live4dgospel:

Free will is not what you can get from your secular dictionary alone. I think I've explained everything you need to know. I gave you a baby instance so you can understand the condition of Adam in the beginning. And I repeat babies have free will even from their mothers' wombs, I have restrained from quoting Scripture for you. You depend on your secular dictionary and logic to judge this case but you restrained me from using my Bible which is my power. How unjust could this be? However, I know that you have heard that God created man and angels with free will, in fact that was why Lucifer chose to stand against God because he had a free will. Now tell me since you have heard that God gave man free will, when does that free will start? Do you start to have the free will only when you are old enough? What age could you be to say that you are enough to have the Free Will? It's a known fact that human beings learn till they are old with grey hair and die. That's, there are things you do now and you think it's right but as grow up you will discover it is actually wrong and you will try to amend it. If freewill is based on knowledge of good and evil, then how old will one be to be able to receive the freewill from God? Can't you still see the darkness in your understanding?

Lol, I can't get freewill from the dictionary but I can get it from you? Lmao .

Do you even realize that freewill is an English word? You are so lost in your head bro. Why can't you just exercise logic for once?
Babies don't have freewill, they don't make decisions and choices. Just throw that away and think like a man.

So you want to use the bible to define and explain the English word freewill but you're ready to ignore the real book meant for understanding the word. Lol
Please keep refraining yourself from clogging here with bible verses.
I trust the dictionary more than your book of lies, the bible. It's a story book for kids and I don't want kids to come here and disturb my peace. If you can't defend your points with logic, have a nice day. Your logic is even weak. I am disappointed you said babies have freewill, I mean what kind of reasoning is that?

The bible is your power, well the dictionary is not my own power. We are both free to use it. So, there's no injustice here. Use logic, use your mind. You have the capacity. Except if you don't.

I have heard the fairy tales of God creating man and angels, but it goes beyond just hearing. Where's the proof? The reason we are here is to reveal that the story is a badly written fiction. Don't you get that?

Freewill in terms of religion is a stupid notion that cannot stand when you use your head to reason it out. Freewill starts when a human being can make decisions on their own without being coerced. It's not necessarily linked with age or anything. I have defined it for you up there. Read it again.

You're not even following the argument, because if you are you won't be asking me silly questions like when do people get freewill from God. Who is God? Is that a real entity or a made up one? Do you have proof that such entity exists? Nobody gets freewill from any God, there was no garden of Eden, there was no Adam and Eve, there was no Lucifer. Those are the lies of the garden of Eden. Or you didn't even read the topic of the thread?

Use your head!

I wrote a A Child's View in opposition to your logical view because I really don't see any reason to get the view you suggest from the book.

Akin1212:
Simple questions require simple answers. Logical questions require logical answers. If you're going to do this, don't clog this thread with bible verses or verses from the quran. This logic is very straightforward.


Before Adam and Eve ate from the forbidden tree, they didn't know anything called evil, we can as well say they didn't know good too. They were just zombies.

The instruction given to them by God was that, if they eat from the tree, they will acquire the knowledge of good and evil, in other words, they will know what is bad and also know what is good and that they will die. They didn't even know that death is bad neither did they know that disobedience is bad, since they had not eaten from the tree.

Now, how were they supposed to process that death or disobedience were bad things and make the decision on something they had no knowledge of?
If you bring up the excuse that Satan deceived them, then how were they supposed to know that Satan was deceiving them, were they warned to beware of Satan?

If you have freewill, you must have knowledge of good and evil before you can process deceit, do good or do evil. You cannot commit sin if you don't have the knowledge of good and evil. So where did the concept of the original sin come from? Did they commit the sin before having the knowledge of good and evil? It does not add up.

Theists, think deeply for once in your lives.

Akin1212:


Lol, I can't get freewill from the dictionary but I can get it from you? Lmao .

Do you even realize that freewill is an English word? You are so lost in your head bro. Why can't you just exercise logic for once?
Babies don't have freewill, they don't make decisions and choices. Just throw that away and think like a man.

So you want to use the bible to define and explain the English word freewill but you're ready to ignore the real book meant for understanding the word. Lol
Please keep refraining yourself from clogging here with bible verses.
I trust the dictionary more than your book of lies, the bible. It's a story book for kids and I don't want kids to come here and disturb my peace. If you can't defend your points with logic, have a nice day. Your logic is even weak. I am disappointed you said babies have freewill, I mean what kind of reasoning is that?

The bible is your power, well the dictionary is not my own power. We are both free to use it. So, there's no injustice here. Use logic, use your mind. You have the capacity. Except if you don't.

I have heard the fairy tales of God creating man and angels, but it goes beyond just hearing. Where's the proof? The reason we are here is to reveal that the story is a badly written fiction. Don't you get that?

Freewill in terms of religion is a stupid notion that cannot stand when you use your head to reason it out. Freewill starts when a human being can make decisions on their own without being coerced. It's not necessarily linked with age or anything. I have defined it for you up there. Read it again.

You're not even following the argument, because if you are you won't be asking me silly questions like when do people get freewill from God. Who is God? Is that a real entity or a made up one? Do you have proof that such entity exists? Nobody gets freewill from any God, there was no garden of Eden, there was no Adam and Eve, there was no Lucifer. Those are the lies of the garden of Eden. Or you didn't even read the topic of the thread?

Use your head!

I don't know how you want me follow logic with you when you don't even believe in the existence of God. I will back off from this argument but before I draw my curtain on this talk, let me summarize your errors and provide corrections to them:

(1) You think freewill and knowledge of good and evil are interwoven but they are totally different concepts.

(2) You think God was unjust for punishing Adam and Eve but He was just because He has given them the freewill and knowledge of good and evil.

(3) You think one can have knowledge of good and evil only when one is old enough to discern what was good and evil by oneself but that is not the case. God actually created Adam with free will and as a result all the Adam's offsprings have freewill. So even babies actually have freewill.

(4) Finally and most importantly, you think Adam and Eve were zombies before their fall but that is not the case at all. If they were zombies God couldn't have given punishment to them. Rather Adam, Eve and angels had freewill and as well the knowledge of good and evil. I mean before their fall Adam and Eve actually knew what was good and what was evil and they knew it perfectly. But their knowledge of good and evil was absolutely based on the standard established God i.e they knew that God is righteous, holy and cannot lie, so they knew very well whatever God said was good was good and whatever He said was evil was evil. That was the only standard prior to the fall of man, after the fall man, another standard for judging what was good and evil was created by man.
Stop shouting logic, logic, logic when you can't even understand and apply simple logic. There is a straight path to understand this logic but you have chosen to swim in the ocean of confusion. I'll leave you here.

Akin1212:


You listed your points numerically and I understood them perfectly. You said in point 1 that God told them what was good and what was bad. From God's standard of good and bad.


And in point 2 Satan came and told them another thing.

Now, as people who didn't know good or bad on their own standards, how were they supposed to decide correctly who was saying what's good and what's bad between God and Satan?

Were they supposed to adhere to God's instructions as zombies, even though they had freewill as claimed by you? Or were they supposed to use the freewill God gave them in the first place although they didn't know they were doing so? Because in making decisions to eat from the tree of knowledge, they might think they are doing themselves a favor even though they could not discern it due to lack of the knowledge of evil and good. They were only listening to two voices.

You keep repeating that they lacked the knowledge of good and evil. That makes it hard for me to understand your point. If you understand that they have known Gods own standard of good and bad, that is the good and evil we are talking about.

The Tree stood for God's authority to set standard of good and evil. By eating of it, you have attacked that authority, and thus, you are now setting your own standard of good and evil. By obeying what God said even without having to face the consequences (death), you will show God that you ove Him for all He has done for you, and that they(Adam and Eve) would accept His rulership over them. And God had stated that a disobedience would bring forth death. It was clear.

They would not have to miraculously peer through Satan, (who spoke through the serpent) to know he was lying. What should guide whom to obey is: a) who had giving you all you have, including your beautiful spouse? God. b) did the serpent claim to be a higher God, who can at least know more than the one who gave me the instruction? Nope. c) Has He treated me bad before? Nope. So why disobey Him without thinking things through? Why is satan telling me to eat and be like God, why hasn't he eating the fruit and be like God himself? In other words, if this fruit gives these advantage, why shouldn't he go for it first? They needed to just think up.

Then you have thought wrong. When people get freewill, they have equal propensity to obey as to disobey. Like equal chances, they can CHOOSE to obey or to disobey. You don't expect someone who has freewill to obey and you don't expect them to disobey, whatever they do is their own choice. There is zero compulsion, you cannot instruct them. When you give instruction to people you are not expecting them to use freewill. Instructions are statements of command.

You seem to misunderstand what it means to be perfect. A perfect person does not have any imperfect inclination as we humans do today. I believe scientifically, it is a fact that a trait could be passed through genes. I do have some trait that I inherited from my parents. If my father was a womanizer, am likely to get that trait. The same is true if my Dad was a kleptomaniac. Some environmental factors could be transmitted to our children. If am wrong, let me know.

Now, if the above is true, you ll see that we keep getting imperfect inclinations as the generation increases. What I want to say is, we are more inclined towards wrong than right because we inherited such bad traits, and our environment have become bad. A perfect person never had such a history, no such bad inclination. He was not born with any bad trait as we are.

Please don't make bold claims about angels obeying God for millions of years. It's not even logical. Have you seen angel before? Can you even sketch the picture of one. We are discussing reality and you're bringing fictional characters. Although God is also a fictional character, perhaps my discussion with you about God is giving you the freedom of introducing other fairies into the fray? I am only trying to show you that what you believe is fiction. My position is based on hypothesis - that is, If God exists.

We are discussing Adam and Eve, Gods instruction to them. You do see them as fictional characters. Yet your question is written in a book that does not claim to be fictional but realility. If you assume that God exist for the sake of argument, and that Adam and Eve does too, you should also assume that what is recorded there are true and real. If not, your argument won't be consistent. Assume that what one part said is true and the other is not, you won't give a fair and just scrutiny.

Again, remember that your assumption is just your opinion and conviction, not necessarily the truth. You can't disprove Gods existence in your scientific lab. Secondly, you are not an authority to truth. Thirdly, you are not omniscient. Fourthly, that you do not accept something as truth, does not mean that it isn't true. Your belief or disbelief doesn't change the truth, that is, truth is not your rear shadow that follows you where ever your mind gravitate.

We need to be aware of our limitations, and view others opinion with open-mind. That's reasonable IMO.

What are you even talking about?
If Adam and Eve didn't eat from the tree in the garden of Eden, what was God's plan? Did his plan included using freewill to worship him? NO!
Would Adam and Eve ever knew they were naked? NO!
Would Adam and Eve ever be chased out of the garden of Eden? NO!
What was the point of giving people freewill if you want them to be obedient? You haven't answered this question since antiquity.

If God gave humans freewill so that they can use it to worship him, he as well knew that not all people would worship him since they have freewill. Are you saying he knew what the freewill will cause and yet went ahead so he can derive pleasure in punishing the ones who don't worship him?

It's like giving your son money and telling him he can buy whatever he wants, but you want him to buy clothes. But since you already said he can buy whatever he wants, he bought a phone. Will you punish him for buying the phone? You're to blame for giving him the freedom to buy what he wants. You can't blame the son for buying the phone because you already said he can buy what he wants.

And that is exactly what we are saying here. The concept of a God is an illusion and the story of the garden of Eden is the onset of the lies. Think deeply about it.

1Pet 2:16 helps us to see that God wanted Adam and Eve to use there freedom to be under His authority.

Why give freedom if you wanted them to obey you? I have answered that question before. Sorry, if you didn't get it. God can make them like obedient robots, but what joy could He derive if they say "our loving father, we give our whole life to serve just you. We love you dearly" if such expressions stems from how they were programmed? If they were in such state without freewill, would that be in Gods image? Every project has an objective. Gods objective was not to create people without freewill. No, rather to create those who will use there freewill to serve Him. That worship would be meaningful, it will stem from the heart not from a prerecorded mind. Check well, I think I did answer the question before. If it is not clear let me know.

Let's give a soft touch to your illustration. Let's assume that the father had added "well, if you buy any other thing, not a cloth, you will die." perhaps because the father wouldn't give her any other money, not even feeding money. That would be her choice to make. If she buys phone, she would remember, that she would enjoy the phone, but she would die.

For Adam and Eve, God was clear, your decision to eat the fruit will make me withdraw my life sustaining power. You will die. It is your choice to be independent, but so are the consequences.

1[i]. Does God want everyone to serve him, yes or no?[/i]
If yes, why didn't he make them zombies, puppets or robots so that he would achieve that aim?

If no, then why punish those who don't since he doesn't even want everyone to worship him in the first place?

I think I have answered that. Puppets worship is programmed. Such worship is not what He wants to derive from the human family.

2. If God wants us to be in his own image, then he probably wants us to have freewill and do whatever we like, whatever feels good to us and not to him.

I don't have that understanding from what I gather from His word. He gave an instruction and stated that if they disobey, it means death for them. Logically, he wanted them to use there freewill to obey Him, and Him alone. If not, He won't bring death as a punishment. It is like a deterrent IMO.

3. I tell you bro, according to what you believe, God derives more joy in seeing people punished. If not he wouldn't tell them they can do whatever they want by giving them freewill.

It's all mumbo jumbo, I just hope you will see it someday. I wish you can start thinking outside of faith. Logic is priceless yet free. Use it sometimes.

He doesn't derive joy in seeing people punished. If not, He wouldn't have to make provision through which He could forgive the sins of those who wish to change.

God created us with logic, He knew it was good. And His directions are logically good. Humans setting many contradictory laws never achieves unity and world peace. Human laws are faulty. Morality is objective, and with differing human laws and individual varying life principles, we see that we can never achieve moral objectivity. Logically, we need someone with a higher intellect and experience to tell us what is true morals and we all, not just some countries, but we all will follow it.

Believe it or not, you can never be totally free. Laws of different govts are there to limit your freedom. What do I draw from that? I have to come to see that govts themselves have realised that you just can't allow individuals to do as they just want to, because they will end up killing themselves or even harming someone else, thereby limiting other people's freedom.

The lesson: different human laws proves that it is illogical for everybody to have TOTAL freedom to do as they wish. They need a guide. Since these governmental guides differ from country to country, even sometimes appear unjust and discriminatory, we need one GUIDE for the universal family, and from an entity higher than man.

Don't worry, keep asking good questions with open-mind. You will soon realise that I have once gone through that memory lane before. And come to see that there is a creator, and life is purposeless without Him. Only that you should not take these questions as a joke. It means your life. and do not let pride or shame stop you from taken a step if you see a reasonable answer. Always seat and ruminate on life questions and keep searching and asking. You will find if you are humble and do have an open-mind. If your mind is already made up, pls stop asking. Of course, if I observe that, I will just save my time.

MISHIGAS!

Akin1212:
Simple questions require simple answers.

. PROVERBS 1:20-22.

20.Wisdom crieth without;
She uttereth Her Voice
in the streets:
21. She crieth
in the chief place
of concourse,
in the openings of the gates:
in the city She uttereth her Words,
Saying,

22. "How long,
ye simple ones,
will ye love simplicity?
And the Scorners
delight in their scorning,
and Fools hate Knowledge?

WHAT IS LIFE?
WHAT IS MEST?
HOW IS MEMORY STORED?
WHERE DOES DNA CODING COME FROM?
HOW ARE PHONE CREDIT NUMBERS PRINTED, SO THAT YOU DON'T GET FREE CREDIT WITH MISDIALS?
WHAT HAPPENS AT DEATH?

You only say this to suit yourself, now. When the "simple answers" do not suit you, you reject them.

Akin1212:
Logical questions require logical answers. If you're going to do this, don't clog this thread with bible verses or verses from the quran. This logic is very straightforward.

[Recycled Post:]

. PROVERBS 1:20-22.

THE THREE FACTORS OF LEARNING. -L. Ron Hubbard.

1. THE STUDENTS MUST CONFRONT THE PHYSICAL EXAMPLES OF WHATEVER IS BEING TAUGHT.

Otherwise it is impossible for the teachers to know that their students have understood the teaching, and impossible for the students to know what is being taught to them.

2. THE LEARNING CURVE MUST BE SMOOTH AND UNBROKEN, WITHOUT LOOPS NOR REVERSES, AND ALWAYS BEGIN FROM THE BEGINNING.

The learning curve must not be too steep.

3. EACH AND EVERY TECHNICAL TERM JARGON MUST BE THOROUGHLY DEFINED.

Nomenclature must be defined using the standard, agreed-upon Technical Manuals, Textbooks, and Dictionaries.

[See: BASIC STUDY MANUAL, by L. Ron Hubbard.
THE STUDENT HAT, by L. Ron Hubbard.
THE STUDY TAPES, by L. Ron Hubbard.]

[End of Recycled Post.]

This is what constitutes LOGICAL EDUCATIVE COMMUNICATION.

Atheists are typically unable to communicate logically. They abandon all of these factors, so that they can call The Bible and Its God "illogical," "nonsensical," and "FOOLISH."

Akin1212:
Before Adam and Eve ate from the forbidden tree, they didn't know anything called evil, we can as well say they didn't know good too. They were just zombies.

You have to be very stupid to think that Adam and Eve were "ZOMBIES."

. GENESIS 2:19.

19. And out of the ground
The LORD God formed
every Beast of the Field,
and every Fowl of the Air;
and brought them unto Adam
to see what he would call them:
and whatsoever Adam called
every living creature,
that was the name thereof.

. GENESIS 3:6.

6. And when the
Woman saw that
the Tree was good for food,
and that it was pleasant
to the eyes,
and a Tree to be desired
to make one wise,
she took of the Fruit thereof,
and did eat,
and gave also
unto her husband with her;
and he did eat.

YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER AND GRANDPARENTS, AND GREAT-GRANDPARENTS, AND GREAT-GREAT GRANDPARENTS WERE ZUVEMBI!

You wife and children will be ZOMBIES!

You who descended from an Ape-like Hominid- but not as far as the Chimpanzees!

ADAM AND EVE WERE NOT "ZOMBIES!

Adam named all the Animals God created to show him in The Garden of Eden- and remembered all of the names, and taught them to his children!

Eve analyzed the properties of The Fruit of The Tree of The Knowledge of Good and Evil JUST BY LOOKING AT IT!

Our SHAMANISTIC HERBALISTS train for YEARS to achieve that.

Akin1212:
The instruction given to them by God was that, if they eat from the tree, they will acquire the knowledge of good and evil, in other words, they will know what is bad and also know what is good and that they will die. They didn't even know that death is bad neither did they know that disobedience is bad, since they had not eaten from the tree.

The simpleminded fool will, of course, overlook THE FIRST COMMANDMENT given to Adam and Eve and only focus on the Oyinbo Sunday School Indoctrination story.

. GENESIS 1:26-28.

26. And God Said,

"Let us make Man in Our Image,
after Our Likeness:
and let them have Dominion
over the Fish of the Sea,
and over the Fowl of the Air,
and over the Cattle,
and over all the Earth,
and over every creeping thing
that creepeth upon the Earth."

27. So God created Man
in His Own Image,
in The Image of God
created He him;
male and female
created He them.
28. And God Blessed them,
and God Said unto them,

"Be fruitful, and multiply,
and replenish the Earth,
and subdue It:
and have Dominion
over the Fish of the Sea,
and over the Fowl of the Air,
and over every Living Thing
that moveth upon the Earth."

THIS WAS THE SIGNIFICANT COMMANDMENT THAT ADAM AND EVE BROKE:

They gave up DOMINION over the Earth to THE SERPENT.

Dominion is like a CURSOR that LABELS the Entity who has it.

In a Group of people it rests on the Leader. When people talk together, a Spirit Energy Glow goes to the person whose turn to address the gathering next is.

[See: THE FIRE FROM WITHIN, by Carlos Castaneda.
THE CELESTINE PROPHECY, by James Redfield.]

When Adam and Eve subordinated themselves to The Serpent, the CROWN OF DOMINION when to HIM.

Akin1212:

Now, how were they supposed to process that death or disobedience were bad things and make the decision on something they had no knowledge of?

You are stupid to suppose that that was an issue.

They were supposed to be dominant over the Earth, Its creatures, and Its produce: THEY GAVE THAT UP BY TAKING THE SERPENT'S SUGGESTION TO DISOBEY GOD.

Adam did not know that he was subordinating himself to the Serpent. He thought subordinating himself to his wife, whom God had brought to him would absolve him of any responsibility for breaking God's Commandments.

People still use that Logic today:

EVERYBODY KNOWS THAT YESHUA IS THE LORD OF THE CHURCH.

He said:

. MATTHEW 7:21.

21. "Not every one
that saith unto me,
'Lord, Lord,' shall enter into
The Kingdom of Heaven;
but He that doeth
The Will of my Father
Which is in Heaven."

BUT PAUL SAID TO THE EFFECT THAT THE WILL OF GOD DID NOT MATTER- THAT IF YOU CALLED ON THE NAME OF THE LORD, NO MATTER WHAT YOU DID, YOU WILL BE SAVED!

. ROMANS 10:13.

13. For whosoever shall call
upon The Name of The Lord
shall be Saved.

WHY SHOULD ANYONE BELIEVE PAUL?

Well, because he SAID that LORD YESHUA sent him to be OUR TEACHER, that's why!

. MATTHEW 23:1-15.

THEN Spake Jesus
to the multitude,
and to his Disciples,

2. Saying,
"The scribes and the Pharisees
sit in Moses' seat:
3. "All therefore whatsoever
they bid you observe,
that observe and do;
but do not ye
after their works:
for they say, and do not.
4. "For they bind
heavy burdens
and grievous to be borne,
and lay them on men's shoulders;
but they themselves
will not move them
with one of their fingers.
5. "But all their works
they do for to be seen of men:
they make broad their phylacteries,
and enlarge the borders of their garments,
6. "And love the Uppermost Rooms at feasts,
and the Chief Seats in the Synagogues,
7. "And greetings in the markets,
and to be called of men, 'Rabbi, Rabbi.'
8. "But be not ye called 'Rabbi:'
for one is your Master, even Christ;
and all ye are Brethren.
9. "And call no man your father upon the Earth:
for one is your Father,
Which is in Heaven.
10. "Neither be ye called masters:
for one is your Master,
even Christ.
11. "But he that is greatest among you
shall be your servant.
12. "And whosoever shall
exalt himself
shall be abased;
and he that shall
humble himself
shall be exalted.
13. "But woe unto you,
scribes and Pharisees,
Hypocrites!
for ye shut up
The Kingdom of Heaven
against men:
for ye neither go in yourselves,
neither suffer ye them
that are entering to go in.
14. "Woe unto you,
scribes and Pharisees,
Hypocrites!
For ye devour widows' houses,
and for a pretence
make long prayer:
therefore ye shall receive
The Greater Damnation.
15. "Woe unto you,
scribes and Pharisees,
Hypocrites!
for ye compass Sea and Land
to make one proselyte,
and when he is made,
ye make him
twofold more
The Child of Hell
than yourselves."

LORD YESHUA EXPLICITLY STATED THAT THE ONLY MASTER OF THE CHURCH WAS HIM: HOW COULD HE HAVE MADE IT ANY CLEARER?

How could anyone possibly misunderstand or misinterpret such an explicit instruction?

.. LUKE 16:1-15.

AND he said also unto his Disciples,

"There was a certain rich man,
which had a steward;
and the same was accused unto him
that he had wasted his goods.
2. "And he called him,
and said unto him,

'HOW IS IT THAT
I HEAR THIS OF THEE?
GIVE AN ACCOUNT
OF THY STEWARDSHIP;
FOR THOU MAYEST BE
NO LONGER STEWARD.'

3. "Then the steward said
within himself,

'WHAT SHALL I DO?
FOR MY LORD
TAKETH AWAY FROM ME
THE STEWARDSHIP:
I CANNOT DIG,
TO BEG I AM ASHAMED.
4. 'I AM RESOLVED WHAT TO DO,
THAT, WHEN I AM
PUT OUT OF THE STEWARDSHIP,
THEY MAY RECEIVE ME
INTO THEIR HOUSES.'

5. "So he called every one
of his lord's debtors unto him,
and said unto the first,

'HOW MUCH OWEST THOU
UNTO MY LORD?'

6. "And he said,

'AN HUNDRED MEASURES OF OIL.'

And he said unto him,

'TAKE THY BILL,
AND SIT DOWN QUICKLY,
AND WRITE FIFTY.'

7. "Then said he to another,

'AND HOW MUCH
OWEST THOU?'

And he said,

'AN HUNDRED MEASURES OF WHEAT.'

And he said unto him,

'TAKE THY BILL,
AND WRITE FOURSCORE.'

8. "And the lord commended
the Unjust Steward,
because he had done wisely:
for the Children of this World
are in their Generation
wiser than the Children of Light.
9. "And I Say unto you,

'MAKE TO YOURSELVES FRIENDS
OF THE MAMMON
OF UNRIGHTEOUSNESS;
THAT, WHEN YE FAIL,
THEY MAY RECIEVE YOU
INTO EVERLASTING HABITATIONS.'

10. "He that is Faithful
in that which is Least
is Faithful also in Much:
and he that is Unjust in the Least
is Unjust also in Much.
11. "If therefore ye have not been
Faithful in the Unrighteous Mammon,
who will commit to your trust
The True Riches?
12. "And if ye have not
been Faithful
in that which is
another man's,
who shall give you
that which is your own?
13. "No Servant can
serve two Masters:
for either he will hate the one,
and love the other;
or else he will hold to the one,
and despise the other.
Ye cannot serve God and Mammon."

14. And the Pharisees also,
who were Covetous,
heard all these things,
and they derided him.
15. And he Said unto them,

"Ye are they
which justify yourselves
before Men;
but God knoweth
your hearts:
for that which is
Highly Esteemed amongst Men
is Abomination
in The Sight of God."

BUT THEY DID.

Paul said that he was ANOTHER MASTER- and the CORRUPT HYPOCRITES just accepted it!

Akin1212:
If you bring up the excuse that Satan deceived them, then how were they supposed to know that Satan was deceiving them, were they warned to beware of Satan?

ADAM AND EVE WERE INSTRUCTED TO SUBDUE THE EARTH AND ITS CREATURES.

That included themselves.

To break God's Commandments, they had to yield to their appetites.

THAT WAS THE SIN.

Akin1212:
If you have freewill, you must have knowledge of good and evil before you can process deceit, do good or do evil. You cannot commit sin if you don't have the knowledge of good and evil. So where did the concept of the original sin come from? Did they commit the sin before having the knowledge of good and evil? It does not add up.

YOU ARE MAKING UP STUPID, IMAGINARY CONDITIONS THAT DO NOT EXIST.


. 1^st JOHN 3:4.

4. Whosoever committeth Sin
transgresseth also The Law:
for Sin is
the Transgression of The Law.

SIN IS TRANSGRESSION OF THE COMMANDMENT OF GOD.

To commit SIN, you do not have to know that there was a Commandment of God.

ADAM AND EVE DID NOT COMMIT SIN.

. NUMBERS 15:27-31.

27. "And if any Soul Sin
through ignorance,
then he shall bring a she goat
of the first year
for a Sin Offering.
28. And the Priest shall
make an Atonement
for the Soul that Sinneth Ignorantly,
when he Sinneth by Ignorance
before The LORD,
to make an Atonement for him;
and it shall be forgiven him.
29. "Ye shall have One Law
for him that Sinneth through Ignorance,
both for him that is born
among the Children of Israel,
and for the Stranger that sojourneth
among them.
30. "But the Soul
that doeth ought presumptuously,
whether he be
born in the land,
or a Stranger,
the same Reproacheth
The LORD;
and that Soul shall be cut off
from among his people.
31. "Because he hath despised
The Word of The LORD,
and hath broken His Commandment,
that Soul shall utterly be cut off;
his Iniquity shall be upon him."

ADAM AND EVE COMMITTED INIQUITY: THEY KNOWINGLY BROKE THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD.

There is NO ATONEMENT for INIQUITY.

Akin1212:
Theists, think deeply for once in your lives.

YOU INSULT EVERY BELIEVER IN GOD, ACCUSING US OF NOT THINKING DEEPLY.

Whereas when I showed you the Scriptures concerning MEDITATION, you called ME "foolish!"

I showed you the Scriptures whose PRINCIPLES cure 98% of Sickness and Disease- WITHOUT MEDICINES- and YOU asked: "WHAT IS THEIR RELEVANCE?"

Clearly, the one failing to "THINK DEEPLY" is YOU!

Akin1212:
Simple questions require simple answers. Logical questions require logical answers. If you're going to do this, don't clog this thread with bible verses or verses from the quran. This logic is very straightforward.

Interesting question you pose here, Akin, I'll try to answer them one at a time. But first, it would seem that you are asking one to take this narrative literally which I'm afraid is way above my payscale! For starts, it's not history so taking it literally is, in my opinion, an error.

The Bible is one of the earliest scientific theories put forward as knowledge of what is. It was written at a time when only so much was known, and treating it the way you appear to be treating it is like going through the works of Darwin and Newton and claiming they knew everything pertaining to the subject they wrote about, when the truth is, they really only knew so little, but quite a lot for their time. So, with that said, and with expectations of criticism

Akin1212:
How were they supposed to process that death or disobedience were bad things and make the decision on something they had no knowledge of?

Early humans have always attempted to explain death and bad things, but you might understand how difficult it might have been for them considering how little they actually know. In the days of Aphrodite, less than 2500 years ago for instance, a mare (horse) had to lift up both it's hindlegs and a woman would get pregnant, was a belief resulting in the reverence of horses. Even in the Orolu Kingdom it is today believed amongst some that a male cat has to literally jump over a female cat for for it to get pregnant, and despite showing them cats copulating on youtube.

The text you refer to is teaching that disobedience results in death instead of your placing of the cart before the horses. Considering one were subject to those who knew better at the time you might understand how it might work. Someone after all would always lord it over those who know much less.

That's not all it teaches though, that narrative being one of the most explored as far as the Bible is concerned.

Akin1212:

How were Adam and Eve supposed to know satan

Prior to what is narrated in the story, they couldn't know 'satan' (or error) since they were ignorant.

Akin1212:
Where did the concept of the original sin come from?

It arose as a recognition of the ignorance of the human race. What is referred to as "original sin" is just that, ignorance.

Akin1212:

Did they commit the sin before having the knowledge of good and evil?

Funny enough, the answer to this is yes, they did "commit the sin before having the knowledge of good and evil" since they hadn't eaten of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil which would allow them to know good and evil.

I guess to get the gist of my meanings here, you'd have to understand what early human being was prior to God breathing into mud. Some knowledge of evolution might help.

budaatum:

Interesting question you pose here, Akin, I'll try to answer them one at a time. But first, it would seem that you are asking one to take this narrative literally which I'm afraid is way above my payscale! For starts, it's not history so taking it literally is, in my opinion, an error.

It's nice to know that you realized it's not history, which meansit didn't happen. It's just pure fiction and I already know that. I only asked hypothetically because of those who believe it happenfor real.

budaatum:


The Bible is one of the earliest scientific theories put forward as knowledge of what is. It was written at a time when only so much was known, and treating it the way you appear to be treating it is like going through the works of Darwin and Newton and claiming they knew everything pertaining to the subject they wrote about, when the truth is, they really only knew so little, but quite a lot for their time. So, with that said, and with expectations of criticism

The bible was not and still not a scientific theory. And there's nothing worth responding to here besides that.

budaatum:


Early humans have always attempted to explain death and bad things, but you might understand how difficult it might have been for them considering how little they actually know. In the days of Aphrodite, less than 2500 years ago for instance, a mare (horse) had to lift up both it's hindlegs and a woman would get pregnant, was a belief resulting in the reverence of horses. Even in the Orolu Kingdom it is today believed amongst some that a male cat has to literally jump over a female cat for for it to get pregnant, and despite showing them cats copulating on youtube.

Sone people are still gullible, doesn't mean they are correct.

budaatum:


The text you refer to is teaching that disobedience results in death instead of your placing of the cart before the horses. Considering one were subject to those who knew better at the time you might understand how it might work. Someone after all would always lord it over those who know much less.

That's not all it teaches though, that narrative being one of the most explored as far as the Bible is concerned.


Prior to what is narrated in the story, they couldn't know 'satan' (or error) since they were ignorant.

If they couldn't know about Satan, then it was no fault of theirs for eating what they ate. The joke is on the fictional God.

budaatum:


It arose as a recognition of the ignorance of the human race. What is referred to as "original sin" is just that, ignorance.


Funny enough, the answer to this is yes, they did "commit the sin before having the knowledge of good and evil" since they hadn't eaten of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil which would allow them to know good and evil.

I guess to get the gist of my meanings here, you'd have to understand what early human being was prior to God breathing into mud. Some knowledge of evolution might help.

Ignorance is not a sin, no one deserves to die in the hands of any God for that.

They committed the sin of choosing between good and evil even before having the knowledge to choose between good and evil. I see how you warped everything up into a poppycock.

Akin1212:

It's nice to know that you realized it's not history, which meansit didn't happen. It's just pure fiction and I already know that. I only asked hypothetically because of those who believe it happenfor real.

Realised Don't be silly! You can't have forgotten who buda was already!

Akin1212:
The bible was not and still not a scientific theory.

.
I guess if you don't see it as such, I can't make you.

Akin1212:
Sone people are still gullible, doesn't mean they are correct.

No one is suggesting the gullible are correct!

Akin1212:

If they couldn't know about Satan, then it was no fault of theirs for eating what they ate. The joke is on the fictional God.

How can anything be on a fictional thing Or are you not an atheist? You say "fault", a funny choice. But please tell, who is it that suffers from ones ignorance?

Akin1212:

Ignorance is not a sin, no one deserves to die in the hands of any God for that.

You're doing it again! How does "deserve", apply to "the hands of any God" , that you said was "fictional"?

Is it not written that the wages of sin is death, and does ignorance not lead to death?

Akin1212:
They committed the sin of choosing between good and evil even before having the knowledge to choose between good and evil. I see how you warped everything up into a poppycock.

Poppycock, Akin? Or you just don't understand a single word that I've written?

OpenYourEyes1:
God has planned this all along to teach humans the importance of obedience and loyalty.
In the end he will reward & choose millions of humans who will be totally loyal to him.



Adam and Eve failed a very simple test

Why will God test them when he had already planned that they should fail

frank317:


Why will God test them when he had already planned that they should fail

Silly, isn't it! Some make God sound like an idiot!

budaatum:


How can anything be on a fictional thing Or are you not an atheist? You say "fault", a funny choice. But please tell, who is it that suffers from ones ignorance?


You're doing it again! How does "deserve", apply to "the hands of any God" , that you said was "fictional"?

If God is fictional and we are to argue from that premise, then why are you responding? This post was to prove further that God whichever fits this story, is fictional. And I have highlighted the inconsistencies in the narrative that proves that he is.

So to prove further that he is indeed fictional, I have to argue from a hypothetical viewpoint, assuming he exists. You should get that.

budaatum:


Is it not written that the wages of sin is death, and does ignorance not lead to death?

Then you deserve to die too, or do you have knowledge of everything, including the things that can kill you?

budaatum:


Poppycock, Akin? Or you just don't understand a single word that I've written?

Akin1212:

Then you deserve to die too, or do you have knowledge of everything, including the things that can kill you?

It's not a 'deserved' thing, but a consequence of not doing that which will allow one to live. And a lack of knowledge does not have to kill me for it to be shown that ignorance kills. Below is death rates for a few countries to help you get your head around it.

Nigeria - Death rate, crude
Death rate, crude (per 1,000 people) in Nigeria was reported at 12.46 in 2016, according to the World Bank collection of development indicators, compiled from officially recognized sources.

United Kingdom - Death rate, crude
Death rate, crude (per 1,000 people) in United Kingdom was reported at 9.1 in 2016, according to the World Bank collection of development indicators, compiled from officially recognized sources.

United States - Death rate, crude
Death rate, crude (per 1,000 people) in United States was reported at 8.4 in 2016, according to the World Bank collection of development indicators, compiled from officially recognized sources.

Israel - Death rate, crude
Death rate, crude (per 1,000 people) in Israel was reported at 5.1 in 2016, according to the World Bank collection of development indicators, compiled from officially recognized sources.

budaatum:

It's not a 'deserved' thing, but a consequence of not doing that which will allow one to live. And a lack of knowledge does not have to kill me for it to be shown that ignorance kills. Below is death rates for a few countries to help you get your head around it.

If ignorance is the first sin, and Adam and Even deserved to die because of ignorance, so do you.

Stop creating fallacies and straw man arguments here. I don't have that time.

Akin1212:
If ignorance is the first sin, and Adam and Even deserved to die because of ignorance, so do you.

Stop creating fallacies and straw man arguments here. I don't have that time.

I'm sure you'd stop when you want to Akin, until then, where the heck did you get "ignorance is the first sin" from, and that "Adam and Even (sic) deserved to die because of ignorance"? Do you know the meaning of fallacies and straw men? You have kind of got me wondering here!

Death, in case you are not aware, is not a deserved thing but an inevitable thing, as far as living things go. And ignorance is not exactly known to kill people per se, though a lack of knowledge may shorten one's life. As to the first sin, the very first human sin? You must think I have some special powers to go back in the time human beings have existed to know what sin they committed first! But if you mean biblical first sin, as in the first sin recorded in the Bible, then disobedience would be the answer, though some have said listening to a serpent would more than qualify. And listening to a serpent would be ignorance since they ought to have known, or be able to know serpents do not exactly speak.

budaatum:

I'm sure you'd stop when you want to Akin, until then, where the heck did you get "ignorance is the first sin" from, and that "Adam and Even (sic) deserved to die because of ignorance"? Do you know the meaning of fallacies and straw men? You have kind of got me wondering here!

Death, in case you are not aware, is not a deserved thing but an inevitable thing, as far as living things go. And ignorance is not exactly known to kill people per se, though a lack of knowledge may shorten one's life. As to the first sin, the very first human sin? You must think I have some special powers to go back in the time human beings have existed to know what sin they committed first! But if you mean biblical first sin, as in the first sine recorded in the Bible, then disobedience would be the answer, though some have said listening to a serpent would more than qualify. And listening to a serpent would be ignorance since they ought to have known, or be able to know serpents do not exactly speak.

Was death inevitable for Adam and Eve before they ate from the tree of good and evil or was death a consequence of eating from the tree of good and evil?

Assuming the story is true.

PhenomenalMorgan:

There is a diff btw knowledge and Intuition
They(by their Godly nature) were created to intuitively do good but they had no knowledge of Good or evil!!!

the truth is that the story is full errors and is Just a fable that's all. don't defend that nonsense .

Akin1212:


Was death inevitable for Adam and Eve before they ate from the tree of good and evil or was death a consequence of eating from the tree of good and evil?

Assuming the story is true.

Death is an inevitable consequence for all things that have life.

Eating from the tree of good and evil made Adam and Eve aware that things die.

Akin1212:
Simple questions require simple answers. Logical questions require logical answers. If you're going to do this, don't clog this thread with bible verses or verses from the quran. This logic is very straightforward.


Before Adam and Eve ate from the forbidden tree, they didn't know anything called evil, we can as well say they didn't know good too. They were just zombies.

The instruction given to them by God was that, if they eat from the tree, they will acquire the knowledge of good and evil, in other words, they will know what is bad and also know what is good and that they will die. They didn't even know that death is bad neither did they know that disobedience is bad, since they had not eaten from the tree.

Now, how were they supposed to process that death or disobedience were bad things and make the decision on something they had no knowledge of?
If you bring up the excuse that Satan deceived them, then how were they supposed to know that Satan was deceiving them, were they warned to beware of Satan?

If you have freewill, you must have knowledge of good and evil before you can process deceit, do good or do evil. You cannot commit sin if you don't have the knowledge of good and evil. So where did the concept of the original sin come from? Did they commit the sin before having the knowledge of good and evil? It does not add up.

Theists, think deeply for once in your lives.

"any day you shall eat of this fruit you shall surely die" is already a knowledge given to them. so they were not zombies. what's your point Mr. Rationalist ?

budaatum:

Death is an inevitable consequence for all things that have life.

Eating from the tree of good and evil made Adam and Eve aware that things die.

I don't think so. Death came as a result of sin and sin is just disobedience in a nutshell

ChngedChnges:

I don't think so. Death came as a result of sin and sin is just disobedience in a nutshell

Living things have always been disobedient that's why they've always died. Even the very first Adam and Eve, they died.

Sin is a product of ignorance. The more wiser sin less, and live longer.

Or not so?

true

ChngedChnges:
I don't think so. Death came as a result of sin and sin is just disobedience in a nutshell

Death, like an Eveready Energizer battery was always on standby, literally standing at the doorstep, hands clasping, greedily and eagerly waiting to make an entrance and throw everyone and everything into confusion

What do you think would have happened if after the disobedience, they got access to the tree of life and their hands on its fruit to thereafter eat?

MuttleyLaff:
Death, like an Eveready Energizer battery was always on standby, literally standing at the doorstep, hands clasping, greedily and eagerly waiting to make an entrance and throw everyone and everything into confusion

What do you think would have happened if after the disobedience, they got access to the tree of life and their hands on its fruit to thereafter eat?

then there'll be nothing like restoration of man. Man would live eternally in sin & death and sadly not even the blood of our Lord would redeem us. There is law guiding every creation.
Have you ever wondered why Satan was never forgiven?

ChngedChnges:
then there'll be nothing like restoration of man. Man would live eternally in sin & death and sadly not even the blood of our Lord would redeem us. There is law guiding every creation.

Exactly, having the tree of life to eat from gives accessibility, unlike eating off the tree of knowledge ogf good and evil that creates a dividing line between God and man. Having said all that, I am absolutely sure, you can spot the oxymoron in your comment

ChngedChnges:
Have you ever wondered why Satan was never forgiven?

No, I havent ever entertained the thought because I already knew that Satan is hopelessly unredeemable. Forgiving Satan will be an unforgivable and unneccesary waste thing to do.

ChngedChnges:


"any day you shall eat of this fruit you shall surely die" is already a knowledge given to them. so they were not zombies. what's your point Mr. Rationalist ?

How were they supposed to know that dying is a bad thing? Were they told what death is? How come you cannot fathom what my point was, Mr irrationalist?

budaatum:

Death is an inevitable consequence for all things that have life.

Eating from the tree of good and evil made Adam and Eve aware that things die.

So, are you saying Adam and Eve were going to die anyway even if they didn't eat from the tree of knowledge, because of course thay had life? Even when they were specifically told that they will die only if they eat from the tree? So, death was a useless threat? I think you should check your argument Budaatum. You're threading a path where you'll shoot yourself in the foot.

Assuming the story was true.

Akin1212:


So, are you saying Adam and Eve were going to die anyway even if they didn't eat from the tree of knowledge, because of course thay had life? Even when they were specifically told that they will die only if they eat from the tree? So, death was a useless threat? I think you should check your argument Budaatum. You're threading a path where you'll shoot yourself in the foot.

Assuming the story was true.

How can I shoot myself in the foot when I can see my foot, thread carefully on the path, and don't know how to shoot nor have a gun?!

Adam and Eve were not specifically told that they will die only if they eat from the tree! "Surely, and certainly" die, are the sort of words used, a specific threat not to be read as "I, God, will kill you instantly!" Adam and Eve must have understood what was meant or they would have asked God what God meant at the time.

budaatum:

How can I shoot myself in the foot when I can see my foot, thread carefully on the path, and don't know how to shoot nor have a gun?!

Adam and Eve were not specifically told that they will die only if they eat from the tree! "Surely, and certainly" die, are the sort of words used, a specific threat not to be read as "I, God, will kill you instantly!" Adam and Eve must have understood what was meant or they would have asked God what God meant at the time.

You already shot yourself in the foot Buda.

Surely and certainly were the words used by God, so God specifically used those English words? Even with those English words, we can still say it means only. According to the fairy, they were not told about death until when instructed not to eat from a tree planted by the protagonist. If the tree wasn't there, they were surely not going to die. Any additional explanation is your own contribution to suit the narrative, which at this point is unnecessary. They would surely die, when they become knowledgeable, but you said ignorance leads to death. That's where you shot yourself in the foot. You honestly did a cognitive dissonance. You should stick with one path, I cannot be going round circles with you. You also said death is inevitable, so it means whether you're ignorant or not you'll die.

Choose one reason why they died.

1. Because they were ignorant.
2. Because they became knowledgeable.
3. Because death was inevitable.


Assuming the story was true.

Akin1212:


You already shot yourself in the foot Buda.

Surely and certainly were the words used by God, so God specifically used those English words? Even with those English words, we can still say it means only. According to the fairy, they were not told about death until when instructed not to eat from a tree planted by the protagonist. If the tree wasn't there, they were surely not going to die. Any additional explanation is your own contribution to suit the narrative, which at this point is unnecessary. They would surely die, when they become knowledgeable, but you said ignorance leads to death. That's where you shot yourself in the foot. You honestly did a cognitive dissonance. You should stick with one path, I cannot be going round circles with you. You also said death is inevitable, so it means whether you're ignorant or not you'll die.

Choose one reason why they died.

1. Because they were ignorant.
2. Because they became knowledgeable.
3. Because death was inevitable.


Assuming the story was true.

You have added a rogue, "only", to suit your own narrative, and you claim "If the tree wasn't there, they were surely not going to die". Where do you get that from? How do you know that if they had not eaten the fruit of the tree of knowledge and evil that they might have done something else at a later date that have pissed God off, or God just got bored of them eventually so God killed them?

Anyway,

1, They died.

2, They died and had been dying, even before they knew they died, and eventually became knowledgeable about the death they were dying.

3, Because, death is inevitable.

Akin1212:
You already shot yourself in the foot Buda.

Surely and certainly were the words used by God, so God specifically used those English words? Even with those English words, we can still say it means only. According to the fairy, they were not told about death until when instructed not to eat from a tree planted by the protagonist. If the tree wasn't there, they were surely not going to die. Any additional explanation is your own contribution to suit the narrative, which at this point is unnecessary. They would surely die, when they become knowledgeable, but you said ignorance leads to death. That's where you shot yourself in the foot. You honestly did a cognitive dissonance. You should stick with one path, I cannot be going round circles with you. You also said death is inevitable, so it means whether you're ignorant or not you'll die.
Choose one reason why they died.

1. Because they were ignorant.
2. Because they became knowledgeable.
3. Because death was inevitable.
Assuming the story was true.

Unfortunately you only managed to muck up the water with those inconsequent reasons you advanced because sin entered the world through one man's disobedience, and death actually came to man, through and/or because of this disobedience sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all, by de facto, sinned

The story in genesis was not designed to teach history and facts. It is an allegory meant to convey mystical / spiritual truths.

The garden of eden is all about the constitution of man from the outer to the inner man.

Till date, even the African secret societies in our villages teach truths to their adepts using symbols and stories.

MuttleyLaff:
Unfortunately you only managed to muck up the water with those inconsequent reasons you advanced because sin entered the world through one man's disobedience, and death actually came to man, through and/or because of this disobedience sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all, by de facto, sinned

You should be responding to Budatuum and not me.

Budatuum said, death comes to anything that has life, disobedience or not.