₦airaland Forum

CaveAdullam:
Yes. A woman can be a Pastor/Apostle without having authority over men in the church. Her duty in that office is to minister Christ Jesus and His Gospel.

The office of a Pastor, Apostle, Evangelist, Teacher, Prophet is under the authority of an Elder/Bishop/General overseer.

Meanwhile, an Elder/Bishop/General overseer can also play a perfect role in any of the offices above.


If you say so solite3. But what about the question below

Is 1 Corinthians 12:28 and Ephesians 4:11 gender specific? Please don't invade this question this time around. 

1 Corinthians 12:28
KJV:And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

Ephesians 4:11
KJV:And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

God fearing Women were followers of Christ
(John20:1-3,11-18.).
Women were evidently ministers of the gospel. Preaching and teaching knows no gender . Psalms 68:11. Acts5:42. Mark13:10. Matt 24:14. Matt 28:20
However, no woman was named in any position of authority among the apostles or in the early first century Christian congregation.
(Acts 13:1. Acts15:1-3. Acts 21:8. 1 Cor11:3.)

[quote author=solite3 post=85892948][/quote]

I want to ask you, where did paul's teaching came from?
Paul was surrounded by other apostles including Peter,James and John and all of them agreed to his teaching and jos calling so paul's teaching are scriptural if you dont agree with it throw your bible away.

Give up solite3 and stop trying to twist things. I have never doubted any single thing Paul wrote and you know it. It is your understanding of what Paul wrote that's absurd. If you learn my counsel of taking two or three witnesses for every doctrinal position, it will help you evade some of your erroneous teaching from Paul's letters. Even his mention of the 'Eminent' apostle Junia, which you have subtly avoided, should have helped you but no. Your problem is exactly as Peter spoke of concerning Paul's letters
2 Peter 3:16
[16]As also in all his(Paul's) epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood,(e.g. Spiritual manhood and womanhood) which they that are unlearned(you) and unstable twist, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
The deal is are you devoted to the truth and integrity of God's word or your traditions of men (what you've always been told about the word by men). It will be known in what you do when you see that your traditions are faulty. If you are faithful to God's word, you'll let go of your traditions and begin to seek for truth which is indisputable, of the word of God. Ive had to do this again and again, realising that my initial understanding of Gods word may be wrong, will you?. So here is your opportunity, solite3.

Secondly, you said paul was not speaking literally to women, so tell me how did you come about this?

How do you know the Lord Jesus was being figurative when he asked you to gouge out your right eye. He never even bothered to interpret it, so you should have only one eye by now. Also, the answer to your question is in your simple answer to my question. This time dont stoop so low fumbling with the obvious answer, and making everyone here laugh. If you can't show that its a literal woman saved by literal childbirth, no use mentioning me again. Here's the trick question again. Since BlueAngel444 is still patting you on the back, you could also ask him to help you.

I asked you a simple question and you failed woefully in your attempt to answer. How can the woman in 1Tim2:15 be a literal female, when this woman's salvation is through childbirth. What happens to barren or celibate women. What about unbelieving females who also give birth, will they be saved or partake in Christ's work for making babies, not to mention those out of wedlock. You gave a clumsy and comical answer that could pass for nairaland joke of the year- that women, having by nature, controlling tendencies over men(like we men don't. which is also a big lie in many cases of women I've met, who are rather too submissive), will be saved from that when they give birth...my, my. MuttleyLaff could help us with a good meme for that. There isn't even a single dominant woman who became submissive after childbirth. My question was just to help all see that this was a parable of Paul. Or again would you say Paul is delegating prayer to literal men (excluding women) and dresscodes to literal women. So that prayer is now gender specific?

So when paul taught that husband is the head of the wife it was figurative?

Christ is the head of the church as the(spiritual) Man is the head of the (spiritual) Woman, as also the physical man (husband) is the head of the physical woman (wife). It's then up to the context to tell you which Paul spoke of. You can't even see a context for family here. The only context is church administration and the learned in the subject know very well the meanings of the symbolisms here.

When he taught that women should dress moderately it was figurative?

Here in 1Tim2. It is totally figurative. I'm sure you missed it but the modest apparel the woman is to be dressed with is written right there...reverence/submission(shamefacedness) and seriousness....and good works. (1Tim2:9-10). You probably don't know that throughout scripture, our spiritual clothing has to do with character(Rev19:8, 3:2-4 also shows that perfect works parallel unstained garments, as well as all over the OT prophets).

Pls go and sleep

Maybe not sleep, but if that's your best cop-out after failing to recover your thread with a reasonable and doctrinally consitent answer to my trick question, not that shambles you did up there, I'll simply bow out now. My work seems done here.

1StopRudeness:
all these guys u are quoting are rigid and never entertain anyone's opinion... the explanation that women are controling and they will be saved by practical child birth is the must absurd thing I've ever heard from a person who claims he has understanding of God's word..
..there's no point arguing with them... wateva u say is wrong as long as u don't belong to their denomination.. they are the only ones with true application and interpretation of scripture and going to heaven ....its not really their fault anyways ....thats what they are told in their gatherings...

I know. I actually do this for the sake of the unsuspecting readers who could be marginalized by their damnable heresies. @the bolded, as in...at least Solite gave us all a good laugh today, maybe the only good thing he did in this thread. But until any of them can answer my question correctly, it should be obvious to every reader that they are ignorant of Paul's message, so I may actually be done here.

Janosky:
God fearing Women were followers of Christ
(John20:1-3,11-18.).
Women were evidently ministers of the gospel. Preaching and teaching knows no gender . Psalms 68:11. Acts5:42. Mark13:10. Matt 24:14. Matt 28:20
However, no woman was named in any position of authority among the apostles or in the early first century Christian congregation.
(Acts 13:1. Acts15:1-3. Acts 21:8. 1 Cor11:3.)

Oga Janosky you guys have not answered my question o.

Is 1 Corinthians 12:28 and Ephesians 4:11 gender specific? Please don't invade this question this time around. 

1 Corinthians 12:28
KJV:And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

Ephesians 4:11
KJV:And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

This is a simple yes or no question.

Finallydead Paul never wrote that Junia was an apostle.

The way you wrote 2 peter 3:16 is a classical example of how you add and twist God's word to fit your view of things.

U mean this 1Timothy 2:15
Nevertheless [the sentence put upon women of pain in motherhood does not hinder their souls’ salvation, and] they will be saved [eternally] if they continue in faith and love and holiness with self-control, [saved indeed] through the Childbearing or by the birth of the divine Child.

What you didn't think people actually don't read the bible do you

Anyway whether you paint it as women being symbolic or not, God commands women to be submissive to their husbands, their fathers etc.

Just as God commands men to submit to Him.

The figurative statements don't contradict direct commands.

A woman's submissiveness to her husband as a spiritual symbol and message to the world. So are you arguing that women shouldn't submit to their husbands, that women should be Bishops (pastors and teachers) husbands of one wife.

Are you arguing that God who said men should be priests is wrong

or was Jesus being bias when he said there's no sex in heaven

BlueAngel444:
Finallydead Paul never wrote that Junia was an apostle.

No? He actually wrote that she was eminent/spectacular/remarkable/noteworthy among apostles. She was no ordinary apostle but an eminent apostle. If you still don't believe go look up the meaning of that statement from the Greek texts and expositions.

The way you wrote 2 peter 3:16 is a classical example of how you add and twist God's word to fit your view of things.

You should have shown how and what I twisted?

U mean this 1Timothy 2:15
Nevertheless [the sentence put upon women of pain in motherhood does not hinder their souls’ salvation, and] they will be saved [eternally] if they continue in faith and love and holiness with self-control, [saved indeed] through the Childbearing or by the birth of the divine Child.

So if women continue in faith,God will save them through childbirth. Sorry for all those women, Paul advised to be virgin's(celibate) like he, if they can. No salvation for them thanks to Paul. Or even the barren ones. Very soon solite3 will be preaching that barren believing women will remain under Satans captivity except they get a miracle or yhat any woman who like Anna the prophetess devotes herself to the Lord's work in oath of celibacy will have to get married and give birth to be saved from Satan. Now, please let's move on to something else.

What you didn't think people actually don't read the bible do you

I'm not really seeing the basis of your accusations. Come plainly and show me what I'm doing.

Anyway whether you paint it as women being symbolic or not, God commands women to be submissive to their husbands, their fathers etc.

Just as God commands men to submit to Him.

The figurative statements don't contradict direct commands.

A woman's submissiveness to her husband as a spiritual symbol and message to the world. So are you arguing that women shouldn't submit to their husbands, that women should be Bishops (pastors and teachers) husbands of one wife.

Even male kids should submit to their fathers and mothers and all wives should submit to their husband's at home. It should never stop them from using the grace of God in their lives in any capacity. In 1Tim2, however, Paul was never speaking of the family but church administration and doctrinal order. If God gives a wife grace like Aimee McPherson, founder and G.O. of Foursquare gospel church, or Joyce Meyer etc. she should answer the call, then, when at home, she should submit to her husband.

Are you arguing that God who said men should be priests is wrong or was Jesus being bias when he said there's no sex in heaven

I don't see the point of these two questions. Are you saying women are not to be part of the royal priesthood (1Pet2:9) or what? Anyway, seems there's more hope for you though than solite3 if you are beginning to see that its a spiritual context in 1Tim2.

None of you have answered my question.
Show me from the bible women who were
1.pastors
2. Apostles

What are the requirement for a woman pastor atleast we know from the bible that a male pastor must be able to rule his house?

If a woman is not allowed to lead her family is it not comical to think she can lead as a pastor over a church?

The qualifications of being a pastor is clearly outlined in the bible and it clear isn't meant for women. I wonder where you get these your modern doctrine certainly not the bible and you try to twist the bible to suit your heresy is wicked and appalling.

No wonder we have fraudsters and unqualified people bringing shame and reproach to the church of God because church these these days is about having branch and in increasing cash flow while the name of God is being blaspheme daily among unbelievers.

I know of a very big church that made a known cultist and an adulterer a pastor because they believe God can change or use anybody, what the so called pastor is doing now is unspeakable. Many abominations that are happening could be avoided if we stick to God's instruction.

nice thread, learnt a lot

solite3:
I know of a very big church that made a known cultist and an adulterer a pastor because they believe God can change or use anybody, what the so called pastor is doing now is unspeakable. Many abominations that are happening could be avoided if we stick to God's instruction.

Jehovah's Witnesses have told us "THERE IS NO GIFTS OF SPECTACULAR SIGNS TO BE ADMIRED OR HONOURED AMONG CHRISTIANS ANYMORE" 1Corinthians 13:8-9

Any spectacular signs and wonders you're seeing now is the works of the devil to mislead IF POSSIBLE the anointed Christians (born again)! Matthew 24:24

But if you people are doubting all these, then there can't be any yardstick to sought out FAKE from ORIGINAL in your midst!

@1John 5:3 we read This is what the LOVE of God means, that we obey his commandments, yet his commandments are not burdensome"

Please what's difficult in sticking to the WRITTEN documents meant for our instructions, if there is no selfish ambitious attached?

Simple instruction, "Only men are permitted to lead the congregation!" 1Timothy 2:12

BlueAngel444:
Women were made helpers and that isn't some mosaic law

Where did you see it that's it's not a mosaic law

Finallydead:
Give up solite3 and stop trying to twist things. I have never doubted any single thing Paul wrote and you know it. It is your understanding of what Paul wrote that's absurd. If you learn my counsel of taking two or three witnesses for every doctrinal position, it will help you evade some of your erroneous teaching from Paul's letters.

what were the erroneous teachings of paul name one.

Even his mention of the 'Eminent' apostle Junia, which you have subtly avoided, should have helped you but no.

where was it stated that junia was an apostle?

Your problem is exactly as Peter spoke of concerning Paul's letters
2 Peter 3:16
[16]As also in all his(Paul's) epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood,(e.g. Spiritual manhood and womanhood) which they that are unlearned(you) and unstable twist, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

you are the one twisting biblical teachings to your own damnation. Your spiritual ignorance is overwhelming.

The deal is are you devoted to the truth and integrity of God's word or your traditions of men (what you've always been told about the word by men). It will be known in what you do when you see that your traditions are faulty. If you are faithful to God's word, you'll let go of your traditions and begin to seek for truth which is indisputable, of the word of God. Ive had to do this again and again, realising that my initial understanding of Gods word may be wrong, will you?. So here is your opportunity, solite3.

Mr finallydead I point out to you what is clearly stated in the bible, or is scripture your faulty tradition? Pls show me the word of God that women should teach or lead the church and stop blabbing.

How do you know the Lord Jesus was being figurative when he asked you to gouge out your right eye. He never even bothered to interpret it, so you should have only one eye by now. Also, the answer to your question is in your simple answer to my question. This time dont stoop so low fumbling with the obvious answer, and making everyone here laugh. If you can't show that its a literal woman saved by literal childbirth, no use mentioning me again. Here's the trick question again. Since BlueAngel444 is still patting you on the back, you could also ask him to help you.

you brought out your tales of parables, Jesus is known doe using parables to teach not the apostles. Paul never taught with parable neither did peter, so where does this your tales of parables come from? Obviously to avoid the truth.

Christ is the head of the church as the(spiritual) Man is the head of the (spiritual) Woman, as also the physical man (husband) is the head of the physical woman (wife). It's then up to the context to tell you which Paul spoke of. You can't even see a context for family here. The only context is church administration and the learned in the subject know very well the meanings of the symbolisms here.

your are fooling yourself. muttylaff, shedeyinka come and see gibberish your friend is spilling.

Here in 1Tim2. It is totally figurative. I'm sure you missed it but the modest apparel the woman is to be dressed with is written right there...reverence/submission(shamefacedness) and seriousness....and good works. (1Tim2:9-10). You probably don't know that throughout scripture, our spiritual clothing has to do with character(Rev19:8, 3:2-4 also shows that perfect works parallel unstained garments, as well as all over the OT prophets).

Your are actually into some unbiblical teaching.
Paul's used the fact that Adam was created first to emphasize why women should not pastor a church, He was speaking clearly without any parable.

Maybe not sleep, but if that's your best cop-out after failing to recover your thread with a reasonable and doctrinally consitent answer to my trick question, not that shambles you did up there, I'll simply bow out now. My work seems done here.

the same way the serpent asked eve a trikish question, it is clear who you are working for.

You have failed so far, you know if you recognise Paul's teaching the way it is you would be exposed.

hashtagged:
Where did you see it that's it's not a mosaic law

Do you know the meaning of mosaic law?

solite3:
what were the erroneous teachings of paul name one.

None. Not a sinle thing Paul taught was errorneous and you know well I've never said so. You however are unlearned in his wisdom because you depend on your intellect to understand what he received by the Spirit (Gal1:11-12) and the intellectual cannot receive the spiritual which is spiritually discerned(1Cor2:14-15), though you are trying to discern them intellectually but he speaks the wisdom of God in a mystery. (1Cor2:6-7). Humble yourself and ask the Holy Spirit to reveal the true meaning of Paul's writings else keep twisting them with mere intellect. (Jn14:26)

Paul's used the fact that Adam was created first to emphasize why women should not pastor a church, He was speaking clearly without any parable.

Its obvious youre running from the truth my question brings out. Stop running away from this question else stop quoting me. Im not interested in arguing with you, if you cant prove me wrong that it was figurative by answering well, then it was figurative. If it wasn't figurative in 1Tim2, answer this.

I asked you a simple question and you failed woefully in your attempt to answer. How can the woman in 1Tim2:15 be a literal female, when this woman's salvation is through childbirth. What happens to barren or celibate women. What about unbelieving females who also give birth, will they be saved or partake in Christ's work for making babies, not to mention those out of wedlock. You gave a clumsy and comical answer that could pass for nairaland joke of the year- that women, having by nature, controlling tendencies over men(like we men don't. which is also a big lie in many cases of women I've met, who are rather too submissive), will be saved from that when they give birth...my, my. MuttleyLaff could help us with a good meme for that. There isn't even a single dominant woman who became submissive after childbirth. My question was just to help all see that this was a parable of Paul. Or again would you say Paul is delegating prayer to literal men (excluding women) and dresscodes to literal women. So that prayer is now gender specific?

You brought out your tales of parables, Jesus is known for using parables to teach not the apostles. Paul never taught with parable neither did peter, so where does this your tales of parables come from? Obviously to avoid the truth.

Galatians 4:24-26
[24]Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
[25]For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
[26]But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

2 Peter 2:22
[22]But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
Please note an allegory is a figure of speech. Most of the OT stories, though real serve as allegories including Adam and Eve.

Finallydead:
None. Not a sinle thing Paul taught was errorneous and you know well I've never said so. You however are unlearned in his wisdom because you depend on your intellect to understand what he received by the Spirit (Gal1:11-12) and the intellectual cannot receive the spiritual which is spiritually discerned(1Cor2:14-15), though you are trying to discern them intellectually but he speaks the wisdom of God in a mystery. (1Cor2:6-7). Humble yourself and ask the Holy Spirit to reveal the true meaning of Paul's writings else keep twisting them with mere intellect. (Jn14:26)


Its obvious youre running from the truth my question brings out. Stop running away from this question else stop quoting me. Im not interested in arguing with you, if you cant prove me wrong that it was figurative by answering well, then it was figurative. If it wasn't figurative in 1Tim2, answer this.



Galatians 4:24-26
[24]Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
[25]For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
[26]But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

2 Peter 2:22
[22]But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
Please note an allegory is a figure of speech. Most of the OT stories, though real serve as allegories including Adam and Eve.

you inability to accept the truth is because of your hostilty towards God.
The carnal mind is enmity with God for it is not subject to God neither can it be.

solite3:
you inability to accept the truth is because of your hostilty towards God.
The carnal mind is enmity with God for it is not subject to God neither can it be.

"Now these are the gifts Christ gave to the church: the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, and the pastors and teachers."
- Ephesians 4:11

Each one of you guys, i am 1000% its your wives who wears the trousers in your homes. You're just ceremonial heads of the family, because its your wives who really runs and makes most decisions for your families. You're a bunch of Pharisees and hypocrites, the lot of you solite3, BlueAngel444 and whoever else the caps fits. You all dont even know or properly understand what the meaning the Greek phrase "have authority over man" is smh

What is a pastor, a pastor afterall, is a shepherd and there are plenty shepherdess amock in the bible. Please stop already all this sexist and misogyny. If you arent comfortable with a woman pastor, then leave those comfortable with that.

Ephesians 4:11 above doesnt anywhere in it, ascribe gender, as a qualifier, for any of the gift(s) given there to the church.

CaveAdullam:
This is your own teaching/interpretation because it is not expressly commanded in the scripture.

What is not expressly commanded? That a woman can preach?

Not only a prophetess, but also an Apostle, Teacher, etc 1 Corinthians 12:28.

The Word of God never assigned these gifts from a gender position.



JMAN05 the term "men" is not used for the adult male human but the human race or human kind.

If we should go by your logic it means that;

1. It is only men that can trespass. Matthew 6:15

2. It is only men we should confess the name of Jesus to. Matthew 10:32


Like I said earlier, a general overseer or bishop MUST BE A MAN AND THE HEAD OF A CHURCH. He can also play the role of a pastor, teacher, prophet, apostle etc. A woman can also play any of these roles but cannot be appointed as a general overseer or bishop.

We must compare 1Timothy 2:12 with 1Corinthians 12:28 and Ephesians 4:11 in order to have a balance interpretation.

If I understand you, you are saying that men as used in that verse 8 is about men and women. You gave examples to back your point. Granted, many cases where "men" occur in the scriptures, men and women are meant, in fact it could refer to humans as a whole.

However, in this Bible portion, men who take the lead are meant. They are the gift meant here. (verse 11)

Notice what verse 11 said of these gifts: "he have some as apostles, some as prophets, some as evangelizers, some as shepherds and teachers. "

It didn't say that he gave some gift of prophesying. No, rather he gave some as apostles, prophets etc. So, Paul was stating that the men taking the lead in the congregation are gifts given to the Congregation by God. This was not about the miraculous gift issued to the congregation.

Why was these men gifts (apostles, prophets etc) given to the congregation? And why does this show that it was an office of oversight, not just a common position held by others?

Verse 12,13

"For perfecting the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: till we all come in the unity of faith, and of knowledge of the son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ."

From these, we can infer that the "gifts in men" ( men taking the lead) are the ones meant here, inclusive are the apostles whom Jesus appointed. They are not women, but men given to the congregation to readjust them towards achieving the unity in the body of Christ.

The same thing is implied in verse 28 of 1cor. 12.

It said God has set/appointed some first, as apostles, second, as prophets, thirdly as teachers ; then....' he now began to mention gift of the spirit.

I am not saying that God didn't give his holy spirit to the apostles, prophets, etc. No, rather Paul was not talking about that in Eph 4:8,11. He was rather saying that 'it is men God has given to the congregation as gifts to assist it. These men occupy as prophets, apostles, evangelizers, shepherds and teachers.




2. You keep mentioning the General Overseer as the head. well, for true Christian congregation, the head is Christ, not anyone else. One man head that we observe in churches is unscriptural. Christ is the head. However, a body of elders take the lead in guiding the flock of God on Earth. That is a matter for another discussion.

MuttleyLaff:
"Now these are the gifts Christ gave to the church: the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, and the pastors and teachers."
- Ephesians 4:11

Each one of you guys, i am 1000% its your wives who wears the trousers in your homes. You're just ceremonial heads of the family, because its your wives who really runs and makes most decisions for your families. You're a bunch of Pharisees and hypocrites, the lot of you solite3, BlueAngel444 and whoever else the caps fits. You all dont even know or properly understand what the meaning the Greek phrase "have authority over man" is smh

What is a pastor, a pastor afterall, is a shepherd and there are plenty shepherdess amock in the bible. Please stop already all this sexist and misogyny. If you arent comfortable with a woman pastor, then leave those comfortable with that.

Ephesians 4:11 above doesnt anywhere in it, ascribe gender, as a qualifier, for any of the gift(s) given there to the church.

Verse 8 says he gave gifts unto men". The interlinear, word for word says "gave gifts to the men".

JMAN05:
What is not expressly commanded? That a woman can preach?



If I understand you, you are saying that men as used in that verse 8 is about men and women. You gave examples to back your point. Granted, many cases where "men" occur in the scriptures, men and women are meant, in fact it could refer to humans as a whole.

However, in this Bible portion, men who take the lead are meant. They are the gift meant here. (verse 11)

Notice what verse 11 said of these gifts: "he have some as apostles, some as prophets, some as evangelizers, some as shepherds and teachers. "

It didn't say that he gave some gift of prophesying. No, rather he gave some as apostles, prophets etc. So, Paul was stating that the men taking the lead in the congregation are gifts given to the Congregation by God. This was not about the miraculous gift issued to the congregation.

Why was these men gifts (apostles, prophets etc) given to the congregation? And why does this show that it was an office of oversight, not just a common position held by others?

Verse 12,13

"For perfecting the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: till we all come in the unity of faith, and of knowledge of the son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ."

From these, we can infer that the "gifts in men" ( men taking the lead) are the ones meant here, inclusive are the apostles whom Jesus appointed. They are not women, but men given to the congregation to readjust them towards achieving the unity in the body of Christ.

The same thing is implied in verse 28 of 1cor. 12.

It said God has set/appointed some first, as apostles, second, as prophets, thirdly as teachers ; then....' he now began to mention gift of the spirit.

I am not saying that God didn't give his holy spirit to the apostles, prophets, etc. No, rather Paul was not talking about that in Eph 4:8,11. He was rather saying that 'it is men God has given to the congregation as gifts to assist it. These men occupy as prophets, apostles, evangelizers, shepherds and teachers.




2. You keep mentioning the General Overseer as the head. well, for true Christian congregation, the head is Christ, not anyone else. One man head that we observe in churches is unscriptural. Christ is the head. However, a body of elders take the lead in guiding the flock of God on Earth. That is a matter for another discussion.

You are just trying to twist 1 Corinthians 12:28 and Ephesians 4:11 to satisfy your opinion. Both passages are clear like daylight, and there is no need trying to upsurge a particular interpretation.

My points are already stated in my previous posts, repeating myself will be of no essence.

Thanks.

God bless.

JMAN05:
Verse 8 says he gave gifts unto men". The interlinear, word for word says "gave gifts to the men".

Trying to teach the word of God to a person who doesn't know the Word of God


Keep trying bro, keep trying

CaveAdullam:
You are just trying to twist 1 Corinthians 12:28 and Ephesians 4:11 to satisfy your opinion. Both passages are clear like daylight, and there is no need trying to upsurge a particular interpretation.

My points are already stated in my previous posts, repeating myself will be of no essence.

Thanks.

God bless.

what did he twist

CaveAdullam:
You are just trying to twist 1 Corinthians 12:28 and Ephesians 4:11 to satisfy your opinion. Both passages are clear like daylight, and there is no need trying to upsurge a particular interpretation.

My points are already stated in my previous posts, repeating myself will be of no essence.

Thanks.

God bless.

Maybe you should help me understand your point. Did I not understand your comment before I responded?

If I did understand it, am not yet seeing how your point best explains Paul's writings.

hashtagged:
Where did you see it that's it's not a mosaic law

It was stated from the beginning

Kathryn Kulhma and Aimee Semple MacPherson, (who was the founder of Foursquare Gospel Church) were called of God.

God used these women tremendously to do diverse works and even in leadership positions.

solite3:
women could be evangelists, children or women teachers, but are not appointed as pastors or church leaders by the Lord.

God bless you sir.

1StopRudeness:
I don't know why we pick bible verses that doesn't say what we claim it's saying and juxtapose modern day doctrine to suit and enforce our church laws. Jesus chose 12 male disciples... he had his reason...he never said those reasons. let's not assume for Jesus


the bible is very clear in Joel chap 2, I will pour out my spirit on all flesh, for prophesying, dreaming, seeing visions...all this gift and many more was further emphasized by Paul in 1corinth 12 that they are for the edification of the body of christ and given as the spirit of God wills...
God ddnt say men only, neither did he say his spirit upon women should be for subordinate or support roles......even Paul who said women shouldn't speak in church but ask their husbands questions at home was speaking to address an issue of humility and order in that context..... because there are non-married women too in church, who should they ask question when they need to?? their neighbors husband or the man selling biscuit down the road??

Paul was extra clear in gal 3v28:: "There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus"

God can use anyone in the body of christ that make himself or herself available.....dont make pastoral role a male exclusive thing

JMAN05:
Maybe you should help me understand your point. Did I not understand your comment as I responded?

If I did understand it, am not yet seeing how your point best explains Paul's writings.

if you say so, no prob bro.

shadeyinka:
I certainly do not subscribe to women pastoring/administer churches. The only exception is if ALL the men are babes/new converts and there is no spiritually matured male that can head the church. Even if ALL the men are babes, it would be a sin on whoever the woman is to keep them as babes so that she can rule over them.

God has designed it so: that order may be in the church. The Man is the head of his wife just as Christ is the head of the man. It has nothing to do with the intelligence of the wife, her wealth, her connection as long as the husband is a "MAN" indeed. By man, it means mature (not a babe: can take decision on his own)

shedeyinka I agree with you a woman could be a pastor in a non ideal situation i.e where there are no qualified men but such church is not really an ideal church.

Aimee Semple MacPherson, a woman, the founder and first General Overseer of Foursquare Gospel church comes to mind here.

CaveAdullam:
1 Corinthians 12:28-31
KJV:Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
28
KJV:And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
29
KJV:Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
30
KJV:Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
31
KJV:But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

From the Bible passage above we can see that the office of a Prophet,Apostle, Teacher is not gender specific. This also correlate with the Bible passage below.

So therefore a woman, can be a pastor, teacher, apostle, evangelist etc.

Ephesians 4:10-13
KJV:He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
11
KJV:And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12
KJV:For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13
KJV:Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

My own take on this matter is that a woman should not assume the role of a general overseer/Bishop/Senior leader in a church thereby making her have a total and complete authority of the church administration.

BTW the head of a church is not a Pastor, Apostle, Prophet, Evangelist, Teacher etc. The Bishop or general overseer is the head. In this position he can also have the gift or play the role of a Pastor, Apostle, Prophet, Teacher etc.

I am open for correction.

Thanks.

God bless.

JMAN05:
Verse 8 says he gave gifts unto men". The interlinear, word for word says "gave gifts to the men".

I am going to leave your comment like it is, and let others come to correct you and it or let you yourself, come to correct yourself about what "men" in Greek indeed and truly means, lol. Jokingly speak, maybe, if it was a woman who wrote that, perhaps, its "women' in place of "men" we would have seen and be reading, lol.

solite3:
shedeyinka I agree with you a woman could be a pastor in a non ideal situation i.e where there are no qualified men but such church is not really an ideal church.

Of course such a church cannot be an ideal church. It's a church that is not yet qualified to appoint elders/deacons where all but the woman in question is a baby in the Lord.

This may occur only in the remote village without a single church presence.

The question really is, : if a woman is heading a ministry (Joyce Meyer), is she under the permissive will of God?

BlueAngel444:
It was stated from the beginning

Where? By who? . Just stop being a sexists in the shadows.

Did Deborah not lead armies of men into battle. God is impartial he can pick anyone to lead including women. Stop looking down on them.