₦airaland Forum

Just because I think something is a crock doesn't mean anyone else has to. It isn't really anything worth getting offended by. . . just a difference in opinion.

Regarding the Japanese, their high savings rate helped them a lot prior to the 90s (at least if that blog post I posted is any indication of a trend)

Interesting thread.

Lee Kuan Yew in his book From Third World to First mentioned at the start of this thread, recounts encounters with African leaders, including those that occurred during a Commonwealth conference hosted in Lagos in early January 1966. Perhaps we can find therein a few clues to our predicament - from his perspective, at least:

The night before the meeting [Commonwealth conference], Sir Abubakar Tafawa Balewa, whom I had visited two years before, gave us a banquet in the hotel. Raja and I were seated opposite a hefty Nigerian, Chief Festus, their finance minister. The conversation is still fresh in my mind. He was going to retire soon, he said. He had done enough for his country and now had to look after his business, a shoe factory. As finance minister, he had imposed a tax on imported shoes so that Nigeria could make shoes. Raja and I were incredulous. Chief Festus had a good appetite that showed in his rotund figure, elegantly camouflaged in colorful Nigerian robes with gold ornamentation and a splendid cap. I went to bed that night convinced that they were a different people playing by a different set of rules.

Yew, From Third World to First, Harper-Collins, pp 352.


Further on, he makes some controversial statements reflecting on the conference:

I was not optimistic about Africa. In less than 10 years after independence in 1957, Nigeria had had a coup and Ghana a failed coup. I thought their tribal loyalties were stronger than their sense of common nationhood. This was especially so in Nigeria, where there was a deep cleavage between the Muslim Hausa northerners and the Christian and pagan southerners, In Ghana, the problem was less acute, but there were still clear tribal divisions. Unlike India, Ghana did not have long years of training and tutelage in the methods and discipline of modern government.

pp 357, From Third World to First.

ekt_bear:
Just because I think something is a crock doesn't mean anyone else has to. It isn't really anything worth getting offended by. . . just a difference in opinion.

Regarding the Japanese, their high savings rate helped them a lot prior to the 90s (at least if that blog post I posted is any indication of a trend)

oh paleeese its an insult and you know it, but offended naw just amused because i thought your inquisitive nature would like to debate and discuss not respond with indirect banter

nolongTing:
You have now been awarded a NL nobel peace prize, get real NL is full of dimwits and they only understand one language; stop trying to be a goody two shoes and make a constructive point. The OP messed up his own thread talking about Crock and whatever , so its all about leading by example.

Nothing wrong being a sarcastic Nobel Peace Prize winner, if we have many such people perhaps our country would be better for it. What is constructive about attacking a different point of view? If the OP 'messed' up his thread then perhaps you could help steer it in the right direction instead of making a bad situation worse

* I know about European history  because I went to school in the Netherlands for post-graduate study.
* I am sure you've never been to New York, have you? well, lemme school you.

Clear symptoms of Narcissistic personality disorder. Any shrinks in the house, to help this "na me first go to school for my family" idi.iot?

Self-loathing? Check!

NPD is considered to result from a person's belief that they are flawed in a way that makes them fundamentally unacceptable to others.[8] This belief is held below the person's conscious awareness; such a person would, if questioned, typically deny thinking such a thing. In order to protect themselves against the intolerably painful rejection and isolation that (they imagine) would follow if others recognised their (perceived) defective nature, such people make strong attempts to control others’ views of them and behavior towards them.

Nija4Life:
If the OP 'messed' up his thread then perhaps you could help steer it in the right direction instead of making a bad situation worse

practice what you preach

longman83:
Interesting thread.

Lee Kuan Yew in his book From Third World to First mentioned at the start of this thread, recounts encounters with African leaders, including those that occurred during a Commonwealth conference hosted in Lagos in early January 1966. Perhaps we can find therein a few clues to our predicament - from his perspective, at least:

The night before the meeting [Commonwealth conference], Sir Abubakar Tafawa Balewa, whom I had visited two years before, gave us a banquet in the hotel. Raja and I were seated opposite a hefty Nigerian, Chief Festus, their finance minister. The conversation is still fresh in my mind. He was going to retire soon, he said. He had done enough for his country and now had to look after his business, a shoe factory. As finance minister, he had imposed a tax on imported shoes so that Nigeria could make shoes. Raja and I were incredulous. Chief Festus had a good appetite that showed in his rotund figure, elegantly camouflaged in colorful Nigerian robes with gold ornamentation and a splendid cap. I went to bed that night convinced that they were a different people playing by a different set of rules.

Yew, From Third World to First, Harper-Collins, pp 352.

I can see the problem - corruption from the start!

longman83:
I was not optimistic about Africa. In less than 10 years after independence in 1957, Nigeria had had a coup and Ghana a failed coup. I thought their tribal loyalties were stronger than their sense of common nationhood. This was especially so in Nigeria, where there was a deep cleavage between the Muslim Hausa northerners and the Christian and pagan southerners, In Ghana, the problem was less acute, but there were still clear tribal divisions. Unlike India, Ghana did not have long years of training and tutelage in the methods and discipline of modern government.

whose independence? I have been emphasising the bolded part but nobody thinks its the main problem.  it has nothing to do with the white man this or the white man that, we cannot just brush their attrocities under the carpet but the so-called white people don't even matter any more we should be worrying about the yellow people.

@nolongTing

No culture breeds bad leadership. Bad is not a cultural practice in any tribe or nation. Let's not try to discredit Africans because we are so deep up the "western" philosophy's buttt!!

Bad is bad and it is not a cultural practice! If I define culture as a way of life, it doesn't mean if a group of people cut across ethnic nationalities are misbehaving, it is their way of life,

Corruption is not a way of life. So I will define culture and a generally acceptable way of life, Should you have proof to jail Obasanjo for corruption, if judicial corruption is not something to worry about, Obasanjo will be jailed for corruption so you can't say Nigerians have a culture of acceptable corruption,

Bad leadership is not a case of culture so there is no link between culture and bad leadership. Some dictators are bad leaders and eventually the people toppled them so you can't say if it's their culture to be a bad leader, the people will still overthrow them,

So don't try to create a link between bad leadership and culture. Culture is an acceptable way of life of a people,



I want to insult you a bit

You be real uncle tom!!!!!!!

. I thought their tribal loyalties were stronger than their sense of common nationhood. This was especially so in Nigeria -Lee Kuan Yew

The same problem we identified on page one of this thread, but yet to specifically address with solutions, refer to my previous post if interested.

Any takers on how to forge a common national ideology?

nolongTing:
I can see the problem - corruption from the start!

He paid for that with his life, being the most obvious corrupt government functionary, in a sad event that culminated in the Nigerian Civil War.

We are still missing the point, corruption is part of it, but not the main issue. Look deeper and more inwards, corruption, greed, e.t.c are human vices, they are not inherently African, they manifest as symptoms of a deeper Nigerian malaise.

nolongTing:
I can see the problem - corruption from the start!

whose independence? I have been emphasising the bolded part but nobody thinks its the main problem.  it has nothing to do with the white man this or the white man that, we cannot just brush their attrocities under the carpet but the so-called white people don't even matter any more we should be worrying about the yellow people.

Yes!! I personally will put my tribe first if Nigeria contradicts my people's need, take not that I don't want to or have any desire to lead Nigerians, I want my people to be lead to political, Ideological, technological and spiritual El dorado,

Now please can you tell me what is wrong with that?

You know why any intelligent person will still think it's the White man's fault? Because the created this mess in the first place!! Lumping enemy tribes into one nation for their own gains, Territorial sharing what da fuk? Nubia belongs to Nubia not for some eediot cave men to come and say they want to share a territory,

What is the cracker doing in Libya? And now, Libya will descend into chaos when they leave, then the finger pointing starts, eUROPEANS AND aMERICANS (spelt that way to make it ugly) will start poking fun at Libyans like look at you stooopid country and start measuring intelligence by how well people organize their country,

When the Brits helped the North rig the census did they consider the consequences?

The cracker is still trading weapons to rebels for blood diamond!!!! All these attributes of souless entities!!!

Yes the cracker came, gave sophisticated guns to a more submissive side for political reasons and watch the casualties of war rise by ten thousand%,

Who was Saddam's Ally who gave him weapons against Iran? Yeah that's right the same cracker! Who invaded his country bombing it to bits? Yeah that's right crackers, Now what do we get? A nation just going ahead became a total ruin of it's past,

Are you for real, I will blame the cracker and uncle toms for our predicaments!!!

okada_man:
Any takers on how to forge a common national ideology?

That only happens when you show you are ready to lay down your life for that ideology. An ideology can just be a collection of words on a piece of paper and uttered until you are asked to "walk the walk" . That's essentially how the ideology of the United States was cemented through the American Revolution and independence from England. You want freedom? Well, then fight for it!

Unfortunately for Haiti, being the only black nation to gain independence by revolt (and the only successful revolt of slaves), they were immediately embargoed, and bogged down by a different form of slavery, and were never allowed to achieve their potential. The latest events are merely the result of centuries of decay. Start the analysis from the roots, and don't just jump into the middle.

9jaganja:
@nolongTing

No culture breeds bad leadership. Bad is not a cultural practice in any tribe or nation. Let's not try to discredit Africans because [size=15pt]we are so deep up the "western" philosophy's buttt!![/size]

[size=15pt]OMG another mad fa-g.g.ot! [/size] where are all the NL peace keepers?

okada_man:
We are still missing the point, corruption is part of it, but not the main issue. Look deeper and more inwards, corruption, greed, e.t.c are human vices, they are not inherently African, they manifest as symptoms of a deeper Nigerian malaise.

I always laugh when America points at Nigeria's corruption. We learnt from the best. Only a fool doesn't know the depth of corruption in the US. What keeps them running is how well organized they've managed to be. Of course if they are sabotaged like Nigeria was (and still is), they'd be a mess right now. You cannot aid the worst elements in a country into becoming the rulers and then point at the same country and say they are collectively re.tard.ed.

okada_man:
The same problem we identified on page one of this thread, but yet to specifically address with solutions, refer to my previous post if interested.

Any takers on how to forge a common national ideology?

brain wash!!!!!! Big time Brain wash!!!

But are you willing to see Yorubas give up their tribe for Nigeria? I'm not!!

Are you willing to see the Tiv give up their tribe? I'm not,

Trying to form a national identity is a fallacy, What we can do is protect ethnic identities under Nigeria.

As long as we all have histories dating back thousands of years, we are not going to give up our identities for a union that isn't working,

If Nigeria was working, psychologically people will be happy being Nigerian, Yes we are diverse but the truth is unless we have an imposed identity, which may lead to rebellion after rebellion, ethnic groups trying to make their identity the national identity, etc, Imposed identity is not a choice,

Let everybody go seriously if Nigeria is not willing to practice true federalism, Ogoni people are a minority in Nigeria. how do you feel being a minority in your homeland and being almost irrelevant because you are over shadowed?

Let every tribe have their region, and develop as Nigerians while the federal government makes sure there is trade and all sorts of interaction between the tribes, NATURALLY OVER TIME, THE PEOPLE WILL COME TO SEE THEM SELVES AS NIGERIANS IN CONTEXT OF THEIR RESPECTIVE TRIBES!!!!!!

9jaganja:
Are you for real,  I will blame the cracker and my parents for my predicament!!!

Are you under the influence of an illegal substance by any chance? you sound incoherent, dull and dopey  

nolongTing:
Are you under the influence of an illegal substance by any chance? you sound incoherent, dull and dopey  

Ok I get it you got a potty mouth, But How about logically opposing me?

I left holes in my argument as trap to test the depth of your logical reasonings So how about logically proving me wrong instead of insulting my parents?

logica:
He paid for that with his life, being the most obvious corrupt government functionary, in a sad event that culminated in the Nigerian Civil War.

hmm, interesting point.

I think 9jaganja and nolongthing are on the same page if if they can carefully read each others posts.

Let's move ahead to solutions:

We've heard how miserable we are, how backward and all that sad stuff

Solutions?

EKt_bear seem to be suggesting financial prudence as a solution, I think that is a no brainer, but I'm wondering how to align everyone's interest together nationally so we can do that, either forcibly or by positive manipulation/pacification

@Logica I agree, we will need to walk that talk soon, I see no other way, but the more willing people you can win to your side and the more resources you can acquire the better.

Are you willing to fund an ideological revolution? can you fund an ideological political party w/o an expectation of financial returns?

Edit: fund

T

okada_man:
I think 9jaganja and nolongthing are on the same page if if they can carefully read each others posts.

he started off like a twit, so I treated him as such

9jaganja:
@nolongTing

No culture breeds bad leadership. Bad is not a cultural practice in any tribe or nation. Let's not try to discredit Africans because we are so deep up the "western" philosophy's buttt!!

when did I insult Africans? I have been defending them and explaining why we are in our current predicament

9jaganja:
Bad is bad and it is not a cultural practice! If I define culture as a way of life, it doesn't mean if a group of people cut across ethnic nationalities are misbehaving, it is their way of life,

Corruption is not a way of life. So I will define culture and a generally acceptable way of life,  Should you have proof to jail Obasanjo for corruption, if judicial corruption is not something to worry about, Obasanjo will be jailed for corruption so you can't say Nigerians have a culture of acceptable corruption, Bad leadership is not a case of culture so there is no link between culture and bad leadership. Some dictators are bad leaders and eventually the people toppled them so you can't say if it's their culture to be a bad leader, the people will still overthrow them,

This is senseless waffle

9jaganja:
So don't try to create a link between bad leadership and culture. Culture is an acceptable way of life of a people,

If he was more eloquent I would have like to discuss this point but then he writes:==

9jaganja:
I want to insult you a bit

You be real uncle tom!!!!!!!

Thats pathetic! its impossible for me to be an uncle tom I'm allergic to it.

Brain wash is fine if it works, you can't fool everyone all of the time huh? I wish Nigerians can be brainwashed into becoming a vibrant and ideologically strong nation.

@9jaganja I think you and nolongthing made the same points minus the insults, looks at his post on previous pages, I see little to no uncle tomism or any Africa bashing. But maybe it's my glasses.

9jaganja:
Ok I get it you got a potty mouth, But How about logically opposing me?

what do you think this is an election? wake up junkie its a discussion on the net!

9jaganja:
I left holes in my argument as trap to test the depth of your logical reasonings

Do you expect me to believe this crap? You are full of holes period; look spend your money on methadone next time not the web cafe

okada_man:
Brain wash is fine if it works, you can't fool everyone all of the time huh? I wish Nigerians can be brainwashed into becoming a vibrant and ideologically strong nation.

@9jaganja I think you and nolongthing made the same points minus the insults, looks at his post on previous pages, I see little to no uncle tomism or any Africa bashing. But maybe it's my glasses.

Sorry to no long thing!! But then no long thing hahahaha, Seriously I called him uncletom as a joke because I thought he was trying to link culture and bad leadership, Knowing many uncle toms have said the "African law/culture" is the reason we are where we are when for centuries the cracker handed down his laws to us!!

About brainwashing, it takes lots and lots of funding! First we need to get the people with what they like, sell them a dream we are sure can be achieved and promote such dream in a Nigerian context which will have to be created,

These tools may be a slap to religion but hey, I'm not a Xtian or Muslim, I'm a Yoruba Nigerian! Brain washing through entertainment, education, We need to liberalize the mind of the people close to a numb that way, ideologies are easily accepted, The North needs to liberalize the minds of their youths seriously!!!

We need to control the kind of Ideologies that floats around through propaganda to make sure people don't get the wrong ideas in their heads, Any political officer uttering in sensitive statement should first be rubbished publicly, disgraced before killed! (Cruel I know but if many leaders didn't say somethings, Nigeria will be better really)!!

it takes lots and lots of brain storming, dedication and funding. That is why Nigeria need think tanks sooo baaaadd!!


Seriously nolongthing, I'm sorry, I misinterpreted your post!!! My bad!! But you are stooopid hahahahahahah

On a final note, for the self-loather you can say I am a decade ahead of you, as I took the stance of a self-loather to understand the factors behind having to leave my land just to have a better life. I was bitter. And it took me 4 years to get the answer as each piece in the lock clicked into place. I am merely trying to fast-track your journey, or you can spend more time figuring it out.

nolongTing:
what do you think this is an election? wake up junkie its a discussion on the net!

Do you expect me to believe this crap? You are full of holes period; look spend your money on methadone next time not the web cafe  

It's enough now ahn ahn!!! Let's get back to topic jorr

I think we are on same page but I'll like you to find the holes though!!

9jaganja:
Sorry to no long thing!! But then no long thing hahahaha,  Seriously I called him uncletom as a joke because I thought he was trying to link culture and bad leadership,  Knowing many uncle toms have said the "African law/culture" is the reason we are where we are when for centuries the cracker handed down his laws to us!!

About brainwashing, it takes lots and lots of funding! First we need to get the people with what they like, sell them a dream we are sure can be achieved and promote such dream in a Nigerian context which will have to be created,

These tools may be a slap to religion but hey, I'm not a Xtian or Muslim, I'm a Yoruba Nigerian! Brain washing through entertainment, education,  We need to liberalize the mind of the people close to a numb that way, ideologies are easily accepted,  The North needs to liberalize the minds of their youths seriously!!!

We need to control the kind of Ideologies that floats around through propaganda to make sure people don't get the wrong ideas in their heads,  Any political officer uttering in sensitive statement should first be rubbished publicly, disgraced before killed! (Cruel I know but if many leaders didn't say somethings, Nigeria will be better really)!!

it takes lots and lots of brain storming, dedication and funding. That is why Nigeria need think tanks sooo baaaadd!!


[size=15pt]Seriously nolongthing, I'm sorry,  I misinterpreted your post!!! My bad!! [/size]But you are stooopid hahahahahahah

Thats fine it shows you are passionate about the subject because i certainly am - potty boy!  

nolongTing:
Thats fine it shows you are passionate about the subject because i certainly am - potty boy!  

Lol haahaha go jor!!!

9jaganja, they will soon label you a lunatic ideologue, but it comes with the territory, be ready to embrace it, don't be telling people you want to kill them upfront though, it only works in movies, you say that when you get the power in your hands.

Seriously though, we need solutions rooted in a sellable and coherent national philosophy, I don't care if we need to carry around a "little green book". We need to give future generations something to hold on to.

Keep discussing, I'll be back.

9jaganja:
About brainwashing, it takes lots and lots of funding! First we need to get the people with what they like, sell them a dream we are sure can be achieved and promote such dream in a Nigerian context which will have to be created,

These tools may be a slap to religion but hey, I'm not a Xtian or Muslim, I'm a Yoruba Nigerian! Brain washing through entertainment, education,  We need to liberalize the mind of the people close to a numb that way, ideologies are easily accepted,  The North needs to liberalize the minds of their youths seriously!!!

A Yoruba Nigerian? You can only chose one lol! I think the best tool is leading by example, that task is easier when its in the context of a well defined culture.  Synergy would be great but I believe that the different ethnic groups are more interested in point scoring and gaining political advantages rather than bringing about REAL unity.  I mentioned it earlier that Nigeria to this day still dose not have a national cultural policy that has been implemented.

9jaganja:
We need to control the kind of Ideologies that floats around through propaganda to make sure people don't get the wrong ideas in their heads,  Any political officer uttering in sensitive statement should first be rubbished publicly, disgraced before killed! (Cruel I know but if many leaders didn't say somethings, Nigeria will be better really)!!

Thats why we need to embrace our cultures, the oyinbos have the upper hand because most Africans practice european or Arab culture.  By embracing and modernising our culture they will lose influence, the young will aspire to different things - in short the oyinbos will have to start reading our books and paying us to understand our culture so they can participate.  But you are right brainstorming is the way forward.