@johnydon22

Your thoughts on this video.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKlgYcd-peU

LordReed:


So what do you think about this freewill video clip?

We have limited freewill. A lot of things we do are predetermined by genes and environment.

There are some choices we make that we don't really make. For instance, we African men tend to prefer women with bigger butts. The simple reason is because of the genetics of healthy African women and the popular fixation on butts in the society.

JeromeBlack:


We have limited freewill. A lot of things we do are predetermined by genes and environment.

There are some choices we make that we don't really make. For instance, we African men tend to prefer women with bigger butts. The simple reason is because of the genetics of healthy African women and the popular fixation on butts in the society.

While I agree that we have wills, it's the free part that confuses me atm. Are our wills in anyway free if they are shackled to cause and effect? Can you choose not to feel pain if I jabbed you with a needle? Can you choose when to feel hungry? What exactly constitutes a "free" will even if limited?

LordReed:


While I agree that we have wills, it's the free part that confuses me atm. Are our wills in anyway free if they are shackled to cause and effect? Can you choose not to feel pain if I jabbed you with a needle? Can you choose when to feel hungry? What exactly constitutes a "free" will even if limited?

A freewill means to exercise choice, in my opinion.

I am going to watch Little 2019 again in the cinemas again.

Very funny movie

JeromeBlack:


A freewill means to exercise choice, in my opinion.

So would you consider that something like AI has freewill?

LordReed:


So would you consider that something like AI has freewill?

It depends on the level of programming. Some AI have been limited to always taking the logical path.


It we can achieve true AI where the computer learns and makes its own judgement, yes AI can have a limited freewill

JeromeBlack:


It depends on the level of programming. Some AI have been limited to always taking the logical path.


It we can achieve true AI where the computer learns and makes its own judgement, yes AI can have a limited freewill

So what do you think is limited the ability to exercise or the choices themselves?

LordReed:


So what do you think is limited the ability to exercise or the choices themselves?

Genetics and environment.

Tell me, why do you know Cristiano Ronaldo? If you were born in India, would you care about football? More like Cricket!

You might think liking football is your choice but it is because of your environment and because you are a man and "manly sports" like football is encouraged where you grew up.

Do you think that it was your choice to be an atheist? It was your intelligence, education and experience. It was always going to happen one day or another. There are some people that will never leave religion despite how it damages their lives. There are poor people that will tithe till they die in penury. Their environment, lack of proper education and exposure will always strangle their reasoning abilities.

LordReed:


Except thats not the scenario being presented. You are going back to that decision point without any extra knowledge, if you did then you have fundamentally changed the past already.

As in, with all extra knowledge deleted as I go back in time? I wouldn't have knowledge of going back either as I'd have no knowledge of ever going forward?

I must admit that I can't get my head around "the scenario being presented". If I go back to yesterday with no knowledge of today I'd very likely go back and make the same choices I made yesterday since I know no better. But isn't this exactly what happens when one forgets history and keeps repeating the same mistakes because they lack a simple feedback loop?

budaatum:

As in, with all extra knowledge deleted as I go back in time? I wouldn't have knowledge of going back either as I'd have no knowledge of ever going forward?

I must admit that I can't get my head around "the scenario being presented". If I go back to yesterday with no knowledge of today I'd very likely go back and make the same choices I made yesterday since I know no better.

That is exactly what he was saying.

JeromeBlack:



Genetics and environment.

Tell me, why do you know Cristiano Ronaldo? If you were born in India, would you care about football? More like Cricket!

You might think liking football is your choice but it is because of your environment and because you are a man and "manly sports" like football is encouraged where you grew up.

Do you think that it was your choice to be an atheist? It was your intelligence, education and experience. It was always going to happen one day or another. There are some people that will never leave religion despite how it damages their lives. There are poor people that will tithe till they die in penury. Their environment, lack of proper education and exposure will always strangle their reasoning abilities.

Hmmmm.....

JeromeBlack:



Genetics and environment.

Tell me, why do you know Cristiano Ronaldo? If you were born in India, would you care about football? More like Cricket!

You might think liking football is your choice but it is because of your environment and because you are a man and "manly sports" like football is encouraged where you grew up.

Do you think that it was your choice to be an atheist? It was your intelligence, education and experience. It was always going to happen one day or another. There are some people that will never leave religion despite how it damages their lives. There are poor people that will tithe till they die in penury. Their environment, lack of proper education and exposure will always strangle their reasoning abilities.

My choices are determined by the knowledge I have received no doubt, but I still have the choice of increasing my knowledge and thereby my choices.

My atheism for instances was intellectual, as in, based on my reading, an ability beaten into me by ma. I guess if she'd beat stealing, or fornication into me I might prefer doing those things instead of reading a book (though, saying that, there's a lot she beat into me that didn't quite take). I still do have a lot of say in what I read, and the knowledge I have and how it affects me. Incidentally, that same reading is what's made me a theist, a choice I have made from my understanding.

Consider life as a journey down a road with turn offs along it but without you having a specific destination in mind. When there are no turnings you have no choice than to plod on, but when you get to a cross road you have to decide to turn right or left with your free will. Your will might be influenced by preconceived notions - a like for right or left turns, the trees look greener, someone told you to always right or left turn, your belief that a particular turns lead to heaven etc, but the choice is still yours and freely made, as in without external coercion, except that which you allow with your freewill.

LordReed:


That is exactly what he was saying.

Well, I don't exactly forget yesterday so easily and doubt this could work outside science fiction or brain damage. Barring either of those I'd be going back with everything I picked up along the way and would very likely make better informed and thereby different choices. But even if the scenario holds as he was saying, I would still be exercising my freewill at the point I return to even whilst being limited in my knowledge. The fact that I may be stupid does not mean I do not freely choose with my freewill.

budaatum:

My choices are determined by the knowledge I have received no doubt, but I still have the choice of increasing my knowledge and thereby my choices.

My atheism for instances was intellectual, as in, based on my reading, an ability beaten into me by ma. I guess if she'd beat stealing, or fornication into me I might prefer doing those things instead of reading a book (though, saying that, there's a lot she beat into me that didn't quite take). I still do have a lot of say in what I read, and the knowledge I have and how it affects me. Incidentally, that same reading is what's made me a theist, a choice I have made from my understanding.

Consider life as a journey down a road with turn offs along it but without you having a specific destination in mind. When there are no turnings you have no choice than to plod on, but when you get to a cross road you have to decide to turn right or left with your free will. Your will might be influenced by preconceived notions - a like for right or left turns, the trees look greener, someone told you to always right or left turn, your belief that a particular turns lead to heaven etc, but the choice is still yours and freely made, as in without external coercion, except that which you allow with your freewill.

Choice is usually an illusion.

JeromeBlack:


Choice is usually an illusion.

For you, perhaps. I've run out of butter so I'm choosing right now to go to Asda to buy some to go with the bread I baked. I should have bought some since Monday, but didn't so my toast has been dry all week. I can assure you that there will be nothing illusionary when I spread that butter on my bread tomorrow morning. As to my freewill butter buying, you have motivated me to exercise it to prove my point and will be posting said butter as evidence as soon as I get it home in approximately 45 mins.

budaatum:

For you, perhaps. I've run out of butter so I'm choosing right now to go to Asda to buy some to go with the bread I baked. I should have bought some since Monday, but didn't so my toast has been dry all week. I can assure you that there will be nothing illusionary when I spread that butter on my bread tomorrow morning. As to my freewill butter buying, you have motivated me to exercise it to prove my point and will be posting said butter as evidence as soon as I get it home in approximately 45 mins.

Why Asda? Why not tesco? Why not Aldi? Or Morrisons?

And why the specific butter brand? Why not buy margarine or cheese to go with your toast?

Its all an illusion of a choice

JeromeBlack:


Why Asda? Why not tesco? Why not Aldi? Or Morrisons?

And why the specific butter brand? Why not buy margarine or cheese to go with your toast?

Its all an illusion of a choice

Asda because they are the cheapest near me. I passed Aldi on the way and Tescos is just a further stop on a bus at no extra cost. I bought Lurpak butter. Its about the only one on the shelf with 100% buttermilk. All the rest are 28 or so percent with rapseed and palm oil. If I wanted palm oil there's a Yoruba woman selling it across the road. I bought flour too ( for bread making), olive oil and mushrooms for my supper tonight of rice with fish in a tomato and mushroom sauce. All freely chosen by me and no one or nothing else. And as you can see, none is an illusion.

budaatum:

Asda because they are the cheapest near me. I passed Aldi on the way and Tescos is just a further stop on a bus at no extra cost. I bought Lurpak butter. Its about the only one on the shelf with 100% buttermilk. All the rest are 28 or so percent with rapseed and palm oil. If I wanted palm oil there's a Yoruba woman selling it across the road. I bought flour too ( for bread making), olive oil and mushrooms for my supper tonight of rice with fish in a tomato and mushroom sauce. All freely chosen by me and no one or nothing else. And as you can see, none is an illusion.

Lies.

You bought lurpak butter because it is sweet. That butter is like heaven when you put it on hot bread.

I can see that you are trying to live on a healthy diet. That is no coincidence. You might see these things as choice but you are still in the matrix.

It is a biological algorithm consisting of multiple facts from.your life.

-you are getting older
- you are educated enough to know the importance of healthy food.
-you are picking butter over margarine because you know better.

LordReed:
@johnydon22

Your thoughts on this video.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKlgYcd-peU

We could see one of these days and discuss about them

johnydon22:
We could see one of these days and discuss about them

That would be nice.

JeromeBlack:


Lies.

You bought lurpak butter because it is sweet. That butter is like heaven when you put it on hot bread.

I can see that you are trying to live on a healthy diet. That is no coincidence. You might see these things as choice but you are still in the matrix.

It is a biological algorithm consisting of multiple facts from.your life.

-you are getting older
- you are educated enough to know the importance of healthy food.
-you are picking butter over margarine because you know better.

You speak as if my "getting older", being "educated" and "knowing better", all had nothing to do with me and my freedom to act as I please!

For your information, despite having been purchasing mostly Lurpak butter which is one of the dearest, I still stood by the butter fridge reading the small print on the packs of many butters to see what was in them before choosing Lurpak as I have done numerous times in numerous supermarkets around me. I've found the butter makers have changed the ingredients in their butters without stating it clearly in the large print.

I "live on a healthy diet" out of choice and not because some divine being or some "biological algorithm" predestined me to. But if a "biological algorithm" (whatever that means) had anything to do with it, it is an algorithm which I have personally intellectually determined would by my very own freewill, which if I hadn't developed with my freewill would ensure I had no say whatsoever in my butter choice.

budaatum:

You speak as if my "getting older", being "educated" and "knowing better", all had nothing to do with me and my freedom to act as I please!

For your information, despite having been purchasing mostly Lurpak butter which is one of the dearest, I still stood by the butter fridge reading the small print on the packs of many butters to see what was in them before choosing Lurpak as I have done numerous times in numerous supermarkets around me. I've found the butter makers have changed the ingredients in their butters without stating it clearly in the large print.

I "live on a healthy diet" out of choice and not because some divine being or some "biological algorithm" predestined me to. But if a "biological algorithm" (whatever that means) had anything to do with it, it is an algorithm which I have personally intellectually determined would by my very own freewill, which if I hadn't developed with my freewill would ensure I had no say whatsoever in my butter choice.

It is not totally your choice to get that butter. Your genetics and environment led you to choose.


Imagine if you were lactose intolerant, would you be eating lurpak butter?

Imagine if you didn't live in the uk, wouldn't it be blue band margarine in Nigeria you would be using for your bread?

Imagine if you grew up in Japan and preferred to eat noodles for breakfast instead of bread?

I use lurpak when I'm in the UK as well.

JeromeBlack:



It is not totally your choice to get that butter. Your genetics and environment led you to choose.


Imagine if you were lactose intolerant, would you be eating lurpak butter?

Imagine if you didn't live in the uk, wouldn't it be blue band margarine in Nigeria you would be using for your bread?

Imagine if you grew up in Japan and preferred to eat noodles for breakfast instead of bread?

I use lurpak when I'm in the UK as well.

I was not predestined to buy Lurpak despite the limitations of the environment I may be in. I could very well chose to do without as I had done since Monday or I can go and buy a cow and make my own butter. I stay away from margarine wherever I am. I don't, like some, become Roman just because I flew to Rome!

budaatum:

I was not predestined to buy Lurpak despite the limitations of the environment I may be in. I could very well chose to do without as I had done since Monday or I can go and buy a cow and make my own butter. I stay away from margarine wherever I am. I don't, like some, become Roman just because I flew to Rome!

You didn't choose to eat dry toast.

You just didn't have the time to buy butter. But later, the butter called to you.

You couldn't resist. After 3 days of dry toast, your body couldn't take it. Like an addict to the cocaine, you ran to the shop for the butter.

It is as if it is a biological need.

Where is the choice in that?

JeromeBlack:



You didn't choose to eat dry toast.

You just didn't have the time to buy butter. But later, the butter called to you.

You couldn't resist. After 3 days of dry toast, your body couldn't take it. Like an addict to the cocaine, you ran to the shop for the butter.

It is as if it is a biological need.

Where is the choice in that?

Sorry man, but I have the feeling you have no will to freely utilise and think everyone is not free like you are not free. I used butter to illustrate, but wonder what you'd say about other uses of my will if you knew about them.

Perhaps it's an age thing or an education one and you just don't know better. I find it in some religious people who have so little will that they could be described as a tram that only runs on a track like

'the young man who said, "Damn
At last I perceive that I am
But a creature that moves
In predestinate grooves:
I'm not even a bus – but a tram!"
Undaunted, he added, "O cuss!
The situation grows steadily wuss:
I'll go on my way,
Whatever they say,
For I won't be a tram – I'm a bus!"'

At a certain point in life one sure knows that one is not a tram nor a bus that only goes to predestined designated stops, but a car, a sportscar even, that can go wherever it wishes to go like a will one can freely use as one wishes.

You sir need to take responsibility and stop delegating your will to some divine controlling predestinating entity, you very lazy theist!

Read!
https://www.nairaland.com/5168729/free-re-examination/1#78124519

budaatum:

Sorry man, but I have the feeling you have no will to freely utilise and think everyone is not free like you are not free. I used butter to illustrate, but wonder what you'd say about other uses of my will if you knew about them.

Perhaps it's an age thing or an education one and you just don't know better. I find it in some religious people who have so little will that they could be described as a tram that only runs on a track like

'the young man who said, "Damn
At last I perceive that I am
But a creature that moves
In predestinate grooves:
I'm not even a bus – but a tram!"
Undaunted, he added, "O cuss!
The situation grows steadily wuss:
I'll go on my way,
Whatever they say,
For I won't be a tram – I'm a bus!"'

At a certain point in life one sure knows that one is not a tram nor a bus that only goes to predestined designated stops, but a car, a sportscar even, that can go wherever it wishes to go like a will one can freely use as one wishes.

You sir need to take responsibility and stop delegating your will to some divine controlling predestinating entity, you very lazy theist!

Read!
https://www.nairaland.com/5168729/free-re-examination/1#78124519

Bro, understand that I was adding a little humor to my post.

I was just trying to illustrate how your choice is not truly a free choice. There were other factors apart from your conscious decision in making that choice.

Very simple. This is why some atheists say that there is no freewill.

JeromeBlack:



Bro, understand that I was adding a little humor to my post.

I was just trying to illustrate how your choice is not truly a free choice. There were other factors apart from your conscious decision in making that choice.

Very simple. This is why some atheists say that there is no freewill.

To be honest I could not understand what people were saying when they said freewill was an illusion. I was like "What?! That's a terrible view point!". Now I look at the concepts and our experience and I understand why they say its an illusion even though I still have reservations.

JeromeBlack:



Bro, understand that I was adding a little humor to my post.

I was just trying to illustrate how your choice is not truly a free choice. There were other factors apart from your conscious decision in making that choice.

Very simple. This is why some atheists say that there is no freewill.

I know you were being humorous. It's just that my humour tendencies go missing sometimes and I go overseriously humourless in my writings. But I humour all the same. I homourously called you a theist, and will add an insult to it in the following.

There are indeed many "other factors" which may appear to limit one's freewill. Birth circumstances alone are a significant example. One has no choice in one's parents or place of birth and no one could argue much that they don't have a rather important impact on the choices one is subsequently faced with. Being born is like finding oneself on a road in the middle of no where. It could be one were unfortunate to have stupid parents or just poor ones who would rather you go work on their farm than study at school. They could just die even or one might be born where some stupid god or false ideology is drummed into everyone. But even without right or left turns on your road, you still get to chose which direction you travel, and that choice is not one that has been 'divinely' determined in advance. That 'divine' was me humorously 'insulting', atheist Jerome, because whichever way you see it, predestination does imply a predestinating entity that is best described as some sort of god which is an odd position for an atheist to take. But freewill goes beyond the theist-atheist arguments we have on here.

As you may understand from the post I referred you to, I'm claiming that if Yahweh exists, according to scripture he gave humans freewill with his "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground". Even if one wished to argue that this were not case, they must have gotten freewill from somewhere because Adam and Eve definitely exercised their own will when they disobeyed God and ate the fruit of the tree they were told not to. But you just wait for my fellow theists to accuse me of atheist thinking!

We have freewill, Jerome, and not realising that we do is, using theistic language, a ploy of satan to deceive people, because, the day you know how free your will is and how to use it, you'd understand what is meant by "Ye are gods; children of the most High", which those who preach would rather you not know because when you do know that you have freewill you will become a "judge of the earth and shalt inherit all nations", but worse for some will you stop paying tithes or pay it to God directly instead which would be very bad for church business!

Read here what they made people do to the dude who told them they have freewill. Then consider the lies they told to make those same people not realise that they had exercised their own freewill least they "weep for themselves and for their children" if they but knew what they had done.

What do you guys think of this:Germany’s health minister proposes a $2,790 anti-vaxxer charge. The country’s health minister also suggests banning unvaccinated children from daycares.

SOURCE

LordReed:
What do you guys think of this:Germany’s health minister proposes a $2,790 anti-vaxxer charge. The country’s health minister also suggests banning unvaccinated children from daycares.

Links to sources so we know what you're talking about please.