looool

Radoillo:


The artefacts had been buried for a thousand years, and their memory largely erased; so of course their discovery would come as a bit of surprise. But the interesting thing here is that when the anthropologist, Onwuejeogwu, showed pictures of these bronzes to illiterate elders at Agukwu, they were able to identify 90% of them and also told the anthropologists the uses of 85% of them. They wouldn't have been able to do that if the works were not of the same cultural paradigm as the historic Nri. If I took the same pictures to Ife and showed it to Ife elders, would they be able to tell me what 85% of them were used for in a ritual context?

If you say the Igbo couldn't have produced the works because the present-day Igbo were unaware they were there before they were dug up, did Ife know they were there, then? If they didn't, too, then what's your point really?



No, sir, the connection IS NOT obvious. Art historians have written over and over these past decades about how distinct and apparently unconnected the art of both places are. The two people used different types of alloys. The two people used different techniques in producing their work. Some of the techniques used in Ife were unknown at Igbo-Ukwu; some of the techniques used at Igbo-Ukwu were unknown at Ife. You should read the work of experts more rather than sitting in your room and making things up.

At least in this regard there are traditions in support of an Ife-Benin diffusion. Where are the traditions in support of an Ife-IgboUkwu diffusion? Non-existent. In any case, the Bini did make their own brass works, not the Ife - even if they originally may have learnt from Ife smiths. What you are saying here is that Ife smiths did the actual execution of the Igbo-Ukwu bronzes. Your Bini analogy therefore fails.


Hahahahaha!Such obsolete, ethnocentric line of reasoning. Thinly-veiled tribalistic nonsense. Comparing Tiv level of social organization with the level of organisation in the Nri area shows how unread and ill-informed you actually are. The only part of Igboland that had the same level of fragmentary and dispersed settlement pattern and political organisation as the Tiv was the northeastern Igbo area. Read more.



You are embarrassing yourself. Tribute came to Nri from all over Anambra State and Enugu State (I won't speak of the Western Igbo area, as I do not know the details of their involvement with Nri). There are easily several hundreds of towns and villages in the two aforementioned states from which tribute reached Nri.

The 'most' who did not send tribute to Nri were the southern and eastern Igbo who did not acknowledge Nri's spiritual pre-eminence. There were easily more Igbo villages who paid tribute to Nri than the ones who paid tribute to the Attah-Igala and the Oba of Benin combined. Only the fringe communities in Nsukka acknowledged the Attah-Igala. And the Igbo-speaking areas from which Oba got any form of recognition that would include tribute-paying did not even extend as far as Ibusa in Delta State, not to say anything about the southeast proper.



If the Eze Nri is not a king, but a mere priest, then the Ooni of Ife is a mere priest and no king. That's all I'm saying on this.



Igbos were not organised in small independent villages. Villages (ebos) combined with other villages to form quarters (onuku); onuku combined with other onuku to form the town, or what anthropologists called a village group. Such towns or village-groups could in precolonial times have a population of between 5,000 and well over 18,000. Arochukwu was reckoned in the 19th century to have up to 50,000 souls. After the Anglo-Aro war in the early 20th century, the population was put by the British at over 25,000.

Your underestimation of Igbo community sizes is no doubt based on material that make general statements about the Igbo based on prevailing stereotypes of tiny villages with no visible rulers.



It seems obvious only to you, my friend.

Arochukwu's socio political organisation was like that of the Yoruba, not similar to Nri who lived in villages. The Eze Aro is like a Yoruba monarch, not like an Nri priest. I am not saying people from Ife Osun state made those bronze works but I believe the people who made those works are people affiliated with an ancient Ife. This year June 3 will be the beginning of 10060th year of the Ife calendar. When that era started and up to 5 thousand years after, there were no Yorubas or Igbos but Ife people.

Ife was the political as well as the spiritual capital, other Yoruba states are Ife successors, that is never denied. Many have eclipsed Ife and that is normal but all still acknowledge Ife as origin. It is a bit different from the Eze Nri status. Ife is a state of its own with towns and villages and extracts no tribute from any of the successor states who are fully independent and separately run. The Ooni rules Ife and not any other Yoruba land. The Eze Nri does not rule anywhere. There is a kind of similarity though but yet they are different. One is a monarch and the other is not.

I'm done, Lawani. It looks like we're about to begin the inevitable going-round-in-circles game. Just keep your series of ancient Ifes on your side of the Niger; they had nothing to do with us and our achievements.


On the topic: A number of the Olozas had names beginning with 'Ade'. I read in one work by Biodun Adediran that 'Ade-' names did not become current among the Yoruba prior to about the 18th century. I don't know how true that statement is.

Radoillo:
I'm done, Lawani. It looks like we're about to begin the inevitable going-round-in-circles game. Just keep your series of ancient Ifes on your side of the Niger; they had nothing to do with us and our achievements.


On the topic: A number of the Olozas had names beginning with 'Ade'. I read in one work by Biodun Adediran that 'Ade-' names did not become current among the Yoruba prior to about the 18th century. I don't know how true that statement is.

That is true, though Ade has always meant crown. It may mean the Olozas or Olojas of Ugbodumila were the first to start fixing Ade to names. I will make research to find out if there are any ancient Yoruba monarchs with an Ade name. I doubt it really.

Aole, Abisipa, Sango and etc are names of Alaafins. The present one is Adeyemi the second. Sijuwade is a name containing Ade and it is the name of Olubuse the second, the late Ooni. Owa Obokuns are Atakunmosa, Bepo, Biladu, Aromolaran and etc, Aromolaran the second is on the throne and his personal name is Adekunle. It is remarkable that ancient monarchs did not use Ade as prefix to names.

Radoillo:


The artefacts had been buried for a thousand years, and their memory largely erased; so of course their discovery would come as a bit of surprise. But the interesting thing here is that when the anthropologist, Onwuejeogwu, showed pictures of these bronzes to illiterate elders at Agukwu, they were able to identify 90% of them and also told the anthropologists the uses of 85% of them. They wouldn't have been able to do that if the works were not of the same cultural paradigm as the historic Nri. If I took the same pictures to Ife and showed it to Ife elders, would they be able to tell me what 85% of them were used for in a ritual context?

If you say the Igbo couldn't have produced the works because the present-day Igbo were unaware they were there before they were dug up, did Ife know they were there, then? If they didn't, too, then what's your point really?



No, sir, the connection IS NOT obvious. Art historians have written over and over these past decades about how distinct and apparently unconnected the art of both places are. The two people used different types of alloys. The two people used different techniques in producing their work. Some of the techniques used in Ife were unknown at Igbo-Ukwu; some of the techniques used at Igbo-Ukwu were unknown at Ife. You should read the work of experts more rather than sitting in your room and making things up.

At least in this regard there are traditions in support of an Ife-Benin diffusion. Where are the traditions in support of an Ife-IgboUkwu diffusion? Non-existent. In any case, the Bini did make their own brass works, not the Ife - even if they originally may have learnt from Ife smiths. What you are saying here is that Ife smiths did the actual execution of the Igbo-Ukwu bronzes. Your Bini analogy therefore fails.


Hahahahaha!Such obsolete, ethnocentric line of reasoning. Thinly-veiled tribalistic nonsense. Comparing Tiv level of social organization with the level of organisation in the Nri area shows how unread and ill-informed you actually are. The only part of Igboland that had the same level of fragmentary and dispersed settlement pattern and political organisation as the Tiv was the northeastern Igbo area. Read more.



You are embarrassing yourself. Tribute came to Nri from all over Anambra State and Enugu State (I won't speak of the Western Igbo area, as I do not know the details of their involvement with Nri). There are easily several hundreds of towns and villages in the two aforementioned states from which tribute reached Nri.

The 'most' who did not send tribute to Nri were the southern and eastern Igbo who did not acknowledge Nri's spiritual pre-eminence. There were easily more Igbo villages who paid tribute to Nri than the ones who paid tribute to the Attah-Igala and the Oba of Benin combined. Only the fringe communities in Nsukka acknowledged the Attah-Igala. And the Igbo-speaking areas from which Oba got any form of recognition that would include tribute-paying did not even extend as far as Ibusa in Delta State, not to say anything about the southeast proper.



If the Eze Nri is not a king, but a mere priest, then the Ooni of Ife is a mere priest and no king. That's all I'm saying on this.



Igbos were not organised in small independent villages. Villages (ebos) combined with other villages to form quarters (onuku); onuku combined with other onuku to form the town, or what anthropologists called a village group. Such towns or village-groups could in precolonial times have a population of between 5,000 and well over 18,000. Arochukwu was reckoned in the 19th century to have up to 50,000 souls. After the Anglo-Aro war in the early 20th century, the population was put by the British at over 25,000.

Your underestimation of Igbo community sizes is no doubt based on material that make general statements about the Igbo based on prevailing stereotypes of tiny villages with no visible rulers.



It seems obvious only to you, my friend.

You look like some smart chap trying to lay claims to the sophisticated Igbo-ukwu artworks, said to be of superior making and finesse compared to any of its peers of its time and contemporary times. If only wishes could come true.

bigfrancis21:


You look like some smart chap trying to lay claims to the sophisticated Igbo-ukwu artworks, said to be of superior making and finesse compared to any of its peers of its time and contemporary times. If only wishes could come true.

All these stupid history from google.

tonychristopher:


But why would u call ugbodo Yoruba.does that sound Yoruba to u..they don't bear Yoruba names their culture and names igbo

Just go call them your ba and see

Just few days ago ...femi was telling me how he wish he is igbo

Actually, unless a word contains "chi" or something absent from yoruba lexicon it sounds yoruba. they bear yoruba names actually. .. jst like Chidi and Chukwudi in different igbo dialects, Names like Mojere and Mozere, Omawunmi and Omowunmi are different dialects of the same language...even Oloza is Oloja


they say Oma - like many yorubas do
say Aze when western yorubas say Aje
they say "se" like many yorubas while western yorubas say "she"


their culture doesn't seem so different from what we have in Owo - their homeland

macof:


Actually, unless a word contains "chi" or something absent from yoruba lexicon it sounds yoruba. they bear yoruba names actually. .. jst like Chidi and Chukwudi in different igbo dialects, Names like Mojere and Mozere, Omawunmi and Omowunmi are different dialects of the same language...even Oloza is Oloja


they say Oma - like many yorubas do
say Aze when western yorubas say Aje
they say "se" like many yorubas while western yorubas say "she"


their culture doesn't seem so different from what we have in Owo - their homeland

Actually, names with 'mo' in Igboland especially in Delta Igbo axis are very common and is often a short spelling of 'mmuo' meaning 'spirit'. Names like mokwunye, modebe, mozere (may the spirit intercede), enemmo etc. are quite common in Anioma. On the eastern flank, 'mmuo' bearing names in full are more common i.e. mmuodebe, enemmuo, ilommuo etc.

Radoillo:

Been a while brother. How you doing? Kee ebe I no kita?

macof:


Actually, unless a word contains "chi" or something absent from yoruba lexicon it sounds yoruba. they bear yoruba names actually. .. jst like Chidi and Chukwudi in different igbo dialects, Names like Mojere and Mozere, Omawunmi and Omowunmi are different dialects of the same language...even Oloza is Oloja


they say Oma - like many yorubas do
say Aze when western yorubas say Aje
they say "se" like many yorubas while western yorubas say "she"


their culture doesn't seem so different from what we have in Owo - their homeland

Apart from all that Ugbodumila is clearly a Yoruba language understandable by any Yoruba speaking person. Ugbo- Forest, du mi- seize me or rescue me, la- saved or prospered.

If I say Ade ati Akin n du aga it means Ade and Akin are dragging or contesting for a chair between them. Ugbodumila means the forest seized me or rescued me and I was saved.

bigfrancis21:


Actually, names with 'mo' in Igboland especially in Delta Igbo axis are very common and is often a short spelling of 'mmuo' meaning 'spirit'. Names like mokwunye, modebe, mozere (may the spirit intercede), enemmo etc. are quite common in Anioma. On the eastern flank, 'mmuo' bearing names in full are more common i.e. mmuodebe, enemmuo, ilommuo etc.

You fail to see the point. ur igbo Mozere doesn't mean anything like the Olukumi "Mozere". ..which means the same thing when rendered as "Mojere" in yoruba.. that is "I've been favored"

even the name "Olukumi" means same in all yoruba dialects which includes Olukumi dialect...

bigfrancis21:




Been a while brother. How you doing? Kee ebe I no kita?

I'm alright. Aka m no Naija.

macof:


You fail to see the point. ur igbo Mozere doesn't mean anything like the Olukumi "Mozere". ..which means the same thing when rendered as "Mojere" in yoruba.. that is "I've been favored"

even the name "Olukumi" means same in all yoruba dialects which includes Olukumi dialect...

I just thought I'd point that out before the 'claim' goes on to other 'Mo-' Igbo names such as Modebe, Mokwunye etc. Mozere is not a common Igbo name, per say, and could be strictly Olukwumi but has an Igbo meaning if rendered differently.

Radoillo:


I'm alright. Aka m no Naija.

Oh boy...I na-akunu...o dika I nwetego ofu ezigbo olu na Abuja maobu Lagos?

bigfrancis21:


Oh boy...I na-akunu...o dika I nwetego ofu ezigbo olu na Abuja maobu Lagos?

Hehehe.

lawani:

I have read a lot of published materials about those Igbo Ukwu bronze. The materials also came from Eastern mines as well but the fact remains that the Nri was a loose confederation of independent villages of maybe around 3 thousand population each, when the population rises, they divide and some form a new village, they were urban shy people. The villagers farmed and did other things but no chance of developing a caste of highly skilled bronze artists that could have made such works.

The people who made the bronze works were Igbo ancestors who lived in cities but they were not Nri who lived in villages. Igbos will never accept they and the Yoruba share common ancestors despite all the evidence.

Firstly, Nri consists of the four core towns of Enugwu-ukwu, Nawfia, Enugwu-Agidi and Agukwu section of Nri town. Oruora no longer exists. Basically every town or village of Nri ancestry must have a direct lineage to any of the above Nri towns.

From irrefutable information at my disposal, tributes to Nri also came from ancient Benin Obas and Attahs of Igala.

Igbo-Nkwo or more accurately Oraeri bronzeworks are all hundreds of years older than Ife artworks
Igbo-Nkwo bronzeworks were discovered alongside a royal burial chamber of a seated ancient Eze Nri, as has remained the case till this day, and such sacred artworks would not have been crafted by proto Yorubas as you put it, as such holy relics would have needed properly suitable craftsmen who were loyal to the Nri worship system. You can totally rule out Ife craftsmen. In fact, Igala or Benin craftsmen were more likely and more qualified to produce such artworks than Ife people because both cultures were within the Nri sphere of influence

Now I know Awka people produced IRON artefacts enmass, but I will have to study and enquire a little more, to find out whether Awka blacksmiths produced brass or bronzeworks

The Igala did not use the lost wax method and the Benin has never denied that they learnt the art from Ife. So Ife is the owner of the style undoubtedly at least in the modern context that we can relate with but go back further like 5 thousand years ago. No distinction between Igbos and Yoruba. So it is all mixed up and it can not be denied that the Yoruba are the custodians of the history of those ancient ancestors. Nris have no history farther back than ten centuries ago or so. There were no state funded institutions to support the preservation of history. The Ifa corpus maybe the largest body of poetry in the world passed down meticulously over thousands of years. Without organisation that can't be possible, the creation of such bronze works will also be more impossible.

Also, the Eze Nri did not take tribute. It would be wrong to suggest that. They got donations and never used force on anyone. The Eze Aro, Attah Igala, Oba of Benin and etc were the tribute takers in those areas in the past. Not the Eze Nri who was a priest.

lawani:
The Igala did not use the lost wax method and the Benin has never denied that they learnt the art from Ife. So Ife is the owner of the style undoubtedly at least in the modern context that we can relate with but go back further like 5 thousand years ago. No distinction between Igbos and Yoruba. So it is all mixed up and it can not be denied that the Yoruba are the custodians of the history of those ancient ancestors. Nris have no history farther back than ten centuries ago or so. There were no state funded institutions to support the preservation of history. The Ifa corpus maybe the largest body of poetry in the world passed down meticulously over thousands of years. Without organisation that can't be possible, the creation of such bronze works will also be more impossible.

Also, the Eze Nri did not take tribute. It would be wrong to suggest that. They got donations and never used force on anyone. The Eze Aro, Attah Igala, Oba of Benin and etc were the tribute takers in those areas in the past. Not the Eze Nri who was a priest.

I find it surprising that you are won't to deliberately lay claims to the Igbo Ukwu artworks, known to the best of its peers in the entire southern region and Europe at its time and many centuries after, by mere 'thinking' of 'only Ife could have produced such artwork' with no solid proof whatsoever other than 'I think those artworks belong to the Ife' so as to claim something as mighty and polished as the Igbo Ukwu artworks. One would wonder why if Ife produced such artworks or taught other people, why the artworks produced in Ife itself are not as polished or half good as that of Igbo-Ukwu artworks.

Yea, I understand your inclination to lay claims to the Igbo Ukwu artworks. In the figment of your imagination, Ife is the 'greatest' place on earth, 'capable' of producing such exceptional artworks. No other tribe in Nigeria is capable of building such. Truth be told, the Ife artworks cannot be compared to the more sophisticated Igbo Ukwu artworks, which baffled scientists as to how ancient Igbos could have built such sophisticated artworks, at least comparable to none in Europe at its time.

While the Ife artworks are mostly heads, simple and few, the Igbo Ukwu artworks display much more artistry, sophistication and finesse.

IFE

[img]http://hum.lss.wisc.edu/hjdrewal/ife_new_jthu_pg.jpg[/img]
[img]http://hum.lss.wisc.edu/hjdrewal/Ife4.jpg[/img]
[img]http://hum.lss.wisc.edu/hjdrewal/Ife3.jpg[/img]
[img]http://hum.lss.wisc.edu/hjdrewal/Ife5.jpg[/img]

Meanwhile,
IGBO-UKWU
[img]http://2.bp..com/-gPGeSlbEPps/T1EABR-ZcRI/AAAAAAAAAKQ/zFoIfOyKPQM/s320/Igbo%2BUkwu.jpg[/img]





And much more. Yea, I see your inclination to want to lay claims to Igbo Ukwu artworks as yours.

Mind you, just like the Egyptians, ancient Igbos also built pyramids, albeit smaller than the Egyptian pyramids. This is not recorded in history for the Yorubas.

I find it funny how some people try to go back to rewrite history to put themselves in limelight even when there is no proof whatsoever.

^^ lol, what kind of selective posting is that?

if you want to talk about intricacy, this is also Ife art.







[img]http://2.bp..com/-QC1lZZoCv1Q/Um8HLV2IoXI/AAAAAAAAB2k/31XuLbeLRco/s1600/Screen+shot+2013-10-26+at+9.33.16+PM.png[/img]







Which in my Opinion are much finer.
It is widely acknowledged that artwork produced by the Yoruba/Edo were one of the finest in all SSA. no arguments on this one Francis.
Your works speak for you.

scholes0:
^^ lol, what kind of selective posting is that?

if you want to talk about intricacy, this is also Ife art.







[img]http://2.bp..com/-QC1lZZoCv1Q/Um8HLV2IoXI/AAAAAAAAB2k/31XuLbeLRco/s1600/Screen+shot+2013-10-26+at+9.33.16+PM.png[/img]







Which in my Opinion are much finer.
It is widely acknowledged that artwork produced by the Yoruba/Edo were one of the finest in all SSA. no arguments on this one Francis.
Your works speak for you.

@bold...first you admit that it is your opinion. Good job. Second, never has it been widely 'acknowledged' anywhere whatsoever as you claim. The Ife artworks are mostly head artworks, simple in nature and lacking any intriguing complexities. On the other hand, the Igbo Ukwu artworks were craft-fully and artfully made and carved and woven, to the very smallest degree of precision such as the representation of insects landing on the item being carved.

According to Williams, Denis (1974). Icon and Image: A Study of Sacred and Secular Forms in African Classical Ar. Allen lane London. p. 211, Apparently the metal workers of ancient Igbo-Ukwu were not aware of commonly used techniques such as wire making, soldering or riveting which suggests an independent development and long isolation of their metal working tradition.

From the above, the writer acknowledges that the Igbo Ukwu artworks were most likely a handwork of the ancient Igbos themselves, having developed independently of any outside influence.

According to Garlake, Peter (2002). Early art and architecture of Africa. Oxford: Oxford University Press. p. 120., It is therefore perplexing that they were able to create objects with such fine surface detail that they depict, for example small insects which seem to have landed on the surface. Though these appear to have been riveted or soldered on to the artifacts, they were actually cast in one piece.

The Grove Encyclopedia of Materials and Techniques in Art describes them as being "among the most inventive and technically accomplished bronzes ever made." Although the lost wax casting process was used to produce the bronzes, latex was probably used in Igbo-Ukwu instead of beeswax which would explain how the artists were able to produce such fine and filigrann surface detail. Some of the techniques used by the ancient smiths are not known to have been used outside Igbo-Ukwu such as the production of complex objects in stages with the different parts later fixed together by brazing or by casting linking sections to join them. [Here, another source corroborates the independent production of the Igbo Ukwu artworks by the Igbos themselves, not to some outside influence as Lawani would want to claim.] However the complexity of some of the Igbo-Ukwu objects has led to considerable altercation between various metallurgic experts and debates regarding the actual production process which is an affidavit for the highly developed and intricate work of the ancient artists.

The composition of the metal alloys used in the production of the bronze is unique, with an unusually high silver content and is distinct from alloys used in Europe, the Mediterranean or other African bronze centers. The origin of the metal ore used to produce the bronze has been located to old mines in Abakiliki about 100 kilometers from Igbo-Ukwu.

They are the oldest bronze artifacts known in West African and were manufactured centuries before the emergence of other known bronze producing centers such as those of Ife and Benin. (Source: Apley, Alice (October 2001). "Igbo–Ukwu (ca. 9th century)". Heilbrunn Timeline of Art History. Metropolitan Museum of Art. Retrieved December 15, 2014)

The Igbo-Ukwu artifacts did away with the hitherto existing colonial era opinions in archaeological circles that such magnificent works of art and technical proficiency could only originate in areas with contact to Europe, or that they could not be crafted in an acephalous or egalitarian society such as that of the Igbo. Some of the glass and carnelian beads have been found to be produced in Old Cairo at the workshops of Fustat thus establishing that trade contacts did exist between Igbo-Ukwu and ancient Egypt.

While Ife artworks were mostly head images, Igbo Ukwu artworks were diversified and included numerous ritual vessels, pendants, crowns, breastplates, staff ornaments, swords, and fly-whisk handles, indicating a more experienced and diversified expertise of the creators.

Now compare those artworks that you've posted to much more finer works of the Igbo Ukwu displaying finesse and artful precision:

A lost wax cast of a ram's head from Igbo-Ukwu, eastern Nigeria, 9th century



Beautiful art



A bronze ceremonial wine bowl, Igbo Ukwu, Nigeria, 9th century



A lost wax cast vessel, Igbo-Ukwu, eastern Nigeria, 9th century



Bronze stand incorporating images of a warrior, Igbo Ukwu, Nigeria, 9th-10th century



Bronze bowl cast by the 'lost wax' method, Igbo Ukwu, Nigeria, 9th century


Head of a priest





[img]http://pics.livejournal.com/cnsofo1/pic/0000ca7k/s640x480[/img]


Aha! And just like you said, there is no argument on this one scholes0.

If bronze art cast with the lost wax method were found buried in Europe, it will be attributed to Ife. Not to talk of when found in nearby Ugbo Ukwu buried in the compound of subsistence farmers and villagers.

If there was a certain ancient Ife in Anambra, then that might explain it. An Ife chief may also have gone on exile or was returning to a more ancient Ife with the bronze works then died on the way and etc. Those are what should be considered because the lost wax method is Ife property and there are definitely more bronzes scattered, buried all over the country yet to be discovered. If some are found in Kaduna in 50 years' time in the compound of subsistence farmers and villagers, it would still be attributable to Ife.

lawani:
If bronze art cast with the lost wax method were found buried in Europe, it will be attributed to Ife. Not to talk of when found in nearby Ugbo Ukwu buried in the compound of subsistence farmers and villagers.

If there was a certain ancient Ife in Anambra, then that might explain it. An Ife chief may also have gone on exile or was returning to a more ancient Ife with the bronze works then died on the way and etc. Those are what should be considered because the lost wax method is Ife property and there are definitely more bronzes scattered, buried all over the country yet to be discovered. If some are found in Kaduna in 50 years' time in the compound of subsistence farmers and villagers, it would still be attributable to Ife.

Lol. Do you have any academic proof of this, albeit small whatsoever? Are you insinuating that the lost wax method is only unique to the Ife people?

I love your continued insistence to lay claims to Igbo Ukwu artworks even when you have no evidence whatsoever. Keep it up bro.

bigfrancis21:


Lol. Do you have any academic proof of this, albeit small whatsoever? Are you insinuating that the lost wax method is only unique to the Ife people?

I love your continued insistence to lay claims to Igbo Ukwu artworks even when you have no evidence whatsoever. Keep it up bro.

That method is used worldwide but the Ife bronzes made with that method are more intricate. Others are not as intricate and the bronzes are not a surprise to Ife or Benin people. That is the point. To the Yoruba, Ife has always existed and there is no way some people will be making such bronzes in Igbo Ukwu that Ife will not know about it. Infact they will be Ife people. No Nri city that has always been there, Nri is new. Ife may have changed locations severally but it has always been there from the beginning of time when the first civilized humans landed on Earth, so this is why the Igbo Ukwu bronze were made by Ife people. Only a highly organised nation with central authourity like Benin, Ife can make those works. The name even sounds exactly like Forest of death in Yoruba, then Yoruba and Igbo languages are cousins and there are people who were ancestors to both Igbos and Yoruba.

I may be wrong though but that is how I feel about it. Ancient Ife people were not Yoruba. They are ancestors of all. They did not speak Yoruba, their language is lost but modern Yoruba are their linear successors just because they kept the history.

lawani:

That method is used worldwide but the Ife bronzes made with that method are more intricate. Others are not as intricate and the bronzes are not a surprise to Ife or Benin people. That is the point. To the Yoruba, Ife has always existed and there is no way some people will be making such bronzes in Igbo Ukwu that Ife will not know about it. Infact they will be Ife people. No Nri city that has always been there, Nri is new. Ife may have changed locations severally but it has always been there from the beginning of time when the first civilized humans landed on Earth, so this is why the Igbo Ukwu bronze were made by Ife people. Only a highly organised nation with central authourity like Benin, Ife can make those works. The name even sounds exactly like Forest of death in Yoruba, then Yoruba and Igbo languages are cousins and there are people who were ancestors to both Igbos and Yoruba.

I may be wrong though but that is how I feel about it. Ancient Ife people were not Yoruba. They are ancestors of all. They did not speak Yoruba, their language is lost but modern Yoruba are their linear successors just because they kept the history.

There's nothing intricate about Ife artworks. They are simple in nature and mostly head works, indicating a specialized artistry of Ife metal workers in producing just heads only. On the other hand, the Igbo-ukwu creators were more diversified in their skill producing a wide arrays of art works. By mere reasoning of this fact alone, Ife could not have attempted nor created Igbo-ukwu artworks in anyway when they could nearly not replicate the same in their home turf. It is the same as the US claiming they 'own' the cocoa production in Nigeria because they are a world power when they barely produce cocoa.

You have every right to feel the way you do. It is your right. Nobody is going to take that from you. But objectivity becomes important when discussing history and ancestral connections.

bigfrancis21:


There's nothing intricate about Ife artworks. They are simple in nature and mostly head works, indicating a specialized artistry of Ife metal workers in producing just heads only. On the other hand, the Igbo-ukwu creators were more diversified in their skill producing a wide arrays of art works. By mere reasoning of this fact alone, Ife could not have attempted nor created Igbo-ukwu artworks in anyway when they could nearly not replicate the same in their home turf. It is the same as the US claiming they 'own' the cocoa production in Nigeria because they are a world power when they barely produce cocoa.

You have every right to feel the way you do. It is your right. Nobody is going to take that from you. But objectivity becomes important when discussing history and ancestral connections.

The long and short of it is that finding something buried in Anambra does not mean it was made by Nri Igbos. Even the remains of a man of European origin was found in the Americas and it predates Columbus by I think over a thousand years. So finding something somewhere is not conclusive on its origin. Take Lokoja town for instance, just in the 18th to early 19th century, it was an Oyo Yoruba town for slave dealing. Nowadays, it no longer has that identity. So if artefacts are unearthed there in the compound of some Igbo villagers in 2000 years' time, the Nri Igbos will lay claim to that artefacts as made by their ancestors? I hope you see my point.

lawani:


The long and short of it is that finding something buried in Anambra does not mean it was made by Nri Igbos. Even the remains of a man of European origin was found in the Americas and it predates Columbus by I think over a thousand years. So finding something somewhere is not conclusive on its origin. Take Lokoja town for instance, just in the 18th to early 19th century, it was an Oyo Yoruba town for slave dealing. Nowadays, it no longer has that identity. So if artefacts are unearthed there in the compound of some Igbo villagers in 2000 years' time, the Nri Igbos will lay claim to that artefacts as made by their ancestors? I hope you see my point.

The same way one can argue that the artifacts found at Ife may not have been built by the Ife people but by some external form of civilization. By your logic, there is no proof the Ife constructed those artworks. Just because they were found in Ife doesn't mean they belong to Ife. These examples you gave are possibilities but in this case they do not apply. And like you said before, this is your opinion or just how you feel. Nobody is going to take that from you. However, standard scientific knowledge has been clearly stated out regarding the origin and date of the Igbo Ukwu artworks.

Like I said before, it would be laughable for the Ife to claim Igbo Ukwu artworks when they cannot or did not replicate the same in their own territory. What evidence then do you have that the artworks were made by the Ife people, other than just 'I want to believe that Ife did'?

Moreover, almost nearly nothing connects ancient Igbo and Yoruba ancient history whatsoever. The sudden clamour for Igbo-Ukwu arts by some Yorubas is quite laughable indeed.

To the best of my knowledge, the Nri have not laid any claims to any artifacts from other Igbo areas asides the one clearly known to belong to Nri. I am not sure where this is coming from.

bigfrancis21:


The same way one can argue that the artifacts found at Ife may not have been built by the Ife people but by some external form of civilization. By your logic, there is no proof the Ife constructed those artworks. Just because they were found in Ife doesn't mean they belong to Ife. These examples you gave are possibilities but in this case they do not apply. And like you said before, this is your opinion or just how you feel. Nobody is going to take that from you. However, standard scientific knowledge has been clearly stated out regarding the origin and date of the Igbo Ukwu artworks.

Like I said before, it would be laughable for the Ife to claim Igbo Ukwu artworks when they cannot or did not replicate the same in their own territory. What evidence then do you have that the artworks were made by the Ife people, other than just 'I want to believe that Ife did'?

Moreover, almost nearly nothing connects ancient Igbo and Yoruba ancient history whatsoever. The sudden clamour for Igbo-Ukwu arts by some Yorubas is quite laughable indeed.

To the best of my knowledge, the Nri have not laid any claims to any artifacts from other Igbo areas asides the one clearly known to belong to Nri. I am not sure where this is coming from.

Would you say the Benin bronze made in Benin but learnt from Ife were not made in Benin then? And we know Benin was a big city and Ife was a big city. Both were capitals of empires but Nri was nothing of that sort. Infact Benin is Ife too because the real name is Ife Ibinu. I hope you see why I believe the Igbo Ukwu bronze were made by an Ife people.

scholes0:
Ugbodu Community - Yoruba settlements in Aniocha North LGA.



Culled from the Ugbodu Development Union (U.D.U)
http://uduuk.com/Town.html

On a courtesy visit to the area, the following was gathered from King Ayo and Prince Adebowale Ochei of the Royal house:



Traditionally, the area was divided into a number of societies, Some of which include The following:



According to Ugbodu.net the community's online website, there have been two dynasties of Obas and Olozas (Probably culled from the Yoruba and Benin terms: Olaja, Olareja, Onoja, Onogie Etc) who have ruled the communities at different points in history.




Miss Ugbodu 2015 (middle) flanked by 1st and 2nd runners up.



Kings and Dynasties of Ugbodu
The Yoruba Dynasty Of Kings - 240 Years


http://ugbodu.net//content/yoruba-leadership-tenure-office

The Edo Dynasty Of Kings of Ugbodu
Eleven Olozas
http://ugbodu.net//content/benin-leadership-tenure-office

^^^^^^
^^^^^^
Beautiful history...

Cc: Olu317

Map of the Olukumi area in Aniocha North LGA.
Near the Edo/Delta State borders.

Exotic history...

Konquest:

^^^^^^
^^^^^^
Beautiful history...

Cc: Olu317

I have read a lot about even their significant impact in Cuba ,where they were rebellious against the white oppressions . These people were among the subset clan of Yoruba that made IFA worship and orisas such as ogun,sango, Obatala knowledge became known in their new found territory. And I find it hysterical when few people of Ibo ethnic group on NL try so much to forcefully coerce a group that refused to throw away their language that has survived over 500 years in an area that's outside their homogeneous relatives environment . Education and Yoruba language being taught is needed in this distant environ so that the Yoruba language will continually survive. This is the needed awereness that must continue to sensitize Yorubas, wherever location they find themselves, never to forget their Original homeland before emigration.

Olu317:
I have read a lot about even their significant impact in Cuba ,where they were rebellious against the white oppressions . These people were among the subset clan of Yoruba that made IFA worship and orisas such as ogun,sango, Obatala knowledge became known in their new found territory. And I find it hysterical when few people of Ibo ethnic group on NL try so much to forcefully coerce a group that refused to throw away their language that has survived over 500 years in an area that's outside their homogeneous relatives environment . Education and Yoruba language being taught is needed in this distant environ so that the Yoruba language will continually survive. This is the needed awereness that must continue to sensitize Yorubas, wherever location they find themselves, never to forget their Original homeland before emigration.

Lol. Olukwumis have been present in Delta Igbo land for over 500 years? Not true. Their settlement in the area is quite recent - about 200 to 300 years or 4 to 5 generations ago, which explains why the language sort of survived till now.

Second, since the Olukwumis still remember where exactly in Ondo state they came from, they are always free to return to their ancestral land. No Igbo, be it on NL or in real life, has tried to 'force' them to be anything they aren't. If for nothing, we gave them space and succor when they fled their original hometown and landed in our area as refugees, and they should be grateful for that for letting them in when they needed safety the most. Over time, natural adaptation took its course and most of them became Igbonized and switched to Igbo language, name and culture. However, given the option to return to their ancestral Ondo state, I doubt if most would want to, except the fanatical minority who are deeply interested in that. Over 70% of these people are deeply as Igbo as any south-easterner in language, culture and names. Every single one of them speaks Igbo as first language or maybe some speak it as second language and a much lesser percentage (especially the elderly) are bilingual in Olukwumi or an Olukwumi-Igbo mix as well. As for suddenly giving up Igbo and speaking Olukwumi only I doubt if this is feasible because Igbo language is what connects them to the greater Anioma Igbo and deciding to let go of the language would not benefit them in any way, alienate them from the greater Anioma fold and remind them of their 'immigrant' status in Delta state.