₦airaland Forum

Perfectbeing:
The one sitted on the throne and the lamb is the same. Both one and the same. Not different from each other. In Acts 7:55–56; Romans 8:34; Ephesians 1:20; Colossians 3:1, Jesus (the lamb that was slain) was said to be SITTED at the right hand of the Father. The phrase, "God’s right hand" as some of us said earlier, is used throughout Scripture to indicate His power and authority and sovereignty. Jesus is sitted at this place of power and of authority and of sovereignty with God. Doesn't that tell us that Jesus and God are both the the same and not different, since God won't share his glory with any one.

That being said, I want to introduce us to the Greek word "kai". Please ride down with me.

"Kai" is a Greek word that is used to connect two words, phrases or clauses together, who function at the same level. With this function it is often called a coordinating conjuntion.

Things to note about the word "kai"

1. When Kai joins words or phrases together, it is simple enough and similar to English word "and".
E.g; James and John, Paul and Silas.

2 When Kai joins clauses and sentences, it is more complicated. Kai can function like an English "then" as in Matt 4:19 (Follow me, then
I will make you fishers of men). The English "and" can function the same way as in 'follow me and I will make you fishers of men.

3. When two plural nouns are connected by "kai" as in Ephesians 4:11, ...and some, pastors and teachers; The first noun, pastors, and the second noun, teachers are the same. So "teachers" is a further description of "pastors", not a separate category of individuals. This Greek construction means "pastors who are teachers", or "pastor - teachers".

4. When two SINGULAR nouns are connected by "kai", and the FIRST noun is ARTICILAR( has the article), and the SECOND is ANARTHROUS (does not have the article), the second noun is a FURTHER DESCRIPTION of the first noun.
Examples
a. Thess. 1:12, the KJV reads "the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ". God "theos" here is articular and Christ "christou" is anarthrous. Both are the same case, and therefore should read "the grace of Jesus Christ, our God and Lord".
b. Titus 2:13, the KJV reads "the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ". God "theos" here is articular, and Christ "christou" is anarthrous. Both nouns are in the same case, and therefore should read "our great God and Savior Jesus Christ".

Maamin:
Sorry, but I must have striked at least an atom of truth inside of you

No wonder they say "truth is bitter"

Maamin:
You are rewriting your own scriptures here.....

Revelation 4 says "..one sat on the throne"

Revelation 5:6-7 says the Lamb stood in the midst of the throne, came forth and took the book from the right hand of the one that sat on the throne.

There is absolutely no need for all those theories you put up there sir!

Perfectbeing:
Maamin said there that, the one on the throne is the Father, separating him from the lamb. Or was I getting him wrong? Probably I was. If I was accept my apologies..

Perfectbeing:
A good illustration about the "manifestations" (as Muttleylaff which I think I'm going to using now) of God is this this;

A man can be a father to his son yet, in other modes, a husband to his wife and a brother to his siblings. He could even be a son to his father. Now here we have, a father, a husband a brother and a son. Not four men but one Man.

So is the one on the throne and the lamb. Not two beings. But one

Maamin:
When did I make the separation?

The bible said one sit on the throne, the Lamb came forth to collect the book from the right hand of the one who sit on the throne

Perfectbeing:
Those are not theories sir..

The original scriptures that make make up the old and New Testaments of the Bible we read today were not written in English language but in Hebrew for the Old Testament and Greek for the New Testament.

Some words in the Greek could have different meanings and then requires different applications in different contexts. Since most of the early translators were not Christians but just translators, they put the meaning that made best made sense to them sometimes out of context (eg, the passage about baptising in the name the Father, son and Holy spirit that Muttleylaff explained earlier).

The Greek word "kai" is an example of those words.

"Kai" is a conjunction joining two words, phrases or clauses together.
"Kai" could mean; "and," "then," "even", "but", "that is" etc..
Application of each of those meaning of "kai" requires different approaches (4 of which I mentioned and which you termed "my theories".
Some translators interpreted or translated "kai" wrongly (either out of ignorance or in some cases to deliberately distort it's meaning.)

In my first "theory", "Kai" is translated as and as in, James and John etc.

In the second one "kai" is translated to mean "then". as in, "follow me, then I'll make you fishers of men". "and" can be used cos it won't change the meaning of the words.

In the 3rd and fourth, "kai" is correctly translated to mean "that is". As in "... some, pastor, that is, teachers (Eph 4:11). And in 1 Thess. 1:12, "the grace of our God, that is, the Lord Jesus Christ"..

Rev 5:13 also is rightly translated as, “..To him who sits on the throne, that is, the Lamb...."

I don't speak Greek or Hebrew. But I made my research to ascertain all these. I suggest you do the same.. Proper Bible interpretation can only be know if what you're reading in the Bible is correctly translated in the first place.

Maamin:
There will be serious problem everywhere in the Bible where the word "and" appears going by that your interpretation.

Take for example that Rev. 5:13 you quoted.

13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

Your interpretation

13 And every creature which is in heaven, that is on the earth, that is under the earth, that is such as are in the sea, that is all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, that is honour, that is glory, that is power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, that is unto the Lamb for ever that is ever.

However if you choose to replace "and" with "then" the passage looses it context completely.

There is no 1 Thess 1:12 I guess you meant to say 1:2

The fact still remains that Jesus the Son came from/out of the father. You can't pick fault now in that passage. No! You can't.

Perfectbeing:
Maamin said there that, the one on the throne is the Father, separating him from the lamb. Or was I getting him wrong? Probably I was. If I was accept my apologies..

Maamin:
When did I make the separation?

The bible said one sit on the throne, the Lamb came forth to collect the book from the right hand of the one who sit on the throne

Perfectbeing:
And I keep telling you that both the lamb and the one who sits on the throne are one and the same. Just with different manifestation. Just like the man who's a father, husband, brother and son is one Man explained in four lights.

Maamin:
This analogy does not hold much water...

For him to be called father he beget a Son out of him or from him.

MuttleyLaff:
Perfectbeing if you're keep telling
that both the Lamb and the One who sits on the throne are one and the same,
you need to make sure that what you're telling is in agreement and/or in harmony with "... father he beget a Son out of him or from him"

Maamin:
There will be serious problem everywhere in the Bible where the word "and" appears going by that your interpretation.

Take for example that Rev. 5:13 you quoted.

13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

Your interpretation

13 And every creature which is in heaven, that is on the earth, that is under the earth, that is such as are in the sea, that is all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, that is honour, that is glory, that is power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, that is unto the Lamb for ever that is ever.

However if you choose to replace "and" with "then" the passage looses it context completely.

There is no 1 Thess 1:12 I guess you meant to say 1:2

The fact still remains that Jesus the Son came from/out of the father. You can't pick fault now in that passage. No! You can't.

OneJ:
Maamim, these Trinity peddlers will keep twisting & distorting the scriptures for their own ends.
With out such, the carpet would be pulled off their feet sharp sharp..
It's so obvious that their heart is already foreclosed to the truth.

OneJ:
" IT IS CLEAR THAT THIS DOES NOT INCLUDE GOD HIMSELF, who put everything under Christ".
1 Cor15:27.
The Lamb was given access to the throne by the One who owns the throne, his Father, Jehovah (Yahweh.).

"For you (the Father) granted him (Jesus) authority over all people that he (Jesus) might give eternal life to all those you (the Father) have given him (Jesus)". John 17:2.

OneJ:
The Lamb is addressed as Prince (Isaiah 9:6) appointed heir (Hebrew 1:1,2).
Were such titles ever addressed to Almighty God at anytime? No !!

OneJ:
Obviously, the Lamb is a subordinate.
When a man lies to himself, his only redemption is to speak the truth to himself.

Shalom aleikhem.

CC :
perfectbeing mutteylaff

Perfectbeing:
Yes they are.

Maamin, are you still having issues about God Almighty the creator being Jesus?

OneJ:
Maamim, these Trinity peddlers will keep twisting & distorting the scriptures for their own ends. With out such, the carpet would be pulled off their feet sharp sharp..
It's so obvious that their heart is already foreclosed to the truth.


" IT IS CLEAR THAT THIS DOES NOT INCLUDE GOD HIMSELF , who put everything under Christ". 1 Cor15:27.
The Lamb was given access to the throne by the One who owns the throne, his Father,Jehovah ( Yahweh.).


"For you (the Father) granted him (Jesus) authority over all people that he (Jesus) might give eternal life to all those you(the Father) have given him(Jesus)". John 17:2.



The Lamb is addressed as Prince (Isaiah 9:6) appointed heir (Hebrew 1:1,2). Were such titles ever addressed to Almighty God at anytime? No !! Obviously, the Lamb is a subordinate.
When a man lies to himself, his only redemption is to speak the truth to himself.


Shalom aleikhem.

CC :
perfectbeing

mutteylaff

OneJ:
Maamim, these Trinity peddlers will keep twisting & distorting the scriptures for their own ends. With out such, the carpet would be pulled off their feet sharp sharp..
It's so obvious that their heart is already foreclosed to the truth.


" IT IS CLEAR THAT THIS DOES NOT INCLUDE GOD HIMSELF , who put everything under Christ". 1 Cor15:27.
The Lamb was given access to the throne by the One who owns the throne, his Father,Jehovah ( Yahweh.).


"For you (the Father) granted him (Jesus) authority over all people that he (Jesus) might give eternal life to all those you(the Father) have given him(Jesus)". John 17:2.



The Lamb is addressed as Prince (Isaiah 9:6) appointed heir (Hebrew 1:1,2). Were such titles ever addressed to Almighty God at anytime? No !! Obviously, the Lamb is a subordinate.
When a man lies to himself, his only redemption is to speak the truth to himself.


Shalom aleikhem.

CC :
perfectbeing

mutteylaff

Maamin:
I don't have issues, it is triniterians that have the issues with
God Almighty the creator being the father of Jesus.

Maamin:
The problem lies in making the father Co equal to the Son He beget...the funny thing is that the Father is so unique that there is none like him. He can't be sqweezed into a 3=1 confinement of human being. He is way more than that yet he is but one and there is none like him.

Isaiah 40:18 To whom then will ye liken God? or what likeness will ye compare unto him?.

Isaiah 40:25 To whom then will ye liken me, or shall I be equal? saith the Holy One.

Isaiah 46:5 To whom will ye liken me, and make me equal, and compare me, that we may be like?

That is how unique God the father is.

Perfectbeing:
Not only did Jesus claim to be God, but He also claimed to have the power of God . He said He has the authority to judge the nations ( Matthew 25 : 31- 46 ). He claims the authority to raise people from the dead ( John 5 : 25- 29) and to forgive sins ( Mark 2 : 5 - 7 ) — things only God can do ( I Sam 2: 6 ; Isa 43 :25 ).
Further , Jesus says He has the power to answer prayers ( John 14 : 13- 14 ), and that He will be with His followers always ( Matthew 28 : 20 ) . The Bible equates Jesus to the creator of the universe ( John 1 : 3 ), and in John 16 : 15, He says , “ All that belongs to the Father is mine . ”

Jesus says, that He is “the first and the last”
Rev 1: 17, When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last (read vs 18 in case you want to argue whether it's Jesus talking).
Jesus also claim to be first and last in Rev 22
13, I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. (read vs 16, to know who's talking).
In Isaiah 44:6 God calls himself the first and the last.
Isa 44:6, "This is what the LORD says-- Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God...

Both Jesus and God claim to be the first and the last. This must either mean,
1. One of them was telling a lie.
2. Both of them was telling a lie. Or,
3. Both of them are one and the same...

Pick your choice..

Perfectbeing:
Not only did Jesus claim to be God, but He also claimed to have the power of God . He said He has the authority to judge the nations ( Matthew 25 : 31- 46 ). He claims the authority to raise people from the dead ( John 5 : 25- 29) and to forgive sins ( Mark 2 : 5 - 7 ) — things only God can do ( I Sam 2: 6 ; Isa 43 :25 ).
Further , Jesus says He has the power to answer prayers ( John 14 : 13- 14 ), and that He will be with His followers always ( Matthew 28 : 20 ) . The Bible equates Jesus to the creator of the universe ( John 1 : 3 ), and in John 16 : 15, He says , “ All that belongs to the Father is mine . ”

Jesus says, that He is “the first and the last”
Rev 1: 17, When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last (read vs 18 in case you want to argue whether it's Jesus talking).
Jesus also claim to be first and last in Rev 22
13, I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. (read vs 16, to know who's talking).
In Isaiah 44:6 God calls himself the first and the last.
Isa 44:6, "This is what the LORD says-- Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God...

Both Jesus and God claim to be the first and the last. This must either mean,
1. One of them was telling a lie.
2. Both of them was telling a lie. Or,
3. Both of them are one and the same...

Pick your choice..

pressplay411:
The Concept of the Trinity of God is the most difficult to explain (except by the Holyspirit). It is also the most important in our Walk of Faith. This is because it is the Mystery of God, the Identity of God.
How then can any Man say thaf He understands God, when we don't even understand ourselves, when we don't even understand Animals, Stars even to the least of His creation?
We can only have a simplified basic understanding of the Trinity of God. Any attempt to think we can fully grasp it will send us back to ignorance and confusion.

The Basic Concept I have so far with the help of the Holyspirit, through scriptures, servants of God and divine revelation is this and I hope the Grace of God gives us all more insight and understanding, in Jesus name.
The Father, The Son and The Holyspirit are the same One God but in Three different Manifestations.

For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one. - 1John 5:7

-God, the Father is the Father from Everlasting to Everlasting, Enthroned for Eternity. He is Love, Light, Truth, Good, Righteousness, Holiness, Eternal Life.

-God, the Son is Jesus Chist, the Word and the Lamb, Our Lord and Saviour. He is the Wisdom of God. He is God taking up human form to cohabit among us men on earth so as to fulfill the work of our Salvation. The only way we could overcome sin and death was for the Purest Blood of Jesus Christ to be our atonement, making Him our Substitution before God. He is the only Seed of Righteousness that uproots the seed of sin planted in the heart of Man by the disobedience of Adam. The knowledge and belief in Christ gives Eternal Life. Christ is the Only Way.

-God, the Holyspirit is the Spirit of God, the Spirit of Grace, our Helper that Christ promised and baptised us with. He is the Seal and Guarantee of our Faith. Only through the Holyspirit can we understand the Word (Bible), can we receive and build our Holiest Faith, can we receive Dunamis (Power) to conquer sin and overcome our fears and death. Only with the Holyspirit can we be attuned with God to fulfill our purpose.

It helps to think of the Trinity of God as the 3 different states of Water. The Father is Water/Liquid (Endless). Ice/Solid is Chist, we could see and touch Him. The Holyspirit is Steam/Gas, we cannot hold Him but He is everywhere. Spirituality is a Flow.

May God grant us more revelation and understanding through the Holyspirit in Jesus name. Amen.

TimeMachine:
Ye Are Gods, and Children of Most High God. There are billions if not trillions of Gods, some are Gods in Amnesia, example Humans. The Purpose of Life is to realize and experience yourself as God, not just reading about it, but seeing that all things are powered by the only force in the Universe called Spirit. The mesoscopic coherency within all spectra will lead to a startling understanding that we are one being, split into fractals with individual ego. We are frequency beings of resonance made of light, our bodies are made of light, and so is everything, cos this is a simulated reality.

Creator needed to learn more, about itself and play Games to avoid burden, then fission of sound current occurred with Life being the consciousness aspect of the Creator. We are one with the Space, but we are the conscious part of Earth itself, we are the living conscious Earth.

The reason for the confusion is because our minds are taken away from where we live and placed on Heaven always, well, find out which Planet that Heaven is located, and the specific location within that Planet that Heaven is hosted. If the Bible does not give specific answers, then your best efforts should be put into Science, Quantum Cosmology and Solid State Physics will be a good start. But you will go beyond that to really know what God is.

The languages of our Grandfathers were not advanced, so there was need to use parables, but today, English Language and Science as reached the level that we can understand Life and God, except we choose to hang on ancient parables and not use the wealth of knowledge available online to decode the matrix and the Programmers of Reality.

This is a Simulated Reality, and the programmers are behind the scene of the mainframe, we are just Avatars as physical humans. When you understand the nature of Cosmic Spirit, which you call Sound current in Science, you will understand between you and the computer screen you are reading this, is a space teaming with lives of diverse permutation.

If you want to know God, then include Science as a tool. If Science does not validate any principle, then trash that principle.

pressplay411:
Wow. You are on another level of depth sir.
I hope you're a Believer. If not pls, by the time you genuinely assimilate the Word of God and your mind is simulated with Him to a point of Coherence, oh my God, you will be a world wonder.

Pls, i say this not to flatter but because I can relate.

Perfectbeing:
By "father of Jesus", do you mean "creator of Jesus? "

[quote author=Perfectbeing post=69792491]"The problem lies in making the father Co equal with the son he beget."

Tomorrow we'll talk about whether the Father and the Son are one or not. And when we're done you yourself will give me the answer..

TimeMachine:
Ye Are Gods, and Children of Most High God. There are billions if not trillions of Gods, some are Gods in Amnesia, example Humans. The Purpose of Life is to realize and experience yourself as God, not just reading about it, but seeing that all things are powered by the only force in the Universe called Spirit. The mesoscopic coherency within all spectra will lead to a startling understanding that we are one being, split into fractals with individual ego. We are frequency beings of resonance made of light, our bodies are made of light, and so is everything, cos this is a simulated reality.

Creator needed to learn more, about itself and play Games to avoid burden, then fission of sound current occurred with Life being the consciousness aspect of the Creator. We are one with the Space, but we are the conscious part of Earth itself, we are the living conscious Earth.

The reason for the confusion is because our minds are taken away from where we live and placed on Heaven always, well, find out which Planet that Heaven is located, and the specific location within that Planet that Heaven is hosted. If the Bible does not give specific answers, then your best efforts should be put into Science, Quantum Cosmology and Solid State Physics will be a good start. But you will go beyond that to really know what God is.

The languages of our Grandfathers were not advanced, so there was need to use parables, but today, English Language and Science as reached the level that we can understand Life and God, except we choose to hang on ancient parables and not use the wealth of knowledge available online to decode the matrix and the Programmers of Reality.

This is a Simulated Reality, and the programmers are behind the scene of the mainframe, we are just Avatars as physical humans. When you understand the nature of Cosmic Spirit, which you call Sound current in Science, you will understand between you and the computer screen you are reading this, is a space teaming with lives of diverse permutation.

If you want to know God, then include Science as a tool. If Science does not validate any principle, then trash that principle.

Perfectbeing:
Brother, the only way to the invisible God is through Jesus, the full expression of God. And no other way. Jesus himself said "...I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. Jh 14:6.

Science haven't been able to fully explain some of the most basic things of life. As simple as a cell is, science cannot explain it's simplicity. How much more the complexity of God. God has and is only simplified in Jesus Christ hence the reason for the statement, "if you see me, you see the father."
Using science as a means to God is like trying to get up to a building by climbing down a ladder. It will only get you what the men who tried to get to God by building the highest tower (the tower of Babel) got. Confusion!

So my brother, turn away from science to find God. And turn to Christ, who is the image of the unseen God.
Bless you.

[quote author=Perfectbeing post=69792379]Not only did Jesus claim to be God, but He also claimed to have the power of God . He said He has the authority to judge the nations ( Matthew 25 : 31- 46 ). He claims the authority to raise people from the dead ( John 5 : 25- 29) and to forgive sins ( Mark 2 : 5 - 7 ) — things only God can do ( I Sam 2: 6 ; Isa 43 :25 ).

Further , Jesus says He has the power to answer prayers ( John 14 : 13- 14 ),

and that He will be with His followers always ( Matthew 28 : 20 )

The Bible equates Jesus to the creator of the universe ( John 1 : 3 ), and in John 16 : 15, He says , “ All that belongs to the Father is mine . ”

Jesus says, that He is “the first and the last”
Rev 1: 17, When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last (read vs 18 in case you want to argue whether it's Jesus talking).

Jesus also claim to be first and last in Rev 22
13, I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. (read vs 16, to know who's talking).
In Isaiah 44:6 God calls himself the first and the last.
Isa 44:6, "This is what the LORD says-- Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God...

Both Jesus and God claim to be the first and the last. This must either mean,
1. One of them was telling a lie.
2. Both of them was telling a lie. Or,
3. Both of them are one and the same...

Pick your choice..

TimeMachine:
I have experienced the State of Being God, I do not believe in anything I can not proof. There is Divine Creator, and I am a fractal of it, so are you, so are the Trees and all of Created and Uncreated Realities but you are yet to experience it, and may never experience it until you let go of believe and faith and really take the narrow path which is Individualism via hardcore Scientific Research beyond the boundaries of Physical Reality. You need the Bible, but the old testament. It is a great recording also mixed up in a way, but it is a great guide as you progress beyond the surface.

Divine Creator is not religious, neither is it a Person. It is the Source and Cause of all that there is, and we are the Conscious aspect of It.

I do not write this, because I read it somewhere, I write my very experience beyond the veil. Do not believe me, just follow your intuition for nothing but Scientifically proven facts, and it will lead you directly to Divine Realities of Intelligence Infinity. It is an awesome world.