Simple questions require simple answers. Logical questions require logical answers. If you're going to do this, don't clog this thread with bible verses or verses from the quran. This logic is very straightforward.


Before Adam and Eve ate from the forbidden tree, they didn't know anything called evil, we can as well say they didn't know good too. They were just zombies.

The instruction given to them by God was that, if they eat from the tree, they will acquire the knowledge of good and evil, in other words, they will know what is bad and also know what is good and that they will die. They didn't even know that death is bad neither did they know that disobedience is bad, since they had not eaten from the tree.

Now, how were they supposed to process that death or disobedience were bad things and make the decision on something they had no knowledge of?
If you bring up the excuse that Satan deceived them, then how were they supposed to know that Satan was deceiving them, were they warned to beware of Satan?

If you have freewill, you must have knowledge of good and evil before you can process deceit, do good or do evil. You cannot commit sin if you don't have the knowledge of good and evil. So where did the concept of the original sin come from? Did they commit the sin before having the knowledge of good and evil? It does not add up.

Theists, think deeply for once in your lives.

what are you saying in essence??

Akin1212:
Simple questions require simple answers. Logical questions require logical answers. If you're going to do this, don't clog this thread with bible verses or verses from the quran. This logic is very straightforward.


Before Adam and Eve ate from the forbidden tree, they didn't know anything called evil, we can as well say they didn't know good too. They were just zombies.

The instruction given to them by God was that, if they eat from the tree, they will acquire the knowledge of good and evil, in other words, they will know what is bad and also know what is good and that they will die. They didn't even know that death is bad neither did they know that disobedience is bad, since they had not eaten from the tree.

Now, how were they supposed to process that death or disobedience were bad things and make the decision on something they had no knowledge of?
If you bring up the excuse that Satan deceived them, then how were they supposed to know that Satan was deceiving them, were they warned to beware of Satan?

If you have freewill, you must have knowledge of good and evil before you can process deceit, do good or do evil. You cannot commit sin if you don't have the knowledge of good and evil. So where did the concept of the original sin come from? Did they commit the sin before having the knowledge of good and evil? It does not add up.

Theists, think deeply for once in your lives.

There is a diff btw knowledge and Intuition
They(by their Godly nature) were created to intuitively do good but they had no knowledge of Good or evil!!!

God doesn't want them to eat the fruit but knows they'll eat anyway then acted like it was surprise to him.

God allowed Satan into the garden, planted same tree inside the garden and probably was asleep when the whole convincing happened, in fact even Adam went to work

The all merciful God have to punish them, the whole world for what he made them to do and blamed it on them.

Fear God

Ancient story

eneojoedu:
what are you saying in essence??

I am asking if Adam and Eve could commit sin even though they didn't have the knowledge of good and evil, they didn't know right from wrong.

For you to commit a sin, you must be aware or be able to think if what you're doing is good or bad.

PhenomenalMorgan:

There is a diff btw knowledge and Intuition
They(by their Godly nature) were created to intuitively do good but they had no knowledge of Good or evil!!!

Lol, how does this answer the questions?

You have assumed they had the intuition to do good,
Did they also had the intuition to not do evil?

How then could they ever do bad? Besides, they didn't even have the intuition at all. Intuition is an instinctive knowledge, I hope you know that. And there's nowhere it was written that they intuitively know to do good. They were to obey instructions, obeying instructions is not good nor bad for people who don't have the knowledge of good and evil. Neither is disobedience.

How did God expect them not to disobey or not to sin prior to having the knowledge of good and evil?

obinna58:
God doesn't want them to eat the fruit but knows they'll eat anyway then acted like it was surprise to him.

God allowed Satan into the garden, planted same tree inside the garden and probably was asleep when the whole convincing happened, in fact even Adam went to work

The all merciful God have to punish them, the whole world for what he made them to do and blamed it on them.

Fear God

Ancient story

Lol

Akin1212:


Lol, how does this answer the questions?

You have assumed they had the intuition to do good,
Did they also had the intuition to not do evil?

How then could they ever do bad? Besides, they didn't even have the intuition at all. Intuition is an instinctive knowledge, I hope you know that. And there's nowhere it was written that they know intuitively know to do good. They were to obey instructions, obeying instructions is not good nor bad for people who don't have the knowledge of good and evil. Neither is disobedience.

The "garden of eden" is a movie that has a terrible scriptwriter/producer.

HellVictorinho:

The "garden of eden" is a movie that has a terrible scriptwriter/producer.

Lol, no doubts!

Only children would believe that story. And I mean adults who still believe it too are still kids when it comes to reasoning. It is very glaring that it is a poorly written fiction. So many contradictions.

Adam and Eve couldn't have done evil or bad (disobeying God) before even having the knowledge of good and evil. If they did, then they did innocently without knowing and shouldn't have been punished or cursed. Except if God, the imaginary being is malevolent. I'm open to that acceptance from theists.

Akin1212:


Lol, no doubts!

Only children would believe that story. And I mean adults who still believe it too are still kids when it comes to reasoning. It is very glaring that it is a poorly written fiction. So many contradictions.

Adam and Eve couldn't have done evil or bad (disobeying God) before even having the knowledge of good and evil. If they did, then they did innocently without knowing and shouldn't have been punished or cursed. Except if God, the imaginary being is malevolent. I'm open to that acceptance from theists.

Their God is dangerously insane.

Akin1212:
Simple questions require simple answers. Logical questions require logical answers. If you're going to do this, don't clog this thread with bible verses or verses from the quran. This logic is very straightforward.


Before Adam and Eve ate from the forbidden tree, they didn't know anything called evil, we can as well say they didn't know good too. They were just zombies.

The instruction given to them by God was that, if they eat from the tree, they will acquire the knowledge of good and evil, in other words, they will know what is bad and also know what is good and that they will die. They didn't even know that death is bad neither did they know that disobedience is bad, since they had not eaten from the tree.

Now, how were they supposed to process that death or disobedience were bad things and make the decision on something they had no knowledge of?
If you bring up the excuse that Satan deceived them, then how were they supposed to know that Satan was deceiving them, were they warned to beware of Satan?

If you have freewill, you must have knowledge of good and evil before you can process deceit, do good or do evil. You cannot commit sin if you don't have the knowledge of good and evil. So where did the concept of the original sin come from? Did they commit the sin before having the knowledge of good and evil? It does not add up.

Theists, think deeply for once in your lives.

I don't know whether you really want to find out the truth or want to further strengthen your atheist views. However the case, I will help you if you are willing to listen.
What the Scripture means by knowledge of good and evil is absolutely different from what you think. A knowledge of good and evil actually means a standard for judging what is good and evil Before the fall of man in the garden of Eden, Adam and Evil had only depended on the judgement of God on good and evil i.e they accepted what God declared as good as good and what God declared as evil as evil. That was the only standard of good and evil at that time. After man disobeyed God by eating the forbidden fruit, man created another standard for judging good and evil different from God's. Hence, Cane killed Abel, he actually thought it was a good thing to offer God the fruit of his labour (i.e his human effort) whereas God needs our offering of faith. And again the People commanded to multiply and fill the earth decided to build the tower of Babel to be united( they jugded they could be united and do exploits if they remain in the same place), this is a judgement that's absolutely different from God's. Hence, God later declared in a scripture which I don't want to quote the verse, that His thoughts and ways are different from ours in an immeasurable dimension. Today what God says is bad, man will say it is good and vice versa. For that reason God has given us His Law and Word so we can understand what is actually good and evil.

Akin1212:


I am asking if Adam and Eve could commit sin even though they didn't have the knowledge of good and evil, they didn't know right from wrong.

For you to commit a sin, you must be aware or be able to think if what you're doing is good or bad.

its Been a while I went through my Bible but if I can remember it said after eve ate and gave to Adam, their eyes became open, and they knew they were naked. before that there was an instruction given to them by God(they had options).. if anything, what you should ask maybe is why was the � planted there and not somewhere far away, or why was it even planted at all... or why was it not uprooted. but that's none of my business though.

Akin1212:


I am asking if Adam and Eve could commit sin even though they didn't have the knowledge of good and evil, they didn't know right from wrong.

For you to commit a sin, you must be aware or be able to think if what you're doing is good or bad.

Adam and Eve were like babies that know nothing, God who is like a loving father and intelligent should have do something to prevent any danger from his children but instead he did nothing. It's like a mother that watch and allow her baby to swallow drugs.

And some block heads will say God is loving and merciful, that's delusion.

tintingz:
Adam and Eve were like babies that know nothing, God who is like a loving father and intelligent should have do something to prevent any danger from his children but instead he did nothing. It's like a mother that watch and allow her baby to swallow drugs.

And some block heads will say God is loving and merciful, that's delusion.

It's worse than delusion.

live4dgospel:

I don't know whether you really want to find out the truth or want to further strengthen your atheist views. However the case, I will help you if you are willing to listen.
What the Scripture means by knowledge of good and evil is absolutely different from what you think. A knowledge of good and evil actually means a standard for judging what is good and evil Before the fall of man in the garden of Eden, Adam and Evil had only depended on the judgement of God on good and evil i.e they accepted what God declared as good as good and what God declared as evil as evil. That was the only standard of good and evil at that time. After man disobeyed God by eating the forbidden fruit, man created another standard for judging good and evil different from God's. Hence, Cane killed Abel, he actually thought it was a good thing to offer God the fruit of his labour (i.e his human effort) whereas God needs our offering of faith. And again the People commanded to multiply and fill the earth decided to build the tower of Babel to be united( they jugded they could be united and do exploits if they remain in the same place), this is a judgement that's absolutely different from God's. Hence, God later declared in a scripture which I don't want to quote the verse, that His thoughts and ways are different from ours in an immeasurable dimension. Today what God says is bad, man will say it is good and vice versa. For that reason God has given us His Law and Word so we can understand what is actually good and evil.

It seems you have translated the story of Adam and Eve in a way to suit and promote your narrative. Well, let's analyze this issue in your narrative. The loop hole is still glaring for all to see. My atheistic views already stand on a firm ground, they don't need strengthening, this thread was created for theists like you to reason logically. And thanks for not clogging here with bible verses.

Now, if the knowledge of good and evil they were warned about was knowing the standard of judging good and evil, it means they actually didn't know how to decide what's good and what's bad prior to eating from the tree. Then, how can they make choices?

If they were conditioned to follow God's standard of good and evil, they cannot make choices and they cannot have freewill.

A perfect God cannot give freewill to people he wants to follow his instructions, because he would know perfectly what freewill is. Perhaps this God is not even perfect to begin with. All of it just doesn't add up.

Did God tell Adam and Eve what was good and what was bad? I don't see that written anywhere in the bible. Or what do you mean by God declared what's good and declared what's bad?

To obey instructions fully, they wouldn't be able to make decisions to disobey. God knew, didn't he? To decide to disobey, they needed to know the difference between what's good (obey) and what's bad (disobey). And you just said they could not judge that. How come they now disobeyed? Did they do what they couldn't do? The lies are too glaring.

On the story of Cain, he was jealous that was why he killed his brother.

eneojoedu:
its Been a while I went through my Bible but if I can remember it said after eve ate and gave to Adam, their eyes became open, and they knew they were naked. before that there was an instruction given to them by God(they had options).. if anything, what you should ask maybe is why was the � planted there and not somewhere far away, or why was it even planted at all... or why was it not uprooted. but that's none of my business though.

They had options to do what? To do what's good (obey) or what's bad (disobey)? They didn't even know what's good or bad yet, how could they have options? They didn't even know what death was. They were only told.

God has planned this all along to teach humans the importance of obedience and loyalty.
In the end he will reward & choose millions of humans who will be totally loyal to him.



Adam and Eve failed a very simple test

Akin1212:


They had options to do what? To do what's good (obey) or what's bad (disobey)? They didn't even know what's good or bad yet, how could they have options? They didn't even know what death was. They were only told.

they were told, so they know.

eneojoedu:
they were told, so they know.

They were told what's bad and what's good, yet they didn't have the knowledge of what's bad and what's good? Lmao. It still doesn't make sense.

Akin1212:


They were told what's bad and what's good, yet they didn't have the knowledge of what's bad and what's good? Lmao. It still doesn't make sense.

The story wasn't even meant to make sense.
Most Christians know that they can't make anything out of it but they won't discard it because their God(s) is/are unquestionably insane.
And,yes,Christians probably don't worship the same God.
We have the Trinitarian God,Jehovah, White Garment God,etc.

HellVictorinho:

The story wasn't even meant to make sense.
Most Christians know that they can't make anything out of it but they won't discard it because their God(s) is/are unquestionably insane.
And,yes,Christians probably don't worship the same God.
We have the Trinitarian God,Jehovah, White Garment God,etc.

Lmao, let's not throw it at them wholly. Let's give it to them bit by bit.

OpenYourEyes1:
God has planned this all along to teach humans the importance of obedience and loyalty.
In the end he will reward & choose millions of humans who will be totally loyal to him.



Adam and Eve failed a very simple test

So God has planned everything that happened? That means he knew Adam and Eve would fail even before he created them? Why subject them to such horror and curse them? This God seems to be a malevolent God.

Why would he test them when he already knew the result? This is thoughtless.

Akin1212:
Simple questions require simple answers. Logical questions require logical answers. If you're going to do this, don't clog this thread with bible verses or verses from the quran. This logic is very straightforward.


Before Adam and Eve ate from the forbidden tree, they didn't know anything called evil, we can as well say they didn't know good too. They were just zombies.

The instruction given to them by God was that, if they eat from the tree, they will acquire the knowledge of good and evil, in other words, they will know what is bad and also know what is good and that they will die. They didn't even know that death is bad neither did they know that disobedience is bad, since they had not eaten from the tree.

Now, how were they supposed to process that death or disobedience were bad things and make the decision on something they had no knowledge of?
If you bring up the excuse that Satan deceived them, then how were they supposed to know that Satan was deceiving them, were they warned to beware of Satan?

If you have freewill, you must have knowledge of good and evil before you can process deceit, do good or do evil. You cannot commit sin if you don't have the knowledge of good and evil. So where did the concept of the original sin come from? Did they commit the sin before having the knowledge of good and evil? It does not add up.

Theists, think deeply for once in your lives.

I gave a reply that i think make sense on the other thread.

1. They knew what is good and what is bad from God's standpoint.

How? God had said a) 'Don't eat the fruit' - what is good.

b) 'If you eat the fruit, you will die' - What is bad.

Therefore they knew God's standard of what is good and what is bad.

2. Satan's point is: 'if you eat the fruit, you will become LIKE God.'

In other words, since they already know Gods own standard of good and bad. Satan is saying become like God by setting your own standard of what is good and what is bad. How?

3. Eating the fruit from Gods own standard was bad, but if they eat the fruit, they are stating that there own standard in these matter is: "eating the fruit is good", not bad. These is a challenge to Gods authority to set standard of what is good and what is bad.

JMAN05:


I gave a reply that i think make sense on the other thread.

1. They knew what is good and what is bad from God's standpoint.

How? God had said a) 'Don't eat the fruit' - what is good.

b) 'If you eat the fruit, you will die' - What is bad.

Therefore they knew God's standard of what is good and what is bad.

2. Satan's point is: 'if you eat the fruit, you will become LIKE God.'

In other words, since they already know Gods own standard of good and bad. Satan is saying become like God by setting your own standard of what is good and what is bad. How?

3. Eating the fruit from Gods own standard was bad, but if they eat the fruit, they are stating that there own standard in these matter is: "eating the fruit is good", not bad. These is a challenge to Gods authority to set standard of what is good and what is bad.

For the sake of argument and counter arguments, let me agree with 1 and 2. Now the question is this, since they themselves didn't know what was good and what was bad, how would they decide on the good and the bad between 1 and 2? This is very straightforward and should not require an epistle to answer.

Now, on number 3, if God didn't want his authority to be disregarded, why did he make Adam and Eve free moral agents in the first place? Why did he give them freewill to make their own decisions, what's good for them? God was angry when he found out they had disregarded his authority, wasn't he?

Why give humans freewill to decide what's good for them when you assume you know what's good for them? Isn't that confusion? Was God confused?

Akin1212:


For the sake of argument and counter arguments, let me agree with 1 and 2. Now the question is this, since they themselves didn't know what was good and what was bad, how would they decide on the good and the bad between 1 and 2? This is very straightforward and should not require an epistle to answer.

Am not sure I understood your question. Are you asking how they will know that eating the fruit was rather good for them, as Satan said?

Or you didn't understand my point?

Now, on number 3, if God didn't want his authority to be disregarded, why did he make Adam and Eve free moral agents in the first place? Why did he give them freewill to make their own decisions, what's good for them? God was angry when he found out they had disregarded his authority, wasn't he?

Why give humans freewill to decide what's good for them when you assume you know what's good for them? Isn't that confusion? Was God confused?

1. I think your comment is like stating that when people get freewill, the default action will be to rebel. God has good reason to expect obedience from all his intelligent creatures because a perfect person has greater possibility to do good than to do bad. Many angels had been obedient to Gods authority for perhaps millions of years before Adam's creation. Yet they have freewill.

So His purpose for creating free moral agents was not so that He would be challenged. Far from that. His intention was to create persons who will use their freewill to worship Him and be under His authority. He doesn't want to create puppets or robots which He would remote from heaven. He wants to create humans in His image.

I don't know about you, but I love it that God gave each of us intelligence and allows us to individually chose to serve Him. The opposite might live us without variety in thought as we have today. We will be like robots.

2. The opposite of free will would have been predetermination. There may have been many disadvantages to that that we can't now see. First, we wouldn't be in Gods image. We will be Gods puppet without option. God, no doubt won't derive joy of servitude since the individuals serving him are programmed to serve Him. Just like putting an app in your phone that always says "My master, I love you so much, I give my life to you intoto". What's the need if I did program it to do just that. I personally won't derive joy in that. But if my grown child says just that? It makes much difference.

Yes, He knows what's good for us, but it will make much sense to Him if we choose that which is good, thus His counsels.

Akin1212:


It seems you have translated the story of Adam and Eve in a way to suit and promote your narrative. Well, let's analyze this issue in your narrative. The loop hole is still glaring for all to see. My atheistic views already stand on a firm ground, they don't need strengthening, this thread was created for theists like you to reason logically. And thanks for not clogging here with bible verses.

Now, if the knowledge of good and evil they were warned about was knowing the standard of judging good and evil, it means they actually didn't know how to decide what's good and what's bad prior to eating from the tree. Then, how can they make choices?

If they were conditioned to follow God's standard of good and evil, they cannot make choices and they cannot have freewill.

A perfect God cannot give freewill to people he wants to follow his instructions, because he would know perfectly what freewill is. Perhaps this God is not even perfect to begin with. All of it just doesn't add up.

Did God tell Adam and Eve what was good and what was bad? I don't see that written anywhere in the bible. Or what do you mean by God declared what's good and declared what's bad?

To obey instructions fully, they wouldn't be able to make decisions to disobey. God knew, didn't he? To decide to disobey, they needed to know the difference between what's good (obey) and what's bad (disobey). And you just said they could not judge that. How come they now disobeyed? Did they do what they couldn't do? The lies are too glaring.

On the story of Cain, he was jealous that was why he killed his brother.

You're still mistaken. God created man with free will i.e man can choose to do what he wants to do by himself. Either to obey God or disobey Him. This is absolutely different from the concept of knowledge of good and evil. The Knowledge of good and evil is as I said before a standard for judging what is good and evil. Think about it, are they not different? Free Will and standard for judging good and evil? Of course, they are different. Man only created another standard for judging good and evil through the free will given to them by God. What then is confusing here? The only reason is that your heart has been darkened.

JMAN05:


Am not sure I understood your question. Are you asking how they will know that eating the fruit was rather good for them, as Satan said?

Or you didn't understand my point?

You listed your points numerically and I understood them perfectly. You said in point 1 that God told them what was good and what was bad. From God's standard of good and bad.


And in point 2 Satan came and told them another thing.

Now, as people who didn't know good or bad on their own standards, how were they supposed to decide correctly who was saying what's good and what's bad between God and Satan?

Were they supposed to adhere to God's instructions as zombies, even though they had freewill as claimed by you? Or were they supposed to use the freewill God gave them in the first place although they didn't know they were doing so? Because in making decisions to eat from the tree of knowledge, they might think they are doing themselves a favor even though they could not discern it due to lack of the knowledge of evil and good. They were only listening to two voices.

JMAN05:


1. I think your comment is like stating that when people get freewill, the default action will be to rebel. God has good reason to expect obedience from all his intelligent creatures because a perfect person has greater possibility to do good than to do bad. Many angels had been obedient to Gods authority for perhaps millions of years before Adam's creation. Yet they have freewill.

Then you have thought wrong. When people get freewill, they have equal propensity to obey as to disobey. Like equal chances, they can CHOOSE to obey or to disobey. You don't expect someone who has freewill to obey and you don't expect them to disobey, whatever they do is their own choice. There is zero compulsion, you cannot instruct them. When you give instruction to people you are not expecting them to use freewill. Instructions are statements of command.

Please don't make bold claims about angels obeying God for millions of years. It's not even logical. Have you seen angel before? Can you even sketch the picture of one. We are discussing reality and you're bringing fictional characters. Although God is also a fictional character, perhaps my discussion with you about God is giving you the freedom of introducing other fairies into the fray? I am only trying to show you that what you believe is fiction. My position is based on hypothesis - that is, If God exists.

JMAN05:


So His purpose for creating free moral agents was not so that He would be challenged. Far from that. His intention was to create persons who will use their freewill to worship Him and be under His authority. He doesn't want to create puppets or robots which He would remote from heaven. He wants to create humans in His image.

I don't know about you, but I love it that God gave each of us intelligence and allows us to individually chose to serve Him. The opposite might live us without variety in thought as we have today. We will be like robots.

What are you even talking about?
If Adam and Eve didn't eat from the tree in the garden of Eden, what was God's plan? Did his plan included using freewill to worship him? NO!
Would Adam and Eve ever knew they were naked? NO!
Would Adam and Eve ever be chased out of the garden of Eden? NO!
What was the point of giving people freewill if you want them to be obedient? You haven't answered this question since antiquity.

If God gave humans freewill so that they can use it to worship him, he as well knew that not all people would worship him since they have freewill. Are you saying he knew what the freewill will cause and yet went ahead so he can derive pleasure in punishing the ones who don't worship him?

It's like giving your son money and telling him he can buy whatever he wants, but you want him to buy clothes. But since you already said he can buy whatever he wants, he bought a phone. Will you punish him for buying the phone? You're to blame for giving him the freedom to buy what he wants. You can't blame the son for buying the phone because you already said he can buy what he wants.

And that is exactly what we are saying here. The concept of a God is an illusion and the story of the garden of Eden is the onset of the lies. Think deeply about it.

JMAN05:


2. The opposite of free will would have been predetermination. There may have been many disadvantages to that that we can't now see. First, we wouldn't be in Gods image. We will be Gods puppet without option. God, no doubt won't derive joy of servitude since the individuals serving him are programmed to serve Him. Just like putting an app in your phone that always says "My master, I love you so much, I give my life to you intoto". What's the need if I did program it to do just that. I personally won't derive joy in that. But if my grown child says just that? It makes much difference.

Yes, He knows what's good for us, but it will make much sense to Him if we choose that which is good, thus His counsels.

1[i]. Does God want everyone to serve him, yes or no?[/i]
If yes, why didn't he make them zombies, puppets or robots so that he would achieve that aim?.
If no, then why punish those who don't since he doesn't even want everyone to worship him in the first place?

2. If God wants us to be in his own image, then he probably wants us to have freewill and do whatever we like, whatever feels good to us and not to him.

3. I tell you bro, according to what you believe, God derives more joy in seeing people punished. If not he wouldn't tell them they can do whatever they want by giving them freewill.

It's all mumbo jumbo, I just hope you will see it someday. I wish you can start thinking outside of faith. Logic is priceless yet free. Use it sometimes.

live4dgospel:

You're still mistaken. God created man with free will i.e man can choose to do what he wants to do by himself. Either to obey God or disobey Him. This is absolutely different from the concept of knowledge of good and evil.

The Knowledge of good and evil is as I said before a standard for judging what is good and evil. Think about it, are they not different? Free Will and standard for judging good and evil? Of course, they are different.

Man only created another standard for judging good and evil through the free will given to them by God. What then is confusing here? The only reason is that your heart has been darkened.

I will address the bolded above numerically to clear your confusion.

1. A man with freewill that can choose what to do among options must already have the knowledge of good and evil to be able to use his freewill to make decisions. It's not rocket science if you use logic instead of the faith you're using to think of it.

2. Freewill is different from knowledge of good and evil, I didn't say they were the same. But they are totally dependent on each other. You can't have freewill if you don't have the standard of choosing what's good and what's bad. You need to make decisions among options using freewill, how do you choose what's good and throw away what's bad without the standard of doing so?

3. Man created what? Why do you people like to describe the bible in ways that suit your narratives? According to the legend in the bible, God warned Adam and Eve to eat from all the trees in the garden except one. That if they do, they will die. There was no record of any good or evil know to Adam and Eve before hand except the instructions from God. Stop changing the bible please.

Akin1212:


I will address the bolded above numerically to clear your confusion.

1. A man with freewill that can choose what to do among options must already have the knowledge of good and evil to be able to use his freewill to make decisions. It's not rocket science if you use logic instead of the faith you're using to think of it.

2. Freewill is different from knowledge of good and evil, I didn't say they were the same. But they are totally dependent on each other. You can't have freewill if you don't have the standard of choosing what's good and what's bad. You need to make decisions among options using freewill, how do you choose what's good and throw away what's bad without the standard of doing so?

3. Man created what? Why do you people like to describe the bible in ways that suit your narratives? According to the legend in the bible, God warned Adam and Eve to eat from all the trees in the garden except one. That if they do, they will die. There was no record of any good or evil know to Adam and Eve before hand except the instructions from God. Stop changing the bible please.

You are mixing up both free will and standard for judging good and evil, the two concepts are not in any intertwined they are as I said before absolutely different.
Let me analyse your confusion, this is an excerpt from your text:

"You need to make decisions among options using freewill, how do you choose what's good and throw away what's bad without the standard of doing so?"

Let give a scenario to illustrate your point of confusion, consider for instance a baby it has a free will it can choose to pick some sand on the ground or any other objects available to it and swallow them, right? Does it have a standard for judging whether sand is good for its health or not? Absolutely No. When it grows up, it will know by science and law of nature that sand is not beneficial to health. Think of Adam and Eve like a baby, they have free will but no standard for judging between good and evil. Before their fall they did things not because they had their standard but because they depended on that of God. Just the way babies depend on their mothers to feed with their milk. Are your ears still hard to hear? Adam had free will but they didn't have the ability to know whether what they did was good or evil, they just depended on the judgment of God, i.e they accepted that something was good or evil because God told them it was good or evil but they had the free will to reject the judgement of God. What then is confusing here?

live4dgospel:

You are mixing up both free will and standard for judging good and evil, the two concepts are not in any intertwined they are as I said before absolutely different.
Let me analyse your confusion, this is an excerpt from your text:

"You need to make decisions among options using freewill, how do you choose what's good and throw away what's bad without the standard of doing so?"

Let give a scenario to illustrate your point of confusion, consider for instance a baby it has a free will it can choose to pick some sand on the ground or any other objects available to it and swallow them, right? Does it have a standard for judging whether sand is good for its health or not? Absolutely No. When it grows up, it will know by science and law of nature that sand is not beneficial to health. Think of Adam and Eve like a baby, they have free will but no standard for judging between good and evil. Before their fall they did things not because they had their standard but because they depended on that of God. Just the way babies depend on their mothers to feed with their milk. Are your ears still hard to hear? Adam had free will but they didn't have the ability to know whether what they did was good or evil, they just depended on the judgment of God, i.e they accepted that something was good or evil because God told them it was good or evil but they had the free will to reject the judgement of God. What then is confusing here?

On the contrary, you're the one who is confused and you lack understanding. I am glad you used the baby instance to show that you don't understand what freewill is. Let me start by defining what freewill is for you.

Freewill (adj): Done willingly rather than by compulsion.

Free will (noun): The power of independent action and choice, the ability to act or make choices as a free and autonomous being and not solely as a result of compulsion.

Autonomous (adj): self governing, able to choose, self sufficient.

How is this hard for you? How can you even say a baby has free will? Lmao

A baby does not choose. If you place a baby on the ground where there is sand, the baby will not DECIDE whether to pick sand and swallow or not. If there is something to pick, the baby will pick it. That's why parents are there to monitor babies. I am so disappointed with this your thought process. It is very wack. You have a wrong perception of what freewill is. Do babies make decisions at all? Lol


Freewill is actually exercised when you know the consequences of your actions. When you can weigh your options and decide based on them. Before you can weigh your options, you need to be able to know the difference between good and bad. Freewill is not independent of the knowledge of good and bad, it can never be. Because while exercising freewill you're considering yourself and how the decisions you're making will affect you.

If Adam had freewill but lack the ability to know whether he did good or bad, why did your God now punished him for what he didnt honestly know was bad?? Lol. Are you really thinking of this concept at all? Why would you rain curses on someone who didn't know he had done wrong? According to your baby instance, It's like saying an infant broke a glass of water or tumbler and you slapped the baby hard. Isn't that wickedness? Do you want to tell me that the baby could make a choice not to break the glass or tumbler?

It's simple, Adam could not have had freewill to eat or not from the tree of knowledge without knowing the difference between good and evil. Just like the baby couldn't have had freewill to break the glass or not without knowing which is good or bad.

Freewill is dependent on knowing what's good and what's bad.

I advise you to go and read more on freewill, you have a very lopsided understanding of it. No wonder you live for the gospel. Lol

If they had the freewill to reject the judgement of God and go for another option, then they must have weighed their options to see which is GOOD for them or which is BAD for them before making a decision. They can't just act like zombies because they have freewill, remember?
On the other hand, if they accepted something was good or bad from God because God told them so, what would stop them from accepting something as good or bad from Satan too if they can't process who is good or bad between God and Satan? Remember they can't process what's good or bad because they have not eaten from the tree of knowledge yet when Satan was talking to them.

Such are the lies of the garden of Eden. You're just using one lie to cover the other.

Akin1212:



On the contrary, you're the one who is confused and you lack understanding. I am glad you used the baby instance to show that you don't understand what freewill is. Let me start by defining what freewill is for you.

Freewill (adj): Done willingly rather than by compulsion.

Free will (noun): The power of independent action and choice, the ability to act or make choices as a free and autonomous being and not solely as a result of compulsion.

Autonomous (adj): self governing, able to choose, self sufficient.

How is this hard for you? How can you even say a baby has free will? Lmao

A baby does not choose. If you place a baby on the ground where there is sand, the baby will not DECIDE whether to pick sand and swallow or not. If there is something to pick, the baby will pick it. That's why parents are there to monitor babies. I am so disappointed with this your thought process. It is very wack. You have a wrong perception of what freewill is. Do babies make decisions at all? Lol


Freewill is actually exercised when you know the consequences of your actions. When you can weigh your options and decide based on them. Before you can weigh your options, you need to be able to know the difference between good and bad. Freewill is not independent of the knowledge of good and bad, it can never be. Because while exercising freewill you're considering yourself and how the decisions you're making will affect you.

If Adam had freewill but lack the ability to know whether he did good or bad, why did your God now punished him for what he didnt honestly know was bad?? Lol. Are you really thinking of this concept at all? Why would you rain curses on someone who didn't know he had done wrong? According to your baby instance, It's like saying an infant broke a glass of water or tumbler and you slapped the baby hard. Isn't that wickedness? Do you want to tell me that the baby could make a choice not to break the glass or tumbler?

It's simple, Adam could not have had freewill to eat or not from the tree of knowledge without knowing the difference between good and evil. Just like the baby couldn't have had freewill to break the glass or not without knowing which is good or bad.

Freewill is dependent on knowing what's good and what's bad.

I advise you to go and read more on freewill, you have a very lopsided understanding of it. No wonder you live for the gospel. Lol

Free will is not what you can get from your secular dictionary alone. I think I've explained everything you need to know. I gave you a baby instance so you can understand the condition of Adam in the beginning. And I repeat babies have free will even from their mothers' wombs, I have restrained from quoting Scripture for you. You depend on your secular dictionary and logic to judge this case but you restrained me from using my Bible which is my power. How unjust could this be? However, I know that you have heard that God created man and angels with free will, in fact that was why Lucifer chose to stand against God because he had a free will. Now tell me since you have heard that God gave man free will, when does that free will start? Do you start to have the free will only when you are old enough? What age could you be to say that you are enough to have the Free Will? It's a known fact that human beings learn till they are old with grey hair and die. That's, there are things you do now and you think it's right but as grow up you will discover it is actually wrong and you will try to amend it. If freewill is based on knowledge of good and evil, then how old will one be to be able to receive the freewill from God? Can't you still see the darkness in your understanding?