₦airaland Forum

Budaatum

Yes I am saying it NOW that non-muslims will be condemned by God and it makes a perfect sense to say so.

budaatum:
Actually, doesn't he sound like you Max with your only JWs are going to heaven?

Heaven

Who told you that?

Well, it's like you never understood all our discussion at all from the start to finish.

Jehovah's Witnesses aren't thinking of going to live in heaven Ma, 99.9% of Jehovah's Witnesses globally have the hope of living forever in Paradise on earth when all evildoers are no more! Psalms 37:7-11, Proverbs 2:20-22, Isaiah 35:6,65:21-23, Matthew 5:5

It's the misinformed Churchgoers that are thinking of going to live in heaven without knowing what exactly is happening there, as for Jehovah's Witnesses we know that humans weren't created for heavenly life, God made the heaven for himself and his spirit sons! Psalms 115:16

Abdulgaffar22:
Maximus69

You cannot continue to be saying that a logical analysis is wrong without pointing specifically to what is actually wrong in that analysis. If something is false, there is no way it can agree with true premises that follow each other deductively.
So for the sake of God which of the three premises in my original post is not true ? Please kindly state with reason(s).

You can continue changing your so called SIMPLE logic to wisdom even foolishness, know that you've seen the only logic that works.
I was born and bread as a Muhammadan but after reasoning deeply on the ways and manners of adherents, i realized that it's not the true religion.
My people won't leave the religion because of shame, they're feeling it's a taboo after so many years and this is the fourth generation.
As for me, i stand for reality not what families put in people's head. If Islam is the true religion, let all the Muslims on earth solve the unending racial tension between Iraq and Iran, then i will believe that the common greeting initiated by Saudi Arabians 'SALAM' is real and not just hypocrisy!

Maximus69

But how could you have judged the truthfulness or falsehood of one faith simply by bad behavior of some of its adherents ? If I am judging
the entire Christianity base on how some pastors are impregnating their female followers, would you agree with me ?

Despite the fact that I implored you for the sake of God to pinpoint what is actually wrong with my premises, you still refuse to do so. Yet if something is false, there is no way it can agree with true premises that follow each other deductively. Can it ?

Well let me turn the table round to the only logic you believe it works. Please set it out in form of premises of argument so that everyone can see its workability.

Abdulgaffar22:
Maximus69

But how could you have judged the truthfulness or falsehood of one faith simply by bad behavior of some of its adherents ? If I am judging
the entire Christianity base on how some pastors are impregnating their female followers, would you agree with me ?

Despite the fact that I implored you for the sake of God to pinpoint what is actually wrong with my premises, you still refuse to do so. Yet if something is false, there is no way it can agree with true premises that follow each other deductively. Can it ?

Well let me turn the table round to the only logic you believe it works. Please set it out in form of premises of argument so that everyone can see its workability.

You are wrong in your premises.

God is the Creator of the animals but did not name them. He gave that assignment to Adam / Man :

Genesis 2:19-20 KJV
And out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.
[20] And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.

You better leave Islam b4 it gets too late for you.

You have been told the truth many times b4 , but you love lies and darkness more than thruth and light.

Enilove

I have already determined not to have any dialogue with you. But at this point in time, I must let you know how you get it wrong.
If you have read my REPLY to the first OBJECTION in my original post, you would not have brought up your point.


It was still God that taught Adam those names just like God inspired our names in the minds of our parents or guardians

And He taught Adam all the names (of everything), then He showed them to the angels and said, "Tell Me the names of these if you are truthful." ( Qur'an 2:31)

God cannot start mentioning our names or the names of all his creatures in a divine book. It would not make sense especially when we consider the number of different languages possessed by human being This is the reason why God inspired Adam and his children on this aspect of naming.

But in case of only one faith that came from God, it makes a perfect sense for God to name his own religion by Himself in his divine book. This is because the author of anything is the right and appropriate person to give a name to that thing.

But if you think I am wrong, see below another irrefutable analysis for you and your friend.

Maximus69 and Enilove


Here is another logical analysis to recognized the only true faith approved by God for humanity


Premise 1: Any true faith from God designed for humanity must have been in existence from the beginning of creation of the first human being.



Premise 2: Any true faith from God designed for humanity must be within the reach of every human being irrespective of the place and time of his (her) existence.



Premise 3: Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism, Confucianism, Taoism, Sikhism, Jainism (etc ) GOT THEIR NAMES from the names (or locality) of their founders. Since their founders are not the first set of human being on earth, all these religions could not have been in existence from beginning. Therefore, they all FAILED to conform with Premise 1. Again, all these religions (or faiths) are not within the reach of every human being. Therefore, they also FAILED to conform with Premise 2.



Therefore, we are left with Christianity and Islam.



Before you can become a sincere Christian, you must believe in ATONING WORK OF JESUS ON THE CROSS for your salvation.
Furthermore, according to Christianity, Jesus is the ONLY TRUE WAY to reach God( John14:6). But many generations of human being have lived and died BEFORE the arrival of Jesus and BEFORE his death on the cross.
Hence, most of the PAST generations of human being are not opportuned to hear about Jesus and his atoning work on the cross; let alone believing in him as their Savior.

Therefore, Christianity also FAILED to conform with Premise 1 and Premise 2 because it was not started at the beginning and it is not within the reach of every human being.



But what about Islam ? Islam simply means "Submission to the will of God at any point in time (see Qur'an 2:112).

Those who submit in this manner are called Muslims.

If the past generations of human being;
1. Believe in the the existence of one God (which God has made known to every intelligent human being) and
2. Engage in righteous acts and forsake the sinful acts ( which God has also made known to all human being through their conscience), then they have already become Muslims (submitters to the will of God) even if they NEVER heard about any special revelation from God.


It is not written in the Qur'an that believing in Muhammad is the ONLY way as it is written in the Bible that Jesus is the ONLY way to reach God (John 14:6). So it is possible for the past generations of human being to become Muslims ( like Abraham, Moses etc) WITHOUT believing in Qur'an since it was yet to be revealed .

Believing in Qur'an is ONLY a condition for the present human beings to become Muslims since it has now been revealed.

So being a Muslim just depend on submitting to the will of God base on what God has revealed at any particular point in time.


Hence, Islam is not the religion of the Qur'an alone, nor is the name of a faith started by prophet Muhammad. Rather, ISLAM (i:e submission to God's will) is the NAME of the faith ever brought by all the true prophets of God. Therefore, Islam conform with Premise 1 and Premise 2.

This is the reason why Qur'an 3:19 declare as follows;

"Verily the only religion in the sight of God is Islam"

Do you think it is just a COINCIDENCE for Qur'an to contain this very verse while all other religious scriptures do not contain the names of their religion talk less of saying their religions are from God ?



Now state with reason which of the three premises is not true ?

Abdulgaffar22:
Maximus69

But how could you have judged the truthfulness or falsehood of one faith simply by bad behavior of some of its adherents ? If I am judging
the entire Christianity base on how some pastors are impregnating their female followers, would you agree with me ?

Despite the fact that I implored you for the sake of God to pinpoint what is actually wrong with my premises, you still refuse to do so. Yet if something is false, there is no way it can agree with true premises that follow each other deductively. Can it ?

Well let me turn the table round to the only logic you believe it works. Please set it out in form of premises of argument so that everyone can see its workability.

I have presented the only logic for you but you ran away with the excuse that Enilove's interference in your thread irritates you.
I don't want to believe you're a liar because the same profile name is here now and you're not running away as you said before.
Well i'll table the logic once again so that everyone even atheists can see how futile their ideology becomes in the face of the SIMPLE LOGIC!

¤THEORIES
¤PRACTICAL APPLICATIONS
¤BENEFITS

Every presentation is like a religion because you expect people as in intellectuals to reason along with you and buy the idea.
If you turn it around again it's will come back to the same point. Every religion is like a presentation since you expect intelligent people to reason along with you and buy your idea.
Your religion must have Theories (stories and rules).

It must have Practical Applications (how to go about it)

And Benefits (gains others can't have presently)

Every religion have their stories bla bla bla, they all go about doing something, but ONLY the true religion from God can possess the benefits that all others can never dream of, all of them will either tell you
*'your gain is in the sky(heaven)'~Churchgoers and Muslims or
*'just live and forget their is nothing after that'~Atheists

The true religion from God will tell you what to expect RIGHT NOW that other religionists can't see!

Maximus69

Before you tagged me a liar, please read the first part of the post I used to reply Enilove.

So all what you have to authenticate your version of Christianity is this;

" The true religion from God will tell you what to expect RIGHT NOW that other religionists can't see! "

So which gains do you have now that others cannot have presently ?

Well let it be known to you that benefit of praticing true Islam is not only in the hereafter. You can also enjoy it INDIVIDUALLY in this world. God says as follows:

Now surely the friends of Allah-- they shall have no fear nor shall they grieve. Those who believe and guarded against evil. They shall have glad tidings(i:e happiness) in this world's life and in the hereafter; there is no changing the words of Allah; that is the mighty achievement (Qur'an 10:62-64).

Whoever does good whether male or female and he is a believer, We will most certainly make him live a happy life, and We will most certainly give them their reward for the best of what they did.
(Qur'an 16:97).


I have already given you one assignment up there: You and your colleague. If you are to able to falsify my premises, I promise you one KUDOS.

Abdulgaffar22:
Maximus69 and Enilove


Here is another logical analysis to recognized the only true faith approved by God for humanity


Premise 1: Any true faith from God designed for humanity must have been in existence from the beginning of creation of the first human being.



Premise 2: Any true faith from God designed for humanity must be within the reach of every human being irrespective of the place and time of his (her) existence.



Premise 3: Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism, Confucianism, Taoism, Sikhism, Jainism (etc ) GOT THEIR NAMES from the names (or locality) of their founders. Since their founders are not the first set of human being on earth, all these religions could not have been in existence from beginning. Therefore, they all FAILED to conform with Premise 1. Again, all these religions (or faiths) are not within the reach of every human being. Therefore, they also FAILED to conform with Premise 2.



Therefore, we are left with Christianity and Islam.



Before you can become a sincere Christian, you must believe in ATONING WORK OF JESUS ON THE CROSS for your salvation.
Furthermore, according to Christianity, Jesus is the ONLY TRUE WAY to reach God( John14:6). But many generations of human being have lived and died BEFORE the arrival of Jesus and BEFORE his death on the cross.
Hence, most of the PAST generations of human being are not opportuned to hear about Jesus and his atoning work on the cross; let alone believing in him as their Savior.

Therefore, Christianity also FAILED to conform with Premise 1 and Premise 2 because it was not started at the beginning and it is not within the reach of every human being.



But what about Islam ? Islam simply means "Submission to the will of God at any point in time (see Qur'an 2:112).

Those who submit in this manner are called Muslims.

If the past generations of human being;
1. Believe in the the existence of one God (which God has made known to every intelligent human being) and
2. Engage in righteous acts and forsake the sinful acts ( which God has also made known to all human being through their conscience), then they have already become Muslims (submitters to the will of God) even if they NEVER heard about any special revelation from God.


It is not written in the Qur'an that believing in Muhammad is the ONLY way as it is written in the Bible that Jesus is the ONLY way to reach God (John 14:6). So it is possible for the past generations of human being to become Muslims ( like Abraham, Moses etc) WITHOUT believing in Qur'an since it was yet to be revealed .

Believing in Qur'an is ONLY a condition for the present human beings to become Muslims since it has now been revealed.

So being a Muslim just depend on submitting to the will of God base on what God has revealed at any particular point in time.


Hence, Islam is not the religion of the Qur'an alone, nor is the name of a faith started by prophet Muhammad. Rather, ISLAM (i:e submission to God's will) is the NAME of the faith ever brought by all the true prophets of God. Therefore, Islam conform with Premise 1 and Premise 2.

This is the reason why Qur'an 3:19 declare as follows;

"Verily the only religion in the sight of God is Islam"

Do you think it is just a COINCIDENCE for Qur'an to contain this very verse while all other religious scriptures do not contain the names of their religion talk less of saying their religions are from God ?



Now state with reason which of the three premises is not true ?

If people that lived b4 Muhammad were Muslims , what then is the essence of the coming of Muhammad since those people could attain the works of salvation by their mere submission to God?

Abdulgaffar22:
Maximus69

Before you tagged me a liar, please read the first part of the post I used to reply Enilove.

So all what you have to authenticate your version of Christianity is this;

" The true religion from God will tell you what to expect RIGHT NOW that other religionists can't see! "

So which gains do you have now that others cannot have presently ?

Well let it be known to you that benefit of praticing true Islam is not only in the hereafter. You can also enjoy it INDIVIDUALLY in this world. God says as follows:

Now surely the friends of Allah-- they shall have no fear nor shall they grieve. Those who believe and guarded against evil. They shall have glad tidings(i:e happiness) in this world's life and in the hereafter; there is no changing the words of Allah; that is the mighty achievement (Qur'an 10:62-64).

Whoever does good whether male or female and he is a believer, We will most certainly make him live a happy life, and We will most certainly give them their reward for the best of what they did.
(Qur'an 16:97).
So Islam pass your

I have already given you one assignment up there: You and your colleague. If you are to able to falsify my premises, I promise you one KUDOS.

Just one single thing Sir!

The book you're quoting can say anything that's not real, and mine also can say things that's disputable so instead of quoting books that anyone can just throw into the dustbin or burn it up. Why not say something that everyone can SEE?

Anywhere i travel to around the world today, i'm in my home COMFORTABLY as long as my brothers and sisters in faith are in that place!
If Nigeria and Algeria are at war today, i'll be safer in the hands of my brothers and sisters in faith who are Algerians by birth than in the hands of Nigerians who are not of my faith!

You and i know that such is impossible in your religion because racism and politics has greater influence on your people than the faith itself!
Muhammad emphasised much on the love of brotherhood in Islam but when it's come face to face with Racism and Politics, the love you have for the words of the so called holy prophet of Allah is thrown into the trash!


That's just one of the benefits that no other religion on earth have apart from my own religion!

Maximus69

Honestly, the way you judge things looks very ridiculous. How many JWs and how many Muslims we have presently in the world ? You are comparing millions with billions. Again, your own version of Christianity is not older than 200 years while Islam brought by Muhammad has been in existence for more than 1400 years. Don't you know that things tend to deteriorate as time pass by ? Don't you know that it is easier for small set of people to coordinate themselves than large set of people ? How are you sure that the brotherhood you laid emphasis on has not once existed in the history of Islam ? How are you sure thathat this brotherhood you are talking about is not existing among some few group of Muslims like Tabligh brothers whose their headquarter is in Pakistan just like you have your headquarter in America ? Please which area are you living since you claimed that you have never seen Tabligh brothers who used to travel from village to village for dawah(preaching). I find it very difficult to believe that you were once a Muslim. Because every Muslim know about Tabligh brothers.


I am still waiting for the reply of your assignment

Enilove


God knew very well that Satan will incite some people to establish all other false religions which would cause people to DEVIATE from original Islam (believing in oneness of God and submitting to the will of God at any particular point in time). For example, Hindus believe in many gods, Buddhists believe that there is no need to believe in any God or gods. Christians believe that God is three in one or one in three. Atheists believe that there is no God. Therefore, there is need for God to correct all these false teachings invented by Satan. This is one of the reasons God sent the Holy Qur'an through His last prophet to bring the humanity back to the original track. So prophet Muhammad is not a founder of Islam but a REVIVER of Islam.

Abdulgaffar22:
Enilove


God knew very well that Satan will incite some people to establish all other false religions which would cause people to DEVIATE from original Islam (believing in oneness of God and submitting to the will of God at any particular point in time). For example, Hindus believe in many gods, Buddhists believe that there is no need to believe in any God or gods. Christians believe that God is three in one or one in three. Atheists believe that there is no God. Therefore, there is need for God to correct all these false teachings invented by Satan. This is one of the reasons God sent the Holy Qur'an through His last prophet to bring the humanity back to the original track. So prophet Muhammad is not a founder of Islam but a REVIVER of Islam.

You are not sincere with yourself .
Did you not include in your premises or conditions that a true religion should come first to incorporate all mankind?
If the people are always going astray and there is need for God to bring in a last prophet to get them back to track , what makes you to think the people with not again backslide the way their forefathers did ?
Has inequities and sins not abound now and far greater than the time of Noah ?
What is so special about the Quran that Moses would not be able to deliver ?

To know the truth , you must study the Quran on your own , there and then , you will know the truth.

For example , the Quran says Moses was the first Muslim :


Allah SWT said:

وَلَمَّا جَآءَ مُوسٰى لِمِيقٰتِنَا وَكَلَّمَهُۥ رَبُّهُۥ قَالَ رَبِّ أَرِنِىٓ أَنْظُرْ إِلَيْكَ ۚ قَالَ لَنْ تَرٰىنِى وَلٰكِنِ انْظُرْ إِلَى الْجَبَلِ فَإِنِ اسْتَقَرَّ مَكَانَهُۥ فَسَوْفَ تَرٰىنِى ۚ فَلَمَّا تَجَلّٰى رَبُّهُۥ لِلْجَبَلِ جَعَلَهُۥ دَكًّا وَخَرَّ مُوسٰى صَعِقًا ۚ فَلَمَّآ أَفَاقَ قَالَ سُبْحٰنَكَ تُبْتُ إِلَيْكَ وَأَنَا۠ أَوَّلُ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ
"And when Moses arrived at Our appointed time and his Lord spoke to him, he said, My Lord, show me [Yourself] that I may look at You. [Allah] said, You will not see Me, but look at the mountain; if it should remain in place, then you will see Me. But when his Lord appeared to the mountain, He rendered it level, and Moses fell unconscious. And when he awoke, he said, Exalted are You! I have repented to You, and I am the first of the believers."
(QS. Al-A'raaf 7: Verse 143)

Why did God not tell him to build mosques , perform ablutions , tawaf the kabaah , stone the devil , kiss the black etc.

The truth is that Islam is nothing but idolatry.
It was conceived in idolatry . All the rituals of the idol worshippers are performed by the Muslims nowadays.

The pagans used to walk 7 times round the kabaah .They used to kiss and worship the black stone which is the meteorite they said fell from heaven.
They used to run between Safa and marwa hills etc.

Why these ?

You need prayers for your spiritual eyes to be opened.

Enilove


Our forefathers tend to deviate from original Islam because they were yet to have a permanent reminder(Qur'an). Now that we have gotten a permanent reminder, the level of Idolatry has reduced compare to former times.

Yes, there is nothing special in Qur'an that Moses could not have delivered. But remember that Moses was never sent to the entire world.

During the time of Moses, there are also CEREMONIAL mode of worshing God which may look idolatry to people of nowadays; especially all the ritual acts involved in atonement sacrifice . Read what is written below; Leviticus 16:1-34

Now the Lord spoke to Moses after the death of the two sons of Aaron, when they offered profane fire before the Lord, and died; 2 and the Lord said to Moses: “Tell Aaron your brother not to come at just any time into the Holy Place inside the veil, before the mercy seat which is on the ark, lest he die; for I will appear in the cloud above the mercy seat.
3 “Thus Aaron shall come into the Holy Place: with the blood of a young bull as a sin offering, and of a ram as a burnt offering. 4 He shall put the holy linen tunic and the linen trousers on his body; he shall be girded with a linen sash, and with the linen turban he shall be attired. These are HOLY GARMENTS. Therefore he shall wash his body in water, and put them on. 5 And he shall take from the congregation of the children of Israel two kids of the goats as a sin offering, and one ram as a burnt offering.
6 “Aaron shall offer the bull as a sin offering, which is for himself, and make atonement for himself and for his house. 7 He shall take the two goats and present them before the Lord at the doors of tabernacle of meeting. 8 Then Aaron shall CAST LOTS for the two goats: one lot for the Lord and the other lot for the scapegoat. 9 And Aaron shall bring the goat on which the Lord’s lot fell, and offer it as a sin offering. 10 But the goat on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat shall be presented alive before the Lord, to make atonement upon it, and to let it go as the SCAPEGOAT into the wilderness.
11 “And Aaron shall bring the bull of the sin offering, which is for himself, and make atonement for himself and for his house, and shall kill the bull as the sin offering which is for himself. 12 Then he shall take a censer full of BURNING COAL OF FIRE from the altar before the Lord, with his hands full of sweet incense beaten fine, and bring it inside the veil. 13 And he shall put the incense on the fire before the Lord, that the cloud of incense may cover the mercy seat that is on the Testimony, lest he die. 14 He shall take some of the blood of the bull and SPRINKLE it with his finger on the mercy seat on the east side; and before the mercy seat he shall sprinkle some of the blood with his finger SEVEN TIMES 15 “Then he shall kill the goat of the sin offering, which is for the people, bring its blood inside the veil, do with that blood as he did with the blood of the bull, and sprinkle it on the mercy seat and before the mercy seat. 16 So he shall make atonement for the Holy Place, because of the uncleanness of the children of Israel, and because of their transgressions, for all their sins; and so he shall do for the tabernacle of meeting which remains among them in the midst of their uncleanness. 17 There shall be no man in the tabernacle of meeting when he goes in to make atonement in the Holy Place, until he comes out, that he may make atonement for himself, for his household, and for all the assembly of Israel. 18 And he shall go out to the altar that is before the Lord, and make atonement for it, and shall take some of the blood of the bull and some of the blood of the goat, and put it on the horns of the altar all around. 19 Then he shall sprinkle some of the blood on it with his finger SEVEN TIMES cleanse it, and consecrate it from the uncleanness of the children of Israel.
20 “And when he has made an end of atoning for the Holy Place, the tabernacle of meeting, and the altar, he shall bring the live goat. 21 Aaron shall lay both his hands on the head of the live goat, confess over it all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions, concerning all their sins, putting them on the head of the goat, and shall send it away into the wilderness by the hand of a suitable man. 22 The goat shall bear on itself all their iniquities to an uninhabited land; and he shall release the goat in the wilderness.
23 “Then Aaron shall come into the tabernacle of meeting, shall take off the linen garments which he put on when he went into the Holy Place, and shall leave them there. 24 And he shall wash his body with water in a holy place, put on his garments, come out and offer his burnt offering and the burnt offering of the people, and make atonement for himself and for the people. 25 The FAT of the sin offering he shall burn on the altar. 26 And he who released the goat as the scapegoat shall wash his clothes and bathe his body in water, and afterward he may come into the camp. 27 The bull for the sin offering and the goat for the sin offering, whose blood was brought in to make atonement in the Holy Place, shall be carried outside the camp. And they shall burn in the fire their skins, their flesh, and their offal. 28 Then he who burns them shall wash his clothes and bathe his body in water, and afterward he may come into the camp.

29 “This shall be a statute forever for you: In the seventh month, on the tenth day of the month, you shall afflict your souls, and do no work at all, whether a native of your own country or a stranger who dwells among you. 30 For on that day the priest shall make atonement for you, to cleanse you, that you may be clean from all your sins before the Lord. 31 It is a sabbath of solemn rest for you, and you shall afflict your souls. It is a statute forever. 32 And the priest, who is anointed and consecrated to minister as priest in his father’s place, shall make atonement, and put on the linen clothes, the holy garments; 33 then he shall make atonement for the Holy Sanctuary,[a] and he shall make atonement for the tabernacle of meeting and for the altar, and he shall make atonement for the priests and for all the people of the assembly. 34 This shall be an everlasting statute for you, to make atonement for the children of Israel, for all their sins, once a year.” And he did as the Lord commanded Moses.

WHY WEARING OF HOLY GARMENTS?

WHY SPRINKLING OF THE BLOOD WITH FINGERS SEVEN TIMES ?

WHY CASTING LOTS FOR THE TWO GOATS?

WHY BRINGING THE CENCER FULL OF BURNING COAL OF FIRE INTO THE VEIL ?

WHY BURNING THE FAT ON THE ALTER ?

WHY SENDING SCAPEGOAT INTO THE WILDERNESS ? etc

Do all these not look idolatry ?




If you believe that Islam is nothing but idolatry, now explain to us how Christianity conform with premises 1 and 2 in my analysis.

Op , the sacrifices in the book of Leviticus were done according to the dictates of God for God.

These people ( Israelites ) were never called idol worshippers . Whether one believes their God or not is a personal opinion. But what is certain which makes me to believe the God of the Israelites is His show of power by DIVIDING THE RED SEA. This was not done by God for the Arabs but for the Israelites. All the miracles done in Egypt by God for the Israelites could only be done by God .
Whatever the prophet through whom God did these miracles says should be followed . That is why the Israelites never doubted Moses.

But as for the Arabs , the hadith's confirm to it that the idol worshippers used to tawaf the kabaah and used to worship the black stone which is placed in the wall of the kabaah till today.
It is only idol worshippers that worshiped the moon and stars. Islam has embraced this too.


God did not create any religion . It was man that created religion when they lost their fellowship with God in the garden of Eden.
When man lost that relationship , the first religion man got engaged into was WITHCRAFTS .
So , the first and oldest religion is witchcrafts. That was why God had to destroy that generation.

The reason why we have Judaism and those blood sacrifices is to prepare mankind for the coming of the Messiah in order to reconcile man with God.
And since the life is in the blood , there is need for blood sacrifice pending the coming the blood sacrifice which cannot be traced to the blood of Adam ( cursed ).

Now that Jesus has shed his blood for our sin by reconciling us back to God , anyone who fails to accept that sacrifice is doomed for eternity.

Matthew 26:28-29 KJV
For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
[29] But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.

Colossians 1:19-22 KJV
For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
20] And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say , whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
[21] And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
[22] In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:


I was a Muslim , so I can tell you the great differences between the two religion is life and death.

Why don't you just forget about which religion is right or wrong and call on God your Creator to reveal Himself to you.

Enilove


You refused to explain how Christianity conform with my premises.

If you believed that God can establish all those CEREMONIAL mode of worship for the followers of Moses why do you think it is idolatry for such mode of worship to be established for followers of Muhammad ? God has promised to send a prophet LIKE MOSES in Deuteronomy 18:18. So such ceremonial mode of worship in the message brought by Muhammad should not be strange to us.

Abdulgaffar22:
Enilove


You refused to explain how Christianity conform with my premises.

If you believed that God can establish all those CEREMONIAL mode of worship for the followers of Moses why do you think it is idolatry for such mode of worship to be established for followers of Muhammad ? God has promised to send a prophet LIKE MOSES in Deuteronomy 18:18. So such ceremonial mode of worship in the message brought by Muhammad should not be strange to us.

I have a simple question for you, can a stone forgive sin?
Yes or No, just a short answer at worst.

Paabakp

Explain first how Christianity conform with my premises 1and 2 above in my analysis

Abdulgaffar22:
Enilove


You refused to explain how Christianity conform with my premises.

If you believed that God can establish all those CEREMONIAL mode of worship for the followers of Moses why do you think it is idolatry for such mode of worship to be established for followers of Muhammad ? God has promised to send a prophet LIKE MOSES in Deuteronomy 18:18. So such ceremonial mode of worship in the message brought by Muhammad should not be strange to us.

Are those premises God's or yours ?

You cannot set a wrong question and expect a right answer. First get spiritual understanding and not what you perceive to be right :

Proverbs 3:5-6 KJV
Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
[6] In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

It is a dangerous and disastrous journey if you don't allow God to lead you because :

Proverbs 16:25 KJV
There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

Can you please answer the question @Paabakp asked you ?

Abdulgaffar22, my own dispute with you was your sin of [url=https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+18%3A9-14&version=NLT]hubris[/url]. Is it not written that Among His signs is the creation of the heavens and the earth and the diversity of your languages and your colors. Verily, in that are signs for people of knowledge. Surat al-Rum 30:22

And yet here you are professing to worship Allah and yet joining in doing that which Allah abhors! Or did you think you would not be known by thy fruits? How can you say to another, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye?

Verily, the greatest liar among people is a man who insults another man by disparaging their entire tribe (or religion, or race etc).
Sunan Ibn Mājah 3761

You might want to consider the following:

Islam is against racism and prejudice!

Abdulgaffar22:
A VERY SIMPLE WISDOM TO RECOGNIZE THE ONLY TRUE FAITH APPROVED BY GOD.


If you do NOT believe in God OR you do NOT believe in any faith (or spiritual path), please kindly leave this thread because what is written below is NOT meant for you.


However, if you really BELIEVE in God and you really BELIEVE that there is only one faith (or spiritual path) that is approved by this God, then take your time and carefully follow the LOGICAL ANALYSIS explained below . It is a very simple and direct analysis. But if you think the analysis is wrong, please kindly state with reason(s) which of the THREE LOGICAL PREMISES explained below is not true.


Before you continue, please do not forget that we have already accepted TWO FACTS;
1 God really exist
2. There is only one faith (or spiritual path) approved by this God.

You can now proceed to read the premises cited below ;

# PREMISE 1. The original author of a book is the right and appropriate person to give a NAME to that book. The original author of a movie is the right and appropriate person to give a NAME or TITLE to that movie. Again, the original author or the maker of a car is the right and appropriate person to give a NAME to that car. Furthermore, the original author or founder of a school is the right and appropriate person to give a NAME to that school. Also, the original author or founder of a company is the right and appropriate person to give a NAME to that company. Therefore, using the same analogy, the ORIGINAL AUTHOR OR FOUNDER of a faith (or any spiritual path) is the right and appropriate person to give a NAME to that faith ( or spiritual path).



# PREMISE 2. Therefore, if God is really the ORIGINAL AUTHOR/ FOUNDER of any faith (or spiritual path) that has a SCRIPTURE, then as we have established above from Premise 1, giving a NAME to such a faith (or spiritual path) by God Himself in that very SCRIPTURE is exactly what we are EXPECTING


OBJECTION ; According to Premise 1, the right and appropriate person to give a NAME to everyone of us is God our creator. But our NAMES were either given by our parents or guardians. Therefore, in a much similar sense, the NAME of a faith that was authored or founded by God can also be given by the FIRST SET OF PEOPLE that believe in that faith. Hence, Premise 2 seems to be wrong.


REPLY; Yes, being our Creator, God is the right and appropriate person to give us our NAMES in accordance with Premise 1. But since God has chosen not to speak to us directly, there is no way for God to announce our NAMES to the world. Therefore, God has to put our NAMES in the minds of our parents or guardians. Hence, indirectly, it was still God (our Creator ) that give us NAMES .
But in case of faith (or spiritual path) that was authored or founded by God, there is a way for God Himself to announce its NAME directly to the world. That is, by way of revelation in the Holy scriptures. Therefore there is NOTHING wrong with premise 2.



# PREMISE 3 However, with the exception of ONLY ONE FAITH, the NAMES of all the major faiths (or spiritual paths) in the world are NO WHERE to be found in their scriptures.


Simply put, the word "HINDUISM" is no where to be found in the scriptures (i:e Vedas and Upanishads) used by the Hindus.

Again, the word "BUDDHISM" is no where to be found in the scriptures (i:e the Sutras) used by the Buddhists.

Furthermore, the word "CHRISTIANITY" is no where to be found in the scriptures (i:e the Bible) used by the Christians.

Similarly, the word "JUDAISM" is no where to be found in the scriptures (i:e the Torah) used by the Judaists.

Hence, follows from the Premise 2 explained above, this simply shows that God is NOT the original author or founder of all these faiths (or spiritual paths).


The only exception we have is ISLAM.


ISLAM is the ONLY faith on earth that satisfied the EXPECTATION made mention above in the Premise 2 . That is to say, the word "ISLAM" is found on the many pages of the scripture ( i:e the Qur'an) used by the Muslims. For example, Qur'an 5:3 read as follows;

"This day, I (God ) have perfected your faith for you, and I (God) have completed MY favour upon you, and I(God) have chosen for you ISLAM as your faith".



OBJECTION; Yes Islam seems to satisfy the expectation made mention above in the Premise 2. But how are we really sure that it was actually God (and not an impostor ) that really SPOKE this very verse of Qur'an ?


REPLY; Remember that we have already accepted two facts; God really exist and there is ONLY ONE FAITH approved by this God. So our aim is to know the only true faith approved by God (i:e the only faith that SATISFY THE EXPECTATION made mention in Premise 2).
Since Islam has satisfied this very EXPECTATION (because a verse of Qur'an contains the word "ISLAM" and the verse SEEMS [ i:e appear outwardly and contextually ] to be coming directly from God's mouth) and all other faiths do not satisfy the same expectation, then we have already achieved our aim. Therefore, whether the speaker in the Qur'an is actually God or not does not concern us.

Knowing the identity of the speaker in the Qur'an ( i:e knowing whether Qur'an is really the word of God or not) is another topic on its own which is quite different from the topic we are treating in this analysis. If the topic we are treating in this analysis is "knowing whether Qur'an is really the word of God or not", then the atheists would not be asked to leave the thread at the beginning.
So the analysis is not actually meant to prove that Qur'an is the word of God.The analysis is only meant to show that if God really exist and there is only one faith approved by this God, then this faith could not have been any other faith except ISLAM. Hope it is clear !


If the NAME of the faith embraced by the Muslims is not Islam but "muhammedanism" (which is analogous to Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism and others), then the faith of the Muslims would not be qualified again to be the only true faith approved by God. This is because the word "Muhammedanism" is no where to be found in the Qur'an.

But God Almighty Himself has carefully coined the word "ISLAM" so that Islam would continue to remain as the NAME of only faith that ever came from God.

The word "Islam" means ; submission to the will of God (see Qur'an 2:112). Those who submit in this manner are called Muslims (i:e submitters to the will of God).

Therefore, logically speaking, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Isaac, Jacob and the likes can be called Muslims (i:e submitters to the will of God) without any problem. Hence, we can say conveniently that they practice Islam (i:e they submit to the will of one true God).


Hence, Islam is not the religion of the Qur'an alone, nor is the name of a faith started by prophet Muhammad. Rather, ISLAM (i:e submission to God's will) is the NAME of the faith ever brought by all the true prophets of God. However, the ceremonial content of this ISLAM may differ slightly from one prophet to another just like the syllabus contents of Mathematics differ slightly from one school level to another.

Premise 1
This is wrong because Allah did not give you your name even though he created you.
Premise 2
Wrong because premise 1 is wrong.
My question
Can a stone forgive SINS?
Please give me a very short answer.

Abdulgaffar22:
Maximus69

Honestly, the way you judge things looks very ridiculous. How many JWs and how many Muslims we have presently in the world ? You are comparing millions with billions. Again, your own version of Christianity is not older than 200 years while Islam brought by Muhammad has been in existence for more than 1400 years. Don't you know that things tend to deteriorate as time pass by ? Don't you know that it is easier for small set of people to coordinate themselves than large set of people ? How are you sure that the brotherhood you laid emphasis on has not once existed in the history of Islam ? How are you sure thathat this brotherhood you are talking about is not existing among some few group of Muslims like Tabligh brothers whose their headquarter is in Pakistan just like you have your headquarter in America ? Please which area are you living since you claimed that you have never seen Tabligh brothers who used to travel from village to village for dawah(preaching). I find it very difficult to believe that you were once a Muslim. Because every Muslim know about Tabligh brothers.


I am still waiting for the reply of your assignment

The earth has just 8.5 million Jehovah's Witnesses and i've told you that we're in almost all the countries of the earth!
If you're saying Muslims are billions in number and there's nowhere Muslims have coordinated themselves orderly so that there's no more Racism and Politics in their midst then your Logic, Premises and Wisdom is futile Sir!

I've told you from the start that simple logic will always work whether in a large number or minute number.

Can you prove that 2 times 2 which is equal to 4 will not be so again if it's 200 times 200?

Well my friend, if 200 times 200 = 40,000, there's nothing that can make your theory fail due to large number!

Maximus69:
Jehovah's Witnesses aren't thinking of going to live in heaven Ma, 99.9% of Jehovah's Witnesses globally have the hope of living forever in Paradise on earth when all evildoers are no more! Psalms 37:7-11, Proverbs 2:20-22, Isaiah 35:6,65:21-23, Matthew 5:5

What will happen to the evildoers max?

Maximus69:
It's the misinformed Churchgoers that are thinking of going to live in heaven without knowing what exactly is happening there, as for Jehovah's Witnesses we know that humans weren't created for heavenly life, God made the heaven for himself and his spirit sons! Psalms 115:16

Sounds life tooth fairy and father christmas lol.

Why aren't JWs the salt of the earth?

budaatum:
What will happen to the evildoers max?
Sounds life tooth fairy and father christmas lol.
Why aren't JWs the salt of the earth?

Go as many times as possible for blood transfusion buda, nobody holds you back from saving your life in anyway you deem necessary! 2Thessalonians 3:2

Maximus69:
Go as many times as possible for blood transfusion buda, nobody holds you back from saving your life in anyway you deem necessary! 2Thessalonians 3:2

Its not a pint of Guinness max, and I'm not dying.

budaatum:
What will happen to the evildoers max?


Why aren't JWs the salt of the earth?

budaatum:
Its not a pint of Guinness max, and I'm not dying.

If you've found the SALT, then you don't need to bother about JWs again since you're sure that THEY'RE NOT THE SALT OF THE EARTH!

@Abdulgaffar22

Your logic is so much flawed that I don't even have the courage to start criticizing it.

- your premise 2 is tied to the fact that the true religion has a scripture. Why must the only true religion have a scripture? Have you considered in your universe of possible religions, those that have no holy scriptures?

- your premise 3 is limited among MAJOR religions. MAJOR according to who? In terms of what? Why should the only true religion be among the major ones (in your opinion)?

- your whole argument in a nutshell is that since the word Bible is not contained In the Bible, or Torah in the Tanakh, nor vedas in the vedas, Islam Mut be the only true religion.

Unfortunately the word Bible (ta Biblia = the books) is contained in the Bible (in the corresponding language it was written with) , as well as Torah ( the Law) is mentioned in the Tanakh. You have been deceived by your supremacist delusions.

2 Timothy 4:13 English Standard Version (ESV)

1When you come, bring the cloak that I left with Carpus at Troas, also the books (Ta Biblia) , and above all the parchments.

Leviticus 10:11
11 and you are to teach (ירה = Torah) the people of Israel all the statutes that the Lord has spoken to them through Moses.

@Abdulgaffar22

Maximus69:
If you've found the SALT, then you don't need to bother about JWs again since you're sure that THEY'RE NOT THE SALT OF THE EARTH!

You said JWs weren't the salt of the earth max!

Maximus69:
Jehovah's Witnesses aren't thinking of going to live in heaven Ma, 99.9% of Jehovah's Witnesses globally have the hope of living forever in Paradise on earth when all evildoers are no more! Psalms 37:7-11, Proverbs 2:20-22, Isaiah 35:6,65:21-23, Matthew 5:5

And to be honest, I don't believe you. I'm sure there's quite a lot of JWs out there being salt of the earth as there are Muslims, Pagans, Hindus, Buddhists etc too. Just that when you say the evildoers are no more, I can't help wonder what is going to happen to them. And I can't help think rain don't fall on one person's house either. You might have a big umbrella, I suppose.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OiCbX7lncxc

budaatum:
I'm sure THERE ARE QUITE A LOT OF JWS OUT THERE BEING SALT OF THE EARTH!

You're confusing yourself girl!

You formerly asked 'Why aren't Jehovah's Witnesses salt of the earth?'

Now you're saying this again!

Well i hope you're been watched closely because i can feel something is definitely wrong somewhere!