najib632:
Look boy you're a Joke, go and learn the ranks of scholarship in Islam when you do that then we can talk, then check to see between the scholars I mentioned and @usermane's and see which of them rank the highest. Read their biographies too.

Who rank their scholarship? Allah?

usermane:


Hahaha. There are others like him. May be not Quranist but they do not stick with orthodoxy. You never hear from these scholars because they are immediately censored, deplatformed and their certificates may be withdrawn for speaking out. No scholar want this.

Read on Ali Abdel Razaq.

I will read about him, give me a guide on how to know your most revered scholars, a YouTube channel or website. @bolded They're very few this I am sure and this means they went to steal the certificate from Al Azhar, And it will not benefit them. May Allah guide us.

usermane:


Any Recongnized scholars that promote terrorism.

Muhammad Ibn Abdul Wahhab - The first Saudi state 1744 was founded on the terrorism by bin Saud's forces, sanctioned by fatwas of Ibn Abdul Wahhab.

I can keep going. All the earliest orthodox scholars agree it is the obligation of the Caliph, and the Caliph alone, to expand the caliphate by starting wars against Darul Harb - Non-Muslim lands, in order to conquer.

The eighteenth century was an era of Western colonial expansionism. The entire Muslim World was groaning under the iron heels of the European colonialists. The mighty Ottoman Empire was heading towards a collapse. Muslim society suffered from superstitions, pagan practices, heretical innovations and apostatical leanings. The concept of pure and uncompromising Tawhid (monotheism) got mixed up with polytheism. Hijaz, the land of two sanctuaries of Islam, was no exception. The whole of the Arabian Peninsula was under the grip of superstitions and Jahiliya practices. Najd, the central part of the Peninsula, had also lapsed into pre-Islamic heathenism. Despite such a gloomy picture, the reformative impulse was always active and operational.

Religio-Cultural And Political Milieu Of Najd Before The Shaikh
Bedouin Arabia had slipped into ignorance, barbarism, bloodletting, discord and corruption. Religion was perverted and the socioeconomic and cultural life was paralysed. Few God-fearing 'Ulama' were combating the heathen beliefs and practices, such as stone, tree and grave worship. The state of affairs in Najd was awful:
"... They called upon idols and sought their intercession and aid, offered sacrifices to stones and rocks and trees in the belief that these possess the power to bring good and ward off evil, and so people sought their pleasure and approbation through
offerings .....” (Muhammad ibn Abdul Wahhaab; Ahmad Abdul Ghafur)

If you're intrested you can read about the rest here :
https://www.ummah.com/forum/forum/islam/general-islamic-topics/4217-the-truth-about-sheikh-muhamad-ibn-abdulwahab-refutation-to-all-false-labels-on-him

or visit YouTube and watch his biography on sheikh Yasir Qadhi's channel.

Apart from him there's no other one you can accuse of the same. And everyone that is angry with him are all deviants and innovatiors.

And yes keep going.

usermane:


Hahaha. There are others like him. May be not Quranist but they do not stick with orthodoxy. You never hear from these scholars because they are immediately censored, deplatformed and their certificates may be withdrawn for speaking out. No scholar want this.

Read on Ali Abdel Razaq.



Any Recongnized scholars that promote terrorism.

Muhammad Ibn Abdul Wahhab - The first Saudi state 1744 was founded on the terrorism by bin Saud's forces, sanctioned by fatwas of Ibn Abdul Wahhab.

I can keep going. All the earliest orthodox scholars agree it is the obligation of the Caliph, and the Caliph alone, to expand the caliphate by starting wars against Darul Harb - Non-Muslim lands, in order to conquer.

@ bolded is orthodox Islam and all the 5 schools of Islamic jurisprudence agree with this.

tintingz:
Who rank their scholarship? Allah?

You baffle me I swear. I said go and learn about it you'll find out if it's Allah or not when you do.

tintingz:
- DHUL-QARNAYN (ALEXANDER) AND GOG AND MAGOG MYTH

There is a myth of Alexander which is called Alexander Romance in ancient Greek texts and was transformed into various version in the Hebrew scriptures, Persian text, Armenian, Syriac and in the Quran. This story is a myth and not historical.

And The Syriac Alexander Legend, currently dated around 629-630 AD, has been found to closely resemble the story of Dhu al-Qarnayn in the Qur'an. Source

Dhul-Qarnayn (Alexander) is in (Quran 18:83-101).

Eastern accounts of Alexander’s fabled career paid a good deal of attention to the Gog and Magog episode, a version of this story being included in the Qurʾān. The Arabs, expanding Syrian versions of the legend, passed them on to the many peoples with whom they came in contact. Through them, the Persian poets, notably Neẓāmī in the 12th century, gave the stories new form.
Source

The people of the past knew about this myth or legend, the Quran came confirm same myth and claim it's a revelation, this is not a divine revelation but folklore in the ancient Greek text.

Just so you know, there is a modern theory that Dhul Qarnayn is not Alexander the Great, but Cyrus the Great. But I think the real issue here is with the location of the great wall.

All in all, the Dhul Qarnayn tale is one area of the Qur'an so grey that it just necessitate leap of faith.

usermane:


Just so you know, there is a modern theory that Dhul Qarnayn is not Alexander the Great, but Cyrus the Great.

Scholars that studied the legend of Alexander have linked some myths to Dhul-Qarnayn in the Quran and also in the Bible. Part of the legend which is the Alexander Romance talked exactly about Gog and Magog and the great wall which is found in the Qur'an. Kindly read up Gog and Magog and Alexander Romance.

I don't think Cyrus the great has anything similar with Dhul-Qarnayn, you can provide the similarities.

But I think the real issue here is with the location of the great wall.

That's another issue, the great wall is no where to be found.

All in all, the Dhul Qarnayn tale is one area of the Qur'an so grey that it just necessitate leap of faith.

A single flaw in the Quran has demolished it divinity.

najib632:
You baffle me I swear. I said go and learn about you'll find out if it's Allah or not when you do.

Ok

najib632:
I will read about him, give me a guide on how to know your most revered scholars, a YouTube channel or website. @bolded They're very few this I am sure and this means they went to steal the certificate from Al Azhar, And it will not benefit them. May Allah guide us.

I don't have many revered respected scholars, am afraid. As you can see, the orthodox scholars dominate the mainstream. They're the only ones that get media coverage, that get published, that get academic posts in universities all through Muslim history.

In any case, I'll recommend you to Mufti Abu Layth al Maliki channel on YouTube. Ahmed Subhy Mansur also has a YouTube channel - Quranic moments- in Arabic, and has published some works too, if you mind reading beyond his website - International Quranic Center.

The eighteenth century was an era of Western colonial expansionism. The entire Muslim World was groaning under the iron heels of the European colonialists. The mighty Ottoman Empire was heading towards a collapse. Muslim society suffered from superstitions, pagan practices, heretical innovations and apostatical leanings. The concept of pure and uncompromising Tawhid (monotheism) got mixed up with polytheism. Hijaz, the land of two sanctuaries of Islam, was no exception. The whole of the Arabian Peninsula was under the grip of superstitions and Jahiliya practices. Najd, the central part of the Peninsula, had also lapsed into pre-Islamic heathenism. Despite such a gloomy picture, the reformative impulse was always active and operational.

Religio-Cultural And Political Milieu Of Najd Before The Shaikh
Bedouin Arabia had slipped into ignorance, barbarism, bloodletting, discord and corruption. Religion was perverted and the socioeconomic and cultural life was paralysed. Few God-fearing 'Ulama' were combating the heathen beliefs and practices, such as stone, tree and grave worship. The state of affairs in Najd was awful:
"... They called upon idols and sought their intercession and aid, offered sacrifices to stones and rocks and trees in the belief that these possess the power to bring good and ward off evil, and so people sought their pleasure and approbation through
offerings .....” (Muhammad ibn Abdul Wahhaab; Ahmad Abdul Ghafur)

If you're intrested you can read about the rest here :
https://www.ummah.com/forum/forum/islam/general-islamic-topics/4217-the-truth-about-sheikh-muhamad-ibn-abdulwahab-refutation-to-all-false-labels-on-him

or visit YouTube and watch his biography on sheikh Yasir Qadhi's channel.

Apart from him there's no other one you can accuse of the same. And everyone that is angry with him are all deviants and innovatiors.

And yes keep going.

Yea, but bin Abdul wahhab started bloodshed of people that did not harm him. This is his fault. Why fight people for commuting shirk? Everyone have their own definition of shirk.

I'll watch his biography like you recommend, though I doubt any revelation will acquit him.

- THE WINGED FLYING CREATURE AND THE JOURNEY TO HEAVEN MYTH

The Quran didn't mention nor describe this flying creature that took Muhammad to heaven but the Hadith mentioned this creature called Buraq.

From Quran:
Limitless in His glory is He who transported His servant by night from the Inviolable House of worship [at Mecca] to the Remote House of Worship [at Jerusalem] the environs of which We had blessed — so that We might show him some of Our symbols: for, verily, He alone is All-Hearing, All-Seeing.” (Quran 17:1).

This creature is said to be like a winged donkey or horse or so.

But there are similar winged creatures in other cultures mythologies. Here

I've read a lot of ancient greek mythology, I'm more familiar with Pegasus the winged horse that carried Perseus, the creature was sent by the God Zeus from heaven to Perseus, I'm also familiar with unicorn.

The funny thing is majority of Muslims believed Muhammad truly rode on a flying creature to heaven but tell them Perseus rode on flying creature they will deny it and say it's a myth. This irony is a serious delusion.

tintingz:
Scholars that studied the legend of Alexander have linked some myths to Dhul-Qarnayn in the Quran and also in the Bible. Part of the legend which is the Alexander Romance talked exactly about Gog and Magog and the great wall which is found in the Qur'an. Kindly read up Gog and Magog and Alexander Romance.

I don't think Cyrus the great has anything similar with Dhul-Qarnayn, you can provide the similarities.

Here;
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyrus_the_Great_in_the_Qur'an

But it doesn't account for Dhul Qarnayn journey to the setting and rising place of the sun, while the Alexander Romance does.

usermane:


I don't have many revered respected scholars, am afraid. As you can see, the orthodox scholars dominate the mainstream. They're the only ones that get media coverage, that get published, that get academic posts in universities all through Muslim history.

It's because they've deviated and innovated things the Sahabah didn't do and are away from the Sunnah, that's why they don't get much coverage.

usermane:

In any case, I'll recommend you to Mufti Abu Layth al Maliki channel on YouTube. Ahmed Subhy Mansur also has a YouTube channel - Quranic moments- in Arabic, and has published some works too, if you mind reading beyond his website - International Quranic Center.

[quote author=usermane post=77003008]
Yea, but bin Abdul wahhab started bloodshed of people that did not harm him. This is his fault. Why fight people for commuting shirk? Everyone have their own definition of shirk.

There's only one definition of shirk, and that's how Allah and His messenger S.A.W. defined it and that is associating of partners with Allah in worship. So no one deserves an attribute of Allah even the messenger of Allah S.A.W. That's why he warned us severly against over praising him. Anyone who brings about any definition apart from this is on his own. If Muhammad ibn Abdulwahab R. committed injustice towards those murdered Allah will Judge between them and compensate them accordingly. But Alhamdulillah a greater calamity was averted. May Allah bless them for their efforts.

usermane:

I'll watch his biography like you recommend, though I doubt any revelation will acquit him.

Watch it with an open mind, don't be against him or support him when you do.

tintingz:
- THE WINGED FLYING CREATURE AND THE JOURNEY TO HEAVEN

The Quran didn't mention nor describe this flying creature that took Muhammad to heaven but the Hadith mentioned this creature called Buraq.

Limitless in His glory is He who transported His servant by night from the Inviolable House of worship [at Mecca] to the Remote House of Worship [at Jerusalem] the environs of which We had blessed — so that We might show him some of Our symbols: for, verily, He alone is All-Hearing, All-Seeing.” (Quran 17:1).

This creature is said to be like a winged donkey or horse or so.

But there are similar winged creatures in other cultures mythologies. Here

I've read a lot of ancient greek mythology I'm more familiar with Pegasus the winged horse that carried Perseus, the creature was sent by the God Zeus from heaven to Perseus, I'm also familiar with unicorn.

The funny thing is majority of Muslims believed Muhammad truly rode on a flying creature to heaven but tell them Perseus rode on flying creature they will deny it and say it's a myth. This irony is a serious delusion.

We're not a people who lack logic, trying to make us believe obvious fairytales.

usermane:


Here;
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyrus_the_Great_in_the_Qur'an

But it doesn't account for Dhul Qarnayn journey to the setting and rising place of the sun, while the Alexander Romance does.

There might be some stories that fit in with Cyrus the great but according the majority of scholars Alexander the great fit in well with Dhul-Qarnayn.

Alexander Romance tale has high parallel with Dhul-Qarnayn story in the Quran and in the Bible.

najib632:
We're not a people who lack logic, trying to make us believe obvious fairytales.

Do you believe Perseus rode on Pegasus (flying horse)?, if no, why?

Let's see who lack logic here.

tintingz:
Do you believe Perseus rode on Pegasus (flying horse), if no, why?

Let's see who lack logic here.

I don't, because persus is a false god and an obvious fairy tale for anyone with a sane mind (except you though since you believe that Santa Claus exists). He never existed in the first place talkless of riding on a flying horse.

najib632:
I don't, because persus is a false god and an obvious fairy tale for anyone with a sane mind (except you though since you believe that Santa Claus exists). He never existed in the first place talkless of riding on a flying horse.

Please clarify your claims.

- Why do you think Perseus is a false god(he's a demi-god by the way)?

- Why do you think it's a fairytale he rode on a flying horse and Muhammad doing same is not a fairytale?

- What makes you think Perseus never existed?

tintingz:
- THE WINGED FLYING CREATURE AND THE JOURNEY TO HEAVEN

The Quran didn't mention nor describe this flying creature that took Muhammad to heaven but the Hadith mentioned this creature called Buraq.

Limitless in His glory is He who transported His servant by night from the Inviolable House of worship [at Mecca] to the Remote House of Worship [at Jerusalem] the environs of which We had blessed — so that We might show him some of Our symbols: for, verily, He alone is All-Hearing, All-Seeing.” (Quran 17:1).

This creature is said to be like a winged donkey or horse or so.

But there are similar winged creatures in other cultures mythologies. Here

I've read a lot of ancient greek mythology, I'm more familiar with Pegasus the winged horse that carried Perseus, the creature was sent by the God Zeus from heaven to Perseus, I'm also familiar with unicorn.

The funny thing is majority of Muslims believed Muhammad truly rode on a flying creature to heaven but tell them Perseus rode on flying creature they will deny it and say it's a myth. This irony is a serious delusion.

I mean very delusional. I think I watched this film as a kid: The clash of the Titans.. The actor flying on a white winged horse from place to place. It is also similar to Mohammed's night journey, flying on a white horse from mecca to Jerusalem. And you know what, it was only Mohammed that knew he flew on a white horse (in his dream); none of his sahabas knew or saw it. Really delusional.

tintingz:
Please clarify your claims.

- Why do you think Perseus is a false god(he's a demi-god by the way)?

لا إله إلا الله
There's only one single Allah and all of humanity knows Him every language has a word they call him. Who is persus in my language? I don't know... This false god exists only to in greek and maybe Roman mythology, show him to me in other pagan mythology apart from thesr, you can't. If these so called demi-gods exist where are they?

tintingz:

- Why do you think it's a fairytale he rode on a flying horse and Muhammad doing same is not a fairytale?

Muhammad S.A.W. met people who actually exited in history when he travelled, like Musa A.S. you're trying so hard to falsify his existence(Hahahahaha let Jews not catch you o). And his detailed of evidence of people he met on the way and his experience in masjid al-aqsa, when he returned back from his journey. Do so for that false god pls.

tintingz:

- What makes you think Perseus never existed?

There's no evidence of his existence in history. If you can prove it(pls try to Hahahahaha) then he was an exaggerated human, which is usually common in many cultures across the world. Even the Chinese make great people gods.

najib632:
لا إله إلا الله
There's only one single Allah and all of humanity knows Him every language has a word they call him. Who is persus in my language? I don't know... This false god exists only to in greek and maybe Roman mythology, show him to me in other pagan mythology apart from thesr, you can't. If these so called demi-gods exist where are they?

Before Islam was spread by conquest, which other cultures believe in Allah?. Can you tell me other culture that mention Allah and worship Allah?

Do Jews, Christians, Buddhism, Taoism, Jainism, Hinduism etc believe Allah is real and true?

Asking do demi-god exist is like asking do prophets, angels, jinns mention in your Quran exist, can you provide evidence of their existence?

Muhammad S.A.W. met people who actually exited in history when he travelled, like Musa A.S. you're trying so hard to falsify his existence(Hahahahaha let Jews not catch you o). And his detailed of evidence of people he met on the way and his experience in masjid al-aqsa, when he returned back from his journey. Do so for that false god pls.

Lol! I don't want empty claims. Provide historical evidence of Moses(Musa).

And also provide evidence of the night journey Muhammad rode to heaven.

No empty claims please.

There's no evidence of his existence in history. If you can prove it(pls try to Hahahahaha) then he was an exaggerated human, which is usually common in many cultures across the world. Even the Chinese make great people gods.

Perseus was said to found the ancient city of Mycenae in Greece, the site still exist today. Kindly understand what a myth is or go back to my first post to read the definition.

Muhammad rode a flying donkey, split the moon, revealed a book, talk to animals, jins, angels etc are all myths, they can't be proven in history, you just believe he's a prophet by faith not by evidence.

true2god:
I mean very delusional. I think I watched this film as a kid: The clash of the Titans.. The actor flying on a white winged horse from place to place. It is also similar to Mohammed's night journey, flying on a white horse from mecca to Jerusalem. And you know what, it was only Mohammed that knew he flew on a white horse (in his dream); none of his sahabas knew or saw it. Really delusional.

Lol, Yes Clash of Titans portrayed Perseus in the movie, I've watched the 2 versions of the movie like 5 times.

They(Muslims) prefer to believe Muhammad rode on flying donkey even when they can't prove it but they are quick to deny Perseus rode on a flying horse just because there's no evidence he did. They are hypocrites and committing same fallacy not to believe in Perseus myth.

I'm waiting for naji632 to provide historical evidence Muhammad rode on a flying donkey or whatever the creature is to heaven.

- THE MIRACULOUS BIRTH MYTH

The Quran narrated a story how Mary a virgin got pregnant without being touched by any man even though she was married to Joseph and slept together in same room Lol. She gave birth to Jesus miraculously which they call the virgin birth or miraculous birth. The Jews knew it's a lie but then the myth was held by Christians and Muslims.

"How shall I have a son, seeing that no man has touched me, and I am not unchaste?" (Quran 19:20).

There are other miraculous birth myth in other cultures mythology, you can read them Here and Here.

The miraculous birth of Qi

Like the birth of Jesus, the birth of Qi bypassed a father in Chinese myth. Qi was miraculously conceived when his mother Jiang Yuan stepped in a giant footprint left by the supreme deity Shangdi. Without an earthly father of her baby, Jiang Yuan tried to abandon him after he was born. But Qi, whose name means "the abandoned one," survived each time his mother tried to get rid of him. Jiang Yuan eventually took back her son, after recognizing his supernatural resilience. Qi proved to be a precious farmer and later became known as Houji, a god of agriculture and the mythical ancestor of China's Zhou dynasty.
Source

These things are biological false, non has been proven to happen.

tintingz:
Lol, Yes Clash of Titans portrayed Perseus in the movie, I've watched the 2 versions of the movie like 5 times.

They(Muslims) prefer to believe Muhammad rode on flying donkey even when they can't prove it but they are quick to deny Perseus rode on a flying horse just because there's no evidence he did. They are hypocrites and committing same fallacy not to believe in Perseus myth.

I'm waiting for naji632 to provide historical evidence Muhammad rode on a flying donkey or whatever the creature is to heaven.

You will wait till the cows come. Qur'an and Hadith is enough historical evidence for the lay Muslim. I think you're forgetting core Muslim beliefs;

A virgin conceived and delivered a baby.
A stick cast down and turned to a snake.
A man cast into fire but emerged unscath.

How will someone that believe in all these have a hard time believing in flying horses? And this applies to Christians and Jews too.

In practice, there is really no such thing as myth. Each of us hold firmly set of beliefs that others would deem myth. The real problem arises where one person decides their own myth is so factual that they are willing to harm those who disagree with them. This is why I'll support threads like this. If more Muslims see how imperfect the Qur'an can be from a rather dispassionate perspective, there'll be less fanaticism, I guarantee you.

usermane:


You will wait till the cows come. Qur'an and Hadith is enough historical evidence for the lay Muslim. I think you're forgetting core Muslim beliefs;

A virgin conceived and delivered a baby.
A stick cast down and turned to a snake.
A man cast into fire but emerged unscath.

How will someone that believe in all these have a hard time believing in flying horses? And this applies to Christians and Jews too.

In practice, there is really no such thing as myth. Each of us hold firmly set of beliefs that others would deem myth. The real problem arises where one person decides their own myth is so factual that they are willing to harm those who disagree with them. This is why I'll support threads like this. If more Muslims see how imperfect the Qur'an can be from a rather dispassionate perspective, there'll be less fanaticism, I guarantee you.

Well said.

Even today when a mysterious snake was said to have swallowed N36 million many people said it was a lie even Muslims said it was a lie and made jokes of it, but they will believe a snake spoke to Eve, a donkey talk to a man, a stick transform to snake, a donkey has wings and carried a man to the sky, animals talk to Solomon and many other ridiculous myths.

This height of delusion is alarming.

Najib632

The Prophet recited the verse:

مَا ضَرَبُوهُ لَكَ إِلَّا جَدَلًا بَلْ هُمْ قَوْمٌ خَصِمُونَ

They strike an example for you only to argue. Rather, they are a quarrelsome people. (43:58)

Sunan al-Tirmidhī 3253,


We should avoid getting into detailed and rancorous arguments with the followers of other religions

Kingofdiamond:
Najib632

The Prophet recited the verse:

مَا ضَرَبُوهُ لَكَ إِلَّا جَدَلًا بَلْ هُمْ قَوْمٌ خَصِمُونَ

They strike an example for you only to argue. Rather, they are a quarrelsome people. (43:58)

Sunan al-Tirmidhī 3253,


We should avoid getting into detailed and rancorous arguments with the followers of other religions

Jazaaka Allahu khairan.

tintingz:
Before Islam was spread by conquest, which other cultures believe in Allah?. Can you tell me other culture that mention Allah and worship Allah?

Do Jews, Christians, Buddhism, Taoism, Jainism, Hinduism etc believe Allah is real and true?

Asking do demi-god exist is like asking do prophets, angels, jinns mention in your Quran exist, can you provide evidence of their existence?

Lol! I don't want empty claims. Provide historical evidence of Moses(Musa).

And also provide evidence of the night journey Muhammad rode to heaven.

No empty claims please.

Perseus was said to found the ancient city of Mycenae in Greece, the site still exist today. Kindly understand what a myth is or go back to my first post to read the definition.

Muhammad rode a flying donkey, split the moon, revealed a book, talk to animals, jins, angels etc are all myths, they can't be proven in history, you just believe he's a prophet by faith not by evidence.

You've proven yourself to be a total Idiot. I cannot keep on arguing with you over the same things over and over again. You are very dull I swear, how can you continue asking questions about thongs we discussed in the past? Didn't I tell u that even if persus existed he was exaggerated?

najib632:
You've proven yourself to be a total Idiot. I cannot keep on arguing with you over the same things over and over again. You are very dull I swear, how can you continue asking questions about thongs we discussed in the past? Didn't I tell u that even if persus existed he was exaggerated?

Muhammad is also exaggerated.

I can see you cannot provide evidence to your claims, you result to insults.

tintingz:
Muhammad is also exaggerated.

I can see you cannot provide evidence to your claims, you result to insults.

You and I know the truth, why should I be always repeating myself to you?

najib632:
You and I know the truth, why should I be always repenting myself to you?

What truth?

najib632:
You're a fool o. So you mean that the Jews are total Idiots and that the person they believe in is a hoax? Hahahahaha

You are the fool if someone is addressing you with facts and the only thing you can counter with is sentiments and insults.

tintingz:
What truth?

Tintingz ignore this guy now.

sarahade:


Tintingz ignore this guy now.

I'm trying too.