₦airaland Forum

LordReed:
Because the eye doesn't develop an interdependence with the brain, the nervous system, the skeletal system, the muscular system?

LordReed:
It is you who has the difficulty here when it was clearly stated that there are beneficial mutations. You are sticking with this your fictional view mutation as a thing that is bad that you can't even assimilate something that you are looking at with your own 2 eyes.

This is getting boring.

Abdulgaffar22:
You're yet to understand the meaning of interdependent system
Interdependent systems are the systems that require each other for their existence due to physiological linkage between them. I have already taken my time in the previous post to explain how respiratory system, circulatory system, digestive system etc are interdependent with each other. On cannot just exist without the other being put in place. Can you cite an instance where a simple respiratory system exist without the corresponding circulatory system and the digestive system being put in place ? Of course, there is none. Yet according to theory of gradual evolution over millions of yesrs, these three systems must evolve one after the other; they cannot evolve simultaneously in a single generation.

Abdulgaffar22:
I did not deny the existence of beneficial mutations. But remember that a body of human being or any other animal is not made up of only one system; human body consists of many systems. So if beneficial mutations are opportune to be directed toward the construction of some systems, there must definitely be some harmful mutations which would be directed toward the destruction of other systems elsewhere. Of course, this is expected because the probability of harmful mutations being occurring is far greater than that of beneficial mutations. So I did not deny the existence of beneficial mutations.
Even if beneficial mutations keep on occurring in many of the systems of a body, one harmful mutation in only one of the vital systems of the SAME BODY is enough to cause death and therefore making all those beneficial mutations to be useless.

LordReed:
Flatworms do not have circulatory or respiratory organs but have digestive organs so your "test" does not hold water. Clearly one system can outpace another in developing complexity.

LordReed:
You are misunderstanding what's going on. If any member of a specie acquires harmful mutations what makes you think it will live on to procreate? And even if it does do you think the accumulation of harmful mutations will allow any offspring to prosper? This is one of the premises of natural selection, that natural conditions constrain the survival chances of living things making the fittest have better survival chances. If the organisms with harmful mutations are weeded out by natural selection then those with beneficial mutations go on to survive and multiply.

Abdulgaffar22:
You have confused system with organ.

According to Wikipedia, biological system is a complex network of biologically relevant entities.

For example, circulatory system is a complex network of entities like heart, blood and blood vessels.

Urinary system is a complex network of entities like kidney, ureter, urinary bladder and urethra.

Digestive cavity of a flat worm is an organ; it is not a biological system.

So you flatly got it wrong

Digestive system can never outpace respiratory and circulatory systems in an evolutionary journey because they are interdependent with each other.

LordReed:
This is just a big giant attempt at equivocation. The flatworms have a digestive system with digestive organs but no corresponding circulatory system or organs and no respiratory system or organs. You are equivocating because this clear example demolishes your argument.

I am done with this discussion, its galling when people refuse clear examples because it contradicts their preconceived notions.

Abdulgaffar22:
Of course, human digestive system consists of
organs like buccal cavity, gullet , stomach, liver, pancreas and intestines. If flatworm also have a digestive system with digestive organs, then list the names of these organs.

LordReed:
Check the images I have added.

Abdulgaffar22:
The genitourinary system present in the body of a male human being consists of the following ;
1. a pair of kidney,
2. a pair of ureter,
3. urinary bladder,
4. internal and external sphincter,
5. urethra,
6. vas deferens,
7. ejaculatory duct and
8. semen producing apparatus (testes and the accessory glands).

The pair of kidney (which can be likened to two pumping machines) filter the waste from our blood and send it through a pair of long inlet pipes called ureters into a storage tank (i:e the urinary bladder) which has two taps at its inferior end. These two taps are called the internal and external sphincter. Another long outlet pipe (called the urethra) now runs from the inferior end of the bladder to the tip of the penis. It is through this outlet pipe that the urine exits the body.

Again, there is another pipe called the ejaculatory duct which enable another storage tube (i:e the vas deferens that contains the semen produced in the testes and the accessory glands) to link with the same urethra that carries the urine coming from the urinary bladder.

During the period of ejaculation, one of the two taps ( i:e the internal sphincter) at the inferior end of the urinary bladder is involuntarily closed. Therefore, despite the fact that urine and the semen flow out of the body through the same pipe (the urethra) that runs through the length of the penis, they do not mixed together; the semen cannot flow backward into the urinary bladder . This is because of the first tap (i:e the internal sphincter) which normally close during the time of ejaculation and this act of closure is not under our control.

But the second tap (i:e the external sphincter) which can be open and close under our control enable us to urinate at any time we feel the need to do so.

See the plumbing system installed in the human body:

The pumping machines (the two kidneys), the storage tank (the urinary bladder), the storage tube ( the vas deferens), the two taps ( the internal and external sphincters at the inferior end of the urinary bladder) and the four connecting pipes ( the two ureters, the urethra and the ejaculatory duct).

Yet some people have the mouth to proclaim as follows :
"there is no any sufficient evidence to prove the existence of God and all the interdependent systems in human body were gradually brought into existence by evolutionary process of chance (DNA mutations) accumulated slowly over millions of years"

But just take a look at how the pipe (i:e the ejaculatory duct) conveying the semen linked perfectly with the main outlet pipe ( i:e the urethral) carrying the urine . Yet the semen and the urine do not mixed together because of the two taps ( i:e the internal and the external sphincters) located exactly at the inferior end of the storage tank (i:e the urinary bladder).

How many processes of chance (DNA mutations) do you think would be needed to form those "two pipes ( i:e the ejaculatory duct and the urethral ) and to establish that perfect linkage between them ?

Again, how many processes of chance ( DNA mutations) do you think would be required before the "storage tank (i:e the urinary bladder)" can be made together with its inlet and outlet pipes ( i:e the ureters and the urethra) and before the "two taps( i:e the internal and external sphincter)" can be formed at their functional location ?

If DNA mutations are mostly destructive and rarely beneficial as agreed by all scientists, then if a very few number of beneficial mutations are opportune to be directed toward the construction of this genitourinary system, then very great number of destructive mutations must have directed toward the destruction of one or more of the other interdependent systems ( such as respiratory system cardiovascular system, nervous system, digestive system, etc) that make up a single human body.
This will automatically lead to the death of such a mutating species which is yet to become a full human being.

Therefore, it is completely illogical to believe that genitourinary system and all other complex systems present in a single human body were formed gradually by evolutionary process of chance (DNA mutations) accumulated slowly over millions of years. Co- existence of a very few beneficial mutations and many destructive mutations in a single body will never allow an evolutionary process of chance to perform such a miracle.

If the plumbing systems installed in our buildings cannot be created by gradual process of chance over millions of years but through deliberate planning in the mind of a human plumber, then the plumbing system installed in human body must also have been created by deliberate planning in the mind of a supernatural plumber which many people depicted as God .

Abdulgaffar22:
This is not the issue of the gaps in scientific knowledge being used as evidence for God. It is a matter of logical comparison ; if physical law of nature or process of chance can never be used to explain the existence of a plumbing system installed in a building, then physical law of nature or process of chance can never also be used to explain the existence of a plumbing system installed in a body of human being.

JeromeBlack:
A human being is organic. Very different from an inorganic building

LordReed:
Also you have to be suspicious of an almighty plumber who designed a body with 2 kidneys and one heart. If the almighty plumber was so concerned with redundancy for the purpose of staving off failure of an organ, why don't we get 2 hearts then?

Abdulgaffar22:
Since the offsprings of most animal species developed from the fertilization of the two sex cells ( i:e the sperm cell and the egg cell), then the only way through which a complex animal species can be evolved from simpler ones is by changing of DNA information in the nuclei of the two sex cells

But what can actually causes a DNA information in the nucleus of a cell to change ?

There are only two options ; it is either by a process of chance ( genetic mutations) or by intelligent intervention.

But If you think there is third option through which DNA information can undergo a change, then bring it to light.

Unfortunately, most genetic mutations are harmful rather than beneficial. Therefore, a mutating lower animal species transforming itself into higher one would have meet its destruction by great number of harmful mutations before the very few beneficial ones can be put in place . For this very reason, evolution is impossible.

Therefore, increasing complexity from simple life forms to higher life forms can be best explained by a concept of "common design" rather than "common descent" just like increasing complexity from simple vehicle (like bicycle) to higher vehicles (like aeroplane) is by common design and not by common descent.

Abdulgaffar22:
It is not only heart that is single. Liver, pancrea and spleen are also single. So the absolute reason why God decided to make some organ to be dual and some others to be single is best known to him. But the very fact that all the systems in human body are INTERDEPENDENT with each other prove that they cannot be evolved gradually over millions of years

LordReed:
Immediately below what you quote is this:

Beneficial mutations
Although mutations that cause changes in protein sequences can be harmful to an organism, on occasions the effect may be positive in a given environment. In this case, the mutation may enable the mutant organism to withstand particular environmental stresses better than wild-type organisms, or reproduce more quickly. In these cases a mutation will tend to become more common in a population through natural selection.

Abdulgaffar22:
Interdependent systems are the systems that
are physiologically and anatomically linked together. For example, respiratory system is useless if there is no circulatory system to distribute the oxygenated blood through out the body. But both the circulatory and respiratory system is useless if there is no digestive system which would provide the necessary nutrients and then the required energy to maintain the activities of the two systems. Again these three systems require an excretory system through which the waste produced by their cells will exit the body. But these four systems also require to be controlled by the central nervous system. Again reproductive system must not be absent if all these systems were to continue to exist from generation to generation. But maturation of reproductive system also require the activities of the hormonal system. But what do you think is going to happen if the immune system is absent to protect all these systems from being attack by microbes.
See how one system require the existence of others. Now imagine all these systems to be coming into existence one after the other by gradual evolution over millions of years.

Abdulgaffar22:
If mutations are only OCCASIONALLY positive in a given environment as you quoted above, then this implies that most of the mutations are harmful. Now does a process that is MOSTLY HARMFUL can be responsible for the creation of all the viable systems present in our body and in all living organisms ever existed on earth ?
Wikipedia submits as follows;

"Due to the damaging effects that mutations can have on genes, organisms have mechanisms such as DNA repair to prevent or correct mutations by reverting the mutated sequence back to its original state."

If mutations was really the process through which DNA information can undergo a change to create millions of different species of living organisms, then DNA repair would never be evolved to reverse the effect of mutations.

Abdulgaffar22:
Quote a single statement from me that is wrong about evolution.



Review your statement. It seems to make no sense.
I am enjoying the money I realized from my robbery. I am less concerned about the harm received by the society. So why is robbery not logically good for me ? Why is it bad for me ? Your world view has no answer for this question.
This is exactly the reason why atheism is not a true world view. Of course it does not make any sense if a great robber managed to scot free in this world and yet receives no justice nor feel any regret after death for all the atrocities he perpetrated. Or does it ?

Abdulgaffar22:
h

Abdulgaffar22:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5fOsgrAJiU