Akin1212:



Very very ridiculous, I don't really know why they are very dishonest about this.

Me sef no know ooo.

# Destiny - the events that will necessarily happen to a particular person or thing in the future.

the hidden power believed to control future events; fate.


# Freewill - the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion.

My brother how these two definitions work together still baffles me.

tintingz:
Me sef no know ooo.

# Destiny - the events that will necessarily happen to a particular person or thing in the future.

the hidden power believed to control future events; fate.


# Freewill - the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion.

My brother how this two definition work together still baffles me.

It doesn't and can't work together. Those people are not just honest with themselves. They have put their intelligence in question sef. That was why I saluted you, because despite showing them or proving it to them, since they are not honest, they wont want to bow to your positions.

A God that is omniscient and omnipotent must be a wicked God. A God who is not wicked wont be omnipotent and omniscient. Because he would be in Yemen now, helping or preventing further famine, he would have prevented the ebola outbreak in Congo last year, many things wouldnt have happened at all.

But then, we are just atheists, we are lost

Akin1212:


Lol. You still dont get it, do you?

The argument is to ascertain the omniscient "all knowing" nature of your imaginary friend, God.

Your analogy of the professor does not apply, except if God is as limited as the professor.

A professor knows that students will may pass or fail an exam, but he does not know which one. While a God would already know which one would fail an exam even before the student was born.

A professor is not all knowing, a God is all knowing.

Even if a professor now sees a student writing nonsense, he still does not have the power to stop the student from writing nonsense, because he is not omnipotent, "all powerful." A God can stop a student or anyone from failing in life because he is omnipotent.

On that premise alone, your analogy is illogical and faulty. Its very simple Mr sino. Just be honest with yourself. The argument is based on the omnipotence and omniscient nature of God, of which only the concept of God can attain that level. Nobody else can, not even a professor. No analogy can save you from this, just argue the matter and dont bring strawman arguments, be honest.

I see the problem here, if I make an analogy of the brain with a computer processor, according to you, it must be illogical, cos the brain is not limited by availability of electricity, while the processor is! Please learn the application of analogy and stop all these your gaffes! It is grotesque!

The prof even though not all knowing, or all powerful, knows that you writing nonsense is failure, and while seeing the nonsense, actually has the power (as the course convener and examiner) to stop you and even give you the right answers, I guess that is what you want?!

Must all powerful God mean that God must do whatever you want whenever you want it?! What sort of skewed logic is that?! Are you supposed to dictate to God on how God should be and carry out divine activities?!

God, the all knowing, knows your end, and this end is based on your own choices! God gave you the opportunity to choose your own end! Except you want to tell me you aren't conscious of your own choices and decisions, then you may have a point.

Akin1212:


It doesn't and can't work together. Those people are not just honest with themselves. They have put their intelligence in question sef. That was why I saluted you, because despite showing them or proving it to them, since they are not honest, they wont want to bow to your positions.

A God that is omniscient and omnipotent must be a wicked God. A God who is not wicked wont be omnipotent and omniscient. Because he would be in Yemen now, helping or preventing further famine, he would have prevented the ebola outbreak in Congo last year, many things wouldnt have happened at all.

But then, we are just atheists, we are lost

Lol, we're lost.

God work in mysterious ways, meaning: God work in meaningless, unreasonable ways.

tintingz:
Me sef no know ooo.

# Destiny - the events that will necessarily happen to a particular person or thing in the future.

the hidden power believed to control future events; fate.


# Freewill - the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion.

My brother how these two definitions work together still baffles me.

Let me help you, your freewill determines your destiny! It is quite simple! If you want further explanations, you may politely ask, and I shall oblige accordingly.

sino:

Let me help you, your freewill determines your destiny! It is quite simple! If you want further explanations, you may politely ask, and I shall oblige accordingly.

Please explain.

tintingz:
Please explain.

Very well, from your definitions, destiny has to do with the future, or your fate, it is unknown to you, hidden, while your freewill is your ability to make your own choices based on your own discretions. Your conscious efforts in your decisions or choices shapes your future, a student consciously neglecting his studies is definitely creating a destiny of failure! There are no hanky-panky in this. You can't blame destiny which is unknown to you for not taking your studies seriously!

God being the all knowing, knows the future, all outcomes of your choices and decisions, for the fact that God had given you that ability to make conscious choices, then you alone is responsible for them! Hence, you either acknowledge your responsibilities or you can be in continous denial...

sino:


I see the problem here, if I make an analogy of the brain with a computer processor, according to you, it must be illogical, cos the brain is not limited by availability of electricity, while the processor is! Please learn the application of analogy and stop all these your gaffes! It is grotesque!

Yes, it will be illogical if the argument tends toward the availability electricity of as a source of energy for the processor and no other source. An analogy must have an analogue in all respect. That's why it's an analogy ffs.

But then the brain has it's own source of energy and so does the computer processor. So it depends on what you're defending and the application.

It is obvious that the professor is not a creator of the student or what he knows, neither does he have power to change anything or know everything about the student. It betrays the focus of this particular argument and it doesn't apply.

I believe that advice is for you. Please learn how to apply analogy.

sino:


The prof even though not all knowing, or all powerful, knows that you writing nonsense is failure, and while seeing the nonsense, actually has the power (as the course convener and examiner) to stop you and even give you the right answers, I guess that is what you want?!

The prof only knows that IF I write nonsense I will fail, and if I dont write nonsense I will pass. He doesn't know whether I will definitely write nonsense or not before the exam. That's what we are talking about here. God either knew definitely that Adam and Eve would eat from the tree anyway, or he didnt know they would eat. Any one it is, it always faults the concept of A God.

If he knew they were going to eat it no matter what, that would make him omniscient, "all knowing" and wicked, because he knew what would happen will cause problems but he allowed it. And hence there's no freewill, because they only acted according to his plans.

But if he didnt know they were going to decide to eat from the tree, then he is not omniscient, because he didn't know they would decide to eat from the tree.

sino:


Must all powerful God mean that God must do whatever you want whenever you want it?! What sort of skewed logic is that?! Are you supposed to dictate to God on how God should be and carry out divine activities?!

No it doesn't, the only problem is when you people define God, you don't leave it with any blemish. Give me a break please. An omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient and omnibenevolent God would not even let ebola outbreak kill hundreds in Congo, he would not let famine kill children in Yemen.

That's why the simple philosophy of epicurus is valid until today.
Is God willing to stop evil but not able, Why call him omnipotent?
Is he able but not willing, Why is he omnibenevolent?
Is he both able and willing, Then why is there evil?
Is he neither able or willing, Then why call him God?
If a God exists, then we wouldn't be here discussing this.

sino:


God, the all knowing, knows your end, and this end is based on your own choices! God gave you the opportunity to choose your own end! Except you want to tell me you aren't conscious of your own choices and decisions, then you may have a point.

If God the all knowing knows my end is destruction, but still went ahead to create me, then he is malevolent and he derives joy in seeing me being destroyed making him not all loving. And he can't do anything about it which makes him powerless, so he is not all powerful in the end. Thanks!

tintingz:
Are we reincarnating or go to heaven after we die?

Which one should I believe in?

If the ultimate spiritual goal of man is liberation from reincarnation or cycle of death and rebirth, what does that tell you?

Akin1212:


If God the all knowing knows my end is destruction, but still went ahead to create me, then he is malevolent and he derives joy in seeing me being destroyed making him not all loving. And he can't do anything about it which makes him powerless, so he is not all powerful in the end. Thanks!

If God knows your end is destruction and gIves you a path to salvation, how is God at fault here?

sino:

Very well, from your definitions, destiny has to do with the future, or your fate, it is unknown to you, hidden, while your freewill is your ability to make your own choices based on your own discretions. Your conscious efforts in your decisions or choices shapes your future, a student consciously neglecting his studies is definitely creating a destiny of failure! There are no hanky-panky in this. You can't blame destiny which is unknown to you for not taking your studies seriously!

God being the all knowing, knows the future, all outcomes of your choices and decisions, for the fact that God had given you that ability to make conscious choices, then you alone is responsible for them! Hence, you either acknowledge your responsibilities or you can be in continous denial...

You explaination is faulty.

Destiny is future events which will necessarily happen(fate) and according to the second definition it's controlled by hidden power which I assume to be God.

The moment one is born his/her destiny exist with it, every actions, choices, events have been destined already even before the baby is born, it is like a program, you can't do anything outside this destiny/program. The time you will eat, sleep, bath, make decisions etc has been destined, some higher imaginary being in the sky 100% know this and has written it down.

Now can freewill work here?

Freewill, you act without constraint of necessity and fate, your decisions are your decisions, no one knows your future, no hidden power control it. You can change your choice any time any day. Things just happen by experience or so.

A student that doesn't study has high chances of failing, was it destined for him that at a particular period he's going to be unserious with his studies and fail or he's simply making his choices without no constraint of future fate or hidden power.

The moment someone can 100% certainly know or tell all your choices and actions beforehand the moment your freewill is hijacked, such person can write every action you will make long before you do them, you can't escape it, you feel controlled or bound to it.

It is either destiny is an illusion or freewill is an illusion, putting both together is conflicting.

aadoiza:


If God knows your end is destruction and gIves you a path to salvation, how is God at fault here?

You still dont understand it.

If God offers me a path to salvation, then he does not know my end.

A God who knows my end and offers me salvation would be deceiving itself.

Akin1212:


You still dont understand it.

If God offers me a path to salvation, then he does not know my end.

A God who knows my end and offers me salvation would be deceiving itself.

It doesn't work like that. You have got to take the path to salvation he's offered you then leave everything else to him.

I watched a movie, Supernatural tv series(Sam and Dean). A prophet has written every single action of these two characters in a book like novel and published it, they bought the book and Dean was reading it.

The dude felt pissed like he's not in control of himself.

Here are some of the scenes.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSfO8fJQrVA


They met the prophet who think he's God or later he's God.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtETl-FyOAM


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2MZR0AU3nI


Akin1212, do you watch Supernatural series, watch these scenes and see.

aadoiza:

If the ultimate spiritual goal of man is liberation from reincarnation or cycle of death and rebirth, what does that tell you?

Why not tell me what it tells you.

tintingz:
Why not tell me what it tells you.

For you to have brought in reincarnation into this discussion means you'd have known a bit about it, just as I do.

Akin1212:


Yes, it will be illogical if the argument tends toward the availability electricity of as a source of energy for the processor and no other source. An analogy must have an analogue in all respect. That's why it's an analogy ffs.

But then the brain has it's own source of energy and so does the computer processor. So it depends on what you're defending and the application.

It is obvious that the professor is not a creator of the student or what he knows, neither does he have power to change anything or know everything about the student. It betrays the focus of this particular argument and it doesn't apply.

I believe that advice is for you. Please learn how to apply analogy.

I was very specific about the aspects of the Prof. and student analogy, but since it would expose your line of questioning as being redundant, you then go on a tangent bringing up irrelevant information.

You wrote above that my analogy with regards to the brain and computer depends on what I am defending and the application, I'll say, my analogy depends on what I am explaining and the specifics of the aspects I am using! It is not important that what I am using as an analogy is quite different in terms of characteristics and even more from what I want to explain, but rather what is important is that there can be a resemblance between them...

Akin1212:

The prof only knows that IF I write nonsense I will fail, and if I dont write nonsense I will pass. He doesn't know whether I will definitely write nonsense or not before the exam. That's what we are talking about here. God either knew definitely that Adam and Eve would eat from the tree anyway, or he didnt know they would eat. Any one it is, it always faults the concept of A God.

If he knew they were going to eat it no matter what, that would make him omniscient, "all knowing" and wicked, because he knew what would happen will cause problems but he allowed it. And hence there's no freewill, because they only acted according to his plans.

But if he didnt know they were going to decide to eat from the tree, then he is not omniscient, because he didn't know they would decide to eat from the tree.

The Prof saw you writing nonsense is what I am talking about, and definitely knows that you will fail! It is your choice to write nonsense, and you failing is the consequences of your own action!

God knowing that Adam and Eve would eat the fruit doesn't precludes the fact that it was a decision and an act they did on their own after being advised to contrary. It doesn't take away anything from God, cos he gave them the ability to make choices in the first place! They could have easily avoided the fruit, but they didn't, and no where is it written that God made them eat the fruit! By the way, they accepted responsibility for their actions/disobedience and made amendments. But you are looking for who to blame, and I just hope this is not your reality in the real world!

I have already made my point clear about the limitations of the possible outcomes of an event as well as an action humans can make at any given time! Having these knowledge doesn't mean that you don't have a choice, but it seems to you guys that is impossible, but the reality is that it is very possible! No one is forcing you to do anything you don't want to do na!

Akin1212:

No it doesn't, the only problem is when you people define God, you don't leave it with any blemish. Give me a break please. An omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient and omnibenevolent God would not even let ebola outbreak kill hundreds in Congo, he would not let famine kill children in Yemen.

That's why the simple philosophy of epicurus is valid until today.
Is God willing to stop evil but not able, Why call him omnipotent?
Is he able but not willing, Why is he omnibenevolent?
Is he both able and willing, Then why is there evil?
Is he neither able or willing, Then why call him God?
If a God exists, then we wouldn't be here discussing this.

This is flawed reasoning, it focuses on the negatives and amplify it as if that is the whole story, but there is more to these occurences than just the death and the chaos! Until you have a say on how the world functions, I believe this issue is way beyond your pay grade!

Akin1212:


If God the all knowing knows my end is destruction, but still went ahead to create me, then he is malevolent and he derives joy in seeing me being destroyed making him not all loving. And he can't do anything about it which makes him powerless, so he is not all powerful in the end. Thanks!

But God didn't create you to destroy you, he created you to worship him. But God knows that due to the freedom given to you to make your own decisions, you can deny him, and choose a wrong path, still, God sent guidance, but you have rejected them all, you are proud of your choices, you even make mockery of God, in all honesty, if you continue like this till your death, do you think you deserve a reward for your own actions from this God?

aadoiza:

It doesn't work like that. You have got to take the path to salvation he's offered you then leave everything else to him.

Then he does not know my end. You don't get it? If I get saved then my end is not destruction.

If my end is destruction, then no matter what is offered, the destruction will still take place. That's how it works.

Sino,

You're confusing your explanation to determinism.

Destiny on the other hand can be a cognitive bias thing, anyone can make a claim this event will happen without no evidence of connection or causality, it's like a post hoc fallacy.

tintingz:
You explaination is faulty.

Destiny is future events which will necessarily happen(fate) and according to the second definition it's controlled by hidden power which I assume to be God.

The moment one is born his/her destiny exist with it, every actions, choices, events have been destined already even before the baby is born, it is like a program, you can't do anything outside this destiny/program. The time you will eat, sleep, bath, make decisions etc has been destined, some higher imaginary being in the sky 100% know this and has written it down.

Now can freewill work here?

Freewill, you act without constraint of necessity and fate, your decisions are your decisions, no one knows your future, no hidden power control it. You can change your choice any time any day. Things just happen by experience or so.

A student that doesn't study has high chances of failing, was it destined for him that at a particular period he's going to be unserious with his studies and fail or he's simply making his choices without no constraint of future fate or hidden power.

The moment someone can 100% certainly know or tell all your choices and actions beforehand the moment your freewill is hijacked, such person can write every action you will make long before you do them, you can't escape it, you feel controlled or bound to it.

It is either destiny is an illusion or freewill is an illusion, putting both together is conflicting.

The question is, do you know your destiny? If it is hidden, but you sure know you are free to make your own choices, how does that contradict or conflict with your destiny which you do not know?!

I have asked you a couple of times, do you feel you are being forced to make your choices?! Are your choices made consciously?! Someone having knowledge of all your possible actions and choices, doesn't take away your ability to choose! That someone is not choosing for you, you are making choices for yourself on a daily basis!

Except you know the future, your destiny would be dependent on your own actions and choices.

aadoiza:

For you to have brought in reincarnation into this discussion means you'd have known a bit about it, just as I do.

Reincarnation and heaven are belief system.

Tell me which one I should believe in and why I shouldn't in the other one.

tintingz:
Reincarnation and heaven are belief system.

Tell me which one I should believe in and why I shouldn't in the other one.

Ok, then. You can read up on reincarnation and see if it makes more sense to you than heaven. Everything you do is still to your freewill.

sino:

The question is, do you know your destiny? If it is hidden, but you sure know you are free to make your own choices, how does that contradict or conflict with your destiny which you do not know?!

I have asked you a couple of times, do you feel you are being forced to make your choices?! Are your choices made consciously?! Someone having knowledge of all your possible actions and choices, doesn't take away your ability to choose! That someone is not choosing for you, you are making choices for yourself on a daily basis!

Except you know the future, your destiny would be dependent on your own actions and choices.

Destiny doesn't have any proof, it's a cognitive bias thing, a desire anybody can make up.

I don't know my destiny does not mean I'm destined, it does not mean an event is destined, it is just a fantasy people make up.

All these things are just ideas humans make up.

Someone having knowledge of my choices has bound my choices, if your choice is that you will buy orange instead of apple, and I have the power to know this beforehand, I can simply tell you you're going to pick orange over apple, no matter your choices and consciousness you will pick orange, you have no control over your destiny, it's programmed.

tintingz:
Sino,

You're confusing your explanation to determinism.

Destiny on the other hand can be a cognitive bias thing, anyone can make a claim this event will happen without no evidence of connection or causality, it's like a post hoc fallacy.

I used the definition you posted accordingly, but regardless, when it comes to what Islam teaches about destiny or divine decree, it absolutely doesn't conflict with the freewill given to man. There are some things we cannot escape in this world, no matter how we try, here your freewill is expressed through your response or reactions to this, while some things are as a direct consequences of our activities, thus, we could have easily avoided them if they were bad by making right choices initially, and even if we had made wrong choices, we still have the opportunity to make corrections by acknowledging our mistakes and moving on to making better choices.

All in all, Islam does not teach that man cannot make his own choices and decisions, rather Islam teaches that man is responsible for whatever he labours for and ultimately his end.

Akin1212:


Then he does not know my end. You don't get it? If I get saved then my end is not destruction.

If my end is destruction, then no matter what is offered, the destruction will still take place. That's how it works.

It's not like that, Akin. God knows your freewill would lead you astray and out of love he offered you a better path, the right path.

aadoiza:

Ok, then. You can read up on reincarnation and see if it makes more sense to you than heaven. Everything you do is still to your freewill.

Tell me how heaven make sense?

tintingz:
Tell me how heaven make sense?

Tintingz, your Wahala too much. How do I do that? You don't believe in the unseen and the unseen cannot be proven physically.

sino:


I used the definition you posted accordingly, but regardless, when it comes to what Islam teaches about destiny or divine decree, it absolutely doesn't conflict with the freewill given to man. There are some things we cannot escape in this world, no matter how we try, here your freewill is expressed through your response or reactions to this, while some things are as a direct consequences of our activities, thus, we could have easily avoided them if they were bad by making right choices initially, and even if we had made wrong choices, we still have the opportunity to make corrections by acknowledging our mistakes and moving on to making better choices.

All in all, Islam does not teach that man cannot make his own choices and decisions, rather Islam teaches that man is responsible for whatever he labours for and ultimately his end.

Destiny according to definition is an event or fate that will necessarily happen in the future and controlled by some hidden power.

While Freewill is the opposite which said the power of acting without constraint of necessity and fate.

Wether you will make good decisions or wrong decisions, wether you will change or not have been destined, you're just following what destiny has bound to you.

Able to make choices is not the problem, able to make choices which has already been destined is the problem.

Understand the argument.

If you make a choice or action and claim the outcome is your destiny, that's cognitive bias, a fantasy you made up. Determinism is best definition to this.

aadoiza:

Tintingz, your Wahala too much. How do I do that? You don't believe in the unseen and the unseen cannot be proven physically.

Then why do you believe in heaven when you yourself cannot prove it? Is it something you're sure it exist?

I'm still waiting why you think heaven make sense than reincarnation.

aadoiza:

It's not like that, Akin. God knows your freewill would lead you astray and out of love he offered you a better path, the right path.

God knows my freewill will lead me astray, did I ask for it?

Out of love he wants to play humans like hungers game.

If God knew before creation humans will err and the consequences is a cruel unlimited punishment which he hate and doesn't want, a loving good God shouldn't allow anything that will make humans go astray exist no matter what.

It seems God is bored and confused, he WANT humans to be good and be in paradise yet he put that silly meaningless tree for whatever meaningless reasons. It seems God like the smell of suya, how hell fire exist still baffles me.

Maybe God cannot carry the heavy stone he created or he's just malevolent.

sino:


I was very specific about the aspects of the Prof. and student analogy, but since it would expose your line of questioning as being redundant, you then go on a tangent bringing up irrelevant information.

You wrote above that my analogy with regards to the brain and computer depends on what I am defending and the application, I'll say, my analogy depends on what I am explaining and the specifics of the aspects I am using! It is not important that what I am using as an analogy is quite different in terms of characteristics and even more from what I want to explain, but rather what is important is that there can be a resemblance between them...

The matter at hand is investigating the omnipotent and omniscient nature of God. Bringing in analogy of a prof who is neither omnipotent nor omniscient begs the question, what are you doing dude? How would you even bring in such analogy when the prof cannot be be all knowing nor all powerful? You went off point.

The specifics of the aspect you were explaining was not addressing the functions of an omnipotent and omniscient God.

sino:


The Prof saw you writing nonsense is what I am talking about, and definitely knows that you will fail! It is your choice to write nonsense, and you failing is the consequences of your own action!

Even if the prof bumped on me writing nonsense, he would be shocked and feel sorry for me. He does not have the power to stop me from writing nonsense. An omnipotent and omnibenevolent God would be able to do that. That's where your analogy fails to apply.

A God also would have created me and given me the power to make the choices. He knew I was going to make the choices at some point. It had all been written down. But a prof didn't know I was going to make the choices to fail, he only bumped on me writing nonsense. Please throw away this analogy. Let's face the issue squarely.

sino:


God knowing that Adam and Eve would eat the fruit doesn't precludes the fact that it was a decision and an act they did on their own after being advised to contrary. It doesn't take away anything from God, cos he gave them the ability to make choices in the first place! They could have easily avoided the fruit, but they didn't, and no where is it written that God made them eat the fruit! By the way, they accepted responsibility for their actions/disobedience and made amendments. But you are looking for who to blame, and I just hope this is not your reality in the real world!

God knowing that Adam and Eve would eat the fruit at a particular time spells everything out. It means he knew how everything would turn out, so why blame Adam and Eve for it? Now learn how to apply analogy.

Let's say you (God) created an automobile (man) that drives itself (freewill) and you know it will break down because you put something in it that will cause the breakdown if it passes a bump (eat a particular fruit). However, you went ahead to build the bump(the fruit) and placed it close to the automobile. The automobile breaks down as you had pre-known it would, will you curse and blame the automobile? Despite that you have the power to not put what caused the breakdown initially or not create the bump that would break it, but you opted against that. Will you blame the automobile for breaking down?

If legend is true, then God is to blame, becaue he had the power to make this world what he wants it to be like but he opted for this chaos. As an omniscient being he saw everything even before he started. This couldn't have been the only option, or is it?

sino:


I have already made my point clear about the limitations of the possible outcomes of an event as well as an action humans can make at any given time! Having these knowledge doesn't mean that you don't have a choice, but it seems to you guys that is impossible, but the reality is that it is very possible! No one is forcing you to do anything you don't want to do na!

You as a typical Muslim would know about destiny. It's like the second or third big thing taught in Islam. That the rich has been destined to be rich and the poor has been destined to be poor. Is it true or not?
These choices you talk about, can they change these destinies? If I'm to take you seriously then you have to spell it out that God doesn't get it right always on destinies because our actions and choices determines our fate. Where there is fate and destiny, that had been written by God, there is no freewill. Where there is freewill given by God, there's no destiny and fate. Think about it with an open mind.

sino:


This is flawed reasoning, it focuses on the negatives and amplify it as if that is the whole story, but there is more to these occurences than just the death and the chaos! Until you have a say on how the world functions, I believe this issue is way beyond your pay grade!

A God that knew about the deaths before they happened and could stop them from happening and yet did nothing is malevolent. I have a say on how the world functions and I am gladly telling you that it functions without the input of an omnipotent, omnipresent, omnibenevolent and omniscient God. That being does not exist!

sino:


But God didn't create you to destroy you, he created you to worship him. But God knows that due to the freedom given to you to make your own decisions, you can deny him, and choose a wrong path, still, God sent guidance, but you have rejected them all, you are proud of your choices, you even make mockery of God, in all honesty, if you continue like this till your death, do you think you deserve a reward for your own actions from this God?

Yeah, God created the whole universe just to be worshipped. So much ego there.

If God, the all powerful created me to worship him, then I wouldn't be doing otherwise. That's another flaw lol.
God, however, knew I was not going to worship him before he created me, didn't he? He knew that despite the guidance he provided. The bulk of us will not take it. Then he went ahead to create hell fire for the ones who will not follow the guidance, the ones he already knew before they were born. I am categorically telling you bro, the aim of your God is to destroy, he derives joy in it.

Oh sorry, there's no God to even begin with.

Akin1212:


The matter at hand is investigating the omnipotent and omniscient nature of God. Bringing in analogy of a prof who is neither omnipotent nor omniscient begs the question, what are you doing dude? How would you even bring in such analogy when the prof cannot be be all knowing nor all powerful? You went off point.

The specifics of the aspect you were explaining was not addressing the functions of an omnipotent and omniscient God.

You need to go back to my initial post to understand the specifics, not making up your own assumptions! I didn't make unfounded claims about the Prof, but used an instance whereby the Prof who did what he ought to, and knows beforehand that indeed the student will fail! At that point also, the Prof has the power to change the situation for the student, and I asked a simple question, how would you have wanted the Prof. to stop his student from failing!

You haven't been able to tell me that the Prof doesn't have that knowledge at that point in time, or not having the power, you just want to dismiss it based on your own assumptions which are in no way reflected in my post! You should know that I am fully aware of the Prof's limitations compared to God, hence my careful presentation stating the specificities and not in the general terms of the comparison.

Akin1212:

Even if the prof bumped on me writing nonsense, he would be shocked and feel sorry for me. He does not have the power to stop me from writing nonsense. An omnipotent and omnibenevolent God would be able to do that. That's where your analogy fails to apply.

No, that is what you want to think! You want God to stop you from failing when God had already given you what you needed to pass?! Lest you confuse yourself, God is indeed Merciful, but also severe in Punishment! These are the information about God already established, you wanting to hold God responsible for your actions, is plain dishonesty! I have pointed out the mercy of God with the continuous open window for your repentance until death, but it seems that is still not good enough for you! Again, it is still your choice!

Akin1212:

A God also would have created me and given me the power to make the choices. He knew I was going to make the choices at some point. It had all been written down. But a prof didn't know I was going to make the choices to fail, he only bumped on me writing nonsense. Please throw away this analogy. Let's face the issue squarely.

But the Prof had given you all what you needed to write the correct answers in the exam, the Prof. from experience knows some students are irresponsible, and some would still fail, that you chose to be the irresponsible student isn't anyones fault but yours! Until you make a better argument, instead of looking for what I didn't state in my analogy, yep my analogy is spot on!

Akin1212:

God knowing that Adam and Eve would eat the fruit at a particular time spells everything out. It means he knew how everything would turn out, so why blame Adam and Eve for it? Now learn how to apply analogy.

Let's say you (God) created an automobile (man) that drives itself (freewill) and you know it will break down because you put something in it that will cause the breakdown if it passes a bump (eat a particular fruit). However, you went ahead to build the bump(the fruit) and placed it close to the automobile. The automobile breaks down as you had pre-known it would, will you curse and blame the automobile? Despite that you have the power to not put what caused the breakdown initially or not create the bump that would break it, but you opted against that. Will you blame the automobile for breaking down?

The question is, was the automobile fitted with information in the programming of its self-driving functionality that would enable it navigate a bump easily i.e, choose to avoid a bump?! Why would I create a self-driving car that cannot navigate through bumps and other road impediments?! Are you not capable of obeying instructions and act accordingly?!

Akin1212:

If legend is true, then God is to blame, becaue he had the power to make this world what he wants it to be like but he opted for this chaos. As an omniscient being he saw everything even before he started. This couldn't have been the only option, or is it?

Well, if you had studied the "legend" properly, you would have known that God dictates how things should be based on God's own plan which is supreme. There is wisdom and purpose, and until you can create your own universe and the rules that governs it, you can only be in perpetual denials! It doesn't change anything!

Akin1212:

You as a typical Muslim would know about destiny. It's like the second or third big thing taught in Islam. That the rich has been destined to be rich and the poor has been destined to be poor. Is it true or not?
These choices you talk about, can they change these destinies? If I'm to take you seriously then you have to spell it out that God doesn't get it right always on destinies because our actions and choices determines our fate. Where there is fate and destiny, that had been written by God, there is no freewill. Where there is freewill given by God, there's no destiny and fate. Think about it with an open mind.

Yes the rich has been destined to be rich, and the poor also, but what you do not understand is that, first until there is no other option for you (and that is, in most cases, death), then you still have the opportunity to change whatever you do not want or like about your life! In Islam, you earn what you labour for! You are responsible for your actions while putting your trust in God completely! God had stated that he wouldn't change the condition of anyone, except he/she changes his/her own mind and perspective about life! This tells me that I can't be here ranting about how God didn't make me rich when I can start showing gratitude for what I have and put in the work and activities required to change my affairs, of curse including prayers!

Akin1212:

A God that knew about the deaths before they happened and could stop them from happening and yet did nothing is malevolent. I have a say on how the world functions and I am gladly telling you that it functions without the input of an omnipotent, omnipresent, omnibenevolent and omniscient God. That being does not exist!

Okay, whatever helps you sleep better at night, just tell me what your say is in stopping natural disasters from happening, I guess it is denying God right?!

Akin1212:

Yeah, God created the whole universe just to be worshipped. So much ego there.

If God, the all powerful created me to worship him, then I wouldn't be doing otherwise. That's another flaw lol.
God, however, knew I was not going to worship him before he created me, didn't he? He knew that despite the guidance he provided. The bulk of us will not take it. Then he went ahead to create hell fire for the ones who will not follow the guidance, the ones he already knew before they were born. I am categorically telling you bro, the aim of your God is to destroy, he derives joy in it.

Oh sorry, there's no God to even begin with.

Lol, God has all the right to brag and be proud! Have you tried to imagine the vastness and complexity of the universe?! What about man and the amazing features embedded in him? You that have only studied bch for few years did not let us hear word, you never discovered anything o, you just dey read other people work ni o...

You chose not to worship God, because God had given you the freedom of will. God gave you the will to choose either to worship him or to deny him, it is not surprising to God that you chose the latter, because there are only two possibilities here...God had willed it so!

Since you believe God doesn't exist, and no one is forcing you to believe, then know that you are indeed responsible for your actions, and that is what is most important, cos at the end of the day, you have yourself to blame for any eventualities!