Salaam Alaikum.

A brother from this section made a claim Athiesm is foolishness and I'm forced to create this thread for him to explain or defend his statement.

The thread has been created as you requested, kindly explain why you think or know atheism is foolishness, please give logical reason and not cognitive bias and ad hominem fallacy. You need to first of all define atheism then proceed. Other contributors are welcome. Thank you.

Cc. Rashduct4luv

tintingz:
Salaam Alaikum.

A brother from this section made a claim Athiesm is foolishness and I'm forced to create this thread for him to explain or defend his statement.

The thread has been created as you requested, kindly explain why you think or know atheism is foolishness, please give logical reason and not cognitive bias and ad hominem fallacy. You need to first of all define atheism then proceed. Other contributors are welcome. Thank you.

Cc. Rashduct4luv

Wa alaikum salam

It is foolishness to believe everything came from nothing!

Rashduct4luv:

Wa alaikum salam

It is foolishness to believe everything came from nothing!

Is this an atheistic position?

You believe in God, where did God created everything from?

tintingz:
Is this an atheistic position?

You believe in God, where did God created everything from?

He created man from earth!

And what is the atheistic position?

Rashduct4luv:


He created man from earth!

Where did he created earth from?

I was talking about everything not man.

And please explain Quran 19:67.

Rashduct4luv:

Wa alaikum salam

It is foolishness to believe everything came from nothing!

Exactly bro

Rashduct4luv:


He created man from earth!

And what is the atheistic position?

Let do this one after the other.

You haven't give any logical reason yet.

tintingz:
Let do this one after the other.

You haven't give any logical reason yet.

My logical reason is from the Book of Qur'an and Hadith!

No machine was ever created by "nobody''!

Accidents never produces orderliness!

There is a master designer up in Heaven!

Rashduct4luv:


My logical reason is from the Book of Qur'an and Hadith!

No machine was ever created by "nobody''!

Accidents never produces orderliness!

There is a master designer up in Heaven!

Atheist never claim we came from nothing instead we don't know.

The universe is both chaotic and orderly.

You haven't answer the question, out of what did Allah created the earth from?

And don't forget to explain this verse, Quran 19:67.

tintingz:
Atheist never claim we came from nothing instead we don't know.

The universe is both chaotic and orderly.

You haven't answer the question, out of what did Allah created the earth from?

And don't forget to explain this verse, Quran 19:67.

The verse you quoted is out of context!

Allah says:

Does not man remember that We created him before, while he was nothing?

Nothing here means "earth" and "Sex cells" something having little value.

Qur'an 19-(66. And man says: "When I am dead, shall I then be raised up alive'') (67. Does not man remember that We created him before, while he was nothing)

Allah is all powerful, He doesn't really need anything to create something and He does whatever He wills.

Allah says in Qur'an 36 vs 82. Verily, His command, when He intends a thing, is only that He says to it, "Be!'' -- and it is!

I await your atheistic theory of creation and it's scientific proofs! Please no hypothesis or faith!

We are the Faith-based people you have no faith only rational and observable theories!

Rashduct4luv:


The verse you quoted is out of context!

Allah says:

Does not man remember that We created him before, while he was nothing?

Nothing here means "earth" and "Sex cells" something having little value.

Qur'an 19-(66. And man says: "When I am dead, shall I then be raised up alive'') (67. Does not man remember that We created him before, while he was nothing)

Allah is all powerful, He doesn't really need anything to create something and He does whatever He wills.

Allah says in Qur'an 36 vs 82. Verily, His command, when He intends a thing, is only that He says to it, "Be!'' -- and it is!

You're twisting the Quran verse.

The Quran verse clearly said man was created out of nothing. Earth is something not nothing, where did Allah created earth from? Energy cannot even be created how did Allah created it?

You're going out of logic and being hypocritical, you made up some fantasy that Allah is all powerful and can do whatever he will while you suspend logic here. We can simply made up same fantasy the universe pop out of nothing. Stick to logic and stop adding fantasies and fallacies to the discussion.

Something cannot come from nothing, Allah being something created everything out of nothingness wether magically or not, this is still illogical.

The idea of something comes from nothing is not atheistic view, it's actually a religious view, they believe God created something from nothing which contradict something must come from something, if something must come from something then God must have a creator.

Rashduct4luv:
I await your atheistic theory of creation and it's scientific proofs! Please no hypothesis or faith!

We are the Faith-based people you have no faith only rational and observable theories!

First of all know that no one knows the origin of everything, due to the timeline. We only have theories, theory in science does not mean fairytale.

There's no atheistic theory of creation, we have scientific theory of origin of life, beginning of the universe etc.

Athiesm simply means lack in belief in existence of God/s that is just it. Atheist tends to accept scientific research because it's more reliable than myths.

Who told you we don't have faith? Religion only hijack the definition of faith. I can simply have faith in the sun or the food I eat, so?

Atheism is simply foolishness. As much as it is illogical to assume that a motor car cannot come into existence by itself, it is so illogical to assume nothing is behind all that exist. Even having to doubt the existence of the brain behind all that exist is illogical.

There's always something behind nothing. And the first cause is the definition of existence itself.

If atheists could think deep, logical and reasonably, they will believe it is impossible for
1. The earth and it's processes such as evaporation, photosynthesis, decomposition, mineral resources, nitrogen fixation, nitrification l, denitrification, oxygen cycle, hydrogen cycle, geo element lap cycles, evaporation, condensation, raining, the earth moving in its orbit, the other planetary bodies and their alignment, the sun, moon and stars and the galaxies

2. the complexity of human structures and cells

to have come by accident.

Example, if I tell you this handset ( a machine that can call, receive, send and receive messages, play games, charge, together with other functions) produced itself by accident in a virgin desert. You will find it hard to believe that such an organized and complex material can't produce itself by chance, so also the much more greater complex of this earth could not have come out by itself without having a producer behind it.

Rilwayne001:
Atheism is simply foolishness. As much as it is illogical to assume that a motor car cannot come into existence by itself, it is so illogical to assume nothing is behind all that exist. Even having to doubt the existence of the brain behind all that exist is illogical.

There's always something behind nothing. And the first cause is the definition of existence itself.

Oga, did you go through the argument at all?

Creation from nothing is not atheistic ideology, it's a religious ideology. "God created everything from nothing". It's even in your Quran.

Something maybe behind all that exist we just don't know and I have no reason to believe it's God.

Understand the argument and stop attacking straw man.

These are arguments that have been trashed many times.

AbdulHakeem44:
If atheists could think deep, logical and reasonably, they will believe it is impossible for
1. The earth and it's processes such as evaporation, photosynthesis, decomposition, mineral resources, nitrogen fixation, nitrification l, denitrification, oxygen cycle, hydrogen cycle, geo element lap cycles, evaporation, condensation, raining, the earth moving in its orbit, the other planetary bodies and their alignment, the sun, moon and stars and the galaxies

If God is perfect and all knowing why following these process?

The world is imperfect to have a perfect God! Except you agree God is imperfect, I'm ok with that.

The phenomena you mentioned are just natural phenomena with natural process, there is no connection to it to your God or any Gods, you just assume this fantasy to yourself.

When it comes to the beginning of the universe, atheists are mostly agnostic in that position meaning we don't know what caused this universe if it caused itself or not, we just know, we take pride in accepting WE DONT KNOW instead of making some crappy illogical assumptions without no proof.

2. the complexity of human structures and cells

to have come by accident.

Example, if I tell you this handset ( a machine that can call, receive, send and receive messages, play games, charge, together with other functions) produced itself by accident in a virgin desert. You will find it hard to believe that such an organized and complex material can't produce itself by chance, so also the much more greater complex of this earth could not have come out by itself without having a producer behind it.

Let me tell the problems in this analogy.

If I found a complex device alone in the desert, I will ASSUME someone put it there probably the creator which is also a complex being then I will assume such creator must also have a prime complex creator and it goes Infinitum.

I can accept well I don't know how this got here, maybe by accident it became complex or someone put it there, this does not mean any of this is fact or the answer or I will be committing fallacy like appealing to ignorance or gods of the gap.

Google desert dunes and see how beautiful they are, no one designed it there, it is just natural occurrence.

One question, can you tell me how a world would be without a design?

tintingz:
Oga, did you go through the argument at all?

Do I need to? I'm stating my opinion as according to the title of the thread.

Creation from nothing is not atheistic ideology,

What's the atheistic ideology?

It's a religious ideology.

Religion, specifically Abrahamic religions believe in the first cause, of whose essence is existence itself. Atheism disbelief in the first cause, what then do they believe? Unknown? Nothing?

Something maybe behind all that exist we just don't know and I have no reason to believe it's God.

Then you're not arguing from an atheistic position. There's no 'maybe' in atheistic position, it's total disbelief in the existence of the first cause or the brain behind all that exist. It does appear youre still confused on your position.

Understand the argument and stop attacking straw man.

Rilwayne001:


Do I need to? I'm stating my opinion as according to the title of the thread.

Ok, I think it's better we go through the argument instead repeating same thing.

What's the atheistic ideology?

When it comes to the beginning of the universe, most atheists ideology is agnosticism.

Religion, specifically Abrahamic religions believe in the first cause, of whose essence is existence itself. Atheism disbelief in the first cause, what then do they believe? Unknown? Nothing?

Creatio ex nihilo meaning creation out of nothing is a theological ideology not atheistic. God existing itself is a fantasy, cognitive bias, I can simply say the universe exist itself.

God creating from nothing is out of logic, there must be pre-existing material, if you disagree then explain where God created the universe from?

Energy cannot be created nor destroyed, how did God created it?

Then you're not arguing from an atheistic position. There's no 'maybe' in atheistic position, it's total disbelief in the existence of the first cause or the brain behind all that exist. It does appear youre still confused on your position.

We disbelief in existence of God/s not first cause, they are two different thing. First cause can be Aliens or some unknown entity.

There is agnostic atheism hope you know that.

I have no reason to believe your God exist because you yourself cannot prove it(you just believe by faith), just like Santa cannot be proven.

If you have any prove of your God kindly provide them and let's scrutinize it.

It was said to Raabi‘ah: So and so has established
one thousand proofs of the existence of Allah. She
smiled and said: One proof is sufficient. It was
said: What is it? She said: If you were walking on
your own in the desert, and you slipped and fell into
a well and could not get out of it, what would you
do? He said: I would call out: O Allah! She said:
That is the proof.

abdulazeez1002:
It was said to Raabi‘ah: So and so has established
one thousand proofs of the existence of Allah. She
smiled and said: One proof is sufficient. It was
said: What is it? She said: If you were walking on
your own in the desert, and you slipped and fell into
a well and could not get out of it, what would you
do? He said: I would call out: O Allah! She said:
That is the proof.

Hahahahaha!

What if I call out "oh superman" does that mean it's the proof of superman?

Maybe you should go check the definition of proof.

And did Allah appeared when he's called?, if this is the case everyone should believe in Allah.

tintingz:
Hahahahaha!

What if I call out "oh superman" does that mean it's the proof of superman?

Maybe you should go check the definition of proof.

And did Allah appeared when he's called?, if this is the case everyone should believe in Allah.

The mistake you are making is regarding all these possibilities as equal to the common sense
principles and regular occurrences.

I read in al-Mukhtaar magazine, in a translation
from Reader’s Digest, an article that was published
during the war by a young soldier from the
parachute regiment (at a time when parachutes
were something new). He told his story and said
that he had grown up in a house in which there was
no one who mentioned God or prayed, and he
studied in a school in which there were no classes
in religious education and no teacher who was
religious. His upbringing was secular and
materialistic; in other words he grew up like animals
that know nothing but food, drink and sex. But when
he jumped for the first time, and found himself
falling from the sky, before his parachute opened,
he started saying, “O God, O Lord,” calling from his
heart. He was surprised and wondered where this
faith had come from.

But this is not strange, because faith exists
in all hearts; it is something natural (instinctive) and
is part of original human nature, just like the sexual
instinct, because man is a “religious animal”.

But this instinct may be covered up by desires,
hopes and greed, and the pursuit of materialistic
things. But once it is shaken by fear, danger or
hardship, it emerges.

tintingz:
Ok, I think it's better we go through the argument instead repeating same thing.

I'm definitely too lazy.. Ahhh.

When it comes to the beginning of the universe, most atheists ideology is agnosticism.

Why is the same ideology not applicable to the possibility of a first cause?

Creatio ex nihilo meaning creation out of nothing is a theological ideology not atheistic.

This ideology is not just theological as you're making it seem. God didn't come out of nothing. He's definition of existence itself. Creation out of nothing is one of the theories of scientists, you quite know about the big bang. And very well most atheist subscribe to this. You can't deny this. You should simply count your own atheistic position out instead of generalizing that nothingness is not the ideology of position. Think again.

God existing itself is a fantasy, cognitive bias, I can simply say the universe exist itself.

The universe is bounded by time. Scientists have alleged that the universe came into existence at a point in time. God however is beyond the spectrum of time. His essence is existence. His in existence is a contradiction.

God creating from nothing is out of logic, there must be pre-existing material, if you disagree then explain where God created the universe from?

All these are your limited perception, base on that you're limiting your definition of God to human. That's your first error. God is a transcendental being and you cannot judge his way with human ways. So saying he needs Pre-existing materials to create something out of nothing is where you mind is limited to. God is beyond that.

Energy cannot be created nor destroyed, how did God created it?

You need to understand the difference between matter a enrgy and not the other way round. The first law of thermodynamics doesn't actually specify that matter can neither be created nor destroyed, but instead that the total amount of energy in a closed system cannot be created nor destroyed (though it can be changed from one form to another). Matter constitutes energy.

Rilwayne001:


I'm definitely too lazy.. Ahhh.

Ok

Why is the same ideology not applicable to the possibility of a first cause?

Then the first cause is unknown. That's what agnosticism is.

This ideology is not just theological as you're making it seem. God didn't come out of nothing. He's definition of existence itself. Creation out of nothing is one of the theories of scientists, you quite know about the big bang. And very well most atheist subscribe to this. You can't deny this. You should simply count your own atheistic position out instead of generalizing that nothingness is not the ideology of position. Think again.

If God exist itself then why can't the universe exist itself? The problem is, you don't even have evidence to your claims you only read this fantasy from a book.

The Big Bang did not come from nothing as you assume, understand the quantum state.

You are still ignoring the question, where did Allah created the universe from?

Kindly explain Quran 19:67.

The universe is bounded by time. Scientists have alleged that the universe came into existence at a point in time. God however is beyond the spectrum of time. His essence is existence. His in existence is a contradiction.

If God is beyond time how come he knows the future, reason, intervene and works with time?

Ok, let's do it this way, Did God choose that particular time to create the universe?

All these are your limited perception, base on that you're limiting your definition of God to human. That's your first error. God is a transcendental being and you cannot judge his way with human ways. So saying he needs Pre-existing materials to create something out of nothing is where you mind is limited to. God is beyond that.

You are simply saying God is unreasonable and illogical?

Your premise was atheism is foolishness and your reason was atheists believe we came from nothing which is not atheistic position but theological ideology, now that it is illogical to think we can create from nothing their must be materials. This also apply to God's creation, there must be pre-materials God used to create the universe and if you said there isn't then you're being hypocritical, bias, fallacious and betraying logic.

You need to understand the difference between matter a enrgy and not the other way round. The first law of thermodynamics doesn't actually specify that matter can neither be created nor destroyed, but instead that the total amount of energy in a closed system cannot be created nor destroyed (though it can be changed from one form to another). Matter constitutes energy.

Lol.

Yes matter constitutes energy, energy can be converted to matter, now this does not mean energy can be created nor destroyed, my premise is energy. The Big Bang or the universe mostly consist energy, energy is what make things happen, matter is the visibe or physical things in the universe. Matter need energy to work.

According to law of conservation, energy cannot be created nor destroyed how then God was able to create the universe if energy is not a pre-existing material?

abdulazeez1002:

The mistake you are making is regarding all these possibilities as equal to the common sense
principles and regular occurrences.

I read in al-Mukhtaar magazine, in a translation
from Reader’s Digest, an article that was published
during the war by a young soldier from the
parachute regiment (at a time when parachutes
were something new). He told his story and said
that he had grown up in a house in which there was
no one who mentioned God or prayed, and he
studied in a school in which there were no classes
in religious education and no teacher who was
religious. His upbringing was secular and
materialistic; in other words he grew up like animals
that know nothing but food, drink and sex. But when
he jumped for the first time, and found himself
falling from the sky, before his parachute opened,
he started saying, “O God, O Lord,” calling from his
heart. He was surprised and wondered where this
faith had come from.

But this is not strange, because faith exists
in all hearts; it is something natural (instinctive) and
is part of original human nature, just like the sexual
instinct, because man is a “religious animal”.

But this instinct may be covered up by desires,
hopes and greed, and the pursuit of materialistic
things. But once it is shaken by fear, danger or
hardship, it emerges.

You are telling me God works with fear?

Rashduct4luv:


My logical reason is from the Book of Qur'an and Hadith!

No machine was ever created by "nobody''!

Accidents never produces orderliness!

There is a master designer up in Heaven!

Your logical reason is from the Qur'an? No bro, that's faith not logic.

Living things are not machines. We have life.

Accidents, you dont understand what accident means at all. Accident is a word with many meanings. I will help you by posting a dictionary definition.

There is no master designer in heaven. You have only assumed there is.

Meanwhile, I'll hold on and let tintingz deal with you while I see more of your dishonesty, bias and ignorance.

Rilwayne001:
Atheism is simply foolishness. As much as it is illogical to assume that a motor car cannot come into existence by itself, it is so illogical to assume nothing is behind all that exist. Even having to doubt the existence of the brain behind all that exist is illogical.

There's always something behind nothing. And the first cause is the definition of existence itself.

If so, then whay caused the first cause? Lol, you see that theism is the real foolishness here.

You believe that there was nothing behind the existence of God, and you're here calling those who hypothesized the same thing with logical reasons fools.

It is foolish for a fool to not know he is foolish.

tintingz:


You are telling me God works with fear?

Is this all you can comprehend on my write-up above. I can't help you. Bye

I like the way this debate is going and I'm really amazed that my Muslims friends have 'up-ed' their games intellectually. I not an atheist but this debate in quite interesting. Both sides are articulating their argument very well. Kudos to you guyz!

abdulazeez1002:
Is this all you can comprehend on my write-up above. I can't help you. Bye

Your write-up does not prove God, it only depict man calling on their imaginary friend at the time of fear or helplessness.

I can call on superman in the time of fear, it does not prove superman to be real, does it?

You have been indoctrinated to believe in an imaginary friend, part of human nature is fear and we call for help.

tintingz:
Your write-up does not prove God, it only depict man calling on their imaginary friend at the time of fear or helplessness.

I can call on superman in the time of fear, it does not prove superman to be real, does it?

You have been indoctrinated to believe in an imaginary friend, part of human nature is fear and we call for help.

you are still not getting

Akin1212:


If so, then whay caused the first cause? Lol, you see that theism is the real foolishness here.

You believe that there was nothing behind the existence of God, and you're here calling those who believe hypothesized the same thing with logical reasons fools.

It is foolish for a fool to not know he is foolish.

Lol, bro.. they haven't demonstrated how atheism is foolishness, in fact we can see from the argument theism is the foolishness and most foolishness.

They are hypocrites, they want to argue with logic and when it comes to their God they suddenly suspend logic and delve into fantasies.

The argument is still on tho. Let's wait for more response.