₦airaland Forum

Flawed Analogy between Enforced Zakat and Enforced Tax

Empyree: His approach emphasized importance of zakat. But today many don't take zakah serious until they enter their graves. I have equated zakat with modern Western civilization tax system.

Again, I've exposed the loopholes in this. There is so much difference between zakat and modern taxation.

Equating fighting and killing zakat defaulters to arresting and prosecuting tax defaulters

And if you are not citizen but green card holder, and you do not pay tax, forget about getting citizenship. You may even be deported for that.

So you can see how importance of zakat is. Do you blame US?. Absolutely not because these taxes they collected go a long way. This is why the country is what it is. From these taxes they are able to fund elderly and disabled, retirement funds, all types of social benefits, roads, electric, water and sewer and the list is very long.

This is what zakat also do. So if US does not take tax lightly, why would Abu take those people lightly?. Abu Bakr waged war on apostates at that time is tantamount to US govt jailing or deporting people because of tax.

The only difference is one has religious connotation the other is seen from another perspective but they both shared same goal.

Hmmm...? What is this? So much difference exist between the two. I tackled the differences - What is so WRONG in enforcing Zakat.

If I live under sharia and they come to collect my zakat, I can tell them that I'm not paying to them.
If they insist, I can tell them to "F' off", and that "I'm no longer a Muslim, and don't have to pay zakat". I continue to secretly practice Islam, pay my zakat directly to the poor by myself when ever I'm ready. Nowadays, nobody would border me. Of course, if I lived in the time of Abu Bakr, I'd be sentenced to death.

People become Muslims on their own. They don't owe anyone zakat but God. If the state is concerned about the poor, let the state decree a non-religious tax or reserve some fraction of the annual budget for the poor.

Justifying killing zakat defaulters with moral relativism

Empyree: You are comparing those days to this modern time?. Even at that, so called civilization kill people like chicken. Go to fb and you will see south americans the way they kill for fun. Those days, they may kill for "silly things". Today, those "silly things" are punishable by fines. So you dont blame them. Those days a king would simply killed for being mocked at by ordering head of someone. Today, they still do it by sanctions which kill innocent civilians. But for me, i do not distinguish modern civilization from ancient times in this situation.

Do yourself a favor by studying sharia from the classical tafsirs, hadith and fiqh. Reduce listening to modern apologists like Mufti Menk or Nouman Ali Khan, or even Yasir Qadhir. What Abu Bakr did to those who didn't pay zakat is not just the way people in those days are handled for not paying tax. It is the way of sharia.

Sharia is not human ethics that modifies with time. It is perfect, final, divine law immutable at all times.

Why do Muslims cherry pick sharia?

tru2god: The issue relating to how Abu Bakr treated apostates, and zakat offenders, is important because it is a prelude to any Islamic ruling in many part of the Muslim world on zakat-related matters. For the fact that you are not in a sharia-complaint country does not mean that it must not be discussed. If, for whatever reason, you don't want it discussed 'no wahala'. You should also understand that the ulamas, in many countries,
has issued various fatwas based on the recorded actions of the sahabas, and not the prophet himself.

Empyree:
your antics will not work with me obviously. Take Iran and Saudi for instance, do you have proof that they kill Muslims because they evade or deny zakat?. Onus is on you to prove this. You need to understand there are other sohaba with different rulings after Abu Bakr (ra). So Muslim countries may choose whichever is in their best interest. However, do they even take zakat collection serious anymore?. I'm sure no.

It is because they realized how stupid those aspect of sharia is. It is the same reason why they no longer charge jizya. Muslims realize deep down that sharia is a flawed system, but they lack the gut to openly say this. Hence they resort to very lazy excuse for not following sharia laws, such as;

"No, that's not sharia law, sharia is 5 pillars, love your neighbor, good hygiene, respect for elders"
"No, Qur'an didn't say we should kill apostates"
"But the prophet never beat his wife"

Is Empyree lying about sharia or ignorant?

Albaqr: # Lastly on this: Point of consideration: Have you ever read various differing accounts as per why those Muslims led by a Sahabi refused to pay zakat to Abubakar, the new caliph? Here you are judging them in order to protect the caliph's action.

Empyree:
There are issue around Abu Bakr's judgement and there are different reports with some similarities.

After nabi's demise (saw), it is true that some muslims apostatized. Some simply refused to pay zakat not necessarily because they would not give allegiance to the new govt of Abu Bakr, they simply withheld their taxes, perhaps, "pending" their "observation and decision" on the new govt. Some also did not pay zakat due to misunderstanding of the Qur'anic text in question. These set of people which included Malik ibn Nuweira were recognized to be muslims by Abu Bakr. Abu Bakr (ra) would not kill them simply for withholding zakat. These people did not reject zakat tenet in itself. Where problems lie are the historical records.

Some said Abu Bakr killed them because they became apostates. This is too vague because Abu Bakr considered these people to be muslims. Matter of fact, there were physical evidences that they were indeed Muslims when Abu Bakr heard they withheld tax.

Haven't I gone through this already? By refusal to pay zakat, they automatically become apostates. In traditional Islam, you don't need to say, "I'm no more a Muslim" to become apostate. Just refusing salat and zakat permanently give you away as an apostate, even if you continue to practice other things in Islam.

All the Imams of fiqh agreed that any Muslim who deliberately neglect salat and zakat for more than 3 days is an apostate and sentenced to death. The fiqh is important in traditional Islam as it guides later Muslim generation to imitate the earliest generations. The earliest generations are describes as the best generation of Muslims.

Empyree can't understand Qur'an & Human Liberty

Albaqr: Fourth, "la Ikraha fi din". There is a type of "la" in Nawh (Arabic syntax and grammar) called "lam nafiyatul jins". This "lam of negation" does not spare ANYTHING. It is the same "la" used in "la ilaha ilah Allah". It negate EVERYTHING except Allah. Likewise, in "la ikraha fi din", it negate EVERY ACT OF FORCEFUL ACTION in practising religion. Besides, "ad-din" used in the ayat comprises ALL din. Islam inclusive. Therefore, if a Muslim decides not to pray or pay zakat or fast or go to hajj (despite meeting all conditions), you can only persuade and persuade NOT killing.

Empyree:
Let's not get something wrong here. "La ikraha fi Deen" as I said earlier doesn't apply to muslims in the sense that a Muslim already entered into the religion. He or she can not use this Ayah to support his it her position to evade salat, zakat, Ramadan and Hajj. At the same time it doesn't mean killing them because they do not observe these, no. This is what usermane think, that I support forcing or killing anyone who doesn't pray.

No, of course I knew he was against killing Muslims for not doing salat or zakat. But I find it upsetting that you deny killing is the legal penalty in sharia, and you think it is still OK to harrass and drag grown men to salat. I did my best to pinpoint the loopholes in your philosophy long ago on my thread on Human rights.

Empyree's insensitivity to his psychological manipulation

Empyree: He doesn't realize I was just pulling his leg.

No, man. No. He was not pulling my leg. He was being a jerk, wasting my time, and decide to frustrate, intimidate and guilt trip me after I pointed out most Muslims would not approve religious police pestering them for salat. I didn't understand him better then, so I fell for his psychological manipulation, and left posts that I shouldn't have.

Afterwards, I think I apologized & explained I could no longer engage with him on NairaLand again. And I stopped replying or reading his posts for several months. But this man won't leave me. He continued to haunt me on my threads, leaving ignorant or nasty comments, fighting with posters that agree with me.

He would troll and taunt me, call me hypocrite or ex-Muslim for identifying as a Muslim but critiquing Qur'an verses. And he'd remind me how much I owed him for his posting on my thread because no one else posts on my threads. All these behaviors are similar to those seen in personality disorders I've mentioned above.

Another look at Empyree's psychological manipulation

In this thread I'm commenting, Empyree again fights with tru2god. Somehow, tru2god's dabbling in the dirty secrets of Muslim history provoked him. He begins to berate and censure the tru2god, as usual with taunts. His paranoia so evident, as he assumes tru2god's intent in this is nefarious. And it got so ridiculous that Albaqr had to call him out on it; https://www.nairaland.com/4998545/marieh-carey-performed-live-saudi/3#75630940

tru2god: The sahabas never made any mistake bro. Stop covering evil out of religious conviction. Their action was pre-meditated and worthy of condemnation. How can you, without iota of conscience, develop a very strong sense of hatred against the family of your prophet which eventaully resulted into the death of his entire family? And for the records, the actions of Abu Bakr, Umar Ibn Kathab and Uthman ibn Affan (the first three righty guided khalifa) technically eliminated the entire household of the prophet, the event which resulted into the current ideological difference between the shia and the sunnis. Any moral soul should be reasonable in condemnation their 'game of throne' among the muslim ummah.

This history is never taught in any mainstream Muslim school. How can you avoid the mistake of the past when you don't want to learn form history? How can genuine healing be possible without reconciling the mistake of the past and teach the future generation to live in harmony and to avoid the same mistakes again?

Empyree: Don't think one bit that I'm here to entertain you. You being a confused Christian, how does this concern you?. I am well aware of Christian tactics long enough.

Albaqr: Brother, the guy stated facts. Forget about whatever antics he might play. Today, people have access to information than you can ever think. Let's stop denying facts. We will look insincere.

More On Empyree's dark side

After dealing with his opponents like me or tru2god in this section, Empyree would go deal with more opponents like Christians in Religion section. He'd sometimes squabble with them, psychologically manipulate them with taunts and trolls and guilt tripping.

In all my years of engaging Empyree, I never knew him to be good in Qur'an or Hadith or Fiqh. He basically copies and paste fatwas and regurgitate the same lines from Muslim speakers. But I have learnt many Muslim conspiracy and convert stories from him.

He has this phone and computer in his room, with social media or mass media screenshots and YouTube urls on these stories, and he'd upload them and post them unnecessarily, not to inform, but to add firepower to his psychological manipulation.

He is very superstitious, with little knowledge or appreciation of science. So, he often leaves scientifically wrong statements in his bid to defend Islam. I have collected just a few of them here;

Empyree's History of Ignorance

He believes the sun goes somewhere at sunset
He asks; "Before the sun rises everywhere, where is it?"
https://www.nairaland.com/4594366/why-quran-alone-2.0/1#70540224

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He believes menses is a means of eliminating illness from the body.
https://www.nairaland.com/5211738/philosophical-questions-where-did-theism#78806026

These were antiquated beliefs of men before menstruation was fully understood. It is surprising that Empyree continues to bear them, despite the power of the internet.

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He believes God gave the earliest men clothes.

The earliest men didn't get any cloth. If they wanted clothes, raw animal skin, they'd risk their lives in the wilderness hunting for games with very crude and inefficient stick and stone tools. Giving the hardship they'd have to undergo to get such clothes, those cannot be given to them by God as Abrahamic scriptures reveals.

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He believes Nudity causes Immorality

Nudity don't cause immorality, it is how the society choose to perceive nudity that causes immorality. In parts of the Muslim world women with abaya have reported sexual harassment. Even at Hajj, in the sacred masjid, women have reported being intentionally groped by men.

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Indigenous tribes live mostly nude without their society ravaged by debauchery.

Health experts deal with varying degrees of nudity of patient in examination and treatment. If nudity causes immorality, all the years of practice would have corrupted their hearts.

I have a certificate in Basic Life Support. If a woman collapse from cardiac arrest in public, I'm tasked and qualified to resuscitate her. I have to feel her carotid pulse, this requires moving or loosening her headscarf. I'll have to signal for emergency medical team.

I'll have to initiate chest compression, this require putting my hand on her chest between her breast and compressing it. When the team arrives, they'll have to attach defibrillator on her bare chest, this will require unbuttoning or pulling open her shirt or blouse.

If nudity create immorality, then my mind would be really corrupted from assisting this woman, I'll not want to help another woman with cardiac arrest ever again.

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In the Muslim world, women would rather not see a doctor than see a male doctor for examination. Female doctors that refuse to examine male patients have been reported.

In the Muslim world, if a Muslim woman trip in public, it is better for her to fall and hurt her foot than for her headscarf/hijab to slip off. These backward, antiquated and flawed mentality defines Empyree or najib and many other Muslims in Islam section.

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I'll wrap this thread up with one last word; No holy book or religion is bigger than the world. Go out to the real world and enlighten yourself.

user.mane:
Empyree can't understand Qur'an & Human Liberty



No, of course I knew he was against killing Muslims for not doing salat or zakat. But I find it upsetting that you deny killing is the legal penalty in sharia, and you think it is still OK to harrass and drag grown men to salat. I did my best to pinpoint the loopholes in your philosophy long ago on my thread on Human rights.

what are you talking about?. I decided to ignore this thread to show you finish barking. Unfortunately I was banned before when I tried to reply. I just got out of NL jail.

Now i have your time.

Didn't I tell you I think twice that my argument with you was meant to go with your flow?. @bold was my concern earlier. Which legal legal penalty is killing in Sharia and for what sin or crime?

With regards to "dragging grown men to salat", was that not a debate about "hisba" in Saudi where I said it is their country and it is none of your business?. Did I say it is binding on all muslims?. I remembered you asked me if I believe Muslims should be forced or punished if they neglect obligatory duties like salat etc.

Listen, I don't owe you explanation whatsoever because you aren't muslim. I know exactly what I believe. I don't believe in forcing anyone to pray salat, fast Ramadan, perform Hajj etc bcus there are conditions that are personal sometimes that may delay these practices. But I will always go with your flow bcuz you are in a mission. And I will proof to you in my subsequent post(s) that I played you along.


And what I have in my room is none of your business. You don't know me. I will continue to squabble and psychologically manipulate selected audience or targets for specific purpose. So you can talk all you want, buddy.

Also I am just wondering why you didn't read further from the same thread you quoted?. Albaqir later understood why I approached true2god that way after the dude refused to mind his business. Did you care to read albaqr' subsequent comment?. Free me.

user.mane:
Justifying killing zakat defaulters with moral relativism



Do yourself a favor by studying sharia from the classical tafsirs, hadith and fiqh. Reduce listening to modern apologists like Mufti Menk or Nouman Ali Khan, or even Yasir Qadhir. What Abu Bakr did to those who didn't pay zakat is not just the way people in those days are handled for not paying tax. It is the way of sharia.

Sharia is not human ethics that modifies with time. It is perfect, final, divine law immutable at all times.

only Abu Bakr (ra) can ascertain allegations made against him. Unless I decided to argue base on record in our literature, I see no reason to believe in all the essays that Abu Bakr did this or that after Qur'an has already exonerated sahaba. It is unfair to persecute them in their absence. There are amongst the ummah who reject some stories especially if Quran says contrary. Even though Quran doesn't detail stories of sahaba, a verse that exonerated them was enough to eschew irrational criticisms of sahaba. Stories could be written by friends and does. Only Abu Bakr could tell us what really happened. If someone tells stories about someone, there will always be minus and plus to the stories. In the light of this, the Bible says in John 8 vs 17-18



It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true. I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.


Which means only Abu Bakr can confirm the stories not historians bcuz when you read history books you read controversial essays about companions portraying then as good and bad.

I don't even listen to these individuals you mentioned.

userm.ane:
Equating fighting and killing zakat defaulters to arresting and prosecuting tax defaulters



Hmmm...? What is this? So much difference exist between the two. I tackled the differences - What is so WRONG in enforcing Zakat.

If I live under sharia and they come to collect my zakat, I can tell them that I'm not paying to them.
If they insist, I can tell them to "F' off", and that "I'm no longer a Muslim, and don't have to pay zakat". I continue to secretly practice Islam, pay my zakat directly to the poor by myself when ever I'm ready. Nowadays, nobody would border me. Of course, if I lived in the time of Abu Bakr, I'd be sentenced to death.

People become Muslims on their own. They don't owe anyone zakat but God. If the state is concerned about the poor, let the state decree a non-religious tax or reserve some fraction of the annual budget for the poor.

I won't bother with this bcuz you didn't reply my last comment there anyways. My position doesn't change. Zakat are of two types and there are different views as to who gets what. Let me leave this right here. Your response (if any) determines my reply

usermane:
Empyree's insensitivity to his psychological manipulation



No, man. No. He was not pulling my leg. He was being a jerk, wasting my time, and decide to frustrate, intimidate and guilt trip me after I pointed out most Muslims would not approve religious police pestering them for salat. I didn't understand him better then, so I fell for his psychological manipulation, and left posts that I shouldn't have.

Afterwards, I think I apologized & explained I could no longer engage with him on NairaLand again. And I stopped replying or reading his posts for several months. But this man won't leave me. He continued to haunt me on my threads, leaving ignorant or nasty comments, fighting with posters that agree with me.

He would troll and taunt me, call me hypocrite or ex-Muslim for identifying as a Muslim but critiquing Qur'an verses. And he'd remind me how much I owed him for his posting on my thread because no one else posts on my threads. All these behaviors are similar to those seen in personality disorders I've mentioned above.

say what you want. The moment I sensed the way you talked 5yrs ago I realized you are on a mission. That mission manifested in 2019 and everyone seen what I already seen half a decade ago. I have received private messages elsewhere telling me I was right you are on a mission. Hence my reason for attitude you called "personality disorder". You think people are fools?. I wish I could screenshot their texts here. Your mission is clear now. I have also achieved my "mission" to victimize and exposed you. My efforts came to fruition 5yrs later. You aren't muslim. Period.

Now, to proof that I have been pulling your legs all along for years, let me cite just one example. Remember our debate on "sun prostrates beneath the Throne" narrated by Abu Darr?..

I have said one time on this platform somewhere 2yrs ago that when sunset (somewhere) it rises (elsewhere). It was a question posed by church to Abu yazid Bistami(ra) "where is Sun when it set?".

So I decided to frustrate you so you could further expose who you are. I already had foreknowledge. To proof to you my position and to let you know that I was always aware of the Hadith yrs back, remember we had debated last yr on the issue and you recorded exactly what I said.

Now look at the screenshot I posted in my thread. It was dated 2016 which means I was aware of the Hadith prior to debating you. So I pulled your leg. Read what Sheikh Adam Andullah Al-ilory said. Why do you think I didn't know what I was doing?. I pulled your leg, buddy.