frosbel2:


^^

And finally , here is the answer we have been looking for from our resident apologist ;

The bible which contains the true words for the salvation of ALL humanity is according to Ihedinobi3 "not an easy book to understand" and furthermore " we take all the help we can get to understand it" , but whose help do we take ? The catholic Church help or the Anglican Church help or the JW Church help or the Deeperlife Church help or the Mormon help etc.

A book called the BIBLE that holds the ONE TRUTH, the MEANS for SALVATION , the HOPE for all HUMANITY is definitely "not an easy book to understand".

I rest my case your honour.

Good night all !!!

An unbeliever reading the Bible will be able to find the Gospel in it if they want, but not much else.

Human beings are naturally arrogant. That is why we are tested as we are. If we are willing to humble ourselves to God and accept His Help His Way, we will be fine. If not, we will not be.

Ihedinobi3:

An unbeliever reading the Bible will be able to find the Gospel in it if they want, but not much else.

Human beings are naturally arrogant. That is why we are tested as we are. If we are willing to humble ourselves to God and accept His Help His Way, we will be fine. If not, we will not be.

A few problems straightway from your statement.

You surely cannot call people who have never heard about the gospel arrogant and that includes our ancestors who Jesus did not reach until over a thousands years after his alleged resurrection.

Further, Arrogance in your context is only be applicable if there is a complete understanding of the 'truth' and even then this is still debatable. More importantly though, how can this be a fair test when some people in a specific geographical location have been put in pole position for this race, while others have no inkling of the race rules , talk less of what position they are in. You can't call ignorance arrogance even though we agree that some ignorant people can be arrogant.

Also, your bible says ;
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life "

Emphasis - "whoever believes in him" & "For God so loved"

What type of love is this that makes the gospel of truth so complex to understand, knowing quite well that those who do not accept it will spend an eternity without end in torture and torment.

Sorry , your theology is warped in cruelty and incredulity.

frosbel2:


A few problems straightway from your statement.

You surely cannot call people who have never heard about the gospel arrogant and that includes our ancestors who Jesus did not reach until over a thousands years after his alleged resurrection.

Further, Arrogance in your context is only be applicable if there is a complete understanding of the 'truth' and even then this is still debatable. More importantly though, how can this be a fair test when some people in a specific geographical location have been put in pole position for this race, while others have no inkling of the race rules , talk less of what position they are in. You can't call ignorance arrogance even though we agree that some ignorant people can be arrogant.

Also, your bible says ;
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life "

Emphasis - "whoever believes in him" & "For God so loved"

What type of love is this that makes the gospel of truth so complex to understand, knowing quite well that those who do not accept it will spend an eternity without end in torture and torment.

Sorry , your theology is warped in cruelty and incredulity.

It isn't just those people who never heard the Gospel that I spoke of. I was speaking of all human beings. All human beings are naturally arrogant. That is the meaning of evil. We tend to act like we are God rather than mere creatures. This is why the tests that God subjects us to are supposed to humble us. We are supposed to learn to accept our necessary dependence upon God for our own good. But not all of us are willing to learn that lesson.

As for hearing the Gospel, I already answered this question on another thread of yours. Throughout all generations of mankind, the Gospel has never been far from anyone who accepted the witness of Creation and their conscience. Once anyone anywhere at any time in human history begins to wonder how to escape from the impossible situation that human beings are in, God sends the Gospel to them no matter where they are. That has always been the case, is still the case today and will remain the case until the end of human history. Geography and culture have never been a problem that God didn't solve. An example is Jonah and Nineveh.

The testimony of the Bible about those whom you say are in a "pole position" is that they were always rebellious against God in spite of their privileged position. So, their "pole position" did not really make a difference. That is the same with every other race. No ethnic group has ever been so disadvantaged that they lacked the Gospel. If they wanted it, they got it. In some cases even, they got it when they didn't want it and they rejected it and were destroyed for their stubbornness. That is still happening today too.

The Gospel is easy enough to access in the Bible. Even a child can understand it. I was saved as a child myself. I don't have any memory of how it happened either. I know somebody else who was saved at the age of four. The Gospel is not hard to understand at all. It is extremely simple and extremely easy. But that is the only easy thing to understand from the Bible. The rest of the Bible is a test of patience and endurance to learn and the Lord is gracious so that He gives every help anyone needs to learn it if they are willing to have it.

So, no cruelty at all. As for incredulity, well, humans are arrogant so it is generally inconceivable to them that there are things beyond their ken and their ability.

Ihedinobi3:

There are others on this thread who are arguing and complaining that the writers of the Gospels copied each other so that they cannot be considered independent witnesses. They are together some kind of conspiracy to sell the Jesus story, according to them. Now you are complaining that writers of Scripture do not say the exact same thing to avoid confusion. Do you see why I don't take many of you seriously? I engage in these discussions to help actual believers who have the same questions you do and are willing to hear answers, not for your own sakes. You all would only be happy if a Bible ceases to exist. There is no other way to please you.

Two answers will suffice here:

1. God wrote the Bible the way He did in order to test the readers. If it was easy to understand everything He wrote, then how would we know who actually cares about what God has to say? The degree of trouble that any given reader is willing to take to understand God is conclusive proof of their dedication to hearing God's side of the story.

2. Although it may be hard work to see how the Bible is in perfect agreement with itself, it CAN be seen. If you actually ask questions, you will see the answers. So, if Matthew says Canaanite and Mark says Syrophoenician, the honest reader would ask why, at least and keep reading to see if there is any explanation. The most important answer is that both of them are saying that she is a Gentile. But if the reader is a believer with the pastor-teaching gift, then, of course, he would go further and research the history to find out whether there is a relationship between Syrophoenicia and Canaan so that he can get the larger context within which the two different Gospels work. That is how these things work.

In conclusion, the Bible was deliberately not designed to be easy reading.



I think you completely miss the point. Every time I accuse someone of dishonesty, I explain as clearly as possible why I did. My reason here was clearly NOT that you disagree with me. It is that you insist on discussing an ancient document while demanding that it must be divorced from its cultural origins. If your demand is acceded to, then the Bible can be made to say whatever the reader wishes for it to say. But that would be dishonest. And that is what you were insisting on.

The Bible is not an easy book to understand. That is why we take all the help we can get to understand it.

Dude,I'm all over this,u said I am obstinate, I'm not interested in the conversation again since u choose to see me that way,u describe me of being dishonest,what is the point of arguing again,u have made ur conclusions, let's move on

frosbel2:
And according to Pastor BluntBoy all Muslims, Hindus, Atheists and most of Christianity EXCEPT YOUR OWN SECT will be sentenced to a second death , right ? That's ABOUT 95% of humanity not to talk of MOST of humanity who died without ever knowing about Jesus.


This is you own interpretation of your scripture, alas most Jesus followers on this forum will call you a heretic and many ANTICHRISTS like me who do not buy this nonsense will call you a LUNATIC.

I

Hermes019:

Dude,I'm all over this,u said I am obstinate, I'm not interested in the conversation again since u choose to see me that way,u describe me of being dishonest,what is the point of arguing again,u have made ur conclusions, let's move on

frosbel2:
And according to Pastor BluntBoy all Muslims, Hindus, Atheists and most of Christianity EXCEPT YOUR OWN SECT will be sentenced to a second death , right ? That's ABOUT 95% of humanity not to talk of MOST of humanity who died without ever knowing about Jesus.


This is you own interpretation of your scripture, alas most Jesus followers on this forum will call you a heretic and many ANTICHRISTS like me who do not buy this nonsense will call you a LUNATIC.

I share his believe on hell. Like him I do not believe in ever burning fire with ever burning sinners without death.

I believe in hell and I believe sinners who refuse the grace of God will be destroyed there like Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed with fire and brimstone raining down from heaven.

MhizAngel99:
Why not Islam? Hinduism? Why shouldn't I be a Mormon? Or a Buddhist? Or a Judaist? What convincing evidence is there for Christianity that overwhelms every other religion out there? This is a genuine question. Why should I believe in Christianity?

Why should you believe in Christianity. In other words why should you believe in Jesus Christ? I why tell you why.

Jesus said, "I have come that man might have life and have it more abundantly." (John 10:10). There is a kind of life only Jesus who is the foundation of Christianity can give which you cannot get else where. This is the record that God has given us eternal life (The indestructible life, The imperishable life) and this life is in Jesus Christ the Lord.

Believing in Jesus Christ is possessing this glorious life. Believing in Jesus is partaking in the imperishable and incorruptible life and nature of God.

bloodofthelamb:


Why should you believe in Christianity. In other words why should you believe in Jesus Christ? I why tell you why.

Jesus said, "I have come that man might have life and have it more abundantly." (John 10:10). There is a kind of life only Jesus who is the foundation of Christianity can give which you cannot get else where. This is the record that God has given us eternal life (The indestructible life, The imperishable life) and this life is in Jesus Christ the Lord.

Believing in Jesus Christ is possessing this glorious life. Believing in Jesus is partaking in the imperishable and incorruptible life and nature of God.

We will tell people about Jesus so that they may follow us and drink from the fountain of life and goodness. You cannot benefit from what you don't know about.

Christianity is paganism.. And insult and mockery against God...

bloodofthelamb:


I

I share his believe on hell. Like him I do not believe in ever burning fire with ever burning sinners without death.

I believe in hell and I believe sinners who refuse the grace of God will be destroyed there like Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed with fire and brimstone raining down from heaven.

Correction - I should have read what you wrote slowly , instead of replying hastily .

Still , Jesus is not the way to salvation and nothing will happen to those who do not believe in him.

frosbel2:
Correction - I should have read what you wrote slowly , instead of replying hastily .

Still , Jesus is not the way to salvation and nothing will happen to those who do not believe in him.

Jesus certainly is the way to salvation and nothing will happen to those who believe in Him nor to those who accidentally did what He commanded to be done. Both will inherit eternal life

MuttleyLaff:
Jesus certainly is the way to salvation and nothing will happen to those who believe in Him nor to those who accidentally did what He commanded to be done. Both will inherit eternal life

Yeah right - keep dreaming , lol

frosbel2:
Yeah right - keep dreaming , lol

dreaming about reality instead dismayed and having nightmares over the prospect of damnation

MuttleyLaff:
dreaming about reality instead dismayed and having nightmares over the prospect of damnation

Lol, there is not one IOTA of worry or fear about a damnation, not ONE. Does not dwell in my thought process.

I think you are the fanatics who talk about it, strive to avoid it , fear of being part of it and constantly preach about it. You are obsessed with it.

NnennaG6:
Only parts of the synoptic gospels rely on one source, but much of the three are independent. So they are independent but not wholly independent.


Which is contemporary. Remember, the important part is that the authors had access to those who were alive during the time of Christ, and especially those who could confirm or contradict the gospel claims. All four gospels meet this criteria.

First, let me tell you that you are very delightful to read, nne. It's a great pleasure to find another believer who deals with these things reasonably and correctly. It's a real joy to read you. And a great encouragement too.

Then about the above, you are doing extremely well, so I am not looking to spoil that at all, only to encourage you and help you do even better.

The Gospels were written by two apostles of the Lord Jesus and two close associates of another two apostles, one of whom was an able researcher and historian in addition to being a doctor. There is absolutely no reason that anybody should imagine that their accounts were not independent. They were completely so.

There was no council or synod where they sat down and agreed on what to write and, no, none of them copied from the other. There was no need to. Matthew was an apostle. He wrote first. And he documented events he was privy to and which were also revealed to him. Mark sounded a great deal like him but that was because Mark was really written with Peter's guidance. Who doesn't know how close Peter was to the story? In fact, for those who lose their minds over gospels that were left out, it is curious that they don't complain that Peter, with his great visibility in all the Gospels, never wrote one. He didn't, however. But he was the guide for John Mark's work.

Luke was a doctor and a researcher. He worked with Paul and wrote under his authority. Paul was the 12th apostle of the Lord, the replacement for Judas, so he was privy to much more information than we usually credit him with. As an Apostle, he had very much revealed to him about the Lord Jesus and he did his best to preserve it all through his own writings and through Luke too. Luke also did all his own research as an independent writer. It's not like Paul was dictating to him what he must write any more than Peter did with Mark. They were solid sources of information and probably acted in an editorial capacity. But Luke did his research and the Temple still stood at the time providing its own wealth of information, like the genealogies.

The thing that antagonists tend to ignore is that all the writers here were writing about the same Person. Why would it at all be surprising that they sometimes said the exact same things? It was the same Person, wasn't it? Of course, their stories would be similar. But they were also writing from different vantage points, for different reasons and for different target audiences, so, of course, they would also differ in significant ways. So, Matthew would be interested in the Gentile woman's Canaanite-ness while Mark would be more interested in her being Syrophoenician and Luke wouldn't bother with the story at all.

Another example would be what Jesus says on the Cross. Matthew notes that Jesus cried out without articulating what He cried. Mark does the same. Luke notes His prayer committing His spirit into the Hands of the Father and John documents the famous "tetelestai". He said plenty on the Cross and each includes and leaves out what he does for reasons that suit their writing purposes. But those who do not believe and are enemies of the Cross will only stumble over these things.

When people band together to promote a lie, they do their best to "get their stories straight" so that everyone will say that they corroborate each other. But when different people are telling the truth about the same thing, they will have differences that fit their unique perspectives while preserving the sameness of their stories. This is common sense. It is also back of all human investigation. In other words, the Gospels would be a perfect example of how people who are telling the truth sound. But not for antagonists who wish to remove the witness of the Bible if they can.

I know that you know this already but I want to reassure you that the Bible is a very reliable historical document. In fact, there is none more reliable. If you want to know what really happened during the times the Bible was written, read the Bible. You could never go wrong doing so. There are instances enough where historians chose to defer from it in documenting ancient history claiming, for example, that the Nebuchadnezzar in Daniel was wrong for his time. But science, which is a more precise affair, has also made such claims and ended up correcting itself. How much more an imprecise matter like history?

So, don't be intimidated by those who pretend to know what they are talking about and concede ground just because there is a gap in your knowledge. It is NEVER right to oppose the Bible. So, if there is a gap, don't fill it in with the madness of antagonists. Rather, accept the existence of the gap and seek out qualified Bible teachers who can fill it in for you. At Ichthys.com and bibleacademyonline.com, you will find such teachers. The first link is authored by a professor of classics trained in history and classical languages including biblical Hebrew, classical Greek, Aramaic and Latin. That's his day job. But he is also a Bible teacher. The other is a friend of his trained in the same way, I think too. They are some examples.

I am not ashamed at all to recommend them to you. Very much the contrary. I am much honored to recommend them. But I will not insist that there aren't others out there who could help you as well. These two are just the very best I found after searching all my life. In fact, there are none remotely close to them among everything I have seen in person and online. They are what truly prepared Bible teachers are like. Such people can help you fill those gaps in the right way so that you don't lose yourself in the battles we fight everyday in apologetics and elsewhere.

That is not to say that atheists etc are never right. Rather, they are only ever right in the wrong ways when they are right at all. So, when you're not sure, they are completely wrong to look to for help. When you do, it damages your faith in Christ in some way. I have friends whom I still mourn for that. There are also great names in Christian apologists who suffer from such wounds. They hold their own in debates but make very damaging concessions that they appear to be completely unaware of. That is, they have been so thoroughly blindsided in many cases that they even attack their own brethren who remain true in those matters. Please, be better than them.

Again, I am very grateful indeed and very happy for a believer like you. So, take my words as an encouragement and a help. Let them not discourage or offend you. I thank God for the encouragement that He has given those of us here in you.

I should add that your post on interpreting/misinterpreting the Bible, also here on this thread, was incredibly well thought out. The way you laid it out thrilled me. I can't imagine that I could have said it as well. Thank you for letting your light out. I will keep you in my prayers here and I urge you to keep progressing in the Truth as you have been up to this point and better, if at all possible.

May the Grace of our Lord Jesus keep you and preserve you through these evil days.

Horiolah:
pretty much all christians

Exactly. This annoys me so much. Why can't their answers be direct and straight to the point? Why does there have to be angles and longwinding stories to cover up for the loopholes in their beliefs? It makes no sense

XxSabrinaxX:

Exactly. This annoys me so much. Why can't their answers be direct and straight to the point? Why does there have to be angles and longwinding stories to cover up for the loopholes in their beliefs? It makes no sense

i don't even know you guys argue with people who believe in a sky daddy and talking snake.

God's book will have no contradictions, no loopholes and of course a law that's gonna guide humanity till the end..

i dare any xtian to act according to their book, old testament to be precise. jail is gonna be filled in no time.

Horiolah:


i don't even know you guys argue with people who believe in a sky daddy and talking snake.

Then you must understand the frustration of those who argue with people who think there may be sky people and that nothing explodes and becomes everything etc...

Horiolah:
God's book will have no contradictions, no loopholes and of course a law that's gonna guide humanity till the end..

You're exactly right. And the Bible is exactly that. But, of course, there must be allowance made for anyone who doesn't want to believe it to be able to disbelieve, right? Or is your concept of God one of a tyrant who forces everyone to believe everything He says?

Horiolah:
i dare any xtian to act according to their book, old testament to be precise. jail is gonna be filled in no time.

Why should they? Why would we go back to a time when Jesus Christ had not come and died for our sins? Because you want to jail Christians? I'm sure you will find easier excuses on which to jail them if you look hard enough.

[quote author=Ihedinobi3 post=75128617]

You're exactly right. And the Bible is exactly that. But, of course, there must be allowance made for anyone who doesn't want to believe it to be able to disbelieve, right? Or is your concept of God one of a tyrant who forces everyone to believe everything He says?

You are very naive when it comes to bible history and theology, what you said up there just ain't true. The bible is a bundle of contradictions for anyone who cares to carry out a proper analysis of scripture based on contemporary evidence ,literal inspection of the words, statements and messages and scientific validation.

From what I can gather from your statements so far, you are so far down the rabbit hole that I wonder if you will be able to find your way back out.

Why should they? Why would we go back to a time when Jesus Christ had not come and died for our sins? Because you want to jail Christians? I'm sure you will find easier excuses on which to jail them if you look hard enough.

Jesus Christ did not die for the sins of ANYBODY. Even the Jewish scripture debunks this myth. On the subject of Jail or persecution, Christians have been the main persecutors of themselves, the main 'murderer' of themselves, the main cause of agitation between themselves and continues to be the single most danger to itself. Ask those Christians who died at the hands of other Christians for daring to preach a different interpretation of the bible.

XxSabrinaxX:

Exactly. This annoys me so much. Why can't their answers be direct and straight to the point? Why does there have to be angles and longwinding stories to cover up for the loopholes in their beliefs? It makes no sense

Only truth is direct and straight to the point.

Remember that to explain a lie you have to tell another lie and then another, and so on and so forth. The sad thing is that most of the 'captured minds' in Christendom do not have the wherewithal , stamina and exposure , to subject their belief system to proper scrutiny ; the scripture twisters apologists take advantage of this and continually mesmerise them with made up fables and myth, keeping them in line with the 'faith' ( so called ) .

It will take a long time to break the shackles of religion from the minds of men and women. For now the struggle continues.

Ihedinobi3:

Then you must understand the frustration of those who argue with people who think there may be sky people and that nothing explodes and becomes everything etc...



You're exactly right. And the Bible is exactly that. But, of course, there must be allowance made for anyone who doesn't want to believe it to be able to disbelieve, right? Or is your concept of God one of a tyrant who forces everyone to believe everything He says?





Why should they? Why would we go back to a time when Jesus Christ had not come and died for our sins? Because you want to jail Christians? I'm sure you will find easier excuses on which to jail them if you look hard enough.

lol, you should ask what i believe in before making assumptions..

you really need to read the idea behind that nothing in science plus the universe is always expanding, prove of an explosion..

Y'all xtian accept the flight theory- the airplane, the electron theory - your tv, radio wave theory- your phone, refraction theory- glass, but when it comes to evolution and big bang you won't because its against your belief... you don't get to cherry pick scientific theories to suit your belief system.

so yahweh decide to add contradictions to his book cuz he wants unbelievers to have a point ?? clueless.. plus he is not all loving if that is d case.

i think your god is the tyrant here, love me or burn!!


ok so you get to pick just the ten commandment then leave the rest to rot?? you need to research bro..

Horiolah:


lol, you should ask what i believe in before making assumptions..

What assumptions did I make here? Did anything in my statement imply that I was talking about you?

Horiolah:
you really need to read the idea behind that nothing in science plus the universe is always expanding, prove of an explosion..

What is the idea behind that nothing? You don't mean that singularity hypothesis, do you? Because that's not nothing.

What is the universe expanding into? And are you seriously claiming that an explosion is the only way to explain expansion?

Horiolah:
Y'all xtian accept the flight theory- the airplane, the electron theory - your tv, radio wave theory- your phone, refraction theory- glass, but when it comes to evolution and big bang you won't because its against your belief... you don't get to cherry pick scientific theories to suit your belief system.

Actually, we do. Because we're not totally insane bandwagoners, like some people might say. Science makes guesses and tests them. If they work out as expected, voila, TVs, IPhones, DNA and quantum computers happen. Awesome! Nothing wrong with that.

But that doesn't mean that when the very fallible man who worked out a way to explain why stuff gets hot around black bodies tells me that nothing grew hot enough to explode into galaxies speeding away from each other at impossible speeds and that by complete miraculous chance, that led to one viable planet where a primordial soup of proteins just magicked itself into existence and over eons turned into a bewildering variety of plant and animal life, I won't tell him that he's gone and lost his mind. He certainly has. And such a person has absolutely no right to laugh when I talk about God.

Horiolah:
so yahweh decide to add contradictions to his book cuz he wants unbelievers to have a point ?? clueless.. plus he is not all loving if that is d case.

No, you decided to add that, Horiolah. There are no contradictions at all. Just a lot of difficult things to understand. Just like, say, astrophysics or quantum mechanics or neurobiology. You know, stuff like that. You have to make the time and energy commitment to figure it out. So, you would actually want to do that before you ever did it.

That means that the person in question will always have to decide that it is worth it to them to bother with the Bible. If they decide that it is not, well, there's their loss.

Horiolah:
i think your god is the tyrant here, love me or burn!!

It's more "obey me or burn" but you're not wrong.
You think that He should leave you to run wild in His Creation ruining things as you please? I am sure you don't think so. A tyrant God would force you to do his bidding. You wouldn't be able to choose not to. But this is a God Who creates multiple possibilities with their right conclusions and outcomes so that it is entirely within your control what you get out of your relationship with Him.

If you submit to Him, well then, you get all of His goodwill and His good things without limit. If you spit in His face, why then, you get all His Anger instead. Should He be nice to you when you insult Him?

Horiolah:
ok so you get to pick just the ten commandment then leave the rest to rot?? you need to research bro..

What?!

frosbel2:


Only truth is direct and straight to the point.

Remember that to explain a lie you have to tell another lie and then another, and so on and so forth. The sad thing is that most of the 'captured minds' in Christendom do not have the wherewithal , stamina and exposure , to subject their belief system to proper scrutiny ; the scripture twisters apologists take advantage of this and continually mesmerise them with made up fables and myth, keeping them in line with the 'faith' ( so called ) .

It will take a long time to break the shackles of religion from the minds of men and women. For now the struggle continues.

Says the man who says that truth is subjective.

Frosbel, I don't know anyone in all my interactions on Nairaland who is as confused as you.

Unless the God of all GRACE shows you MERCY and Releases HIS GRACE from the THRONE OF GRACE you can never ACCEPT THE GOSPEL and YOU CAN NEVER BECOME A CHRISTIAN thus "No one can come to me UNLESS My Father draws him/her" (John 6:44) and it is possible that GRACE has been released to you but you FAILED TO USE GRACE thus "Looking diligently lest any man FAIL of the GRACE OF GOD; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled" {Hebrews 12:15 KJV}. I pray that the God of all grace may show you HIS MERCY AND RELEASE GRACE to help you in this time of need from HIS THRONE OF GRACE by the UNLIMITED MANIFESTATIONS OF HIS HOLY SPIRIT in JESUS MIGHTY NAME. AMEN.

[quote author=Ihedinobi3 post=75131864]

No, you decided to add that, Horiolah. There are no contradictions at all. Just a lot of difficult things to understand.

The underlined is so hilarious.

Simple message of salvation - MY FOOT.

Keep deceiving yourself.

It's more "obey me or burn" but you're not wrong.

Good, I am happy you know he is not wrong. Just like Al Calpone demands complete allegiance from his crew through the barrel of a gun, your Jesus is so insecure from losing his 'children' that he demands complete allegiance from them through the concept of eternal burning. Jesus and Al Capone are both insane and they both deserve all the scorn coming their way.

You think that He should leave you to run wild in His Creation ruining things as you please? I am sure you don't think so. A tyrant God would force you to do his bidding. You wouldn't be able to choose not to. But this is a God Who creates multiple possibilities with their right conclusions and outcomes so that it is entirely within your control what you get out of your relationship with Him

Let's engage 'grey matter ' for a small moment. Who in their right minds will not want to do the right thing under the threat of eternal burning ? People under torture will even implicate their own family members to save themselves, talk less of the individual. Asking someone to give you their money willingly with a gun in your hand ( not pointed at them ) is not free will , it is working against their will and forcing them to do something which under normal circumstances they will not do.

Your god is the most insecure being on this planet, he cannot gain followers without horrible threats and his love is meaningless because it offers no viable alternative.

I often use this analogy with my children. It goes like this - I say to my first Son - " I love you so much for your obedience and you have been such a goodly child ". To my second Son, I say " you wicked, disobedient child, you are wicked and grossly evil " and while I make this statement to him , I clobber him to near death for his disobedience, with blood oozing all over this body. What do you think my 'goodly son' will do ? I will tell you what he will do , he will think to himself " daddy is a sadistic lunatic, a monster, tyrant , screw his love for me , he wants to kill my brother whom I love , F his love " , and he will make plans to save his brother and distance himself from me.

But unlike my goodly son who hates to see his brother suffer, Christians will look down from heaven in GLEE and SCORN at the eternal torment, torture and roasting of flesh , including that of their family members and still be praising Jesus with adoring love and worship. You guys need to be in North Korea, that's where your ilk belong. A completely insane bunch of arrogant religious fanatics.

If you submit to Him, well then, you get all of His goodwill and His good things without limit. If you spit in His face, why then, you get all His Anger instead. Should He be nice to you when you insult Him?

I will spit in the face of your Jesus and there is NOTHING he can do to me. He is not GOD, was not GOD and never will be GOD.

Take your Roman Pagan bullshit and bury in in the ground - nobody wants to see it or smell it.

Ihedinobi3:

Says the man who says that truth is subjective.

Frosbel, I don't know anyone in all my interactions on Nairaland who is as confused as you.

Liar Scripture twister calling me confused , lol. Wonders will never end.

Frosbel2, even if I am inclined to discussing any given issue with you, I won't whenever I see that quoting you is going to be a pain. Or else I will reply your without quoting you. The way you quote posts sometimes makes any quoting of your own post produce a null bracket. So, try to fix that.

frosbel2:


Liar Scripture twister calling me confused , lol. Wonders will never end.

What should I call you when you claim that truth is relative and then spend posts trying to prove that Jesus is not the Truth and that truth is direct and straightforward? And that's only one example of your confusion. It's really massive. And entrenched.

Ihedinobi3:

Then you must understand the frustration of those who argue with people who think there may be sky people and that nothing explodes and becomes everything etc...

How many times do you need to be corrected on this "nothing explodes and becomes everything" nonsense you guys keep bringing up? First off Atheism has nothing to do with origin of the universe, can that little point stick to your brain please?

Second, BB cosmology which is where you get the "explodes" (another error, there was no explosion, it was a rapid expansion but for laymen the explosion idea makes it vivid) from does not say "nothing explodes and becomes everything".

Can these simple points guide you and prevent you from typing nonsense next time? Please?

LordReed:


How many times do you need to be corrected on this "nothing explodes and becomes everything" nonsense you guys keep bringing up? First off Atheism has nothing to do with origin of the universe, can that little point stick to your brain please?

Second, BB cosmology which is where you get the "explodes" (another error, there was no explosion, it was a rapid expansion but for laymen the explosion idea makes it vivid) from does not say "nothing explodes and becomes everything".

Can these simple points guide you and prevent you from typing nonsense next time? Please?

See? And if we Christians actually try to explain what the Bible says, you start talking nonsense about being direct and straightforward.

First off, I did not address atheism. I addressed "people who think that...nothing explodes and becomes everything". Why did you assume that I was restricting it to atheists? It IS a popular atheistic position but some deists hold it too as do some Christians as well.

Second, what is explosion if not rapid expansion?

Ihedinobi3:

What assumptions did I make here? Did anything in my statement imply that I was talking about you?



What is the idea behind that nothing? You don't mean that singularity hypothesis, do you? Because that's not nothing.

What is the universe expanding into? And are you seriously claiming that an explosion is the only way to explain expansion?



Actually, we do. Because we're not totally insane bandwagoners, like some people might say. Science makes guesses and tests them. If they work out as expected, voila, TVs, IPhones, DNA and quantum computers happen. Awesome! Nothing wrong with that.

But that doesn't mean that when the very fallible man who worked out a way to explain why stuff gets hot around black bodies tells me that nothing grew hot enough to explode into galaxies speeding away from each other at impossible speeds and that by complete miraculous chance, that led to one viable planet where a primordial soup of proteins just magicked itself into existence and over eons turned into a bewildering variety of plant and animal life, I won't tell him that he's gone and lost his mind. He certainly has. And such a person has absolutely no right to laugh when I talk about God.



No, you decided to add that, Horiolah. There are no contradictions at all. Just a lot of difficult things to understand. Just like, say, astrophysics or quantum mechanics or neurobiology. You know, stuff like that. You have to make the time and energy commitment to figure it out. So, you would actually want to do that before you ever did it.

That means that the person in question will always have to decide that it is worth it to them to bother with the Bible. If they decide that it is not, well, there's their loss.



It's more "obey me or burn" but you're not wrong.
You think that He should leave you to run wild in His Creation ruining things as you please? I am sure you don't think so. A tyrant God would force you to do his bidding. You wouldn't be able to choose not to. But this is a God Who creates multiple possibilities with their right conclusions and outcomes so that it is entirely within your control what you get out of your relationship with Him.

If you submit to Him, well then, you get all of His goodwill and His good things without limit. If you spit in His face, why then, you get all His Anger instead. Should He be nice to you when you insult Him?


What?!

ok so you think your god came from nothing to create your father from clay then your mother from his rib?? the thing is both idea sounds crazy but one came from years of research and there are some evidence of it, while yours is written by men who don't knw sh*t.

here is a question, did your god also create andromeda galaxy?? if yes, for what reason?? perhaps for it to collide with ours... loving god

Ihedinobi3:

See? And if we Christians actually try to explain what the Bible says, you start talking nonsense about being direct and straightforward.

First off, I did not address atheism. I addressed "people who think that...nothing explodes and becomes everything". Why did you assume that I was restricting it to atheists? It IS a popular atheistic position but some deists hold it too as do some Christians as well.

Second, what is explosion if not rapid expansion?

If ever I make a straw man feel free to point it out, as I am sure you will.

Ah ok sorry, I thought you were addressing atheists however it still doesn't make it an atheistic position because the only position addressed by atheism is the one about gods, nothing else.

Expansions are not always preceded by an explosion. Take a balloon for example, you can rapidly expand it without any explosion. That should be the idea that is conveyed but because the word bang is used the explosion idea is what people think of instead.

Horiolah:


ok so you think your god came from nothing to create your father from clay then your mother from his rib?? the thing is both idea sounds crazy but one came from years of research and there are some evidence of it, while yours is written by men who don't knw sh*t.

here is a question, did your god also create andromeda galaxy?? if yes, for what reason?? perhaps for it to collide with ours... loving god

First of all, it is not my position that God ever came from nothing. He didn't "come". He always was, always is and always will be. That is the meaning of God as a term.

Second, you are telling me that after years of research, I should be content to hear that nothing exploded into everything. Do you even understand what you are asking me to do? I would be throwing good money after bad. Better to stick with something that makes more sense even if I didn't have to build miles of colliders to prove it, no?

Third, why on earth are you making these assumptions about people you never met or knew in any way? You have no clue what they knew. That we have technology these days that were not even imagined two thousand years ago does not really mean that we are smarter. It just means that we know different things than the people of that time knew. Much knowledge is lost over time, Oga. You have no idea what those people knew. And that makes your claim an argument from silence.

Fourth, no, He didn't. It just exploded into existence all by itself. Why are you arguing like this? Of course, He created it along with the rest of the Universe. And I don't know why beyond that He decided to. Is that a problem for you?