sino:

All the possible actions that you can take are known to Allah SWT as well as all the possible outcome, but it is up to you to choose your actions, which would eventually lead you to your destiny! But God being the Merciful, didn't leave you to just make random choices like a gambler, He SWT sent guidance as well as consequences for your actions so you wouldn't give excuses for making the wrong choices! So it is up to you!

So before I exist or the moment I was born, Allah already knows and wrote down my actions and end, yes?

Can you explain this verses,

(Quran 57:22) No calamity befalls on the earth or in yourselves but is inscribed in the Book of Decrees (Al-Lauh Al-Mahfuz), before We bring it into existence. Verily, that is easy for Allah.

(Quran 37:96) While it is Allah who created you and all your doings!

Hadith

Muslim (2653) narrated that ‘Abdullah ibn ‘Amr ibn al-‘Aas said:
I heard the Rasul of Allah (saw) say:
“Allah wrote down the decrees of creation fifty thousand years before He created the heavens and the earth.”

uthlaw:
I'm also a Muslim but what is confusing me is that.God that created us to worship him had already destined some of us will be poor and go to hell even before coming to this world in our destiny.what is the test again.

There are different stages of destiny, which I would not be able to explain right now due to some reasons from my side, but I promise to get back to you on this. In sha Allah

tintingz:
So before I exist or the moment I was born, Allah already knows and wrote down my actions and end, yes?

Can you explain this verses,

(Quran 57:22) No calamity befalls on the earth or in yourselves but is inscribed in the Book of Decrees (Al-Lauh Al-Mahfuz), before We bring it into existence. Verily, that is easy for Allah.

(Quran 37:96) While it is Allah who created you and all your doings!

Hadith

Muslim (2653) narrated that ‘Abdullah ibn ‘Amr ibn al-‘Aas said:
I heard the Rasul of Allah (saw) say:
“Allah wrote down the decrees of creation fifty thousand years before He created the heavens and the earth.”

So you could quote from the God you didn't believed exist?

Now I know why you left Islam...

AbdulQaadir:


There are different stages of destiny, which I would not be able to explain right now due to some reasons from my side, but I promise to get back to you on this. In sha Allah

Belief in al-qadar (the Divine decree) is the sixth pillar of faith, and no one’s faith is complete without it. In Saheeh Muslim ( it is narrated that Ibn ‘Umar (may Allaah be pleased with him) heard that some people were denying al-qadar. He said: “If I meet these people I will tell them that I have nothing to do with them and they have nothing to do with me. By the One by Whom ‘Abd-Allaah ibn ‘Umar swore, if one of them had gold equivalent to Mount Uhud and he spent it, Allaah would not accept it from him unless he believed in al-qadar.”

You should also note that belief in al-qadar is not valid unless you believe in the four aspects of al-qadar, which are as follows:

1 – Belief that Allaah knows all things, in general terms and in detail, from eternity to eternity. Not a single atom is unknown to Him in the heavens or on earth.

2 – Belief that Allaah has decreed all things in al-Lawh al-Mahfooz, fifty thousand years before He created the heavens and the earth.

3 – Belief that the will of Allaah is irresistable and His decree is comprehensive, so nothing happens in this universe, good or bad, but by His will.

4 – Belief that all that exists was created by Allaah. He is the Creator of all beings and the Creator of their attributes and actions, as He says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Such is Allaah, your Lord! Laa Ilaaha illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but He), the Creator of all things”

[al-An’aam 6:102]

Correct belief in al-qadar also involves believing in the following:

That the individual has free will by means of which he acts, as Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“To whomsoever among you who wills to walk straight”

[al-Takweer 81:28]

“Allaah burdens not a person beyond his scope”

[al-Baqarah 2:286]

That a person’s will and ability do not operate outside the will and decree of Allaah, Who is the One Who has given him that ability and made him able to distinguish (between good and evil) and make his choice, as He says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And you cannot will unless (it be) that Allaah wills the Lord of the ‘Aalameen (mankind, jinn and all that exists)”

[al-Takweer 81:29]

That al-qadar is Allaah’s plan for His creation. What He has shown us of it, we know and believe in, and what He has hidden from us, we accept and believe in. We do not dispute with Allaah concerning His actions and rulings with our limited minds and comprehension, rather we believe in Allaah’s complete justice and wisdom, and that He is not to be asked about what He does, may He be glorified and praised.

This is a summary of the belief of the first generations concerning this important topic. We will discuss some of this in more detail below, asking Allaah to help us to say the right thing:

1 – The meaning of al-qada’ wa’l-qadar in Arabic:

The word qada’ means perfection and completion, and the word qadar means evaluating and planning.

2 – Definition of al-qada’ wa’l-qadar in Islamic terminology:

Qadar means Allaah’s decree of all things from eternity, and His knowledge that they will come to pass at the times that are known to Him and in the specific manner that He has decreed and willed. They will happen the way they are meant to and the way they are created.

3 – Is there a difference between al-qada’ and al-qadar?

Some of the scholars said that there was a difference between them, but perhaps the most correct view is that there is no difference in meaning between al-qada’ and al-qadar, and that each of them points to the meaning of the other. There is no clear evidence in the Qur’aan or Sunnah to indicate that there is a difference between them. The scholars are agreed that the one may be applied to the other, but it should be noted that the word qadar is most usually used in the texts of the Qur’aan and Sunnah, which indicates that we must believe in this pillar. And Allaah knows best.

4 – The status of belief in al-qadar in Islam:

Belief in al-qadar is one of the six pillars of faith which were mentioned in the words of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) when Jibreel (peace be upon him) asked him about faith (eemaan). He said: “(It is) to believe in Allaah, His angels, His Books, His Messengers, the Last Day, and to believe in the Divine will and decree (al-qadar) both good and bad.” Narrated by Muslim, 8. Al-qadar is also mentioned in the Qur’aan, where Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Verily, We have created all things with Qadar (Divine Preordainments of all things before their creation as written in the Book of Decrees Al-Lawh Al-Mahfooz)”
[al-Qamar 54:49]

“And the Command of Allaah is a decree determined [qadran maqdooran]”

[al-Ahzaab 33:38]

5 – Aspects of belief in al-qadar:

Note, may Allaah help you to do that which pleases Him, that belief in al-qadar cannot be complete until you believe in the following four aspects of this doctrine:

(a) Knowledge: this is the belief that the knowledge of Allaah encompasses all things and not a single atom in the heavens or on earth falls outside of His knowledge. Allaah knew all of His creation before He created them. He knew what they would do by means of His ancient and eternal knowledge. There is a great deal of evidence that points to this such as the verses in which Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“He is Allaah, beside Whom Laa ilaaha illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but He) the All-Knower of the unseen and the seen. He is the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful”

[al-Hashr 59:22]

“and that Allaah surrounds all things in (His) Knowledge”

[al-Talaaq 65:12]

(b) Writing: this is the belief that Allaah has written the decrees concerning all created beings in al-Lawh al-Mahfooz. The evidence for that is the verse in which He says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Know you not that Allaah knows all that is in the heaven and on the earth? Verily, it is (all) in the Book (al-Lawh al-Mahfooz). Verily, that is easy for Allaah”

[al-Hajj 22:70]And the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Allaah wrote the decrees concerning all created beings fifty thousand years before He created the heavens and the earth.” Narrated by Muslim, 2653.

(c) Will: this is the belief that everything that happens in this universe happens by the will of Allaah. Whatever Allaah wills happens and whatever He does not will does not happen. Nothing exists outside of His will. The evidence for that is in the verses where Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And never say of anything, ‘I shall do such and such thing tomorrow.’

24. Except (with the saying), ‘If Allaah wills!’”

[al-Kahf 18:23, 24]

“And you cannot will unless (it be) that Allaah wills the Lord of the ‘Aalameen (mankind, jinn and all that exists)”

[al-Takweer 81:29]

(d) Creation: this is the belief that Allaah is the Creator of all things, including people’s actions. Nothing happens in this universe but He is its Creator, because He says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Allaah is the Creator of all things”

[al-Zumar 39:62]

“While Allaah has created you and what you make”

[al-Saaffaat 37:96]

And the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Allaah has made every doer and what he does.” Narrated by al-Bukhaari in Khalq Af’aal al-‘Ibaad (25) and by Ibn Abi ‘Aasim in al-Sunnah (257 and 358); classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in al-Saheehah, 1637.

Shaykh Ibn Sa’di (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: Just as Allaah is the One Who created them – meaning people – He has also created that by means of which they act, namely their abilities and will, then they do various actions of obedience and sin, by the abilities and will which Allaah has created. (al-Durrah al-Bahiyyah Sharh al-Qaseedah al-Taa’iyyah, p. 18).

Warning against arguing about issues of al-qadar on the basis of (human) reasoning:

Belief in al-qadar is the real test of the extent of a person’s belief in Allaah. It is the true test of how much a person really knows about his Lord and what results from this knowledge of certain and sincere faith in Allaah, and His attributes of majesty and perfection. That is because al-qadar raises many questions for the one who gives free rein to his reasoning to try to fully comprehend it. There have been many disputes concerning the issue of al-qadar and many people have engaged in debates and misinterpreted the verses of the Qur’aan that mention it. Indeed, the enemies of Islam in all eras have provoked confusion in the Muslims’ beliefs by discussing the issue of al-qadar and stirring up doubts about it. So no one can have true and certain faith except the one who knows Allaah by His beautiful names and sublime attributes, submitting to His commands with peace of mind and trusting in his Lord. In that case no doubts or specious arguments can find a way into his heart. Undoubtedly this is the greatest proof that belief in al-qadar is more important than belief in the other pillars of faith, and that the human mind cannot independently come to understand al-qadar, because al-qadar is one of the mysteries of Allaah in His creation; whatever Allaah has disclosed to us in His Book or on the lips of His Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) we know, accept and believe in, and whatever our Lord has not told us, we believe in and we believe in His perfect justice and wisdom, and that He is not to be questioned about what He does, but they will be questioned.

And Allaah knows best. May Allaah send blessings and peace upon His slave and Prophet Muhammad and upon his family and companions.

See: A’laam al-Sunnah al-Manshoorah, 147; al-Qada’ wa’l-Qadar fi Daw’ il-Kitaab wa’l-Sunnah by Shaykh Dr. ‘Abd al-Rahmaan al-Mahmoud; al-Eemaan bi’l-Qada’ wa’l-Qadar by Shaykh Muhammad al-Hamd.

AbdulQaadir:


So you could quote from the God you didn't believed exist?

Now I know why you left Islam...

And what's wrong quoting from that book?

Why do most theists think once you don't believe in thier God, you can't argue nor quote from their manuscripts to prove a point.

Then why do we have philosophical debates in history.

I don't under how some people reason.

AbdulQaadir:


Belief in al-qadar (the Divine decree) is the sixth pillar of faith, and no one’s faith is complete without it. In Saheeh Muslim ( it is narrated that Ibn ‘Umar (may Allaah be pleased with him) heard that some people were denying al-qadar. He said: “If I meet these people I will tell them that I have nothing to do with them and they have nothing to do with me. By the One by Whom ‘Abd-Allaah ibn ‘Umar swore, if one of them had gold equivalent to Mount Uhud and he spent it, Allaah would not accept it from him unless he believed in al-qadar.”

You should also note that belief in al-qadar is not valid unless you believe in the four aspects of al-qadar, which are as follows:

1 – Belief that Allaah knows all things, in general terms and in detail, from eternity to eternity. Not a single atom is unknown to Him in the heavens or on earth.

2 – Belief that Allaah has decreed all things in al-Lawh al-Mahfooz, fifty thousand years before He created the heavens and the earth.

3 – Belief that the will of Allaah is irresistable and His decree is comprehensive, so nothing happens in this universe, good or bad, but by His will.

4 – Belief that all that exists was created by Allaah. He is the Creator of all beings and the Creator of their attributes and actions, as He says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Such is Allaah, your Lord! Laa Ilaaha illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but He), the Creator of all things”

[al-An’aam 6:102]

Correct belief in al-qadar also involves believing in the following:

That the individual has free will by means of which he acts, as Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“To whomsoever among you who wills to walk straight”

[al-Takweer 81:28]

“Allaah burdens not a person beyond his scope”

[al-Baqarah 2:286]

That a person’s will and ability do not operate outside the will and decree of Allaah, Who is the One Who has given him that ability and made him able to distinguish (between good and evil) and make his choice, as He says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And you cannot will unless (it be) that Allaah wills the Lord of the ‘Aalameen (mankind, jinn and all that exists)”

[al-Takweer 81:29]

That al-qadar is Allaah’s plan for His creation. What He has shown us of it, we know and believe in, and what He has hidden from us, we accept and believe in. We do not dispute with Allaah concerning His actions and rulings with our limited minds and comprehension, rather we believe in Allaah’s complete justice and wisdom, and that He is not to be asked about what He does, may He be glorified and praised.

This is a summary of the belief of the first generations concerning this important topic. We will discuss some of this in more detail below, asking Allaah to help us to say the right thing:

1 – The meaning of al-qada’ wa’l-qadar in Arabic:

The word qada’ means perfection and completion, and the word qadar means evaluating and planning.

2 – Definition of al-qada’ wa’l-qadar in Islamic terminology:

Qadar means Allaah’s decree of all things from eternity, and His knowledge that they will come to pass at the times that are known to Him and in the specific manner that He has decreed and willed. They will happen the way they are meant to and the way they are created.

3 – Is there a difference between al-qada’ and al-qadar?

Some of the scholars said that there was a difference between them, but perhaps the most correct view is that there is no difference in meaning between al-qada’ and al-qadar, and that each of them points to the meaning of the other. There is no clear evidence in the Qur’aan or Sunnah to indicate that there is a difference between them. The scholars are agreed that the one may be applied to the other, but it should be noted that the word qadar is most usually used in the texts of the Qur’aan and Sunnah, which indicates that we must believe in this pillar. And Allaah knows best.

4 – The status of belief in al-qadar in Islam:

Belief in al-qadar is one of the six pillars of faith which were mentioned in the words of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) when Jibreel (peace be upon him) asked him about faith (eemaan). He said: “(It is) to believe in Allaah, His angels, His Books, His Messengers, the Last Day, and to believe in the Divine will and decree (al-qadar) both good and bad.” Narrated by Muslim, 8. Al-qadar is also mentioned in the Qur’aan, where Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Verily, We have created all things with Qadar (Divine Preordainments of all things before their creation as written in the Book of Decrees Al-Lawh Al-Mahfooz)”
[al-Qamar 54:49]

“And the Command of Allaah is a decree determined [qadran maqdooran]”

[al-Ahzaab 33:38]

5 – Aspects of belief in al-qadar:

Note, may Allaah help you to do that which pleases Him, that belief in al-qadar cannot be complete until you believe in the following four aspects of this doctrine:

(a) Knowledge: this is the belief that the knowledge of Allaah encompasses all things and not a single atom in the heavens or on earth falls outside of His knowledge. Allaah knew all of His creation before He created them. He knew what they would do by means of His ancient and eternal knowledge. There is a great deal of evidence that points to this such as the verses in which Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“He is Allaah, beside Whom Laa ilaaha illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but He) the All-Knower of the unseen and the seen. He is the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful”

[al-Hashr 59:22]

“and that Allaah surrounds all things in (His) Knowledge”

[al-Talaaq 65:12]

(b) Writing: this is the belief that Allaah has written the decrees concerning all created beings in al-Lawh al-Mahfooz. The evidence for that is the verse in which He says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Know you not that Allaah knows all that is in the heaven and on the earth? Verily, it is (all) in the Book (al-Lawh al-Mahfooz). Verily, that is easy for Allaah”

[al-Hajj 22:70]And the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Allaah wrote the decrees concerning all created beings fifty thousand years before He created the heavens and the earth.” Narrated by Muslim, 2653.

(c) Will: this is the belief that everything that happens in this universe happens by the will of Allaah. Whatever Allaah wills happens and whatever He does not will does not happen. Nothing exists outside of His will. The evidence for that is in the verses where Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And never say of anything, ‘I shall do such and such thing tomorrow.’

24. Except (with the saying), ‘If Allaah wills!’”

[al-Kahf 18:23, 24]

“And you cannot will unless (it be) that Allaah wills the Lord of the ‘Aalameen (mankind, jinn and all that exists)”

[al-Takweer 81:29]

(d) Creation: this is the belief that Allaah is the Creator of all things, including people’s actions. Nothing happens in this universe but He is its Creator, because He says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Allaah is the Creator of all things”

[al-Zumar 39:62]

“While Allaah has created you and what you make”

[al-Saaffaat 37:96]

And the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Allaah has made every doer and what he does.” Narrated by al-Bukhaari in Khalq Af’aal al-‘Ibaad (25) and by Ibn Abi ‘Aasim in al-Sunnah (257 and 358); classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in al-Saheehah, 1637.

Shaykh Ibn Sa’di (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: Just as Allaah is the One Who created them – meaning people – He has also created that by means of which they act, namely their abilities and will, then they do various actions of obedience and sin, by the abilities and will which Allaah has created. (al-Durrah al-Bahiyyah Sharh al-Qaseedah al-Taa’iyyah, p. 18).

Warning against arguing about issues of al-qadar on the basis of (human) reasoning:

Belief in al-qadar is the real test of the extent of a person’s belief in Allaah. It is the true test of how much a person really knows about his Lord and what results from this knowledge of certain and sincere faith in Allaah, and His attributes of majesty and perfection. That is because al-qadar raises many questions for the one who gives free rein to his reasoning to try to fully comprehend it. There have been many disputes concerning the issue of al-qadar and many people have engaged in debates and misinterpreted the verses of the Qur’aan that mention it. Indeed, the enemies of Islam in all eras have provoked confusion in the Muslims’ beliefs by discussing the issue of al-qadar and stirring up doubts about it. So no one can have true and certain faith except the one who knows Allaah by His beautiful names and sublime attributes, submitting to His commands with peace of mind and trusting in his Lord. In that case no doubts or specious arguments can find a way into his heart. Undoubtedly this is the greatest proof that belief in al-qadar is more important than belief in the other pillars of faith, and that the human mind cannot independently come to understand al-qadar, because al-qadar is one of the mysteries of Allaah in His creation; whatever Allaah has disclosed to us in His Book or on the lips of His Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) we know, accept and believe in, and whatever our Lord has not told us, we believe in and we believe in His perfect justice and wisdom, and that He is not to be questioned about what He does, but they will be questioned.

And Allaah knows best. May Allaah send blessings and peace upon His slave and Prophet Muhammad and upon his family and companions.

See: A’laam al-Sunnah al-Manshoorah, 147; al-Qada’ wa’l-Qadar fi Daw’ il-Kitaab wa’l-Sunnah by Shaykh Dr. ‘Abd al-Rahmaan al-Mahmoud; al-Eemaan bi’l-Qada’ wa’l-Qadar by Shaykh Muhammad al-Hamd.

From your post here I can only deduced that Allah already knows everything and decree everything, which still support my point.

If a God foreknows everything and decree everything before it happens how come freewill play a role?

It's either the God is not all-knowing and freewill exist or God is all-knowing and freewill doesn't exist.

Freewill and predestination cannot work together, it's very absurd to think both work together, there's no how you try to fine-print it, there will always be flaws!

tintingz:
And what's wrong quoting from that book?

Why do most theists think once you don't believe in thier God, you can't argue nor quote from their manuscripts to prove a point.

Then why do we have philosophical debates in history.

I don't under how some people reason.

And why do you have to quote from what you don't believe in, is your own reasoning storage bank emptied? Just wondering ni ooo

AbdulQaadir:


And why do you have to quote from what you don't believe in, is your own reasoning storage bank emptied? Just wondering ni ooo

#sigh

tintingz:
From your post here I can only deduced that Allah already knows everything and decree everything, which still support my point.

If a God foreknows everything and decree everything before it happens how come freewill play a role?

It's either the God is not all-knowing and freewill exist or God is all-knowing and freewill doesn't exist.

Freewill and predestination cannot work together, it's very absurd to think both work together, there's no how you try to fine-print it, there will always be flaws!

I guessed you didn't read the post very well, or you couldn't comprehend it very well, due to what you already have in mind

Shaykh Ibn Sa’di (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: Just as Allaah is the One Who created them – meaning people – He has also created that by means of which they act, namely their abilities and will, then they do various actions of obedience and sin, by the abilities and will which Allaah has created. (al-Durrah al-Bahiyyah Sharh al-Qaseedah al-Taa’iyyah, p. 18).

He Allah created our abilities and wiil, and you are left with what you do with it, he gave us hand, it's left to you what you do with it,Allah made it possible for you to type with your hands, he wasn't the one that typed. Note the difference.

Saying:

Freewill and predestination cannot work together, it's very absurd to think both work together, there's no how you try to fine-print it, there will always be flaws!

Can I ask a question, while you were a Muslim, did you studied about Islam, to what length?

AbdulQaadir:


I guessed you didn't read the post very well, or you couldn't comprehend it very well, due to what you already have in mind


He Allah created our abilities and wiil, and you are left with what you do with it, he gave us hand, it's left to you what you do with it,Allah made it possible for you to type with your hands, he wasn't the one that typed. Note the difference.

That's not what I'm talking about.

Did Allah for example foreknow and decree(before I was born) I will eat pizza and vomit it on the 6th of August 2018?

Saying:

Can I ask a question, while you were a Muslim, did you studied about Islam, to what length?

Yes, infact the more I was studying Islam with open mind the more I started loosing faith.

tintingz:
That's not what I'm talking about.

Did Allah for example foreknow and decree(before I was born) I will eat pizza and vomit on 6th of August 2018?

Yes, infact the more I was studying Islam with open mind the more I started loosing faith.

Did Allah for example foreknow and decree(before I was born) I will eat pizza and vomit on 6th of August 2018?

Yes, if that's what you want to know.
The issue of Destiny is not something any random brain could comprehend, it takes a lot of study.

Yes, infact the more I was studying Islam with open mind the more I started loosing faith.

I doubt if you truly studied Islam, why?
Because you wouldn't have left Islam if you understand the basic fundamental of Islam, At-Tawheed, had it been you understand it, you wouldn't have lost faith. Allah is Al-Khaaliq, Ar-Razzaaq, Al-Mudabbir.

AbdulQaadir:



Yes, if that's what you want to know.
The issue of Destiny is not something any random brain could comprehend, it takes a lot of study.

That "Yes" is enough, the rest are irrelevant.

Since yes is the answer, then case close.

I doubt if you truly studied Islam, why?
Because you wouldn't have left Islam if you understand the basic fundamental of Islam, At-Tawheed, had it been you understand it, you wouldn't have lost faith. Allah is Al-Khaaliq, Ar-Razzaaq, Al-Mudabbir.

We have scholars of Islam that have left Islam, what makes you think they didn't understand Islam? Why are you projecting my understandings of Islam?

So by your projection, those who are still Christians understand the religion right?

tintingz:
What does a self sufficient God wants to gain from worshiping him five times daily, stop dodging and shifting left and right.

If you don't have answers, then we will assume worshiping God is meaningless.

I gave you an example of the government, you pay tax, government functions, you withhold tax, and government becomes crippled! Is it the same with God?! Again! God has shown you that your worship is of no use to Him, and since you withdrew your worship has God stopped being God?! It only shows God doesn’t need your worship! And FYI, it is practically impossible for the whole world to deny God, so no matter how you wish God away, you will always fail! I specifically told you that you are the one to gain or lose!

tintingz:

Lol, if God exist we shouldn't be debating his existence just how we don't debate if the sun exist.

You shouldn't be God mouth piece if he exist, you're the one making God exist, God depends on you to exist.

You are the one that has rejected God and still not comfortable in your rejection and denial! Before you were born, before your generation was born, God exist, and my friend, after you are dead and the people of the world have forgotten you, God will continue to exist! There is absolutely nothing you can do about it! So, I am not the one debating if God exist, you are the one with the doubts, God had already spoken and had given you all what you need to believe, even within yourself, there are signs, hence my question, what authority do you have to demand how God should prove Himself to you when you do not have a say with regards to how the simplest form of life in your body functions! Think!

tintingz:

You just agree your God is not absolute moral.

Humans have the ability to determine what's wrong and right.

Sighs!

tintingz:

An absolute Good God is also the source of evil, that's paradox(self contradictions).

An all powerful God need to send guidance against evil he created, that's another paradox.

"Can God create a stone so heavy he cannot lift it?"

Everything God created is for a purpose! God is not incapacitated by what He has created, there are no contradictions. You have a problem of mixing up issues, and introducing whatever you get from God knows where to describe God! You were once a Muslim na, write what about God the way He describes Himself in the Qur’an and not mixing things up! The funny thing is that you think you have a say in how the world should be, and I ask, what can you do about it?! Do you have another ideal world you are comparing ours to or have a better concept of what God should be and do based on what?! You claim God does not exist, apparently, you deny God based on your selfish ideas of what you want God to be and do! So who should know better, who should dictate how things should be? You or your Creator (God)?! The all-powerful God does not need your opinions on how to be God! You do not even have an idea!

tintingz:

Hope you know possibility means likelihood, chance which is built on assumptions, prediction, imaginations.

Your anthropomorphic God is imaginary, even Aliens. Nothing fact or certain about thier existence.

Lol, I know what I am saying, you believe there is a possibility, then your believe isn’t absolute, thus your believe in there being no God is also not absolute, except you want to change your beliefs to be only what you can see by yourself for which I had expressed the fallacy in such belief…So in your perpetual uncertainty, there is still that possibility of a God, but I assure you, at death, you will be certain!

tintingz:

The Quran has no right because it was written by an Arab man in an ancient desert in the middle east. You claim I have no right to have a say about the universe then the mythical book has no right also.

You're still arguing from ignorance, using God of the gaps.

I don't know how I came to be therefore Brahma created me or it is Odin or it is Prometheus.

And you are arguing from what knowledge?! The absurdity of your logic is just something else!

I simply asked you what authority do you have to demand something when in fact you are nothing?! This is no God of the gaps argument, I asked you, since you are portraying a form of knowledge which must have informed your choice, perhaps you did create yourself or you have control over the simplest form of life in your own body! At least we Muslims believe that the Qur’an is God’s words and all authority belongs to God! I ask again, what authority do you have?!

tintingz:

But the Quran said those who reject Allah will burn in hell forever.

Here's a honest counter response from your fellow Muslim brother in a thread.


https://www.nairaland.com/4614795/why-hell-fire-distributors-close#69362613

Wether the person is good and kind is not Allah's business, as long as they reject Allah, he will burn the good, kind disbelievers in hell forever.

What a God!

Sighs! I knew this is what you wanted all along, shows how close-minded you are, and it is such a pity you want to portray yourself as being reasonable! I gave you a proper response bringing into cognizance all what had been stated in the Qur’an, authentic traditions and explained by reputable Islamic scholars. There is a reason I am not quoting verses or hadith to you verbatim, because your brand of atheism closes your faculty of reason! The brother you quoted knows that you do not label someone a disbeliever indiscriminately or say an individual at random is going to hell to burn eternally without having established proof against such individual, and he sure knows that Allah (SWT) is Just, and would never do injustice to anyone, hence you will get what you deserve on judgment day!

tintingz:

Every Religion and cultures have thier Gods with thier stories and they believe it to be true. The story of Hindu supreme God Brahma is different to that of Yoruba supreme God Olodumare, Yahweh is different from Allah.

There's different substituting or replacing a language, nature of God and believing in the God.

E.g Yoruba Muslims replace the supreme diety Olorun as Allah in the Quran. Many don't even know Olorun is a polytheistic deity.

And so?

tintingz:

Because it fetch them money and it's entertaining.

Do you know the blockbuster and box office these characters are in the world?

Black Panther box office is $1.347 billion!

These characters have create communities in the world.

This is the height of ridiculousness! Yeah money and entertainment, that’s what you live for right?! Well, I’m not actually surprised!

But you are still missing the point here, those making the billions are in the business of entertainment, but you who aren’t, arguing endlessly on how black panther would beat super man in an imaginary battle is plain silly when you know for certain that both do not exist!

tintingz:

It doesn't take away your God is the source of evil, you're wasting your time and it's meaningless rebuking Satan.

Rebuke the source of Evil and you're good.

If God had not informed us of the evil that he created, and how we should seek refuge in Him against such evil, then you might have a minute point, but God had taken care of that, so you are pointless! This brings me back to your “paradox”, it is with God’s power and will that we overcome the challenges of evil. Again, everything created has a purpose!

tintingz:

SMH.

The concept of evil is universal, the concept of good and bad is universal, the applications surrounding them is subjective.

If your empathy doesn't see anything wrong killing me then you're evil and lack empathy, infact you will term a psychopath.

Morality is supposed to be objective but it's not in reality.

You would have to explain how this universality came to be, or how did you come to the conclusion that there is indeed a universal evil/good/bad?!

I see you have tried to rigmarole out of your empathy theory, but not so fast, how do I lack empathy?! Is it something I can acquire or it is inborn? Do I learn this empathy like learning about this universal evil/good/bad?!

Again, if morality in reality is not objective, then it means there is no such thing as a universal evil/good/bad! So making statements such as my God is a source of evil, is myopic, and poorly and badly thought out...

tintingz:

The earth may benefit from earthquake or may not either of the two the Earth has nothing to loose, nothing is taken away, it benefit can be minuscule(tiny). We're talking about humanity here, earthquake is chaotic to us, it can wipe out a community, it's called natural disaster(negative) for a reason. No one wish for earthquake to happen!

What if People, relatives and children killed in earthquake is positive in thier reality? Are you making sense at all?

Even if we assume it's positive in thier imaginative reality, how does that make it non-disasterous in nature?

Why is humanity important than other forms of life on earth?! Why are you bothered only about humanity, since humans are actually causing more damage to other lives and are threat to earth itself?! What if earthquake, which is natural, is a form of cleansing the earth of some of you so that other beneficial living things can thrive?! Or other life forms are insignificant to your universal evil/good/bad and empathy?!

We can’t know for certain what could have been the opposite if those killed by earthquake if they were left alive, if an earthquake had killed a thousand people including Adolf Hitler, would it still have been a negative thing after we now know that Adolf killed over 2 million people?! And it is also true that some of those killed by earthquake could have been a powerful source in changing millions of life for the better! What I am trying to let you know is that, you do not have the knowledge to claim, this and that is evil or negative, since you would never have the understanding and wisdom of all the possible outcomes of an event! Hence, God, in His infinite wisdom administers the affairs of the universe as He wants and deems proper, and God is the one that determines what is good and what is bad, what is right and what is wrong, what is positive and what is negative, and God have placed that instinct in you to know to a certain degree, but again, your subjective selfish desires would always be there, it is when you can rise above such subjective selfishness and ego, that you become a better human with empathy not only for humans, but all other living and nonliving things on earth! And this is what Islam calls to!

tintingz:
So before I exist or the moment I was born, Allah already knows and wrote down my actions and end, yes?

Can you explain this verses,

(Quran 57:22) No calamity befalls on the earth or in yourselves but is inscribed in the Book of Decrees (Al-Lauh Al-Mahfuz), before We bring it into existence. Verily, that is easy for Allah.

(Quran 37:96) While it is Allah who created you and all your doings!

Hadith

Muslim (2653) narrated that ‘Abdullah ibn ‘Amr ibn al-‘Aas said:
I heard the Rasul of Allah (saw) say:
“Allah wrote down the decrees of creation fifty thousand years before He created the heavens and the earth.”

I had answered this question in the post you quoted, Yes, everything that you could possibly do and your end is already written, it is not difficult for God, but you are responsible for the specific choices you make! There is but limited things you can possibly do at a given point in time, you yourself write down things you want to do in the future, but you have the freedom to do or not to do them! Let me give an example to explain, a disaster happens, you were saved, but you lost some things, you can either dwell on what you lost and reject God, or you can be thankful to God for the life you still have! God had written the disaster and what you would lose and also, God had written all your possible responses, but it is definitely your responsibility to choose your response/reactions/actions out of the available options! No one is forcing you to do anything, heck! you chose to become an atheist, that is an action out of other possible actions available to everyone too in your circumstances but other chose differently, while you chose to be what you wanted! So what are you trying to prove?!

sino:

I had answered this question in the post you quoted, Yes, everything that you could possibly do and your end is already written, it is not difficult for God, but you are responsible for the specific choices you make! There is but limited things you can possibly do at a given point in time, you yourself write down things you want to do in the future, but you have the freedom to do or not to do them! Let me give an example to explain, a disaster happens, you were saved, but you lost some things, you can either dwell on what you lost and reject God, or you can be thankful to God for the life you still have! God had written the disaster and what you would lose and also, God had written all your possible responses, but it is definitely your responsibility to choose your response/reactions/actions out of the available options! No one is forcing you to do anything, heck! you chose to become an atheist, that is an action out of other possible actions available to everyone too in your circumstances but other chose differently, while you chose to be what you wanted! So what are you trying to prove?!

You're just contradicting yourself, Allah has written everything down and again we have freewill, is there any logical sense in this?

To make it easier and straight forward.

Did Allah for example foreknow and decree(before I exist) I will be an atheist on June 7 2001?

tintingz:
You're just contradicting yourself, Allah has written everything down and again we have freewill, is there any logical sense in this?

To make it easier and straight forward.

Did Allah for example foreknow and decree(before I exist) I will be an atheist on June 7 2001?

I have answered this above, you should rather explain why you believe there is no logical sense in you having freewill to choose your destiny here on earth!

sino:


I gave you an example of the government, you pay tax, government functions, you withhold tax, and government becomes crippled! Is it the same with God?! Again! God has shown you that your worship is of no use to Him, and since you withdrew your worship has God stopped being God?! It only shows God doesn’t need your worship! And FYI, it is practically impossible for the whole world to deny God, so no matter how you wish God away, you will always fail! I specifically told you that you are the one to gain or lose!

Worshiping God is just meaningless, that's what you're driving at.

You are the one that has rejected God and still not comfortable in your rejection and denial! Before you were born, before your generation was born, God exist, and my friend, after you are dead and the people of the world have forgotten you, God will continue to exist! There is absolutely nothing you can do about it! So, I am not the one debating if God exist, you are the one with the doubts, God had already spoken and had given you all what you need to believe, even within yourself, there are signs, hence my question, what authority do you have to demand how God should prove Himself to you when you do not have a say with regards to how the simplest form of life in your body functions! Think!

What evidence do you have that your God exist before every generation was born and will exist when every generation dies?

I need evidence not some empty talk!

Sighs!


Everything God created is for a purpose! God is not incapacitated by what He has created, there are no contradictions. You have a problem of mixing up issues, and introducing whatever you get from God knows where to describe God! You were once a Muslim na, write what about God the way He describes Himself in the Qur’an and not mixing things up! The funny thing is that you think you have a say in how the world should be, and I ask, what can you do about it?! Do you have another ideal world you are comparing ours to or have a better concept of what God should be and do based on what?! You claim God does not exist, apparently, you deny God based on your selfish ideas of what you want God to be and do! So who should know better, who should dictate how things should be? You or your Creator (God)?! The all-powerful God does not need your opinions on how to be God! You do not even have an idea!

Your God said the sun revolve the Earth, is that what science discover? Your God said beat and stone adulterers, your God said kill apostates, your God said kill homosexuals, your God said beat your wife, so tell me is this something moral or some ancient archaic babaric practice?

Your fairy anthropomorphic God have no say on whats moral, your God is the source of evil!

Lol, I know what I am saying, you believe there is a possibility, then your believe isn’t absolute, thus your believe in there being no God is also not absolute, except you want to change your beliefs to be only what you can see by yourself for which I had expressed the fallacy in such belief…So in your perpetual uncertainty, there is still that possibility of a God, but I assure you, at death, you will be certain!

Lmao!

I said there's a possibility of a first cause not your anthropomorphic imaginary being sitting on a throne in the sky, there's possibility of Aliens, there's possibility of other particles or energy causing the universe, all these are just assumptions, imaginations, predictions.

The universe can be infinite itself.

There's something called being agnostic on some things especially when we have no full knowledge of it.

And you are arguing from what knowledge?! The absurdity of your logic is just something else!

No, I look like someone arguing from the knowledge of a book where donkeys can fly.

I simply asked you what authority do you have to demand something when in fact you are nothing?! This is no God of the gaps argument, I asked you, since you are portraying a form of knowledge which must have informed your choice, perhaps you did create yourself or you have control over the simplest form of life in your own body! At least we Muslims believe that the Qur’an is God’s words and all authority belongs to God! I ask again, what authority do you have?!

Lmao! Is this now argument from authority?! Is this the fallacy you wanna play?

Your strawman get level.

Sighs! I knew this is what you wanted all along, shows how close-minded you are, and it is such a pity you want to portray yourself as being reasonable! I gave you a proper response bringing into cognizance all what had been stated in the Qur’an, authentic traditions and explained by reputable Islamic scholars. There is a reason I am not quoting verses or hadith to you verbatim, because your brand of atheism closes your faculty of reason! The brother you quoted knows that you do not label someone a disbeliever indiscriminately or say an individual at random is going to hell to burn eternally without having established proof against such individual, and he sure knows that Allah (SWT) is Just, and would never do injustice to anyone, hence you will get what you deserve on judgment day!

Oga go through the thread and read the nonsensical your brothers were posting.

He made fun of the OP and posted those verses as counter to prove his point that Allah will purnish unbelievers(that reject Allah and Muhammad) both good and bad.

And so?

Yahweh, Odin, Zeus, Olodumare, Ra, Brahma etc are not Allah.

This is the height of ridiculousness! Yeah money and entertainment, that’s what you live for right?! Well, I’m not actually surprised!

What then do you live for? Smacking your head on the ground daily?

But you are still missing the point here, those making the billions are in the business of entertainment, but you who aren’t, arguing endlessly on how black panther would beat super man in an imaginary battle is plain silly when you know for certain that both do not exist!

Lol, I can actually make my money by making Black panther clothes designs, shoes, accessories, having a community blog with adverts. Dude are you in stone age?

And that's the point, your God is imaginary and we're arguing about your imaginary anthropomorphic being somewhere in the sky.

If God had not informed us of the evil that he created, and how we should seek refuge in Him against such evil, then you might have a minute point, but God had taken care of that, so you are pointless! This brings me back to your “paradox”, it is with God’s power and will that we overcome the challenges of evil. Again, everything created has a purpose!

Why can't an almighty God just wipe out Satan from existence instead of sending guidance? Is your God not all powerful?

Why can't your God foreknow Satan will rebel and cause evil to humanity? Is your God not all-knowing?

It seems you don't know what paradox is.

You would have to explain how this universality came to be, or how did you come to the conclusion that there is indeed a universal evil/good/bad?!

Morality should be objective because that's the only way we can harmonize as humans, if morality is subjective then Muslims killing apostates will be morally accepted by them, Islamic terrorists killing people is morally accepted by them because a book said so.

I see you have tried to rigmarole out of your empathy theory, but not so fast, how do I lack empathy?! Is it something I can acquire or it is inborn? Do I learn this empathy like learning about this universal evil/good/bad?!

Empathy is natural innate in humans even in animals they have empathy. Empathy evolve just like our intellects.

The society also control how you use your empathy, e.g Slavery is morally accepted in past because that's what the society understood about humanity, moral codes are changing from generations to generations because we're progressing in our empathy.

Many Islamic practice look archaic and babaric because muslims still believe in the archaic Arabia book.

So in this era when you kill someone, you're term evil and psychopath, because we're no longer in stone age or dark age.

Again, if morality in reality is not objective, then it means there is no such thing as a universal evil/good/bad! So making statements such as my God is a source of evil, is myopic, and poorly and badly thought out...

Lol, ofcos good and bad is not universal although we're progressing.

What I said is, the concept of good and bad is universal, e.g Nigeria has the concept of good and bad, Russia has the concept of good and bad, China has the concept of good and bad etc I've the concept of good and bad, you have also but the applications are what that's different, the applications of good and bad in Saudi is different to that of USA. That's why we still have conflicts of what is morality in the world, that's why objective morality is important but we're getting there.

Why is humanity important than other forms of life on earth?! Why are you bothered only about humanity, since humans are actually causing more damage to other lives and are threat to earth itself?! What if earthquake, which is natural, is a form of cleansing the earth of some of you so that other beneficial living things can thrive?! Or other life forms are insignificant to your universal evil/good/bad and empathy?!

Earthquake will always be natural disaster, that's just the fact.

So by your logic, children should be wipe out for what beneficiary again? You think earthquake is some kind of emotional entity?

Did you reason before you post this?

I was making examples out of Humans in general, that's why I didn't include other living species.

We can’t know for certain what could have been the opposite if those killed by earthquake if they were left alive, if an earthquake had killed a thousand people including Adolf Hitler, would it still have been a negative thing after we now know that Adolf killed over 2 million people?! And it is also true that some of those killed by earthquake could have been a powerful source in changing millions of life for the better! What I am trying to let you know is that, you do not have the knowledge to claim, this and that is evil or negative, since you would never have the understanding and wisdom of all the possible outcomes of an event!

So assuming earthquake killed Adolf Hitler we should rejoice? What about the innocent people and children killed by earthquake, are you making any sense at all?

So let's assume your relatives were killed in earthquake along Adolf Hitler, what's your say?

Hence, God, in His infinite wisdom administers the affairs of the universe as He wants and deems proper, and God is the one that determines what is good and what is bad, what is right and what is wrong, what is positive and what is negative, and God have placed that instinct in you to know to a certain degree, but again, your subjective selfish desires would always be there, it is when you can rise above such subjective selfishness and ego, that you become a better human with empathy not only for humans, but all other living and nonliving things on earth! And this is what Islam calls to!

Your fairy anthropomorphic God morality is filled with babaric acts and absurdity, God creating evil and also purnishing his creation for his evil he created, your God will purnish good disbelievers in hell forever!

That God is immoral and shouldn't be worshiped, even Jainism have sense of morality than your fairy God.

sino:

I have answered this above, you should rather explain why you believe there is no logical sense in you having freewill to choose your destiny here on earth!

Lol, is destiny already decree or it's choose?

tintingz:
Worshiping God is just meaningless, that's what you're driving at.

That is what you want to convince yourself to believe!

tintingz:

What evidence do you have that your God exist before every generation was born and will exist when every generation dies?

I need evidence not some empty talk!

The evidence you seek is right in your face! your existence, the existence of the universe and all within it...

tintingz:

Your God said the sun revolve the Earth, is that what science discover? Your God said beat and stone adulterers, your God said kill apostates, your God said kill homosexuals, your God said beat your wife, so tell me is this something moral or some ancient archaic babaric practice?

Your fairy anthropomorphic God have no say on whats moral, your God is the source of evil!

You should know my now that this your tactics of being unreasonable doesn't work for you, please address my posts accordingly, or we both agree you lack the faculty of reasoning!

tintingz:

Lmao!

I said there's a possibility of a first cause not your anthropomorphic imaginary being sitting on a throne in the sky, there's possibility of Aliens, there's possibility of other particles or energy causing the universe, all these are just assumptions, imaginations, predictions.

The universe can be infinite itself.

There's something called being agnostic on some things especially when we have no full knowledge of it.

We are both saying the same thing, while you are agnostic about what might have been the first cause, and also the nature of this first cause (this is where you should realize that giving characteristics based on your assumption of my God is a fallacy), there is that possibility of it being a God! So your disbelieve in God isn't absolute, hence, my continuous pricking that little remaining conscience, wherein lies this possibility!

tintingz:

No, I look like someone arguing from the knowledge of a book where donkeys can fly.

All you needed to have done was to prove your superior knowledge/argument about the cause of the universe, instead, like always, you bring nothing but mockery, abuse and a poor attempt at sarcasm!

tintingz:

Lmao! Is this now argument from authority?! Is this the fallacy you wanna play?

Your strawman get level.

What fallacy?! I bring evidences from based on my beliefs, you however bring nothing, because you believe in nothing!

tintingz:

Oga go through the thread and read the nonsensical your brothers were posting.

He made fun of the OP and posted those verses as counter to prove his point that Allah will purnish unbelievers(that reject Allah and Muhammad) both good and bad.

Well, that is irrelevant here.

tintingz:

Yahweh, Odin, Zeus, Olodumare, Ra, Brahma etc are not Allah.

If you paid attention to my post properly, you would have understood that I was informing you that I am not perturbed by other Gods because I believe there is only one God, and every culture and people believe in this supreme God, and call God by different names...I wasn't talking about gods that some people worship as a means to the Supreme GOD! You may go back to my posts if you think otherwise.

tintingz:

What then do you live for? Smacking your head on the ground daily?

I live for a purpose that is beyond my selfish desires, to worship God in the specific way he had directed me to, which also include all my activities here on earth, so that I will be the best I am made to be, and get the reward meant for me after I die!

But you live for the money and entertainment, shows your claim about having empathy is pure BS, it is even evident the way you respond to me, your empathy doesn't cover respecting other peoples beliefs?!

tintingz:

Lol, I can actually make my money by making Black panther clothes designs, shoes, accessories, having a community blog with adverts. Dude are you in stone age?

And that's the point, your God is imaginary and we're arguing about your imaginary anthropomorphic being somewhere in the sky.

Eyah, I know it will take some time, but I believe it would definitely sink in...

Now, you my friend are not into the business of entertainment, you do not have any of the things you listed above, you sure are certain that black panther does not exist, but you spend your days arguing about it, please do tell how this argument is very intelligent of you and profitable to you?!

So also, you should relate the above to the fact that you are not religious and you do not believe in God, yet you are arguing on a daily basis about this! Is this a reasonable thing to continuously engage your life in on almost a daily basis?! On the other hand, I am a Muslim, I believe in God, and hence have so many things to gain discussing God on a daily basis.

When the above sinks, you are free to change tactics!

tintingz:

Why can't an almighty God just wipe out Satan from existence instead of sending guidance? Is your God not all powerful?

Why can't your God foreknow Satan will rebel and cause evil to humanity? Is your God not all-knowing?

It seems you don't know what paradox is.

And "for a purpose" seems incomprehensible to you?! The paradox is only in your mind, you have closed your mind to all other reasonable explanation of your "why" except that which supports your choice of atheism, so no matter what I write, you will not reason!

God does what He wants and wills, because God is all-knowing and all-powerful! If you agree that the knowledge of the universe that is available to us is limited, then you can't in any way fault what I say God does, because you have little or no knowledge of even how this earth came to be habitable for man and for what purpose...

tintingz:

Morality should be objective because that's the only way we can harmonize as humans, if morality is subjective then Muslims killing apostates will be morally accepted by them, Islamic terrorists killing people is morally accepted by them because a book said so.

You want to harmonize human morality based on what?! And while you are always making mockery of religion and religious people, the most viable tool to harmonize people is religion! A believe in a superior being who would definitely punish you after death if you go against the standards of His morality is the only way, well except you want the science fiction option of putting a chip in the human brain!

As it stands, you have no say in faulting what anyone does, because you do not have any standards, and you believe the reality of morality is subjective!

tintingz:

Empathy is natural innate in humans even in animals they have empathy. Empathy evolve just like our intellects.

The society also control how you use your empathy, e.g Slavery is morally accepted in past because that's what the society understood about humanity, moral codes are changing from generations to generations because we're progressing in our empathy.

Many Islamic practice look archaic and babaric because muslims still believe in the archaic Arabia book.

So in this era when you kill someone, you're term evil and psychopath, because we're no longer in stone age or dark age.

I agree empathy is innate, and also believe that it is acquired from teaching and learning, and here brings to fore the need for reminders and guidance which is why God sent teachers and reminders in forms of Prophets, Messengers and Books! What other better understanding of empathy can you possibly bring compared to “None of you have faith until you love for your neighbor what you love for yourself”?!

If empathy is still evolving, progressing and changing as you suggests, then reaching moral harmony would most likely be an impossible task!

Since I would be called a psychopath for killing you, because my empathy does not see it as bad, does it not mean that I am being judged by other people's subjective morality? Then why do you have issues with Muslim's sense of "subjective" morality pertaining to homosexuality, adultery, etc.?!

tintingz:

Lol, ofcos good and bad is not universal although we're progressing.

What I said is, the concept of good and bad is universal, e.g Nigeria has the concept of good and bad, Russia has the concept of good and bad, China has the concept of good and bad etc I've the concept of good and bad, you have also but the applications are what that's different, the applications of good and bad in Saudi is different to that of USA. That's why we still have conflicts of what is morality in the world, that's why objective morality is important but we're getting there.

As I opined above, so what then is your problem with my choice of morality?! And why do you think it is important the world needs objective morality?! How would you be certain of the objectivity of the morality and remove this application barrier?! Would such objective morality be in a book to be circulated across the world and taught in schools and colleges?! Would there be consequences/penalties if anyone go against these objective morality?! Or is it evolution that would magically imprint the updated empathy software and we all get it at once and work by it?!

While I hope you have the answers to my above queries, wouldn't a divine law that governs our day to day activities suffice and more reasonable, knowing fully well that if you default, your punishment isn't just here on earth, but also after death?!

tintingz:

Earthquake will always be natural disaster, that's just the fact.

So by your logic, children should be wipe out for what beneficiary again? You think earthquake is some kind of emotional entity?

Did you reason before you post this?

I was making examples out of Humans in general, that's why I didn't include other living species.

You claim to be open-minded, do you think other life forms matter?!

Earthquake isn't an emotional reaction of earth, but a reality of earth, and since it is natural, calling it a disaster is just a subjective appellation by humans, while other life forms that are now thriving, wouldn't care less of how many of you died, and judging from the harm humans cause (global warming, deforestation, extinction of animals, plants etc.), perhaps such other life that is now thriving after an earthquake would help the earth to regain it natural form!

Why do your empathy fail you when you kill other animals for food and clothing?!

tintingz:

So assuming earthquake killed Adolf Hitler we should rejoice? What about the innocent people and children killed by earthquake, are you making any sense at all?

So let's assume your relatives were killed in earthquake along Adolf Hitler, what's your say?

What about the 2 million innocent people and children who would have been saved by the death of Hitler in an earthquake?!

The sense I am making is that you do not have the knowledge to fault the activities of God who is all-knowing, because you do not and cannot see the full picture! It is like losing a job and you feel it is a disaster, but you became a multimillionaire being an entrepreneur! Wouldn't you be grateful for the job loss and consider it a good thing, even though it would have been a horrible experience?!

tintingz:

Your fairy anthropomorphic God morality is filled with babaric acts and absurdity, God creating evil and also purnishing his creation for his evil he created, your God will purnish good disbelievers in hell forever!

That God is immoral and shouldn't be worshiped, even Jainism have sense of morality than your fairy God.

Why are you being good?! If your being good is subjective, how can we prove that you are sincerely good?! And why should God care that you are good when you have rejected the existence of this same God?! Can you reject/abuse/make mockery of your parents and still seek their favours?!

tintingz:
Lol, is destiny already decree or it's choose?

it is both!

sino:


That is what you want to convince yourself to believe!

Lol, no.. that's what makes worshiping God meaningless and when worshiping God is meaningless, God himself/herself/itself is meaningless.

The evidence you seek is right in your face! your existence, the existence of the universe and all within it...

This is not an evidence oga, you're arguing from ignorance (argumentum ad ignoratiam).

You should know my now that this your tactics of being unreasonable doesn't work for you, please address my posts accordingly, or we both agree you lack the faculty of reasoning!

Why not counter the immoral practice I mentioned in your holy book?

We are both saying the same thing, while you are agnostic about what might have been the first cause, and also the nature of this first cause (this is where you should realize that giving characteristics based on your assumption of my God is a fallacy), there is that possibility of it being a God! So your disbelieve in God isn't absolute, hence, my continuous pricking that little remaining conscience, wherein lies this possibility!

Are you assuming your God exist or you know your God exist?

There's also possibility the universe is infinite.

All you needed to have done was to prove your superior knowledge/argument about the cause of the universe, instead, like always, you bring nothing but mockery, abuse and a poor attempt at sarcasm!

Lmao.

What fallacy?! I bring evidences from based on my beliefs, you however bring nothing, because you believe in nothing!

Lol, evidence is base on beliefs? Sino oooo!

If evidence is base on beliefs, then I believe Santa Claus exist, I believe Leprechauns exist, I believe tooth fairy exist, I believe Vampires exist, I believe there's a white dragon and unicorn above the sky, because I've evidence base on my beliefs.

You think I don't believe in nothing, I believe in those existing creatures above.

Well, that is irrelevant here.

If you paid attention to my post properly, you would have understood that I was informing you that I am not perturbed by other Gods because I believe there is only one God, and every culture and people believe in this supreme God, and call God by different names...I wasn't talking about gods that some people worship as a means to the Supreme GOD! You may go back to my posts if you think otherwise.

You're confusing yourself.

I live for a purpose that is beyond my selfish desires, to worship God in the specific way he had directed me to, which also include all my activities here on earth, so that I will be the best I am made to be, and get the reward meant for me after I die!

Worshiping God is meaningless.

But you live for the money and entertainment, shows your claim about having empathy is pure BS, it is even evident the way you respond to me, your empathy doesn't cover respecting other peoples beliefs?!

Lmao, how does empathy has to do entertainment?

Empathy has nothing to do with your worshiping your God five times daily, empathy is having human values.

We have some muslims worshiping God five times daily but still go out killing and bombing people.

Eyah, I know it will take some time, but I believe it would definitely sink in...

Now, you my friend are not into the business of entertainment, you do not have any of the things you listed above, you sure are certain that black panther does not exist, but you spend your days arguing about it, please do tell how this argument is very intelligent of you and profitable to you?!

So also, you should relate the above to the fact that you are not religious and you do not believe in God, yet you are arguing on a daily basis about this! Is this a reasonable thing to continuously engage your life in on almost a daily basis?! On the other hand, I am a Muslim, I believe in God, and hence have so many things to gain discussing God on a daily basis.

When the above sinks, you are free to change tactics!

Lol, who told you I'm not into business of entertainment? What a Fallacy.

So assuming I'm not into it, I can't start tomorrow?

People find happiness in different things, sport, movies, superheroes, music, praying, fasting, partying, reading etc, but that happiness shouldn't be harmful to another.

You're the one that need to sink this into your skull.

And "for a purpose" seems incomprehensible to you?! The paradox is only in your mind, you have closed your mind to all other reasonable explanation of your "why" except that which supports your choice of atheism, so no matter what I write, you will not reason!

For a God to claim to be all powerful and all good but can't wipe out the evil Satan he created from existence and only send guidance shows he's not capable, this leads to a paradox.

I didn't close my mind to all your explanation, I just fine many of them absurd.

God does what He wants and wills, because God is all-knowing and all-powerful! If you agree that the knowledge of the universe that is available to us is limited, then you can't in any way fault what I say God does, because you have little or no knowledge of even how this earth came to be habitable for man and for what purpose...

Still arguing from ignorance, keep on with the gods of the gap argument.

You want to harmonize human morality based on what?! And while you are always making mockery of religion and religious people, the most viable tool to harmonize people is religion! A believe in a superior being who would definitely punish you after death if you go against the standards of His morality is the only way, well except you want the science fiction option of putting a chip in the human brain!

Point of correction, I don't make fun of good religious people, I'm only criticizing the babaric, absurd, ridiculous practice in Religions.

As it stands, you have no say in faulting what anyone does, because you do not have any standards, and you believe the reality of morality is subjective!

Lmao, it seems you're not reading clearly between the lines.

I said morality is suppose to be objective for us to harmonize but in reality as we're now morality is subjective, look around is morality objective?

Why can't I have say in faults of someone? So if someone murdered my relative I shouldn't have a say? How do you reason and even comment?

I use to think you're this intelligent.

I agree empathy is innate, and also believe that it is acquired from teaching and learning, and here brings to fore the need for reminders and guidance which is why God sent teachers and reminders in forms of Prophets, Messengers and Books! What other better understanding of empathy can you possibly bring compared to “None of you have faith until you love for your neighbor what you love for yourself”?!

In as much as there are good Muslims out there and that bolded phrase is a good one, it's a paradox when we relate it to the Islamic Sharia like beating your wife, killing apostates, killing homosexuals, stoning adulterers etc these are base on archaic practice.

You know I told you empathy is also control by society and era

If empathy is still evolving, progressing and changing as you suggests, then reaching moral harmony would most likely be an impossible task!

Yes.

It's likely we get there or not, this is one of the reason why country leaders come together for summit.

Since I would be called a psychopath for killing you, because my empathy does not see it as bad, does it not mean that I am being judged by other people's subjective morality? Then why do you have issues with Muslim's sense of "subjective" morality pertaining to homosexuality, adultery, etc.?!

Killing someone for no reason is something of the stone age and dark age, like I said objective morality is now playing a role in our era and it's progressing, we're now in age of enlightenment. It's a murder case when you kill someone in every nation.

Imagine you find yourself attractive to your fellow gender, you were not able to control it, it's even causing you depression and one day Sharia men caught you in sexual act with a man, and you're sentence to death, how would you see this Sharia men? That's empathy.

As I opined above, so what then is your problem with my choice of morality?! And why do you think it is important the world needs objective morality?! How would you be certain of the objectivity of the morality and remove this application barrier?! Would such objective morality be in a book to be circulated across the world and taught in schools and colleges?! Would there be consequences/penalties if anyone go against these objective morality?! Or is it evolution that would magically imprint the updated empathy software and we all get it at once and work by it?!

While I hope you have the answers to my above queries, wouldn't a divine law that governs our day to day activities suffice and more reasonable, knowing fully well that if you default, your punishment isn't just here on earth, but also after death?!

I don't have problem with your morality as long as you're not hurting anyone.

You claim to be open-minded, do you think other life forms matter?!

Yes.

Earthquake isn't an emotional reaction of earth, but a reality of earth, and since it is natural, calling it a disaster is just a subjective appellation by humans, while other life forms that are now thriving, wouldn't care less of how many of you died, and judging from the harm humans cause (global warming, deforestation, extinction of animals, plants etc.), perhaps such other life that is now thriving after an earthquake would help the earth to regain it natural form!

Mind knowing the life forms from earthquake after-effect?

Ok assuming New life form was discover from earthquake effect, so when earthquake show up again, what then will happen to the "life form"?

Every life form is as a result of survival of the fittest a.k.a natural selection, natural disasters is chaotic to every living species.

Why do your empathy fail you when you kill other animals for food and clothing?!

I actually have empathy for animals but humans have to survive, we have to do everything to survive, even animals do same.

Meanwhile we have animal rights, who are against any form of abuse on animals.

What about the 2 million innocent people and children who would have been saved by the death of Hitler in an earthquake?!

Lol, people would only rejoice about Hitler's death not rejoice about the earthquake that killed 2 million innocent people and Children!

Hitler cannot live forever but earthquake will continue to occur as long as the Earth still stands.

You're talking as if Hitler can only be killed by earthquake.

The sense I am making is that you do not have the knowledge to fault the activities of God who is all-knowing, because you do not and cannot see the full picture! It is like losing a job and you feel it is a disaster, but you became a multimillionaire being an entrepreneur! Wouldn't you be grateful for the job loss and consider it a good thing, even though it would have been a horrible experience?!

You're not making sense.

You are talk as if once you loose a job, another big job is waiting for you, there is no assurance to that.

When someone is dead in an earthquake, he/she is gone it's different to that of loosing a job which one still have hope.

Why are you being good?! If your being good is subjective, how can we prove that you are sincerely good?! And why should God care that you are good when you have rejected the existence of this same God?! Can you reject/abuse/make mockery of your parents and still seek their favours?!

Lmao, I'm good and I know I'm good because I make use of my empathy which is natural innate in me, that's sincerity.

But you are only good because a book told you so and dictate to you how to be good lol , you're good because you fear wrath of Allah, you fear going to hell forever, your goodness is base on fear not natural/empathy.

sino:

it is both!

How does this work?

Someone destiny has been decree before he/she exist, what again is he/she choosing?

If you path away from the destiny that has been foreknown by Allah, is Allah still all-knowing?

tintingz:
Lol, no.. that's what makes worshiping God meaningless and when worshiping God is meaningless, God himself/herself/itself is meaningless.

Okay, as I said, that is what you want to believe.

tintingz:

This is not an evidence oga, you're arguing from ignorance (argumentum ad ignoratiam).

Last time I checked, you do not have any superior argument as to the cause of the universe as well as any reasonable belief as to the purpose of life!

tintingz:

Why not counter the immoral practice I mentioned in your holy book?

When you present the proper practices of my religion and not the stereotypes and propagandas which you yourself had countered on this same platform, then I would take you seriously.

tintingz:

Are you assuming your God exist or you know your God exist?

It isn't difficult to understand my post, you may wish to read it again.

tintingz:

There's also possibility the universe is infinite.

That possibility doesn't solve anything! If it is proven that the universe is infinite, then what caused life?! And for what purpose?!

tintingz:

Lol, evidence is base on beliefs? Sino oooo!

If evidence is base on beliefs, then I believe Santa Claus exist, I believe Leprechauns exist, I believe tooth fairy exist, I believe Vampires exist, I believe there's a white dragon and unicorn above the sky, because I've evidence base on my beliefs.

You think I don't believe in nothing, I believe in those existing creatures above.

You can't keep on being evasive, bring your superior argument and evidences, whereas, I being a believer in God, my evidences are substantive, for I have the Qur'an, where God says He is the Creator of the whole universe and all that is in it (for clarification, this is my evidence based on my beliefs)...If you have such evidences for whatever you claim to believe, produce them, if not, you should stop using this argument, you always come up sounding unintelligent!

tintingz:

You're confusing yourself.

Worshiping God is meaningless.

Present intelligent counter arguments, prove that you do have something reasonable to show you are convinced of your perceptions of reality, that you are better informed regarding your lack of faith!

tintingz:

Lmao, how does empathy has to do entertainment?

Empathy has nothing to do with your worshiping your God five times daily, empathy is having human values.

We have some muslims worshiping God five times daily but still go out killing and bombing people.

You should always pay attention to your own post that I am responding to, go back and read, then you would see the correlation...

Muslims who kill for no just cause are going to be punished, both in this life and the next, but according to your world-view, if you can get away with any crime, then there is no reason stopping you from doing the crime, and you can even convince yourself that what you have done is good, because you have no standard for what is good or bad, just what your feelings suggests to you, and I'll show this to be true for you subsequently...

tintingz:

Lol, who told you I'm not into business of entertainment? What a Fallacy.

So assuming I'm not into it, I can't start tomorrow?

People find happiness in different things, sport, movies, superheroes, music, praying, fasting, partying, reading etc, but that happiness shouldn't be harmful to another.

You're the one that need to sink this into your skull.

, Yeah, you would become a believer tomorrow, or no! Your happiness is, in fact, in religion and believing in God?! Please think properly before you give yourself another excuse why you always talk about this "imaginary" God!

tintingz:

For a God to claim to be all powerful and all good but can't wipe out the evil Satan he created from existence and only send guidance shows he's not capable, this leads to a paradox.

I have told you to use appropriate description of God according to my beliefs. This world isn't all that there is to existence, and life here is for a purpose! Without purpose, life would be meaningless! That is why I am amused at your empathy and goodness you claim, why and for what purpose?!

You should show the contradictions and how logical your claims are. If I choose not to do something in which you want, does it mean I can't do it?! When you see your fallacy (ever heard of false dichotomy?!), then you would stop all this paradox argument!

It is not enough that you can write big words, but to fully understand what it means and how to use them accordingly!

tintingz:

I didn't close my mind to all your explanation, I just fine many of them absurd.

Still arguing from ignorance, keep on with the gods of the gap argument.

Point of correction, I don't make fun of good religious people, I'm only criticizing the babaric, absurd, ridiculous practice in Religions.

That is why I am seeking your own "non-absurdic" reasoning, as well as your argument from superior knowledge! For the record, an open-minded person do not use such terms as you continually do while arguing, and an open minded person is always willing to revise his views or opinions by critically and intelligently reviewing evidences and arguments put forth.

tintingz:

Lmao, it seems you're not reading clearly between the lines.

I said morality is suppose to be objective for us to harmonize but in reality as we're now morality is subjective, look around is morality objective?

Why can't I have say in faults of someone? So if someone murdered my relative I shouldn't have a say? How do you reason and even comment?

I use to think you're this intelligent.

You say morality should be objective, how and why? You say the reality is that it is subjective, and I seek your arguments why should you fault my morality based on your subjectivity?! You believe homosexuality is moral, that is subjective to you, why should you fault me when I say it is not?!

Since you have suggested that life is all about survival, perhaps the person that murdered your relative can justify his action based on survival, perhaps they were in competition for the same goal or he just simply hate him?! Perhaps he just felt like doing so, he is attracted to killing people, he feels depressed if he doesn’t, why do you find him psychopathic, after all, his empathy doesn’t feel that his action was wrong in any way!

What I am telling you in essence is that, to base your morality on your empathy is deceitful, inadequate, and cannot achieve the so called objective morality or to even harmonize humans as you suggest!

tintingz:

In as much as there are good Muslims out there and that bolded phrase is a good one, it's a paradox when we relate it to the Islamic Sharia like beating your wife, killing apostates, killing homosexuals, stoning adulterers etc these are base on archaic practice.

The Shari'ah does not condone wife beating, apostates that are killed must have committed treasonable offenses, killing homosexuals and stoning adulterers are preventive rulings against a horrible crime capable of destroying the family system, the society and humanity! So there are no contradictions, except you are not willing to reason!

tintingz:

You know I told you empathy is also control by society and era

But you have not told me how this empathy is evolving, and why is it evolving?! Is it a biological evolution?!

If empathy is also controlled by the society, then it means it can be taught and learned, but the problem here is that the society is mostly controlled by a selected few, especially the elites, and this speaks volume of how things hitherto considered immoral are now being accepted, it therefore means, there is no evolution happening! You are just being controlled by the selected few dictating what you should consider as good and what isn't!

tintingz:

Yes.

It's likely we get there or not, this is one of the reason why country leaders come together for summit.

And here is where you agree with what I have written above, but to go further, if the world leaders make a pronouncement for an objective morality, what would be the criteria for what is morality? How would they enforce it?! Would there be consequences for going against the sets of objective morality?! If no, then why the need for such pronouncements?! Why the need for a harmonized morality system for the world?! If yes, then why are you arguing about God's standard of morality?!

tintingz:

Killing someone for no reason is something of the stone age and dark age, like I said objective morality is now playing a role in our era and it's progressing, we're now in age of enlightenment. It's a murder case when you kill someone in every nation.

The point I was trying to make is that there would be consequences for doing what is immoral! Mind you, there is always a reason for doing something of such, and selfish reasons comes tops! And because it is called stone or dark ages doesn't mean they didn't have a system of morality, you do not say what you do not know! By the way, are people not killing each other for no "reason" today?! You are yet to present what you mean by this objective morality, I'm I the source of it, from my empathy or is it from other people's empathy?! Do each individual has the same level of empathy?! Have we all evolved or is it progress to the same level of empathy?! If it is progressing, how?!

tintingz:

Imagine you find yourself attractive to your fellow gender, you were not able to control it, it's even causing you depression and one day Sharia men caught you in sexual act with a man, and you're sentence to death, how would you see this Sharia men? That's empathy.

For the record, the shari'ah is a legislation that sees life as the most sacred, it protects life as well protects the family and the society. Man is not designed to have sex with man, the shari'ah recognizes that there can be cases of mental and psychological imbalances and thus would be treated accordingly, but those who seek to corrupt the family system and the society, death sentence is therefore instituted to curb such corruption in the land!

Note, here you are portraying that empathy should only be from the individual’s point of view. We can easily use this to support whatever anyone does, and give the excuses you have just given for homosexuals, then I’ll ask, how would this define morality or to even claim objective morality?!

tintingz:

I don't have problem with your morality as long as you're not hurting anyone.

But you know you do, or why do you criticize the hijab, not listening to worldly music etc.?! How does my praying 5 times a day hurt anyone? How does my charity hurt anyone?! How does my fasting hurt anyone? How does my going for pilgrimage hurt anyone? And the most important, how does my believe in God hurt anyone?! This is my morality! You do have problems with it, and that is why you are here, criticizing my morality, nay, over 1.5 billion people’s morality!

tintingz:

Yes.

Your comments proves otherwise!

tintingz:

Mind knowing the life forms from earthquake after-effect?

New Plant Life
The MSI researchers already studied the effects of man-made intrusions on sandy beaches, such as sea walls and rocky revetments, before the earthquake hit, so they had benchmarked the condition of many beaches along the south central Chilean coast. After the devastating 2010 earthquake and tsunami, they decided to study these same beaches to measure the effects of the natural disaster. They surprisingly discovered new sand dunes dotted with plants where before no plants previously thrived.
https://sciencing .com/do-earthquakes-positively-affect-environment-8761480.html

tintingz:

Ok assuming New life form was discover from earthquake effect, so when earthquake show up again, what then will happen to the "life form"?

Another life form thrives!

tintingz:

Every life form is as a result of survival of the fittest a.k.a natural selection, natural disasters is chaotic to every living species.

I actually have empathy for animals but humans have to survive, we have to do everything to survive, even animals do same.

Meanwhile we have animal rights, who are against any form of abuse on animals.

Yeah I understand survival, but for what purpose and why?! Why do you think you need to survive when it is certain that you will die?! Why is your survival more important than that of the animals or plants?! I am not talking of animal rights, I am talking about why you considered something which is natural, and have its benefit for earth and other life forms a disaster, because it kills humans?! Are humans not supposed to die?!

tintingz:

Lol, people would only rejoice about Hitler's death not rejoice about the earthquake that killed 2 million innocent people and Children!

Hitler cannot live forever but earthquake will continue to occur as long as the Earth still stands.

You're talking as if Hitler can only be killed by earthquake.

You're not making sense.

I am sure my comparison was between an earthquake that killed a thousand and Hitler that killed 2 million innocent people and children.

If you knew this beforehand, would you not have realized a great service the earthquake had done for the world?! People die every day, we were never meant to live forever here on earth!

The sense in which you fail to grasp is the fact that, your knowledge about this life and the universe is limited, blaming God wouldn't change the way the world had been created to function, including people dying as a result of natural "disasters". They are natural disasters quite alright, but they serve a purpose! Even if it kills humans!

tintingz:

You are talk as if once you loose a job, another big job is waiting for you, there is no assurance to that.
When someone is dead in an earthquake, he/she is gone it's different to that of loosing a job which one still have hope.

Again, you miss the point of my analogy...Some people lose hope once they lose their jobs, some even commit suicide while some may become despondent perpetually depressed. Since you cannot wish away death, it is either your death would be a good thing for you, or a bad thing as the case maybe. As a Muslim, death is not final, and such death carries some benefits, so there is always something to look forward to, and your relatives have hope of meeting with you in the next life which is eternal...But since you do not believe in anything, death looks like a terrible and horrible end, there is nothing to look forward to, and there is no hope of ever seeing any of your loved ones again! Life would become meaningless! Then you look for who to blame for this hopeless and meaningless life you live!

tintingz:

Lmao, I'm good and I know I'm good because I make use of my empathy which is natural innate in me, that's sincerity.

But you are only good because a book told you so and dictate to you how to be good lol , you're good because you fear wrath of Allah, you fear going to hell forever, your goodness is base on fear not natural/empathy.

That I follow a standard set of moral conduct laid down by God doesn't mean I do not have empathy, after all, you agree it is natural, everyone has such ability or capacity to show empathy. Obviously, the opposite is also true! So if there are no consequences, if you can get away with anything you do, then why should you choose to care?! Is life not survival of the fittest?! Are you not to survive at all cost according as you have claimed above, and live your life any way you want?! So nothing stops you from being the opposite of good, for all I know, you may be telling lies that you are good, whereas, you are a cheat, and corrupt individual, after all, there are no consequences...If you are good, then you are good for your pocket, no one sure cares that you are good, so I ask again, as someone who once believed in God, and now doesn’t, why should God care that you are good?! Why should you expect any reward from God for being good?!

tintingz:
How does this work?

Someone destiny has been decree before he/she exist, what again is he/she choosing?

If you path away from the destiny that has been foreknown by Allah, is Allah still all-knowing?

I have answered this questions in so many ways already!

No matter which path you feel like choosing, there are only two consequences! Good or Bad! It is up to you to choose your end!

sino:


Okay, as I said, that is what you want to believe.

No, that's the absurdity you believe in.

Last time I checked, you do not have any superior argument as to the cause of the universe as well as any reasonable belief as to the purpose of life!

Argument from authority.

FYI, no one knows the cause of the universe or the purpose of life, some ancient archaic patriarchal men just came up with different nonsensical purpose.

Fight for God, bow five times daily, wail on the wall, clap for God, sacrifice animals for Gods and many more dogmas, and when one dies some sky daddy will reward you eternally.

When you present the proper practices of my religion and not the stereotypes and propagandas which you yourself had countered on this same platform, then I would take you seriously.

Kindly counter your immoral practice I presented in your holy book and stop dodging.

It isn't difficult to understand my post, you may wish to read it again.

Dodging!

That possibility doesn't solve anything! If it is proven that the universe is infinite, then what caused life?! And for what purpose?!

Is everything known about the universe? Why can't the universe cause life itself, must a sky father cause life?

You can't keep on being evasive, bring your superior argument and evidences, whereas, I being a believer in God, my evidences are substantive, for I have the Qur'an, where God says He is the Creator of the whole universe and all that is in it (for clarification, this is my evidence based on my beliefs)...If you have such evidences for whatever you claim to believe, produce them, if not, you should stop using this argument, you always come up sounding unintelligent!

Oga, you don't base your evidence on beliefs, it's fallacious to do so.

If evidence is base on beliefs, what then is fact?

Present intelligent counter arguments, prove that you do have something reasonable to show you are convinced of your perceptions of reality, that you are better informed regarding your lack of faith!

Faith does not prove anything!

I've presented the ominipotence paradox about your anthropomorphic God.

You should always pay attention to your own post that I am responding to, go back and read, then you would see the correlation...

What!

Muslims who kill for no just cause are going to be punished, both in this life and the next, but according to your world-view, if you can get away with any crime, then there is no reason stopping you from doing the crime, and you can even convince yourself that what you have done is good, because you have no standard for what is good or bad, just what your feelings suggests to you, and I'll show this to be true for you subsequently...

This life is not perfect, this life is not fair to us, even after you die you will still be thrown in hell by Yahweh so what then is fair? We're just making things right with our limited knowledge.

Muslims who kill like stoning adulterers, Killing apostates, killing homosexuals etc will be rewarded by Allah because Allah himself commands it but unfortunately Yahweh, Brahma, Ra, Odin is there to purnish Muslims.

What a paradox!

, Yeah, you would become a believer tomorrow, or no! Your happiness is, in fact, in religion and believing in God?! Please think properly before you give yourself another excuse why you always talk about this "imaginary" God!

Lol, my happiness is not in Religion, infact Religion is harmful to humanity.

Why I talk about religion? Is Religion not a public matter and express publicly? Are you the one to tell me what to talk about?

have told you to use appropriate description of God according to my beliefs. This world isn't all that there is to existence, and life here is for a purpose! Without purpose, life would be meaningless! That is why I am amused at your empathy and goodness you claim, why and for what purpose?!

You should show the contradictions and how logical your claims are. If I choose not to do something in which you want, does it mean I can't do it?! When you see your fallacy (ever heard of false dichotomy?!), then you would stop all this paradox argument!

It is not enough that you can write big words, but to fully understand what it means and how to use them accordingly!

With God life is meaningless, the phrase God works in mysterious ways or we can't understand God makes God more meaningless, there are many different idea of God and dogmas that conflicts, paradise is meaningless and even makes earth more meaningless, even the good deeds of unbelievers is meaningless to your God, praying five times daily is meaningless and has no meaningful impact to the society.

God and religions are meaningless and only makes people delusional.

The false dichotomy is that, believe in God and go to paradise, reject God and go to hell, is that the freewill your God is talking about?

Can't you see the paradox?

That is why I am seeking your own "non-absurdic" reasoning, as well as your argument from superior knowledge! For the record, an open-minded person do not use such terms as you continually do while arguing, and an open minded person is always willing to revise his views or opinions by critically and intelligently reviewing evidences and arguments put forth.

I find your arguments absurd, fallacious and not open minded, the moment you said you brought evidence from base on your beliefs shows you're not ready to reason.

You're arguing from ignorance.

You say morality should be objective, how and why? You say the reality is that it is subjective, and I seek your arguments why should you fault my morality based on your subjectivity?! You believe homosexuality is moral, that is subjective to you, why should you fault me when I say it is not?!

The contradiction you fail to see here is that, you believe your God is the absolute source of morality(objective), he wants everyone to follow his morality or burn in hell forever, yet you're talking about "faults"?

Where did your God find his morality to think it's good for everyone and we must obey it?

Let me ask, do you believe morality should be objective or subjective?

Since you have suggested that life is all about survival, perhaps the person that murdered your relative can justify his action based on survival, perhaps they were in competition for the same goal or he just simply hate him?! Perhaps he just felt like doing so, he is attracted to killing people, he feels depressed if he doesn’t, why do you find him psychopathic, after all, his empathy doesn’t feel that his action was wrong in any way!

There is survival instinct in human evolutionary history.

You're arguing the opposite of empathy, you can't have empathy and be killing someone, self-defense is another thing, it's only a psychopath that will kill someone for silly reasons in this era, it's a murder case.

> Empathy : the ability to understand and share the feelings of another.

What I am telling you in essence is that, to base your morality on your empathy is deceitful, inadequate, and cannot achieve the so called objective morality or to even harmonize humans as you suggest!

From your argument here, your absolute morality in the Quran is meaningless.

For the fact that slavery is universally not accepted in this era shows we're using our empathy and progressing.

Kindly go and understand what EMPATHY is before you post things out of ignorance.

The Shari'ah does not condone wife beating, apostates that are killed must have committed treasonable offenses, killing homosexuals and stoning adulterers are preventive rulings against a horrible crime capable of destroying the family system, the society and humanity! So there are no contradictions, except you are not willing to reason!

An apostate is denouncing a religion, why should anyone be killed for that? Wife beating is well recorded in the Quran, killing homosexuals shows how your God is imperfect, is killing a solution? Moreover we don't know what makes people homosexuals, it's more consider natural by scientists because there are homosexuals among animals.

Adultery is a consensual affair between two adults why should they be killed, for what silly reason?

But you have not told me how this empathy is evolving, and why is it evolving?! Is it a biological evolution?!

No, it is Quranic evolution. SMH

If empathy is also controlled by the society, then it means it can be taught and learned, but the problem here is that the society is mostly controlled by a selected few, especially the elites, and this speaks volume of how things hitherto considered immoral are now being accepted, it therefore means, there is no evolution happening! You are just being controlled by the selected few dictating what you should consider as good and what isn't!

Do you understand the evolution of human history at all?

Why is the behaviors of the troglodytes is different to our era? Why are their understanding and intellects different?

Moral codes changes, constitution changes, that's evolution!

Your Quran morality does not evolve, it is stuck in the ancient era.

And here is where you agree with what I have written above, but to go further, if the world leaders make a pronouncement for an objective morality, what would be the criteria for what is morality? How would they enforce it?! Would there be consequences for going against the sets of objective morality?! If no, then why the need for such pronouncements?! Why the need for a harmonized morality system for the world?! If yes, then why are you arguing about God's standard of morality?!

Your question is like asking why is UN created to stop world wars? Answer that and you have your answer.

The reason I'm arguing your God "standard of morality" is because it's anthropomorphic and meaningless, humans have the ability to determine what's wrong and right, many of the so called morality in the Quran is barbaric, the fact that your God is the cause of evil is immoral.

The point I was trying to make is that there would be consequences for doing what is immoral! Mind you, there is always a reason for doing something of such, and selfish reasons comes tops! And because it is called stone or dark ages doesn't mean they didn't have a system of morality, you do not say what you do not know! By the way, are people not killing each other for no "reason" today?! You are yet to present what you mean by this objective morality, I'm I the source of it, from my empathy or is it from other people's empathy?! Do each individual has the same level of empathy?! Have we all evolved or is it progress to the same level of empathy?! If it is progressing, how?!

Cant you see the paradox? The fact that your perfect God is the cause of evil shows how absurd and meaningless your God morality and judgment is. Humans are not perfect, we need to set moral codes.

For the record, the shari'ah is a legislation that sees life as the most sacred, it protects life as well protects the family and the society. Man is not designed to have sex with man, the shari'ah recognizes that there can be cases of mental and psychological imbalances and thus would be treated accordingly, but those who seek to corrupt the family system and the society, death sentence is therefore instituted to curb such corruption in the land!

What positive solution does Allah has for homosexuals since he's incapable of doing anything, any?

Note, here you are portraying that empathy should only be from the individual’s point of view. We can easily use this to support whatever anyone does, and give the excuses you have just given for homosexuals, then I’ll ask, how would this define morality or to even claim objective morality?!

Oh my gosh!

You agree empathy is innate and again contradicting yourself.

OK, how does killing homosexuals moral to you?

But you know you do, or why do you criticize the hijab, not listening to worldly music etc.?! How does my praying 5 times a day hurt anyone? How does my charity hurt anyone?! How does my fasting hurt anyone? How does my going for pilgrimage hurt anyone? And the most important, how does my believe in God hurt anyone?! This is my morality! You do have problems with it, and that is why you are here, criticizing my morality, nay, over 1.5 billion people’s morality!

This is strawman.

From our argument so far, you didn't read where I said "your happiness shouldn't hurt another"? I even gave examples. I've no problem with your morality as long it doesn't hurt or harmful to anyone, this is what I said!

Continuation...

sino:

New Plant Life
The MSI researchers already studied the effects of man-made intrusions on sandy beaches, such as sea walls and rocky revetments, before the earthquake hit, so they had benchmarked the condition of many beaches along the south central Chilean coast. After the devastating 2010 earthquake and tsunami, they decided to study these same beaches to measure the effects of the natural disaster. They surprisingly discovered new sand dunes dotted with plants where before no plants previously thrived.
https://sciencing .com/do-earthquakes-positively-affect-environment-8761480.html

This is a minuscule(tiny) issue and less importance to that of millions of people that died in earthquake.

So when earthquake happens again what then will happen to the plant, won't it destroy it? Is earthquake still not disastrous?

Another life form thrives!

And earthquake will continue destroying them.

Are these plants dead or living, can they survive on lands?, you don't know.

Lol, you talk as if new plant form is always discover every time earthquake happens, something that you posted it was discover 2010.

Yeah I understand survival, but for what purpose and why?! Why do you think you need to survive when it is certain that you will die?! Why is your survival more important than that of the animals or plants?! I am not talking of animal rights, I am talking about why you considered something which is natural, and have its benefit for earth and other life forms a disaster, because it kills humans?! Are humans not supposed to die?!

Hahahahaha, why do I think I need to survive? Did you actually ask that? Sino and pseudo-logic.

I will die one day does not mean I should be stupid. Why do you go out on daily bases to hustle, why? Why do humans need to survive to keep it existence going, why? Do anyone wish for natural disasters?

If your God is meaningful to you, why not stay at home and be worshiping your God all day and wait for manna from heaven?

FYI natural disaster is also harmful to animals and plants, what life form does it benefit?

I am sure my comparison was between an earthquake that killed a thousand and Hitler that killed 2 million innocent people and children.

Lol, so Hitler has lived long than earthquake?

If you knew this beforehand, would you not have realized a great service the earthquake had done for the world?! People die every day, we were never meant to live forever here on earth!

Is this the stupidity they teach you in your religion, that since everyone will die therefore living is meaningless, you see your paradox, why religion and God is more meaningless.

What great service has natural disaster done, are you reading yourself? You mean wiping out a community is a great service?

The sense in which you fail to grasp is the fact that, your knowledge about this life and the universe is limited, blaming God wouldn't change the way the world had been created to function, including people dying as a result of natural "disasters". They are natural disasters quite alright, but they serve a purpose! Even if it kills humans!

Lol, so a perfect God created natural disasters for what purpose again?

Assuming you're god, is natural disaster an ideal thing to do?

You see why God is meaningless?

Again, you miss the point of my analogy...Some people lose hope once they lose their jobs, some even commit suicide while some may become despondent perpetually depressed. Since you cannot wish away death, it is either your death would be a good thing for you, or a bad thing as the case maybe. As a Muslim, death is not final, and such death carries some benefits, so there is always something to look forward to, and your relatives have hope of meeting with you in the next life which is eternal...But since you do not believe in anything, death looks like a terrible and horrible end, there is nothing to look forward to, and there is no hope of ever seeing any of your loved ones again! Life would become meaningless! Then you look for who to blame for this hopeless and meaningless life you live!

You Said "some" people loose hope, so not everyone, that's because they didn't see someone to counsel them, some religious people mostly behave like hopeless people when they start blaming thier village witches or some mythical things for thier unfortunate moment, they started running around to spiritual people for solution, that's where madness start.

Your post above shows how meaningless living is, no one knows what will happen after we die, we just read Superstitious stories about afterlife and it's conflicting. Your hope is delusional and false.

And who told I don't believe in anything? Atheism simply means lack in belief in God/s, it doesn't mean I shouldn't believe in other things. I believe in the cosmos, I believe in the food I eat, I believe in my family, I believe in every living species and many more. I don't blame any BS mythical things for any so called hopeless and meaningless things. Quit stop projecting!

That I follow a standard set of moral conduct laid down by God doesn't mean I do not have empathy, after all, you agree it is natural, everyone has such ability or capacity to show empathy. Obviously, the opposite is also true! So if there are no consequences, if you can get away with anything you do, then why should you choose to care?! Is life not survival of the fittest?! Are you not to survive at all cost according as you have claimed above, and live your life any way you want?! So nothing stops you from being the opposite of good, for all I know, you may be telling lies that you are good, whereas, you are a cheat, and corrupt individual, after all, there are no consequences...[s]If you are good, then you are good for your pocket, no one sure cares that you are good,[/s] so I ask again, as someone who once believed in God, and now doesn’t, why should God care that you are good?! Why should you expect any reward from God for being good?!

Humans are not perfect, we have lay down constitutional laws for any negative actions, your God anthropomorphic law is irrelevant!

Everyone is trying to survive, that's what makes humans existence continue, our survival instinct is evolving, we're enlightening.

@bolded, I'm good and I'm not expecting any imaginary rewards from a sky master, there are people that care, appreciate and applaud my good deeds, again stop projecting.

Your God doesn't care about unbelievers being good it's meaningless to him, he only care about believing in him, what then is the purpose of being good? Well ofcos what do we expect from a God that causes evil.

Your good deeds are dictated by an ancient book, you're good because you want reward from your master in the sky, that's not sincerely good, that's greediness!

sino:

I have answered this questions in so many ways already!

No matter which path you feel like choosing, there are only two consequences! Good or Bad! It is up to you to choose your end!

We are arguing about your God being all knowing and predestined it, does your God foreknows(before I exist) I will take a wrong path today, if yes, where's the freewill and if no, how come destiny exist and God knows all?

If your God only works with consequences, then he doesn't know all(beginning to end) and no predestination, he only waits for an action to be done before knowing.

sino:


Okay, as I said, that is what you want to believe.



Last time I checked, you do not have any superior argument as to the cause of the universe as well as any reasonable belief as to the purpose of life!



When you present the proper practices of my religion and not the stereotypes and propagandas which you yourself had countered on this same platform, then I would take you seriously.



It isn't difficult to understand my post, you may wish to read it again.



That possibility doesn't solve anything! If it is proven that the universe is infinite, then what caused life?! And for what purpose?!



You can't keep on being evasive, bring your superior argument and evidences, whereas, I being a believer in God, my evidences are substantive, for I have the Qur'an, where God says He is the Creator of the whole universe and all that is in it (for clarification, this is my evidence based on my beliefs)...If you have such evidences for whatever you claim to believe, produce them, if not, you should stop using this argument, you always come up sounding unintelligent!



Present intelligent counter arguments, prove that you do have something reasonable to show you are convinced of your perceptions of reality, that you are better informed regarding your lack of faith!



You should always pay attention to your own post that I am responding to, go back and read, then you would see the correlation...

Muslims who kill for no just cause are going to be punished, both in this life and the next, but according to your world-view, if you can get away with any crime, then there is no reason stopping you from doing the crime, and you can even convince yourself that what you have done is good, because you have no standard for what is good or bad, just what your feelings suggests to you, and I'll show this to be true for you subsequently...



, Yeah, you would become a believer tomorrow, or no! Your happiness is, in fact, in religion and believing in God?! Please think properly before you give yourself another excuse why you always talk about this "imaginary" God!



I have told you to use appropriate description of God according to my beliefs. This world isn't all that there is to existence, and life here is for a purpose! Without purpose, life would be meaningless! That is why I am amused at your empathy and goodness you claim, why and for what purpose?!

You should show the contradictions and how logical your claims are. If I choose not to do something in which you want, does it mean I can't do it?! When you see your fallacy (ever heard of false dichotomy?!), then you would stop all this paradox argument!

It is not enough that you can write big words, but to fully understand what it means and how to use them accordingly!



That is why I am seeking your own "non-absurdic" reasoning, as well as your argument from superior knowledge! For the record, an open-minded person do not use such terms as you continually do while arguing, and an open minded person is always willing to revise his views or opinions by critically and intelligently reviewing evidences and arguments put forth.



You say morality should be objective, how and why? You say the reality is that it is subjective, and I seek your arguments why should you fault my morality based on your subjectivity?! You believe homosexuality is moral, that is subjective to you, why should you fault me when I say it is not?!

Since you have suggested that life is all about survival, perhaps the person that murdered your relative can justify his action based on survival, perhaps they were in competition for the same goal or he just simply hate him?! Perhaps he just felt like doing so, he is attracted to killing people, he feels depressed if he doesn’t, why do you find him psychopathic, after all, his empathy doesn’t feel that his action was wrong in any way!

What I am telling you in essence is that, to base your morality on your empathy is deceitful, inadequate, and cannot achieve the so called objective morality or to even harmonize humans as you suggest!




The Shari'ah does not condone wife beating, apostates that are killed must have committed treasonable offenses, killing homosexuals and stoning adulterers are preventive rulings against a horrible crime capable of destroying the family system, the society and humanity! So there are no contradictions, except you are not willing to reason!



But you have not told me how this empathy is evolving, and why is it evolving?! Is it a biological evolution?!

If empathy is also controlled by the society, then it means it can be taught and learned, but the problem here is that the society is mostly controlled by a selected few, especially the elites, and this speaks volume of how things hitherto considered immoral are now being accepted, it therefore means, there is no evolution happening! You are just being controlled by the selected few dictating what you should consider as good and what isn't!



And here is where you agree with what I have written above, but to go further, if the world leaders make a pronouncement for an objective morality, what would be the criteria for what is morality? How would they enforce it?! Would there be consequences for going against the sets of objective morality?! If no, then why the need for such pronouncements?! Why the need for a harmonized morality system for the world?! If yes, then why are you arguing about God's standard of morality?!



The point I was trying to make is that there would be consequences for doing what is immoral! Mind you, there is always a reason for doing something of such, and selfish reasons comes tops! And because it is called stone or dark ages doesn't mean they didn't have a system of morality, you do not say what you do not know! By the way, are people not killing each other for no "reason" today?! You are yet to present what you mean by this objective morality, I'm I the source of it, from my empathy or is it from other people's empathy?! Do each individual has the same level of empathy?! Have we all evolved or is it progress to the same level of empathy?! If it is progressing, how?!



For the record, the shari'ah is a legislation that sees life as the most sacred, it protects life as well protects the family and the society. Man is not designed to have sex with man, the shari'ah recognizes that there can be cases of mental and psychological imbalances and thus would be treated accordingly, but those who seek to corrupt the family system and the society, death sentence is therefore instituted to curb such corruption in the land!

Note, here you are portraying that empathy should only be from the individual’s point of view. We can easily use this to support whatever anyone does, and give the excuses you have just given for homosexuals, then I’ll ask, how would this define morality or to even claim objective morality?!



But you know you do, or why do you criticize the hijab, not listening to worldly music etc.?! How does my praying 5 times a day hurt anyone? How does my charity hurt anyone?! How does my fasting hurt anyone? How does my going for pilgrimage hurt anyone? And the most important, how does my believe in God hurt anyone?! This is my morality! You do have problems with it, and that is why you are here, criticizing my morality, nay, over 1.5 billion people’s morality!


Your comments proves otherwise!



New Plant Life
The MSI researchers already studied the effects of man-made intrusions on sandy beaches, such as sea walls and rocky revetments, before the earthquake hit, so they had benchmarked the condition of many beaches along the south central Chilean coast. After the devastating 2010 earthquake and tsunami, they decided to study these same beaches to measure the effects of the natural disaster. They surprisingly discovered new sand dunes dotted with plants where before no plants previously thrived.
https://sciencing .com/do-earthquakes-positively-affect-environment-8761480.html



Another life form thrives!



Yeah I understand survival, but for what purpose and why?! Why do you think you need to survive when it is certain that you will die?! Why is your survival more important than that of the animals or plants?! I am not talking of animal rights, I am talking about why you considered something which is natural, and have its benefit for earth and other life forms a disaster, because it kills humans?! Are humans not supposed to die?!



I am sure my comparison was between an earthquake that killed a thousand and Hitler that killed 2 million innocent people and children.

If you knew this beforehand, would you not have realized a great service the earthquake had done for the world?! People die every day, we were never meant to live forever here on earth!

The sense in which you fail to grasp is the fact that, your knowledge about this life and the universe is limited, blaming God wouldn't change the way the world had been created to function, including people dying as a result of natural "disasters". They are natural disasters quite alright, but they serve a purpose! Even if it kills humans!



Again, you miss the point of my analogy...Some people lose hope once they lose their jobs, some even commit suicide while some may become despondent perpetually depressed. Since you cannot wish away death, it is either your death would be a good thing for you, or a bad thing as the case maybe. As a Muslim, death is not final, and such death carries some benefits, so there is always something to look forward to, and your relatives have hope of meeting with you in the next life which is eternal...But since you do not believe in anything, death looks like a terrible and horrible end, there is nothing to look forward to, and there is no hope of ever seeing any of your loved ones again! Life would become meaningless! Then you look for who to blame for this hopeless and meaningless life you live!



That I follow a standard set of moral conduct laid down by God doesn't mean I do not have empathy, after all, you agree it is natural, everyone has such ability or capacity to show empathy. Obviously, the opposite is also true! So if there are no consequences, if you can get away with anything you do, then why should you choose to care?! Is life not survival of the fittest?! Are you not to survive at all cost according as you have claimed above, and live your life any way you want?! So nothing stops you from being the opposite of good, for all I know, you may be telling lies that you are good, whereas, you are a cheat, and corrupt individual, after all, there are no consequences...If you are good, then you are good for your pocket, no one sure cares that you are good, so I ask again, as someone who once believed in God, and now doesn’t, why should God care that you are good?! Why should you expect any reward from God for being good?!

Assalamu aleikum,

Long time bros....

tbaba1234:


Assalamu aleikum,

Long time bros....

Wa alaykum Salam bro, yes o, and seriously, I do miss your insightful topics and contributions on this section o! You have defected fully to the sports section

sino:


Wa alaykum Salam bro, yes o, and seriously, I do miss your insightful topics and contributions on this section o! You have defected fully to the sports section

The standard of contribution on the Islamic section has dropped.

tbaba1234:


The standard of contribution on the Islamic section has dropped.

Unfortunately, you are right! And I do think it is general too, it really speaks volume of the quality of youths we have in this country! May Allah assist us.

@tintingz,

You have had many brothers here being concerned about you, what must have happened, what caused your disbelieve in Allah (SWT) and up till this thread, you haven't been coherent, your logic is all over the place, you can't answer questions posed to you in order to establish your convictions, you rather resort to mockery and ridicule. This portrays you in a very bad light. It is an open secret that your best answer to the cause and purpose of the universe and life is "I don't know" (You may wish to change the pronoun as you want), and that isn't a good point to argue from, one thing which "I don't know" should teach you is to be humble, quiet, open-minded and ready to learn! I have not seen a student in class, after not being capable to answer a question, starts to argue with another student who has been able to provide an answer. If the answer is not convincing to you, do you have a better one?!

Now, a good example of your incoherence and poor logic is the issue of empathy. You claimed empathy is responsible for morality, it is innate albeit subjective, you claimed that objective morality is what should be ideal, and I asked how would this be achieved knowing fully well that this empathy, as you claimed, is under the control of society. You gave me the UN as the answer, does this show you have a clue of what you are talking about?!

Again, still on empathy, I asked since it is still subjective, why should you fault anyone, since you have already made a case for homos, who is attracted to homosexuality, and I used your logic to also make a case for a murderer etc. But instead of answering this, you started defining empathy, hello! is empathy not responsible for morality again?! Okay, the murderer lacks empathy, Why? Is it not innate?! What happened to the society's control?! What I want you to tell me is what is the consequences of doing things with lack of empathy, if I can always get away with it?! Is it possible for someone with empathy to act otherwise?!

Again, you based the shari'ah law on the subjective view of the homosexual, if we are to do this for all actions, we are only going to be following our desires, each individual would look at every action done to him with this subjectiveness, and there wouldn't be anything as morality talk more of objective morality! A student would look at the teacher as being immoral for failing him, regardless of what he had done! So how do you apply your empathy when you have limited it to yourself?!

Mind you, because I know you never reasoned my post with regards to Shari'ah law, I gave the adverse consequences of homosexuality to the family system and even humanity! I told you that since homosexuality isn't in the way we are designed to function, a true case of mental/psychological issue would be treated accordingly, but of course, that is not what you want to hear.

"From the standpoints of individual health, public health and social order, participating in homosexual activity could be viewed as dangerous to society and incompatible with full health." https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2762461

There are many studies that shows the above as well, and like I said, in Islam, death penalty is a preventive measure, it wasn't instituted to celebrate destroying lives, for the law was instituted to protect life, not only yours, but everyone, and also the family, hence the society and humanity in general, and it is never the responsibility of an individual, rather it is the responsibility of the State!

The fact is that you do not actually understand Islam and what it represents, you are not open-minded enough to accept reasons other than what you already believe and continuously want to believe about God/Islam! You are here just to make fun of God, Islam and Muslims as well as other religions, you do not have anything better to offer anyone here, you obviously do not have any sense of morality to know that you do not go to people's house and start insulting the occupants without any tangible reason or worse, because you feel you can!

Do not for a second think my responses are meant for you to believe in God, it is, after all, you choice! Islam does not force belief on anyone!