₦airaland Forum

cc: Barristter07

shadeyinka:
Instead of responding logical and intelligently, you are busy ranting up and down like atheists on Nairaland!

Your argument was that since eyes, tongue and body was mentioned with respect to the rich man, then Jesus couldn't have been talking about hell but the lake of fire! Unfortunately, if I have assented to the fact that it is the lake of fire,you would have come against me by justifying that Jesus was simply stating a parable!

Now that you where cornered, you feign "old post syndrome"!

Please respond to the argument at hand!
Were you justified to say that the rich man had a body and hence couldn't have been in Hell?

He simply said Jesus mention hell NOT lake of fire. So don't twist lake of fire into Matthew 10:28, what he said was Hell

And when you quote rich man and Lazarus, the story mention Hell buy we found that the man has his physical body intact.

He even has a Tongue to taste water. Physical body
Which thrash your submission that ordinary soul go to hell

Think man

shadeyinka:
Instead of responding logical and intelligently, you are busy ranting up and down like atheists on Nairaland!

Your argument was that since eyes, tongue and body was mentioned with respect to the rich man, then Jesus couldn't have been talking about hell but the lake of fire! Unfortunately, if I have assented to the fact that it is the lake of fire,you would have come against me by justifying that Jesus was simply stating a parable!

Now that you where cornered, you feign "old post syndrome"!

Please respond to the argument at hand!
Were you justified to say that the rich man had a body and hence couldn't have been in Hell?

Thrash at bold , his position all along was if hell exist. Body and soul should go there going By Jesus statement at Matthew 10:28.

Its you that need to Justify your lie that only soul go to hell when the Lord added " body "

shadeyinka:
Instead of responding logical and intelligently, you are busy ranting up and down like atheists on Nairaland!

Your ARGUMENT was that since eyes, tongue and body was mentioned with respect to the rich man, then Jesus couldn't have been talking about hell but the lake of fire! Unfortunately, if I have assented to the fact that it is the lake of fire,you would have come against me by justifying that Jesus was simply stating a parable!

Now that you where cornered, you feign "old post syndrome"!

Please respond to the ARGUMENT at hand!
Were you justified to say that the rich man had a body and hence couldn't have been in Hell?

That word ARGUMENT is what i abhor!
That was why i set rules before we began discussing, and thank you for the appropriation done during the change of topic from 'NOTES' to 'Discussion {NOT argument} on doctrine between a Christian and a Jehovah's Witness'
So now that it has turned to arguments perhaps you can now grasp why i keep hammering on 'Simple and friendly presentation of our beliefs' Because i'm 100% sure that if not done in line with the directives from the Master of the job {Jesus} there can never be any positive fruitage!
We MUST speak in PERSON with the one we want to preach to FACE TO FACE so that the listener will not just learn through our words alone but thoughts and actions! As they contemplate how our conducts turn out, they will be moved to imitate our faith. That is how Jesus instituted this WORK, NOT to be done FACELESSLY on social media!
Let us pray for God's holy spirit that will help us to be humble enough to submit ourselves willingly to theocratic order!

Barristter07:
I knew it and Good you ran into the tunnel!

I saved a post the other time. When you were questioned on whether Jesus spirit return to Hus Father , You Shadeyinka responded - God doesn't have literal hands , since he is spirit.

Let's apply this to the story of Rich man below

Cheers

Mat 5:22:
"But I say to you, That whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whoever shall say, You fool, shall be in danger of hell fire . "

Mat 18:9:
"And if your eye offend you, pluck it out, and cast it from you: it is better for you to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire ."

Mar 9:45:
"And if your foot offend you, cut it off: it is better for you to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:"


Please from the Scriptures above, justify that hell is just a mere grave!??

Barristter07:
Oh yeah!

Someone who died in a flood is in the sea.
I know you would have to LIE and Manipulate facts to wriggle yourself out of this.

This one means physical body but Hell doesn't mean Physical body ? MUST YOU Fabricate lies

Whatever apply to the sea , apply to hell. Both says Dead ( meaning everything ) .

I guess souls are trapped in the sea


BODY, BODY and Soul. Physical body too - Matt 10:28

Does the rich man have his physical body or not ?

The rich MAN proved you a LIAR .

Is the physical body not in hell ?

Since your understanding is beclouded, let me ask you a practical question


On February 1, 2003, the Space Shuttle Columbia disintegrated upon reentering Earth's atmosphere, killing all seven crew members. The disaster was the second fatal accident in the Space Shuttle program, after Challenger, which broke apart and killed the seven-member crew 73 seconds after liftoff in 1986.

The Question:
If during a space exploration to Mars, an astronaut who doesn't know God dies deep in space,

1. Would he be part of the resurrection of the dead?
2. Since he doesn't know God, would he experience the second death?

Above for your kind consideration!

CAPTIVATOR:
Fraud! Hell release the dead in it means souls were released , that's NOT ressurection , because resurrection is not just release but bringing back to life.

You are perpetrating a fraud in there, whatever apply to hell should apply to sea .

Since you do not know the definition of death, it's not surprising that this is how you see it.

Resurrection is the recombination of the Soul/Spirit of man with his Body!

The Physical Body can only be brought back to life when there is a reunion of his spirit, soul and body.

TATIME:
If they're not ready to FIRST adjust all the blunders of their former founders[Matthew 3:7-12] God's holy spirit will not work with them. That's why all their efforts is not yielding good fruits as all their followers are nothing to right home about unlike the JWs whose foundation is solid and everyone can feel their activities globally! Those killing them don't know anything, what the spirit influencing those terrorist is against is the Bible which they're carrying!
So our God differs from theirs, don't be deceived with their travelling here and their only to establish the teachings of their human founders! Matthew 23:15

These are the words of Jesus in Matthew 18 v 19-20;

19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.

20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.




Jesus says where 2 or 3 are gathered IN HIS NAME, He is in their midst.

Does this verse only apply to JW members or everyone who gathers in the name of Jesus?

Maximus69:
When i agreed to discuss with him, i set some rules that will not lead both of us into bitter and hurtful arguments.
Just
¤Present your current conclusion on each Bible text!
¤Annalise the practical applications thereof!
¤Direct followers to doers of what you're saying!
¤Explain the benefits SEEN in the life of adherents!
NOT just saying 'you're wrong, i'm right' which will not yield any benefits for both participants and followers.
If that is how all threads on NL is organised, followers only need to carefully examine the thoughts, words and actions of each participant to know who is truly operating with God's holy spirit, and who is just heady about common human traditions!

Thank you!

shadeyinka:
Since you do not know the definition of death, it's not surprising that this is how you see it.

Resurrection is the recombination of the Soul/Spirit of man with his Body!

The Physical Body can only be brought back to life when there is a reunion of his spirit, soul and body.

That's not my question. What is in both sea and hell Is called " Dead ".

Define death in the context of sea release the dead .. ? Since you said these are physical bodies. It means death is opposite of life.

Hell release the ? Dead . are you saying there are dead spirits/souls ?

CAPTIVATOR:
@ shadeyinka

You admit its a ressurection verse. But your explanation defeat this. If sea releasing dead bodies means bringing their dead body back to life.

By saying Hell releasing souls/spirit , are you implying soul and spirit die just like the body so that they need to be ressurected ? LOL

You believe in two kinds of death, I believe their are three kinds of death. So, when you speak of death, let's know the one you are talking about.

If a person dies, what happens:
His body go to his grave (if he has any)
His soul/spirit goes to the place of the dead

If he is a righteous person in the eyes of the Lord, he goes to the place where Abraham is.
But

If he is an unrighteous person in the eyes of the Lord, he goes to the place of discomfort called Hell

At Resurection of the Dead at the end of the world: everyone is recombined with their Physical Bodies. And the judgement takes place thereafter

Rev 20:12-15: "And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

Anyone whose name is not found in the book of life is cast into the lake of fire.

I believe the bolded has answered your question

You would have done well to answer his question, does Body go to hell or not ?

Is the physical body of the rich man not present ?
What is tongue and water doing in hell if body doesn't go there according to that story ?

Still there for your consideration !

shadeyinka:
Since your understanding is beclouded, let me ask you a practical question


On February 1, 2003, the Space Shuttle Columbia disintegrated upon reentering Earth's atmosphere, killing all seven crew members. The disaster was the second fatal accident in the Space Shuttle program, after Challenger, which broke apart and killed the seven-member crew 73 seconds after liftoff in 1986.

The Question:
If during a space exploration to Mars, an astronaut who doesn't know God dies deep in space,

1. Would he be part of the resurrection of the dead?
2. Since he doesn't know God, would he experience the second death?

Above for your kind consideration!

Space was his Grave, the Grave release the dead in it . Rev 20:13

CAPTIVATOR:
cc: Barristter07




He simply said Jesus mention hell NOT lake of fire. So don't twist lake of fire into Matthew 10:28, what he said was Hell

And when you quote rich man and Lazarus, the story mention Hell buy we found that the man has his physical body intact.

He even has a Tongue to taste water. Physical body
Which thrash your submission that ordinary soul go to hell

Think man

Did Jesus once mentioned specifically the Lake of Fire?

shadeyinka:
You believe in two kinds of death, I believe their are three kinds of death. So, when you speak of death, let's know the one you are talking about.

If a person dies, what happens:
His body go to his grave (if he has any)
His soul/spirit goes to the place of the dead

If he is a righteous person in the eyes of the Lord, he goes to the place where Abraham is.
But

Faulty !

Explain how Abel can go to where Abraham is when he died ?

If he is an unrighteous person in the eyes of the Lord, he goes to the place of discomfort called Hell

At Resurection of the Dead at the end of the world: everyone is recombined with their Physical Bodies. And the judgement takes place thereafter

Rev 20:12-15: "And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

Anyone whose name is not found in the book of life is cast into the lake of fire.

I believe the bolded has answered your question

It never said such thing like body and spirit reunion. Don't read your mind into it.

Sea release dead things

Hell release dead .

If you insist what hell release are spirits and souls, are you saying Soul dies ?

Again : Your analysis o

shadeyinka:
Did Jesus once mentioned specifically the Lake of Fire?

He mentioned hell.

So BODY and soul ought to be in hell ! - Matthew 10'28

CAPTIVATOR:
Thrash at bold , his position all along was if hell exist. Body and soul should go there going By Jesus statement at Matthew 10:28.

Its you that need to Justify your lie that only soul go to hell when the Lord added " body "

1. Is his argument that Hell doesn't exist?
2. Is his argument that the soul also go into the grave?

How many times would I state that:
Jesus didn't distinguish between Hell and the Lake of Fire in all the gospels! If He did, please tell us.

shadeyinka:
1. Is his argument that Hell doesn't exist?

If it does, physical Body and soul should go there.

2. Is his argument that the soul also go into the grave?

What goes to sea, goes to Grave

How many times would I state that:
Jesus didn't distinguish between Hell and the Lake of Fire in all the gospels! If He did, please tell us.

If Jesus meant lake of fire won't he have said it


He said Hell and hell isn't lake of fire.

So explain how body and soul go there ?

The story you quote even support physical body in hell .

Maximus69:
That word ARGUMENT is what i abhor!
That was why i set rules before we began discussing, and thank you for the appropriation done during the change of topic from 'NOTES' to 'Discussion {NOT argument} on doctrine between a Christian and a Jehovah's Witness'
So now that it has turned to arguments perhaps you can now grasp why i keep hammering on 'Simple and friendly presentation of our beliefs' Because i'm 100% sure that if not done in line with the directives from the Master of the job {Jesus} there can never be any positive fruitage!
We MUST speak in PERSON with the one we want to preach to FACE TO FACE so that the listener will not just learn through our words alone but thoughts and actions! As they contemplate how our conducts turn out, they will be moved to imitate our faith. That is how Jesus instituted this WORK, NOT to be done FACELESSLY on social media!
Let us pray for God's holy spirit that will help us to be humble enough to submit ourselves willingly to theocratic order!

You had corrected him and that's where I'll want it to lie.

I thought the thread was closed until he came up until CAPTIVATOR and Barristter07 came up with insulting words like LIE, LIAR and insisting on statements without any biblical justifications. I didn't find them different from when you engage atheists on NL threads.

You know me: if they behave, it can be a discussion!
Thanks again (because I saw you had called one of them to order)

shadeyinka:
You had corrected him and that's where I'll want it to lie.

I thought the thread was closed until he came up until CAPTIVATOR and Barristter07 came up with insulting words like LIE, LIAR and insisting on statements without any biblical justifications. I didn't find them different from when you engage atheists on NL threads.

You know me: if they behave, it can be a discussion!
Thanks again (because I saw you had called one of them to order)

Who insults you ?

Liar is not an insult ... Unless you didn't lie

Okay sorry. Questions still stands

Matt 10:28 is a statement with biblical justification . needs to be solved

CAPTIVATOR:
That's not my question. What is in both sea and hell Is called " Dead ".

Define death in the context of sea release the dead .. ? Since you said these are physical bodies. It means death is opposite of life.

Hell release the ? Dead . are you saying there are dead spirits/souls ?

I guess I should ask you the Question I asked Maximus:
1. What is death?
2. How many kinds of death did the scripture describe?

Only after that can we discuss from the same bearing!

shadeyinka:
Mat 5:22:
"But I say to you, That whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whoever shall say, You fool, shall be in danger of hell fire . "

Mat 18:9:
"And if your eye offend you, pluck it out, and cast it from you: it is better for you to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire ."

Mar 9:45:
"And if your foot offend you, cut it off: it is better for you to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:"


Please from the Scriptures above, justify that hell is just a mere grave!??

Now you agree its hell not lake of fire, but once Matthew 10:28 is quote you Sing another song


Okay, if the above justify physical body in hell, Eyes, Foot , hands ... Are u now ready to explain Body and soul in Hell ?

shadeyinka:
I guess I should ask you the Question I asked Maximus:
1. What is death?
2. How many kinds of death did the scripture describe?

Only after that can we discuss from the same bearing!

Shhhhh , sea release the dead means what ? You said physically dead bodies. That means dead in this case is opposite of life.

So with regard to Rev 20:13, what are the " dead " in hell ?

Barristter07:
Solite3 . hahahahaha Mi o le rerin o ( I Cannot laugh ooo )


The " a " was an addition by the translators , Now you are fighting for the inclusion of " a" but if it's found at John 1:1 of NWT , its wrong

, I will bookmark this

So back to the matter .

God IS SPIRIT



He born of of spirit IS SPIRIT

Something is clear !

God is Spirit and God is a Spirit can be correct but saying the word was a god is totally wrong.

He that is born of the spirit is spirit not is a spirit.

CAPTIVATOR:
You would have done well to answer his question, does Body go to hell or not ?

1. Is the physical body of the rich man not present ?
2. What is tongue and water doing in hell if body doesn't go there according to that story ?

Still there for your consideration !



1. Space was his Grave, the Grave release the dead in it . Rev 20:13

1. The Rich Man's Physical body was in the grave
Luk 16:22:
"And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;"
BUT
The Rich mans Spiritual Body was in Hell
Luk 16:23:
"And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and sees Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom."

2. What is tongue and water doing in hell?
The physical is just a copy of what exists in the spiritual

Rev 20:1: "And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand."

Rev 20:11: "And I saw a great white throne , and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them."

Rev 21:10-13
: "And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, Having the glory of God: and her light was like to a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal; And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates."


Rev 22:1-2:
"And he showed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. In the middle of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life , which bore twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations."

Here are some highlights of things that are supposed to be found exclusively on earth.

CAPTIVATOR:
Faulty !

1. Explain how Abel can go to where Abraham is when he died ?



It never said such thing like body and spirit reunion. Don't read your mind into it.

Sea release dead things

Hell release dead .

2. If you insist what hell release are spirits and souls, are you saying Soul dies ?

Again : Your analysis o

On: Explain how Abel can go to where Abraham is when he died ?

The fact that Adam or Abel wasn't mentioned does not preclude them. Abraham was used because we know as a fact that Abraham is "the Father of Faith".
Hebrew 11 give us a small list even before Abraham

Heb 11:4:
"By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaks."

Luk 23:42-43:
"And he said to Jesus, Lord, remember me when you come into your kingdom. And Jesus said to him, Truly I say to you, To day shall you be with me in paradise."

This is the place Jesus was speaking about. Where the righteous stay while awaiting Physical/Bodily Resurection!

1. Do you think Jesus was speaking untruth by using the word "today!"?
2. Does it make any sense that the paradise Jesus was speaking about is none other than the grave?


On: If you insist what hell release are spirits and souls, are you saying Soul dies ?
The Physical Grave is where Physical Bodies are kept after death
Hell (Before Resurrection) is the place where the souls of unrighteous souls are kept after death?

This hell is a "prison" where the unrighteous souls are kept till the final judgement day

The soul never goes into a state of inexistence!

CAPTIVATOR:
He mentioned hell.

So BODY and soul ought to be in hell ! - Matthew 10'28

You didn't answer my question:
Did Jesus ever mentioned even once about the Lake of Fire?

CAPTIVATOR:
If it does, physical Body and soul should go there.



What goes to sea, goes to Grave



If Jesus meant lake of fire won't he have said it


He said Hell and hell isn't lake of fire.

So explain how body and soul go there ?

The story you quote even support physical body in hell .

Why do you always avoid a direct Question?

I asked you about his believes and instead of answering, you changed the topic by asking me to explain how body and soul go there ?

I asked you a question:
Did Jesus ever mentioned even once about the Lake of Fire?

CAPTIVATOR:
Now you agree its hell not lake of fire, but once Matthew 10:28 is quote you Sing another song


Okay, if the above justify physical body in hell, Eyes, Foot , hands ... Are u now ready to explain Body and soul in Hell ?

I always answer your questions BUT you don't answer mine, only for you to counter-ask another question.

Please go back and answer my question, then I'll answer yours:

My question was:
Please from the Scriptures above, justify that hell is just a mere grave!??

CAPTIVATOR:
Shhhhh , sea release the dead means what ? You said physically dead bodies. That means dead in this case is opposite of life.

So with regard to Rev 20:13, what are the " dead " in hell ?

Again, see how you ignored two simple questions and then counter-asked another question.

Please answer my questions, then, I'll joyfully answer yours!

shadeyinka:
I always answer your questions BUT you don't answer mine, only for you to counter-ask another question.

Please go back and answer my question, then I'll answer yours:

You are the first to quote Matthew 10:28 and rich man story . Justify yourself

My question was:
Please from the Scriptures above, justify that hell is just a mere grave!??

It mentions BODY parts , do you agree body goes to hell ?

shadeyinka:
I asked you a question:
Did Jesus ever mentioned even once about the Lake of Fire?

Mentioned hell . now those texts say BODY goes to hell, do you agree ?

shadeyinka:
Mat 5:22:
"But I say to you, That whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whoever shall say, You fool, shall be in danger of hell fire . "

Mat 18:9:
"And if your eye offend you, pluck it out, and cast it from you: it is better for you to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire ."

Mar 9:45:
"And if your foot offend you, cut it off: it is better for you to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:"


Please from the Scriptures above, justify that hell is just a mere grave!??

Read the above verses from NWT or other translation that didn't use the word hell . Then you will wake up from your delusion.

Hell is Grave . compare the below and be enlightened

NLT


" The sea gave up its dead, and death and the grave gave up their dead. "

"
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: " KJB

" The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and Death and the Grave gave up the dead that were in them " CEB



Hell=Grave.

I actually asked you since you think Hell at Rev 20:13 is fire, How can Hell release Dead Souls ? Are those in hell not said to possess physical bodes too ?

shadeyinka:

On: Explain how Abel can go to where Abraham is when he died ?

The fact that Adam or Abel wasn't mentioned does not preclude them. Abraham was used because we know as a fact that Abraham is "the Father of Faith".
Hebrew 11 give us a small list even before Abraham

Heb 11:4:
"By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaks."

According to the rich man story, the righteous go to Abraham bosom. UNLESS you mean the story isn't real or a parable meaning something different from what its said , how then can Abel die and go to the bosom of a man not yet born ?

[quote]Luk 23:42-43:
"And he said to Jesus, Lord, remember me when you come into your kingdom. And Jesus said to him, Truly I say to you, To day shall you be with me in paradise."

This is the place Jesus was speaking about. Where the righteous stay while awaiting Physical/Bodily Resurection!

1. Do you think Jesus was speaking untruth by using the word "today!"?
2. Does it make any sense that the paradise Jesus was speaking about is none other than the grave?

Jesus spirit return to his Father that day . when did he go to Paradise ?

On: If you insist what hell release are spirits and souls, are you saying Soul dies ?
The Physical Grave is where Physical Bodies are kept after death
Hell (Before Resurrection) is the place where the souls of unrighteous souls are kept after death?


This hell is a "prison" where the unrighteous souls are kept till the final judgement day

The soul never goes into a state of inexistence!

This interpretation Is not right. Revelation 20:13 said Hell release " Dead " not " Living immortal souls " .

There Is a difference.