given neither to angels nor to archangels. It was
said to them: ‘Whatsoever you shall bind on
earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatsoever
you shall loose, shall be loosed.’ Temporal rulers
have indeed the power of binding; but they can
only bind the body. Priests, in contrast, can bind
with a bond which pertains to the soul itself and
transcends the very heavens. Did [God] not give
them all the powers of heaven? ‘Whose sins you
shall forgive,’ he says, ‘they are forgiven them;
whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.’
What greater power is there than this? The
Father has given all judgment to the Son. And
now I see the Son placing all this power in the
hands of men [Matt. 10:40; John 20:21–23].
They are raised to this dignity as if they were
already gathered up to heaven”
(The Priesthood 3:5 [A.D. 387]).
St. Ambrose of Milan
“For those to whom [the right of binding and
loosing] has been given, it is plain that either
both are allowed, or it is clear that neither is
allowed. Both are allowed to the Church, neither
is allowed to heresy. For this right has been
granted to priests only”
(Penance 1:1 [A.D. 388]).
St. Jerome of Stridonium
“If the serpent, the devil, bites someone secretly,
he infects that person with the venom of sin.
And if the one who has been bitten keeps silence
and does not do penance, and does not want to
confess his wound . . . then his brother and his
master, who have the word [of absolution] that
will cure him, cannot very well assist him”
(Commentary on Ecclesiastes 10:11 [A.D. 388]).
St. Augustine of Hippo
“When you shall have been baptized, keep to a
good life in the commandments of God so that
you may preserve your baptism to the very end. I
do not tell you that you will live here without sin,
but they are venial sins which this life is never
without. Baptism was instituted for all sins. For
light sins, without which we cannot live, prayer
was instituted. . . . But do not commit those sins
on account of which you would have to be
separated from the body of Christ. Perish the
thought! For those whom you see doing penance
have committed crimes, either adultery or some
other enormities. That is why they are doing
penance. If their sins were light, daily prayer
would suffice to blot them out. . . . In the
Church, therefore, there are three ways in which
sins are forgiven: in baptisms, in prayer, and in
the greater humility of penance”
(Sermon to Catechumens on the Creed 7:15,
8:16 [A.D. 395]).



this clearly show Christian practicing confession from the 1st century. so you're incorrect.

I'm still waiting for the quote from Newman.

Ubenedictus:
my earlier response was removed by the antispam boot, so I'm trying to rewrite so you finally agree that through the ministry of the presbyter sins are forgiven?

I don't intend to continue this see-saw discussion with you. .... I never argued whether sins are forgiven by the prayers of the presbyter.... I stated that at the point if Anointing oil, sins have been taken care of and since it has been forgiven at that point without confession of any kind imputed that you can return to re forgive same sin again in your brand of confession



The scripture says use Anointing oil in him and then pray and if he has committed any sin it shall be forgiven ...is it has been forgiven what sin do you hope tomorrow again in confessional box


The scripture went down to to say categorically, confess your sin one to another ...never to the elders but one to another ...... If this sentence was part of your comprehension passage and you are already what it means as used in the past we , would you give it the meaning you are ascribing to it: confession your sin to the presbyter.


This is common grammar ... It doesn't invite all the confusion and misleading interpretation you have tried to associate with it but if you are okay with that your view point , carry gon abeg

Haha Rev. Fr.
Carry go


Newman wrote that book before becoming a Catholic and actuaugaveit to the church to edit to suit their doctrines and practices but they could not but rather told him that he wrote it as a non Catholic.


That book traced the history of the pagan root of most of your practices.... Not just confession including Christmas and even the changing of the worship days to Sundays but as far you be father carry go ...make I keep my sword ...you win.... Confession na the real thing

Ubenedictus:


here I challenge you to tell us the book in which John Henry Newman made such claim and provide the quote in its context.

I have read not more than 2 books written by card. Newman, he was an Anglican priest who converted to Catholicism and is pretty intelligent, I have a feeling you are misquoting him.

should it be different then it would be that he was only mistaken since the practice of confession has been in the Church from the beginning, note the following documents

The Didache – The Earliest Christian Catechism
(pre-dating some of the canonical writings of the
New Testament)
“Confess your sins in church, and do not go up to
your prayer with an evil conscience. This is the
way of life. . . . On the Lord’s Day gather
together, break bread, and give thanks, after
confessing your transgressions so that your
sacrifice may be pure”
(Didache 4:14, 14:1 [A.D. 70]).
The Letter of Barnabas
“You shall judge righteously. You shall not make
a schism, but you shall pacify those that contend
by bringing them together. You shall confess
your sins. You shall not go to prayer with an evil
conscience. This is the way of light”
(Letter of Barnabas 19 [A.D. 74]).
St. Ignatius of Antioch
“For as many as are of God and of Jesus Christ
are also with the bishop. And as many as shall,
in the exercise of penance, return into the unity
of the Church, these, too, shall belong to God,
that they may live according to Jesus Christ”
(Letter to the Philadelphians 3 [A.D. 106]).
“For where there is division and wrath, God does
not dwell. To all them that repent, the Lord
grants forgiveness, if they turn in penitence to
the unity of God, and to communion with the
bishop”
(ibid., .
St. Irenaeus of Lyons
“[The Gnostic disciples of Marcus] have deluded
many women. . . . Their consciences have been
branded as with a hot iron. Some of these
women make a public confession [of their
previous heresy/sins], but others are ashamed to
do this, and in silence, as if withdrawing from
themselves the hope of the life of God, they
either apostatize entirely or hesitate between the
two courses”
(Against Heresies 1:22 [A.D. 189]).
Tertullian of Carthage
“[Regarding confession, some] flee from this
work as being an exposure of themselves, or
they put it off from day to day. I presume they
are more mindful of modesty than of salvation,
like those who contract a disease in the more
shameful parts of the body and shun making
themselves known to the physicians; and thus
they perish along with their own bashfulness”
(Repentance 10:1 [A.D. 203]).
St. Hippolytus of Rome
“[The bishop conducting the ordination of the
new bishop shall pray:] God and Father of our
Lord Jesus Christ. . . . Pour forth now that power
which comes from you, from your royal Spirit,
which you gave to your beloved Son, Jesus
Christ, and which he bestowed upon his holy
apostles . . . and grant this your servant, whom
you have chosen for the episcopate, [the power]
to feed your holy flock and to serve without
blame as your high priest, ministering night and
day to propitiate unceasingly before your face
and to offer to you the gifts of your holy Church,
and by the Spirit of the high priesthood to have
the authority to forgive sins, in accord with your
command”
(Apostolic Tradition 3 [A.D. 215]).
Origen of Alexandria
“[A final method of forgiveness], albeit hard and
laborious [is] the remission of sins through
penance, when the sinner . . . does not shrink
from declaring his sin to a priest of the Lord and
from seeking medicine, after the manner of him
who say, ‘I said, “To the Lord I will accuse
myself of my iniquity”’”
(Homilies on Leviticus 2:4 [A.D. 248]).
St. Cyprian of Carthage
“The apostle [Paul] likewise bears witness and
says: ‘ . . . Whoever eats the bread or drinks the
cup of the Lord unworthily will be guilty of the
body and blood of the Lord’ [1 Cor. 11:27]. But
[the impenitent] spurn and despise all these
warnings; before their sins are expiated, before
they have made a confession of their crime,
before their conscience has been purged in the
ceremony and at the hand of the priest . . . they
do violence to [the Lord’s] body and blood, and
with their hands and mouth they sin against the
Lord more than when they denied him”
(The Lapsed 15:1–3 (A.D. 251]).
“Of how much greater faith and salutary fear are
they who . . . confess their sins to the priests of
God in a straightforward manner and in sorrow,
making an open declaration of conscience. . . . I
beseech you, brethren, let everyone who has
sinned confess his sin while he is still in this
world, while his confession is still admissible,
while the satisfaction and remission made
through the priests are still pleasing before the
Lord”
(ibid., 28).
“[S]inners may do penance for a set time, and
according to the rules of discipline come to
public confession, and by imposition of the hand
of the bishop and clergy receive the right of
Communion. [But now some] with their time [of
penance] still unfulfilled . . . they are admitted to
Communion, and their name is presented; and
while the penitence is not yet performed,
confession is not yet made, the hands of the
bishop and clergy are not yet laid upon them, the
Eucharist is given to them; although it is written,
‘Whosoever shall eat the bread and drink the cup
of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body
and blood of the Lord’ [1 Cor. 11:27]“
(Letters 9:2 [A.D. 253]).
“And do not think, dearest brother, that either the
courage of the brethren will be lessened, or that
martyrdoms will fail for this cause, that penance
is relaxed to the lapsed, and that the hope of
peace [i.e., absolution] is offered to the penitent.
. . . For to adulterers even a time of repentance
is granted by us, and peace is given”
(ibid., 51[55]:20).
“But I wonder that some are so obstinate as to
think that repentance is not to be granted to the
lapsed, or to suppose that pardon is to be denied
to the penitent, when it is written, ‘Remember
whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the
first works’ [Rev. 2:5], which certainly is said to
him who evidently has fallen, and whom the Lord
exhorts to rise up again by his deeds [of
penance], because it is written, ‘Alms deliver
from death’ [Tob. 12:9]“
(ibid., 51[55]:22).
St. Aphraahat the Persian
“You [priests], then, who are disciples of our
illustrious physician [Christ], you ought not deny
a curative to those in need of healing. And if
anyone uncovers his wound before you, give him
the remedy of repentance. And he that is
ashamed to make known his weakness,
encourage him so that he will not hide it from
you. And when he has revealed it to you, do not
make it public, lest because of it the innocent
might be reckoned as guilty by our enemies and
by those who hate us”
(Treatises 7:3 [A.D. 340]).
St. Basil the Great
“It is necessary to confess our sins to those to
whom the dispensation of God’s mysteries is
entrusted. Those doing penance of old are found
to have done it before the saints. It is written in
the Gospel that they confessed their sins to
John the Baptist [Matt. 3:6], but in Acts [19:18]
they confessed to the apostles”
(Rules Briefly Treated 288 [A.D. 374]).
St. John Chrysostom
“Priests have received a power which God has
given neither to angels nor to archangels. It was
said to them: ‘Whatsoever you shall bind on
earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatsoever
you shall loose, shall be loosed.’ Temporal rulers
have indeed the power of binding; but they can
only bind the body. Priests, in contrast, can bind
with a bond which pertains to the soul itself and
transcends the very heavens. Did [God] not give
them all the powers of heaven? ‘Whose sins you
shall forgive,’ he says, ‘they are forgiven them;
whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.’
What greater power is there than this? The
Father has given all judgment to the Son. And
now I see the Son placing all this power in the
hands of men [Matt. 10:40; John 20:21–23].
They are raised to this dignity as if they were
already gathered up to heaven”
(The Priesthood 3:5 [A.D. 387]).
St. Ambrose of Milan
“For those to whom [the right of binding and
loosing] has been given, it is plain that either
both are allowed, or it is clear that neither is
allowed. Both are allowed to the Church, neither
is allowed to heresy. For this right has been
granted to priests only”
(Penance 1:1 [A.D. 388]).
St. Jerome of Stridonium
“If the serpent, the devil, bites someone secretly,
he infects that person with the venom of sin.
And if the one who has been bitten keeps silence
and does not do penance, and does not want to
confess his wound . . . then his brother and his
master, who have the word [of absolution] that
will cure him, cannot very well assist him”
(Commentary on Ecclesiastes 10:11 [A.D. 388]).
St. Augustine of Hippo
“When you shall have been baptized, keep to a
good life in the commandments of God so that
you may preserve your baptism to the very end. I
do not tell you that you will live here without sin,
but they are venial sins which this life is never
without. Baptism was instituted for all sins. For
light sins, without which we cannot live, prayer
was instituted. . . . But do not commit those sins
on account of which you would have to be
separated from the body of Christ. Perish the
thought! For those whom you see doing penance
have committed crimes, either adultery or some
other enormities. That is why they are doing
penance. If their sins were light, daily prayer
would suffice to blot them out. . . . In the
Church, therefore, there are three ways in which
sins are forgiven: in baptisms, in prayer, and in
the greater humility of penance”
(Sermon to Catechumens on the Creed 7:15,
8:16 [A.D. 395]).



this clearly show Christian practicing confession from the 1st century. so you're incorrect.

I'm still waiting for the quote from Newman.

Ubenedictus:
actually the Corinthian case is very much on point... it clearly shows an apostle declaring a sin forgiven with the authority of Christ and it has nothing to do with illness. it clearly shows that sins aren't only declared forgiven only during healings as you claimed. here an apostle declare a sin forgiven without reference to an ailment.

again you seem ignorant of the fact that confession isn't limited to a box, in fact it can happen anywhere and in ancient times it was done right before the assembly in some Christian churches, those communities only stopped public confession when some people started to use it for blackmail purpose.

lol did Jesus read from a new testament or solemnise Sunday... did he teach in gentile country? the apostles and disciples wrote a new testament, worshipped on Sundays, and taught in gentile lands, they had the holy spirit who guided them in organising the Church. even Paul who didn't see the Lord while on earth received by revelation. besides the Gospels didn't claim to record every time Jesus forgave sin for you to claim Paul made a mistake when he declared forgiveness even without ailment

The adulterous woman was chased to where Jesus Christ was and he said...any one who has not committed sin let him be the first to throw stone.... The woman was not sick ... she committed sin and was caught ...she did not go to confession but was caught ...... This ties with when he see your brother commiting sin ...you need to see it spiritually like Jesus always saw it in the sprit realm and forgave ... He didn't need the help of the sinner


Carry go you Don win

Themandator:
Haha Rev. Fr.
Carry go


Newman wrote that book before becoming a Catholic and actuaugaveit to the church to edit to suit their doctrines and practices but they could not but rather told him that he wrote it as a non Catholic.


That book traced the history of the pagan root of most of your practices.... Not just confession including Christmas and even the changing of the worship days to Sundays but as far you be father carry go ...make I keep my sword ...you win.... Confession na the real thing

oya give the name of the book and the quote he made on confession verbertim.

Themandator:




The adulterous woman was chased to where Jesus Christ was and he said...any one who has not committed sin let him be the first to throw stone.... The woman was not sick ... she committed sin and was caught ...she did not go to confession but was caught ...... This ties with when he see your brother commiting sin ...you need to see it spiritually like Jesus always saw it in the sprit realm and forgave ... He didn't need the help of the sinner


Carry go you Don win

oh you are happy with forgiving sins of people who are caught or are sick but you are against the forgiveness of people who confess abi?