₦airaland Forum

donnie:
Problems come when we misuse the words priest, levite, temple etc. And I find that this is deliberate.

I've also noticed some conflation here on the use of the above terms, but you can elaborate on that.

I am a Christian. While I consider the Torah to be relevant, I hold Christ above the Torah. If your faith is different, then we'll be deviating from my original post, which is not necessarily a bad thing tho.

okosunehis:
I've also noticed some conflation here on the use of the above terms, but you can elaborate on that.

Firstly, the true children of Israel are scattered to the four corners of the earth. Those in the land called Isreal today are not the people but ESAU/EDOM. There are tribes in subsaharan Africa we know to be the true descendants of Levites (Hebrew: Lewi), Example Ma-lewi, known today as Malawi are Levites by blood. Nevertheless, temple worship has been discontinued and will resume when MESSIAH returns and gathers his true people.

As such, its a fraud for any Christian to claim to be a Levite by faith, just to collect people's money. In the bible, no pastor, evangelist, apostle etc ever collected tithes. Even MESSIAH could not have collected because he is not levite but of YAHUNDE (JUDAH). Now that temple is destroyed and will be rebuilt after MESSIAH returns.

okosunehis:
I am a Christian. While I consider the Torah to be relevant, I hold Christ above the Torah. If your faith is different, then we'll be deviating from my original post, which is not necessarily a bad thing tho.

Even Christ does not hold himself above the Torah, that's an abomination. He would not qualify to be ISRAEL's MESSIAH if that was the case. Even his disciples will not have followed him if they perceived such. He was subject to his father's will. His life and even his sacrifice were all in fulfillment of the law. He had to obey. He FULL-FILLED (completed) the law because he was the sin sacrifice for our eternal redemption.

Hebrews 10
7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

Even in the coming kingdom, he will rule by the TORAH, so there's no escaping the law.
Isaiah 2:3
And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of YAHUAH, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of YAHUAH from Jerusalem.

okosunehis:
Question: Have you ever heard from "God Himself"? God always speaks through his messengers.

Yes, Every day, and one thing He never does is change what He has said.

okosunehis:
We all need to understand this; no matter how perfect the law of God is, there is a high chance it will always be translated imperfectly because the person relating the message has his limitations; the prophets and the apostles only received the spirit of God in "part". The only messenger that received the Holy Spirit in full is Jesus Christ.

WHAT?

okosunehis:
The laws of God through Moses were not perfect, anybody that claims they are should do well to abide by them in-toto, not cherry-picking the ones he finds convenient. The new is greater than the old; the old is a shadow of the new; the old was the letter, the new is the spirit. If the old was perfect, then there would have been no need for the new.

The law of Moses were commandments from God Himself. God never said there was an option to cherry-pick His commandments, so of course, anyone who falls short will be condemned by the law.
Jesus Christ, the new covenant, is a better covenant because it is bought with the blood of the lamb of God Himself for our sake, so the yoke is easy and the burden it places on us is light when compared to the old covenant. And just as Jesus said that you do not put new wine into an old wineskin,
so it is that should you choose to adopt the new covenant, you do not make it better by keeping one foot in the old covenant , you only ruin the new wine that way for yourself.

okosunehis:
Tithe means one-tenth. The Mosaic law of tithes is not what Abraham performed, of course that came way after. Abraham gave Melchizedek a tenth of his battle spoils. That is the first example of tithing in the Bible and St. Paul corroborated this in Hebrews 7:4-6 (shared below)

4 Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils.

5 And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:

6 But he whose descent is not counted from them received tithes of Abraham, and blessed him that had the promises.

This is why I urge people to focus on what Jesus said. There are still so many who don't even know anything about the new covenant that is Jesus Christ -- not the blessings, curses, commandments and principles to live by, nor the seal of the Covenant, nor how to adopt the new covenant.
Abraham never paid tithes under the Mosaic law -- The point Paul was trying to make there for the Jewish believers was to convince them to adopt the new covenant and abandon the old which was of no worth to them in Christ.

Kobojunkie:
But what I said stands that no single church today practices tithing exactly as God stipulated that it ought to in the Pentateuch, NONE!

You may be correct, I am in no position to know so there's no point arguing that.

okosunehis:
Question: Have you ever heard from "God Himself"? God always speaks through his messengers.

Kobojunkie:
Yes, Every day, and one thing He never does is change what He has said.

God does not speak directly to anyone, except his messengers(angels) and prophets. If you are in that category, then great!

Hebrews 1:1 , 2
1. In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
2. but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.

okosunehis:
We all need to understand this; no matter how perfect the law of God is, there is a high chance it will always be translated imperfectly because the person relating the message has his limitations; the prophets and the apostles only received the spirit of God in "part". The only messenger that received the Holy Spirit in full is Jesus Christ.

Kobojunkie:
WHAT? shocked shocked shocked (Me... lol... calm down!)

See what St. Paul (who was greater than Moses - Matthew 11:11) said in 1 Cor. 13:9, 12
9. For we know in part and we prophesy in part
12. For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

The only messenger of God who was given the spirit in full measure is Jesus Christ the Messiah - John 3:34
34. For the one whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God gives the Spirit without limit.

The only person that can speak on behalf of God perfectly is Jesus Christ, the Son of God. Every other messenger - prophet or apostle, can do their best in translating the message received via the Holy Spirit, by their level of understanding and their communicative skills. A prophet like Daniel even admitted to receiving messages from God which he did not understand; but he wrote them anyways. St. Paul was an apostle of Christ that was already well learned before his conversion. His level of education and exposure aided his ministry greatly, which we all benefit from today.

Kobojunkie:
The law of Moses were commandments from God Himself. God never said there was an option to cherry-pick His commandments, so of course, anyone who falls short will be condemned by the law.

Again, though every prophet speaks on behalf of "God Himself", that does not mean their message is perfectly transmitted. God's laws are perfect and timeless; that you cannot say for the Mosaic laws. It is because of the immeasurable amount of the spirit in Christ, that is why he related God's laws perfectly, suitable for humanity of all times and generations. It is one of the reasons Christ's teachings are as relevant today as they were 2,000 years ago, which makes him the most marketable (and sadly, most adulterated) religious brand even in these times.

Kobojunkie:
Jesus Christ, the new covenant, is a better covenant because it is bought with the blood of the lamb of God Himself for our sake, so the yoke is easy and the burden it places on us is light when compared to the old covenant. And just as Jesus said that you do not put new wine into an old wineskin

Indeed Christ is the new covenant and is better. The old was good but the new is better and lighter. The sacrificial ransom of Christ is important because it changes the order and channel of our worship to our Almighty Maker. Under Moses, offerings, vows, tithes, etc. were all offered to God through the blood of sacrificed animals. Under Christ, we are no longer bound to the sacrifice of animals (as performed then by the priests), which was never powerful enough to redeem us anyways. The Lamb of God has made the "once for all" sacrifice and all of God's worshipers, otherwise called Christians, are to render worship, praise, offerings, vows, tithes, etc., through Jesus Christ. That is the new order.

Kobojunkie:
so it is that should you choose to adopt the new covenant, you do not make it better by keeping one foot in the old covenant , you only ruin the new wine that way for yourself.

Sorry but I think you're the one with one foot in the old covenant. If you do not appreciate the ascendancy of the spirit over the letters, then you are still bound by the "balls and chains" of the old covenant letters. If you claim that YESHUA, the Son of God, is subject to the TORAH, which was transmitted to man by a mere prophet, then you are very much in caught up in the old covenant.

Even you have admitted that an ordinance as important as circumcision is not relevant to the new covenant. This also applies to the hitherto strict law of the Sabbath day. It was even one of the 10 commandments issued and the Scribes and Pharisees seriously held Christ's nonchalance to it's tenets against him and his disciples. What about the punishment that should have been meted out to the adulterer (Leviticus 20:10) which Christ tactfully saved her from? Are Christians bound by the old covenant which says that we must not mix different types of fabric in our clothing? or the law against inter-cropping?

In Matthew 5:37-48, Christ took out time to address some of the inadequacies of the old covenant vis a vis adultery, divorce, oaths, vengeance and love.

The fulfillment of the Law is Love - Romans 13:8-10

8. Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law.
9. The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,”[a] and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”
10. Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

That is why an analytical review of how Christ modified the laws, would make one appreciate it was all based on the commandments of love, which Christ also elevated to be the greatest. The spirit of the tithe laws are, as a demonstration of our love to God and his servants, to make provision for church/temple workers and for the financially challenged in the society; also encouraging communal activities of charity. These are as relevant today as they were in the times of Moses and Aaron. The letters of the Mosaic instruction of paying tithes are no longer relevant. What is relevant today is the spirit of it. It would indeed by paradoxical to imagine that the same Christ that encouraged people to pay their taxes, would discourage or disannul the payment of tithes. Tithes are just a Jewish application of similar taxation systems by other governments.

You will do well to read Romans chapters 7, 8, 9 and 10! They will help to put all (or most of) my points into context. I will also find time to watch the video you shared earlier. Let's try and help each other with relevant scriptural references to drive our points home as we marshal them. Bless up brother!

okosunehis:
God does not speak directly to anyone, except his messengers(angels) and prophets. If you are in that category, then great!

Where do you get that God does not speak directly to anyone except angels?

okosunehis:
Hebrews 1:1 , 2
1. In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
2. but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.

Again you misconstrue the meaning in Paul's message.

okosunehis:
See what St. Paul (who was greater than Moses - Matthew 11:11) said in 1 Cor. 13:9, 12
9. For we know in part and we prophesy in part
12. For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

Wait a minute, where do you get that Paul was greater than Moses?

okosunehis:
The only messenger of God who was given the spirit in full measure is Jesus Christ the Messiah - John 3:34
34. For the one whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God gives the Spirit without limit.

What?

okosunehis:
The only person that can speak on behalf of God perfectly is Jesus Christ, the Son of God. Every other messenger - prophet or apostle, can do their best in translating the message received via the Holy Spirit, by their level of understanding and their communicative skills. A prophet like Daniel even admitted to receiving messages from God which he did not understand; but he wrote them anyways. St. Paul was an apostle of Christ that was already well learned before his conversion. His level of education and exposure aided his ministry greatly, which we all benefit from today.

What?

okosunehis:
Tithe means one-tenth.[b] The Mosaic law of tithes is not what Abraham performed, of course that came way after. [/b]Abraham gave Melchizedek a tenth of his battle spoils. That is the first example of tithing in the Bible and St. Paul corroborated this in Hebrews 7:4-6 (shared below)

4 Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils.

5 And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:

6 But he whose descent is not counted from them received tithes of Abraham, and blessed him that had the promises.

The Mosaic law of tithes

Kobojunkie:
Where did Christ say "do not neglect it"?
How and where did Abraham exemplify this?
How can Abraham be our natural father when we are called gentiles here, not jews?

Oga KoboJ, read your bible more and don't read it like sign post or recharge cards.

Mathew 23:23 is clear enough. Jesus stressed that some matters are weightier than tithes but all should be adhered to without dropping any completely. It is more of indirectly endorsing tithe while setting a scale of preference for those four items.



Also Christ has broken the barrier between the Jews and the gentiles. He is lord of all who come to him and not lord of some who cone to him. So Abraham's bloodline is of negligible relevance here.

CodeTemplar:
Oga KoboJ, read your bible more and don't read it like sign post or recharge cards.

Mathew 23:23 is clear enough. Jesus stressed that some matters are weightier than tithes but all should be adhered to without dropping any completely. It is more of indirectly endorsing tithe while setting a scale of preference for those four items.

The verse in question referred to Pharisees(Jewish teachers of the old covenant), who were known hypocrites as far as there adherence to the letter of the very law for which they are honored. And you say that verse has what to say about the new covenant that is Jesus Christ?
Did Jesus address the Pharisees as his followers? Or the followers of the old covenant which they openly flouted?

Matthew 23 vs 23-24
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23. “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cumin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness. These you ought to have done, without neglecting the others.
24. You blind guides, straining out a gnat and swallowing a camel!

CodeTemplar:
Also Christ has broken the barrier between the Jews and the gentiles. He is lord of all who come to him and not lord of some who cone to him. So Abraham's bloodline is of negligible relevance here.

Are you saying Christ tampered with the letter of the old Covenant, somehow bringing down the barrier between the Jews and the gentiles? Did the Jews know of this?

Kobojunkie:
The verse in question referred to Pharisees(Jewish teachers of the old covenant), who were known hypocrites as far as there adherence to the letter of the very law for which they are honored. And you say that verse has what to say about the new covenant that is Jesus Christ?
Did Jesus address the Pharisees as his followers? Or the followers of the old covenant which they openly flouted?

Are you saying Christ tampered with the letter of the old Covenant, somehow bringing down the barrier between the Jews and the gentiles? Did the Jews know of this?

Are you saying MESSIAH openly flouted the Old testemant because I'm aware of that Christian false doctrine?

Is that what you are referring to by the bolded?

donnie:
Are you saying openly flouted the Old testemant because I'm aware of that Christian false doctrine?

Is that what you are referring to by the bolded?

It was about the Pharisees who openly flouted the old covenant laws, not Christians.

Kobojunkie:
The verse in question referred to Pharisees(Jewish teachers of the old covenant), who were known hypocrites as far as there adherence to the letter of the very law for which they are honored. And you say that verse has what to say about the new covenant that is Jesus Christ?
Did Jesus address the Pharisees as his followers? Or the followers of the old covenant which they openly flouted?



Are you saying Christ tampered with the letter of the old Covenant, somehow bringing down the barrier between the Jews and the gentiles? Did the Jews know of this?

You are clearly trying too hard to win an argument more than being enlightened. If we say Jesus was speaking to certain characters alone then all through the bible, messages were contextual in the sense that they were addressed to some persons. Take the ten commandments for example, "Thou shall not kill" doesn't apply to Jews alone.
"Though shall not steal" applies to all too. It will be foolhardy to assume messages in the bible are private messages not meant for all. If that's true, then I see no reason why God will make his word the food for man's spirit and soul, because the messages contained therein will have been addressed to individuals alone and of private value.

Concerning the issue of Jews and Gentiles. Read Galatians 3:28.
"....There is neither Jew or Greek...for ye are all one in Christ Jesus..."

CodeTemplar:
You are clearly trying too hard to win an argument more than being enlightened. If we say Jesus was speaking to certain characters alone then all through the bible, messages were contextual in the sense that they were addressed to some persons. Take the ten commandments for example, "Thou shall not kill" doesn't apply to Jews alone.
"Though shall not steal" applies to all too. It will be foolhardy to assume messages in the bible are private messages not meant for all. If that's true, then I see no reason why God will make his word the food for man's spirit and soul, because the messages contained therein will have been addressed to individuals alone and of private value.

Concerning the issue of Jews and Gentiles. Read Galatians 3:28.
"....There is neither Jew or Greek...for ye are all one in Christ Jesus..."

You asked very important questions. ISRAELITE prophets wrote the scriptures addressing ISRAELITES. They prophesied to ISRAELITES. MESSIAH came for ISRAELITES and will come again to save ISRAELITES. Now all of a sudden, it has become a general message, and in most cases as being preached today, a gentile meesage??

Until true Israelites stop listening to gentile teachers who have nothing but disregard for the laws, statutes and Commandments of YAH, all you'll get from Christianity is a bundle of confusion.

okosunehis:
Essentially, the “man” that robs God, and indeed the nation, is not the one that failed to pay his tithe, but the one that corruptly steals what has been paid as tithes already, which he is duty-bound to have moved to the treasury (storehouse).

...And that is the reason they can easily turn Levites to Pastors; tithes or seeds to ca$h instead of crops and livestock; storehouses to treasury or bank accounts. Because gentiles have to find a way to adapt the scriptures that weren't meant for them to suit them and their appetites.

For the sake of those reading this, rather than seek ways to explain away such inconsistencies, if you are ISRAEL from beyond the rivers of Ethiopia /Sudan (Zephaniah 3:10) repent now, bacause for this reason YAH's judgements are coming upon the earth.

This tithe matter everytime


ladies and gentleman, check my signature jare.

CodeTemplar:
You are clearly trying too hard to win an argument more than being enlightened. If we say Jesus was speaking to certain characters alone then all through the bible, messages were contextual in the sense that they were addressed to some persons. Take the ten commandments for example, "Thou shall not kill" doesn't apply to Jews alone.

Again, in Jesus' time, the Pharisees were the teachers of the old covenant, and so when He spoke to them, he addressed them, not as Christians but as those who held to the old covenant.
Today, we have "Christians" who hold on to the old covenant(The old covenant is still alive to this day) and so those words/curses/woes apply to them as well who hold on to the old covenant.
The 10 commandments were a part of the 613 commandments/laws that make up the old covenant. The new covenant that Jesus brought for us did not need to include those 10 in its about 46 commandments to be a legit covenant. Obviously, it would not be new if all it did was repurpose much of the old.
God promised us a new covenant and that covenant i.e. yoke that is light, and burden that is easy) is through Jesus Christ.

CodeTemplar:
"Though shall not steal" applies to all too. It will be foolhardy to assume messages in the bible are private messages not meant for all. If that's true, then I see no reason why God will make his word the food for man's spirit and soul, because the messages contained therein will have been addressed to individuals alone and of private value.

I didn't assume any message in the Bible private --you did that all by yourself there. I simply responded to the question asked in reference to a verse. You went free-willy there with your mind.

CodeTemplar:
Concerning the issue of Jews and Gentiles. Read Galatians 3:28.
"....There is neither Jew or Greek...for ye are all one in Christ Jesus..."

Paul was referring there to those who have chosen to adopt the new covenant instead, and not those who clung to the old covenant ways. Only those who adopt the new covenant that is Jesus Christ (love Him, Jesus, by obeying His Commandments i.e. the new covenant). That should be obvious to even your person, right?

Kobojunkie:
Again, in Jesus' time, the Pharisees were the teachers of the old covenant, and so when He spoke to them, he addressed them, not as Christians but as those who held to the old covenant.
Today, we have "Christians" who hold on to the old covenant(The old covenant is still alive to this day) and so those words/curses/woes apply to them as well who hold on to the old covenant.

First, the so-called NEW covenant is actually a RENEWED Covenant. That's the correct Hebrew rendering- Chadash (Heb lexicon: 2318) meaning to renew, repair, restore.

In Jeremiah 31:31 we see YAH renewing, restoring, or refreshing (not replacing) his Covenant with his people.

Secondly, neither the old nor the so-called new covenanats were for gentiles. Both covenants were for Israel, so enough of those lies coming from gentiles/ ESAU/EDOM/Rome/Christianity.

What gentiles should do is humbly seek how they can be part of the covenanats YAH made with his people ISRAEL rather than try to set up their own standards from out of the blues. The laws of YAH are eternal and even in the kingdom we will keep the laws; so Christians can go and fabricate their own lawless kingdom for themselves.

Romans 9:4
They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises.

Kobojunkie:
The 10 commandments were a part of the 613 commandments/laws that make up the old covenant. The new covenant that Jesus brought for us did not need to include those 1o in its about 46 commandments to be a legit covenant. God promised us a new covenant and that covenant i.e. yoke that is light, and burden that is easy) is through Jesus Christ.

The Commandments of YAH were from the foundation of the world. Abraham, Noah, Enoch, even Cain and Abel knew the laws of YAH. They were taught in detail and written for Israel because they were YAH's chosen people.

And I have already corrected your OLD vs NEW testament error. You either change or continue the Christian lies.

Kobojunkie:
Paul was referring there to those who have chosen to adopt the new covenant instead, and not those who clung to the old covenant ways. Only those who adopt the new covenant that is Jesus Christ (love Him, Jesus, by obeying His Commandments i.e. the new covenant). That should be obvious to even your person, right?

Any love that produces sin and lawlessness is not the love of YAH but of self.

Paul was an Israelite and lived as one, keeping the laws, statutes and commandments or YAH. And by the way, he was an apostle to the gentiles. Hope you aren't one of those Israelites claiming to be gentiles because of your love for lawlessness. YAH knows all.

#AwakeOIsrael

donnie:
What gentiles should do is humbly seek how they can be part of the covenanats YAH made with his people ISRAEL rather than try to set up their own standards from out of the blues. The laws of YAH are eternal and even in the kingdom we will keep the laws; so Christians can go and fabricate their own lawless kingdom for themselves.

I am still at loss as to how you, a gentile, would suddenly convince yourself you are a jew, and why? These are the same people who God called a stiff-necked people from the beginnning.

Exodus 32 vs 9-10
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9. And the Lord said to Moses, “I have seen this people, and behold, it is a stiff-necked people.
10. Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may burn hot against them and I may consume them, in order that I may make a great nation of you.”

Is you are going to read from the book, at least consider the context in which you information you pull is presented.

Roman 9 vs 1-9
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1. I am in Christ and I am telling you the truth. I am not lying. And my conscience, ruled by the Holy Spirit, agrees that what I say now is true.
2. I have great sorrow and always feel much sadness
3. for my own people. They are my brothers and sisters, my earthly family. I wish I could help them. I would even have a curse on me and cut myself off from Christ if that would help them.
4. They are the people of Israel, God’s chosen children. They have the glory of God and the agreements he made between himself and his people. God gave them the Law of Moses, the Temple worship, and his promises.
5. They are the descendants of our great fathers, and they are the earthly family of the Messiah, who is God over all things. Praise him forever![a] Amen.

6. I don’t mean that God failed to keep his promise to the Jewish people. But only some of the people of Israel are really God’s people.
7. And only some of Abraham’s descendants are true children of Abraham. This is what God said to Abraham: “Your true descendants will be those who come through Isaac.”[c]
8. This means that not all of Abraham’s descendants are God’s true children. Abraham’s true children are those who become God’s children because of the promise he made to Abraham.
9. Here is what God said in that promise: “About this time next year I will come back, and Sarah will have a son.”[d]

Notice how Paul wasn't saying that all the covenants belong to Israel, and to israel alone?

donnie:
The Commandments of YAH were from the foundation of the world. Abraham, Noah, Enoch, even Cain and Abel knew the laws of YAH. They were taught in detail and written for Israel because they were YAH's chosen people.

Abraham, Noah, Cain, Abel, knew no laws of God except the knowledge of good of evil, which was revealed to all men through Adam, the one man through whom sin entered the world and into all men of the earth.

donnie:
And I have already corrected your OLD vs NEW testament error. You either change or continue the Christian lies.

You have done nothing of the such.

donnie:
Any love that produces sin and lawlessness is not the love of YAH but of self.

I doubt you would even know what your Love means as far as God is concerned.

donnie:
Paul was an Israelite and lived as one, keeping the laws, statutes and commandments or YAH. And by the way, he was an apostle to the gentiles. Hope you aren't one of those Israelites claiming to be gentiles because of your love for lawlessness. YAH knows all.
#AwakeOIsrael

Paul did no such thing, as he was quite clear in his letter to the Hebrews and in the verses you selected above that not all of Abraham's descendants are God's true children -- only some of the people of israel are really God's children.

Kobojunkie:
I am still at loss as to how you, a gentile, would suddenly convince yourself you are a jew, and why? These are the same people who God called a stiff-necked people from the beginnning.

You have tried to debunk my claims and failed. You can call yourself a gentile, I'm not. They're stiffnecked yet you Christians spend billions yearly on pilgrimages to fake Israel. You preach to your people to pray for and to bless fake Israel so they can be blessed. You send millions of dollars yearly to fake Israel. Foolish Christians don't even know that's the reason Trump pretends to support you. Now we tell you who true Israel is, you're disgusted, because they're black. Shame on you. What you refuse to recognize, you will be forced to. It's only a matter of time... litile time.

Kobojunkie:
Is you are going to read from the book, at least consider the context in which you information you pull is presented.

Why don't you present the correct context let's examine it. Must the context be whitewashed to be acceptable by you? The covenanats were to Israel period, and what you Christians try to arrange for yourselves is a fraud. Reason all holy things of YAH were thrown out and all abominations were added to your religion.

Kobojunkie:
Notice how Paul wasn't saying that all the covenants belong to Israel, and to israel alone?

So what was he saying? Kindly explain.

Kobojunkie:
Abraham, Noah, Cain, Abel, knew no laws of God except the knowledge of good of evil, which was revealed to all men through Adam, the one man through whom sin entered the world and into all men of the earth.

O Christianity will send many to their destruction.

Genesis 26:5
because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.

How did Abel know about the firstfruit offering to give it without knowing YAH's laws? (Genesis 4:4).

How did Noah know the difference between clean and unclean animals without knowing YAH's laws? (Genesis 7:2).

E shock you ba?

Kobojunkie:
You have done nothing of the such.
I doubt you would even know what your Love means as far as God is concerned.
Paul did no such thing, as he was quite clear in his letter to the Hebrews and in the verses you selected above that not all of Abraham's descendants are God's true children -- only some of the people of israel are really God's children.

Who doesnt know that not all Abraham's seed are of promise? Are not Ishmael and even Esau also Abraham's seed? ISRAEL is YAKUBI (Jacob) and they are the blessed seed.

I know you will not see that truth about the RENEWED testament. That's what Christianity does...it blinds you. My posts are to expose the lies of Christianity so the ELECT of Israel can see and turn from their wicked ways.

Acts 21:26
Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them.

Acts 18:18-21
[18]And Paul after this tarried there yet a good while, and then took his leave of the brethren, and sailed thence into Syria, and with him Priscilla and Aquila; having shorn his head in Cenchrea: for he had a vow.
[19]And he came to Ephesus, and left them there: but he himself entered into the synagogue, and reasoned with the Jews.
[20]When they desired him to tarry longer time with them, he consented not;
[21]But bade them farewell, saying, I must by all means keep this feast that cometh in Jerusalem: but I will return again unto you, if God will. And he sailed from Ephesus.

1 Corinthians 5:7-8
[7]Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
[8]Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

CodeTemplar:
Oga KoboJ, read your bible more and don't read it like sign post or recharge cards.

Mathew 23:23 is clear enough. Jesus stressed that some matters are weightier than tithes but all should be adhered to without dropping any completely. It is more of indirectly endorsing tithe while setting a scale of preference for those four items.



Also Christ has broken the barrier between the Jews and the gentiles. He is lord of all who come to him and not lord of some who cone to him. So Abraham's bloodline is of negligible relevance here.

Much thanks for your post. I actually thought Matt. 23:23 was simple enough for even a ten year old to understand. The problem is a lot of times, people are wont to accepting views that reinforce their already set beliefs and totally reject or resist anything contradictory. When I share stuff like this, it is mostly intended for the neutral mind, or at least someone that is open to learning.

The TORAH says, "thou shall not kill", but soldiers have a duty to kill, and a justifiable reason to! Every law has it's relevance. If one cannot understand the relevance and holds fanatically to the letters of the law, then that person is on the wrong path. When your child is a toddler, all you say is "Sit" or "Don't Sit"; you don't explain why until the child begins to gain reasoning abilities. The letters are a shadow of the spirit, the spirit is what gives life.

Tithes, like taxes, are for a reason. There is no need to get too scholarly with letters and history about it. If your "pastor" needs it from you, oblige him (by not neglecting), except of course you do not trust him. Be guided by the spirit, it is not a "do or die" affair.

okosunehis:
The problem is a lot of times, people are wont to accepting views that reinforce their already set beliefs and totally reject or resist anything contradictory. When I share stuff like this, it is mostly intended for the neutral mind, or at least someone that is open to learning.

What is written in Matthew 23 vs 23 is not about my view, or your view. There is one Truth,every other position about the lie that does not map right back to Truth is a Lie.

That verse was Jesus speaking to the Pharisees(the teachers of the Old Covenant Laws) admonishing them for picking and choosing which laws to obey and which laws to ignore, of the old Covenant.

okosunehis:
The TORAH says, "thou shall not kill", but soldiers have a duty to kill, and a justifiable reason to! Every law has it's relevance. If one cannot understand the relevance and holds fanatically to the letters of the law, then that person is on the wrong path. When your child is a toddler, all you say is "Sit" or "Don't Sit"; you don't explain why until the child begins to gain reasoning abilities. The letters are a shadow of the spirit, the spirit is what gives life.

Soldiers are not Children of God. They are soldiers who do work in service of nations of men. They do what they do in service in their master.

okosunehis:
Tithes, like taxes, are for a reason. There is no need to get too scholarly with letters and history about it. If your "pastor" needs it from you, oblige him (by not neglecting), except of course you do not trust him. Be guided by the spirit, it is not a "do or die" affair.

Oblige my pastor because my pastor is God over me? So, ignore what Jesus said... Obey your Pastor, that is your advice?

John 14 vs 23-24
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
23. Jesus answered, “All who love me will obey my teaching. [/b]My Father will love them. My Father and I will come to them and live with them.
[b] 24. But anyone who does not love me does not obey my teaching. This teaching that you hear is not really mine. It is from my Father who sent me.

Jesus has already made his stance clear on His commandments. You get to decide whether His commandments are worth anything to you in the end.

chinebu:
Jesus Christ came and died on the cross of Calvary for our sins and for reunification of man with God.
This sacrifice alone is enough. Accept Christ in your life and live like he did while on earth. We are Christians because we are supposed to live like Christ.
Whatever Christ did while on earth try to emulate him and leave the rest. Heaven at last. Tithe will not prevent you from going to heaven if don't pay. Prove me wrong if you disagree

Gbam!

okosunehis:
I quite agree with you. That is why I compared it with paying of taxes, though it is relatively more important. My whole point was Christ's instruction - "do not neglect it". That is different from "you must pay it or you will not be saved". It is a Jewish tradition we should emulate, for the right reasons, as exemplified by Abraham, the natural father of the Christian faith.

There is no temple, you're not in Israel, what you're tithing from is not agro-based. On every account this obligatory or imposed ecclesiastical tithing monitised, specifically converted into and/or expressed in the form of currency is null and void.

Also the moment the curtain in the temple got torn apart and even as soon after the temple got destroyed by the Romans in 70 AD, any sense of duty to uphold "do not neglect it" went down the drain. The resurrection of Jesus and the new world order of the law of liberty superceded the obligation of tithing anyway.

Kobojunkie:
Where did Christ say "do not neglect it"?

"What sorrow awaits you teachers of religious law and you Pharisees. Hypocrites!
For you are careful to tithe even the tiniest income from your herb gardens,
but you ignore the more important aspects of the law—justice, mercy, and faith.
You should tithe, yes, but do not neglect the more important things."
- Matthew 23:23

Kobojunkie:
How and where did Abraham exemplify this?

Tithing originated from a Mesopotamia practice that prevailed pre and post the Abraham's living days.

It is a well known historical and documentated fact that Abram tithed in line with the prevailing Mesopotamia custom to tithe following returning fro battle/war victorious. Artifacts shows and testifies to heathens practice of tithing. Like few other things, tithing was a status quo, same as child sacrifices and/or ritualistic killing of children with Abraham then.

So Abraham paid tithe after winning a fighting battle over four kings. The practice and onus was upon the victor of such or any battle/war to give a tenth of the spoils of war to a reputable priest cum ruler of his/her choice. Abraham decided that Melchizedek is his choice, so paid the tenth/tithe to him, received a blessing, and the rest of the story is now history.

Melchizedek was a ruler cum priest of the Most God, but didn't know God same way Abraham did or have the same kind of relationship Abraham had with God. This is evidenced on how Abraham corrected Melchizedek after he misaddressed God.

The tithing Abraham did was respecting custom. The tithing the Israelites did was an obligation. The tithe was demanded by God, based on a vow Jacob made to Him that he will give tithe on everything God blesses him with.

Abraham, only went to battle once, and so paid tithe only the once time then, aside that, most important his sort of tithing is different to the Israelites' tithing

Kobojunkie:
How can Abraham be our natural father when we are called gentiles here, not jews?

"²⁸There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
²⁹And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to promise."
- Galatians 3:28-29

donnie:
Problems come when we misuse the words priest, levite, temple etc. And I find that this is deliberate.

All priests are Levites, but not all Levites are priests. Zechariah was a priest, but his son, John the Baptist, of course a Levite, was a prophet, but not a priest.

Temple, actually would mean, the inner court, the holy place and then further in, the "Holy of Holies". The temple grounds would be made up of the outer courts, the beautiful gate or eastern gate.

Kobojunkie:
Again, in Jesus' time, the Pharisees were the teachers of the old covenant, and so when He spoke to them, he addressed them, not as Christians but as those who held to the old covenant.
Today, we have "Christians" who hold on to the old covenant (The old covenant is still alive to this day) and so those words/curses/woes apply to them as well who hold on to the old covenant.

The words/curses/woes apply to any who hold on to the old covenant. The words/curses/woes are nullified and rendered impotent for those who hold on to and abide by the principles or laws of the new covenant

donnie:
First, the so-called NEW covenant is actually a RENEWED Covenant. That's the correct Hebrew rendering- Chadash (Heb lexicon: 2318) meaning to renew, repair, restore.

In Jeremiah 31:31 we see YAH renewing, restoring, or refreshing (not replacing) his Covenant with his people.

The Hebrew language uses the word "chadash" as a noun and equally uses the same "chadash" word, as an adjective.

When "chadash" is used as a noun, the intent, meaning and translation, means new, new thing, new things, something new or even fresh. When used as an adjective, "chadash" the intent, meaning and translation, then turn, to mean, to renew, renewed, repair, restore, restored and most important, in this context, its used in a verb sense (i.e. as in meaning its an action, activity or doing)

In Jeremiah 31:31, we see YAH, use "chadash," as noun and not a verb. This means that, YAH was describing the covenant as being fresh, something new. In effect, it is a new covenant, its brand new. No, not renewing and certainly not restoring. Of course, its replaced. It is replaced with a brand new covenant.

CodeTemplar:
Oga KoboJ, read your bible more and don't read it like sign post or recharge cards.

Mathew 23:23 is clear enough. Jesus stressed that some matters are weightier than tithes but all should be adhered to without dropping any completely. It is more of indirectly endorsing tithe while setting a scale of preference for those four items.

Also Christ has broken the barrier between the Jews and the gentiles. He is Lord of all who come to him and not Lord of some who come to Him. So Abraham's bloodline is of negligible relevance here.

Anybody trying to enforce the Mathew 23:23 obligation of tithing is ignorant of the changing times of what Jesus did on Calvary, doesn't understand the significance of when the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom and so they haven't changed with the times along with others.

If not for father Abraham, seeing today and so with faith believed God, the salvation we enjoy might not have readily forth come

okosunehis:
Much thanks for your post. I actually thought Matt. 23:23 was simple enough for even a ten year old to understand. The problem is a lot of times, people are wont to accepting views that reinforce their already set beliefs and totally reject or resist anything contradictory. When I share stuff like this, it is mostly intended for the neutral mind, or at least someone that is open to learning.

The TORAH says, "thou shall not kill", but soldiers have a duty to kill, and a justifiable reason to! Every law has it's relevance. If one cannot understand the relevance and holds fanatically to the letters of the law, then that person is on the wrong path. When your child is a toddler, all you say is "Sit" or "Don't Sit"; you don't explain why until the child begins to gain reasoning abilities. The letters are a shadow of the spirit, the spirit is what gives life.

The TORAH, correctly says, "thou shall not MURDER" Not "thou shall not kill" There is a difference between kill and murder.

okosunehis:
Tithes, like taxes, are for a reason. There is no need to get too scholarly with letters and history about it. If your "pastor" needs it from you, oblige him (by not neglecting), except of course you do not trust him. Be guided by the spirit, it is not a "do or die" affair.

Tithe was for the Levites because they did not have a land inheritance in Israel unlike the other tribes had. Besides, just as I earlier advanced, God was exercising His right of demanding for a tenth of the agricultural produce of the land, Isreal, because this is what Israel, the man vowed he will give God based on him being blessed by God in the land, and we have it that over 400 years later Israel the man arrived as Israel, the Nation, in Canaan, the Promised Land with not just, wealth, riches and gold from Egypt, but arrived in a land full of milk and honey. By divine providence, the outstanding vow, the solemn promise made by Jacob aka Israel, the man, was due and/or matured enough to ask for by God from Israel, now, the Nation. It is God's property, and so He decided, that the tithes should be handed over to tribe of Levite with other instructions on how to administer it.

Kobojunkie:
What is written in Matthew 23 vs 23 is not about my view, or your view. There is one Truth, every other position about the lie that does not map right back to Truth is a Lie.

That verse was Jesus speaking to the Pharisees (the teachers of the Old Covenant Laws) admonishing them for picking and choosing which laws to obey and which laws to ignore, of the old Covenant.

Soldiers are not Children of God. They are soldiers who do work in service of nations of men. They do what they do in service in their master.

Oblige my pastor because my pastor is God over me? So, ignore what Jesus said... Obey your Pastor, that is your advice?

Jesus has already made his stance clear on His commandments. You get to decide whether His commandments are worth anything to you in the end.

At that time or dispensation, it was necessary to pay tithe, and Jesus agreed to that. However, what Jesus with Matthew 23:23, wasn't pleased about, was people neglecting the religion of carrying out justice, mercy, and faith. As far as Jesus was concerned, justice, mercy, and faith are more important than paying tithing and even doing it up to extent of tithing on mundane agricultural spices plants like mint, dill and cumin. What about watching out for marginalised, the hungry, the downtrodden, the abuse, the incarcerated in prisons, the sick, homeless, the falsely accused, rape victims, why neglect positive convictions, right religious beliefs et cetera.

Jesus' primary focus and concern wasn't about tithing, he actually was talking about misplaced priorities and even notably cursed the teachers of the law and Pharisees for putting paying of tithe in the fore front and ahead of other thing are greater in importance than tithing is.

okosunehis:
I quite agree with you. That is why I compared it with paying of taxes, though it is relatively more important. My whole point was Christ's instruction - "do not neglect it". That is different from "you must pay it or you will not be saved". It is a Jewish tradition we should emulate, for the right reasons, as exemplified by Abraham, the natural father of the Christian faith.

Abraham gave tithe of war not on his monthly salary/income.
Christ is the reason we are called Christians.... there is no account in the Bible where Christ paid tithe....
Majority of today's pastors are so focused on tithe (money/materialism) than building morals into the brethren/society...
It's because we have left the most important thing and focus on the less important things according to Mathew 23:23b, this is the reason the church has failed the society...
You cannot bribe God... Giving your monthly salary to a man of God without keeping/obeying the commandment of God is only enriching the Pastorprenours and encouraging them to build more expensive schools that your children cannot attend, build estates that mostly the thiefing politicians and even unbelievers can afford, buy private jets, live in luxuries etc .....while you are getting poorer hence the high rate of crime in our society despite churches everywhere

Kobojunkie:
What is written in Matthew 23 vs 23 is not about my view, or your view. There is one Truth,every other position about the lie that does not map right back to Truth is a Lie.

That verse was Jesus speaking to the Pharisees(the teachers of the Old Covenant Laws) admonishing them for picking and choosing which laws to obey and which laws to ignore, of the old Covenant.

True, Jesus was rebuking the Pharisees and telling them how to observe the law. While the upbraiding was specifically to the Pharisees, the standard of keeping the laws, which was the crux of his admonition, is applicable to all. It's like correcting a child by saying, "Why do you sweep the dirt under the carpet? You are supposed to sweep it to a corner, and pack." While the criticism does not apply to everybody, the advice does.

Kobojunkie:
Soldiers are not Children of God. They are soldiers who do work in service of nations of men. They do what they do in service in their master.

My point is there are grounds on which killing is permissible, which does not discountenance the law; hence applying the spirit over the letters.

Kobojunkie:
Oblige my pastor because my pastor is God over me? So, ignore what Jesus said... Obey your Pastor, that is your advice?

I wonder where I ever suggested obeying your pastor over Christ. If you read my original post, I already emphasized the need to hold the words of Christ above all others.

The spirit, again, is my emphasis. It is a humanistic inclination that when someone renders a service that you benefit from, you get to pay and even tip, as the spirit leads. When you see a working government, you are encouraged to pay taxes, regardless of the stipulations and penalties of the law. That is why performing artists/live bands get doles of cash from guests who "bless" them for thrilling the crowd, not minding that they are performing a service they must have been paid for by the celebrant.

If you wake up every Sunday morning and voluntarily join a church, and after a couple of hours, feel some spiritual upliftment from the preachings of the pastor, also enjoying the comforts (or discomforts) and ambience of the whole packaged environment, you are a beneficiary of a system that is funded by persons like you, or started like you. Even motivational speakers get paid.

There is a spirit behind the paying of tithes. The ultimate commandment is love. Understand it and apply the love that motivates you to bless whoever has ministered to you, to whatever situation you find yourself.

Kobojunkie:
Jesus has already made his stance clear on His commandments. You get to decide whether His commandments are worth anything to you in the end.

And his stance on tithing was pretty straightforward - don't neglect it.

desiredhome:
Abraham gave tithe of war not on his monthly salary/income.
Christ is the reason we are called Christians.... there is no account in the Bible where Christ paid tithe....
Majority of today's pastors are so focused on tithe (money/materialism) than building morals into the brethren/society...
It's because we have left the most important thing and focus on the less important things according to Mathew 23:23b, this is the reason the church has failed the society...
You cannot bribe God... Giving your monthly salary to a man of God without keeping/obeying the commandment of God is only enriching the Pastorprenours and encouraging them to build more expensive schools that your children cannot attend, build estates that mostly the thiefing politicians and even unbelievers can afford, buy private jets, live in luxuries etc .....while you are getting poorer hence the high rate of crime in our society despite churches everywhere

I may be wrong, but I can bet you did not read the original post of this thread, which I shared.

Abraham only performed an example of what would be made an obligation under the nation of Israel. We are not bound by the dictates of the Mosaic law on tithing, but it remains a commendable Christian practice. Hence Christ advised that we should not leave it "undone".

A "true Christian" will not, because of the pastors that have abused the law and even the spirit of paying tithes, deny the "men of God" who actually need it. Like I have said, everyone should be led by the spirit. Even if you obey the letters, and your spirit feels otherwise, your obedience is for nothing.

I'll leave you with the words of St. Paul in 1 Corinthians 9

7. Who serves as a soldier at his own expense? Who plants a vineyard and does not eat its grapes? Who tends a flock and does not drink the milk? 8. Do I say this merely on human authority? Doesn’t the Law say the same thing?
11. If we have sown spiritual seed among you, is it too much if we reap a material harvest from you?
12. If others have this right of support from you, shouldn’t we have it all the more?
13. Don’t you know that those who serve in the temple get their food from the temple, and that those who serve at the altar share in what is offered on the altar?
14. In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel.

MuttleyLaff:
Anybody trying to enforce the Mathew 23:23 obligation of tithing is ignorant of the changing times of what Jesus did on Calvary, doesn't understand the significance of when the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom and so they haven't changed with the times along with others.

If not for father Abraham, seeing today and so with faith believed God, the salvation we enjoy might not have readily forth come.

This is not the age of enforcing any Mosaic law that was scripted on tablets, but the age where God's laws are written in our hearts, we understand their relevance and abide willingly by them; no coercion.

The significance of the splitting of the robe separating the altar from the rest of the temple is the fact that much of what was originally done there - the blood sacrificing of animals, was no longer required. That brought an end to the Levitical/Aaronic priesthood, which was the old order. The blood-letting of animals was not the only activity that took place in the temple. Like the laws, Christ never said he was coming to abolish the temple but to rebuild it. Christ says that now, where two or three gathered in his name, he, the high priest would be there with them - "He has a permanent priesthood. Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.

MuttleyLaff:
The TORAH, correctly says, "thou shall not MURDER" Not "thou shall not kill" There is a difference between kill and murder.

Borrowing from your script; to murder is to kill, but to kill is not to murder. Sometimes killing is even considered in the passive sense. When we go beyond the letters of killing, we transcend into the spirit of it and begin to consider terms such as murder, man-slaughter, self-defense, suicide, etc., which would then elaborate on how and why the killing occurred.

MuttleyLaff:
Tithe was for the Levites because they did not have a land inheritance in Israel unlike the other tribes had. Besides, just as I earlier advanced, God was exercising His right of demanding for a tenth of the agricultural produce of the land, Isreal, because this is what Israel, the man vowed he will give God based on him being blessed by God in the land, and we have it that over 400 years later Israel the man arrived as Israel, the Nation, in Canaan, the Promised Land with not just, wealth, riches and gold from Egypt, but arrived in a land full of milk and honey. By divine providence, the outstanding vow, the solemn promise made by Jacob aka Israel, the man, was due and/or matured enough to ask for by God from Israel, now, the Nation. It is God's property, and so He decided, that the tithes should be handed over to tribe of Levite with other instructions on how to administer it.

Much of this I concur with, just adding that Abraham did not tithe under compulsion and that tithing preceeds and succeeds Levitical tithing.

MuttleyLaff:
At that time or dispensation, it was necessary to pay tithe, and Jesus agreed to that. However, what Jesus with Matthew 23:23, wasn't pleased about, was people neglecting the religion of carrying out justice, mercy, and faith. As far as Jesus was concerned, justice, mercy, and faith are more important than paying tithing and even doing it up to extent of tithing on mundane agricultural spices plants like mint, dill and cumin. What about watching out for marginalised, the hungry, the downtrodden, the abuse, the incarcerated in prisons, the sick, homeless, the falsely accused, rape victims, why neglect positive convictions, right religious beliefs et cetera.

We are no longer bound to tithe to those who minister to us under the priesthood of Aaron. Rather, the practice of tithing, which is not to be left undone, should now be for those who minister to us under the priesthood of Jesus Christ.

MuttleyLaff:
Jesus' primary focus and concern wasn't about tithing, he actually was talking about misplaced priorities and even notably cursed the teachers of the law and Pharisees for putting paying of tithe in the fore front and ahead of other thing are greater in importance than tithing is.

Agreed Jesus' focus was not on tithes, but that does not take any relevance away from his position on payment of tithes.

okosunehis:
This is not the age of enforcing any Mosaic law that was scripted on tablets, but the age where God's laws are written in our hearts, we understand their relevance and abide willingly by them; no coercion

"And once more all the people of Judah began bringing their tithes of grain, new wine, and olive oil to the Temple storerooms."
- Nehemiah 13:12

So far you concede that since there is no temple, you're not in Israel, that what you're tithing from, is not agro-based, as how done, when tithing was restored, as seen in Nehemiah 13:12 above, then any now practised, obligatory or imposed ecclesiastical tithing, monitised, specifically converted into and/or expressed in the form of currency, is null and void, then no wahala.

Ecclesiastical tithing, coming from a position of obligation or imposition, is unconstitutional in the realms of affairs of the New Covenant.

okosunehis:
The significance of the splitting of the robe separating the altar from the rest of the temple is the fact that much of what was originally done there - the blood sacrificing of animals, was no longer required. That brought an end to the Levitical/Aaronic priesthood, which was the old order. The blood-letting of animals was not the only activity that took place in the temple. Like the laws, Christ never said he was coming to abolish the temple but to rebuild it. Christ says that now, where two or three gathered in his name, he, the high priest would be there with them - "He has a permanent priesthood. Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.

[img]https://s3/images/ObamaMuttley.gif[/img]

The significance of the splitting of the robe separating the altar from the rest of the temple, is the fact that it happened, immediately after Jesus uttered "It is finished" meaning that what He came to do on earth has been accomplished and signifying that access has now been procured for us t directly access and personally approach God, not at all much like was originally done there, when a human high priest and Levites were required spiritual contact with God was required or needed

okosunehis:
Borrowing from your script; to murder is to kill, but to kill is not to murder. Sometimes killing is even considered in the passive sense. When we go beyond the letters of killing, we transcend into the spirit of it and begin to consider terms such as murder, man-slaughter, self-defense, suicide, etc., which would then elaborate on how and why the killing occurred.

It is not my script. I was drawing your attention to your erroneous use of KILL, rather than correctly using MURDER, which is whats in the original text.

okosunehis:
Much of this I concur with, just adding that Abraham did not tithe under compulsion and that tithing preceeds and succeeds Levitical tithing.

I already advanced that, tithing originated from a Mesopotamia practice that prevailed pre and post the Abraham's living days, so yes, affirmative, that tithing precedes and succeeds Levitical tithing.

Now, Abraham by custom was forced to give tithe upon spoils of war. The Israelites, by the Levitical priesthood, were forced by God to give tithe to the Levite et al. The sort of tithing Abraham did was tithe on anything goes spoils of war. The sort of tithing done by the Israelites were specifically restricted by God to agricultural products/produce.

Now, it is freewill giving, that in the New Covenant is what succeeds Levitical tithing. It is giving without being forced, coerced, put pressure upon to give. It is giving that is not obtained from using threats or scare tactics that if the giving is not done then bad things, misfortune, sickness, bad luck et cetera would happen

okosunehis:
We are no longer bound to tithe to those who minister to us under the priesthood of Aaron. Rather, the practice of tithing, which is not to be left undone, should now be for those who minister to us under the priesthood of Jesus Christ.

Under the New Covenant, there is no fixed figure or stipulated number, like for example to be religiously stamping out 10%. Under the dispensation of the New Covenant, your giving is to be spirit led. For example, you might decide to give 10% today, next time it might be 20%, another time, it could be 60%, following time, it could dip to 5%, even sometimes it might be 0%.

Giving has nothing to do with being mechanical, but has a lot to do with spontaneity. Levitical tithing and/or practised, coerced, obligatory or imposed ecclesiastical tithing, monetised is planned and not spontaneous or necessarily spirit led

okosunehis:
Agreed Jesus' focus was not on tithes, but that does not take any relevance away from his position on payment of tithes.

"⁶Remember this: Whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and whoever sows generously will also reap generously.
⁷Each one should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not out of regret or compulsion. For God loves a cheerful giver.
⁸And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that in all things, at all times, having all that you need, you will abound in every good work"
- 2 Corinthians 9:6-8

It does take all the relevance away from His position on payment of tithes, especially if tithing, has the relics and hang-ups of the old guard. The order of the day, now is 2 Corinthians 9:7. It doesnt specify any number like say 10% for example

MuttleyLaff:
"And once more all the people of Judah began bringing their tithes of grain, new wine, and olive oil to the Temple storerooms."
- Nehemiah 13:12

So far you concede that since there is no temple, you're not in Israel, that what you're tithing from, is not agro-based, as how done, when tithing was restored, as seen in Nehemiah 13:12 above, then any now practised, obligatory or imposed ecclesiastical tithing, monitised, specifically converted into and/or expressed in the form of currency, is null and void, then no wahala.

Ecclesiastical tithing, coming from a position of obligation or imposition, is unconstitutional in the realms of affairs of the New Covenant.

There is no constitution (written law) guiding the New Covenant. The new order is of the spirit and not the letters. Even in the old order, there was no spelt out punishment for not paying tithes.

Christ said to destroy the temple and he would rebuild it in three days, referring to the fact that he would be resurrected after three days. Of course the Jews did not understand him. What he meant was that the old order of temple worship was to cease, as the new order was to begin; mandating all God's worshipers to (re)direct their worship, through him, the Messiah. This renders the veiled altar irrelevant as the sacrificing of animals was no longer needed. That does not mean temple worship ceases. The Levites who were temple workers and law keepers were mainly priests (not just the high priest), choristers and guards. These are all still relevant in today's organized settings for God's worship, through Christ the High Priest, with church workers who see to the functioning of the group. Look at the spirit of the law and do not be caught up with the letters!

MuttleyLaff:
The significance of the splitting of the robe separating the altar from the rest of the temple, is the fact that it happened, immediately after Jesus uttered "It is finished" meaning that what He came to do on earth has been accomplished and signifying that access has now been procured for us t directly access and personally approach God, not at all much like was originally done there, when a human high priest and Levites were required spiritual contact with God was required or needed

Yes, the splitting of the robe and the timing of it was significant. As I am sure you have sensed already, we agree about some issues and not quite about others. I try to point them out so we do not make this about endless contestations; let's know where we disagree.

Even with the abolition of the old order and the establishment of the New Covenant, we still cannot "directly access and personally approach God". Our worship now should be directed through Jesus Christ, who is "the way, the truth and the life" and through whom we are to "come" to the Father. This was not so in the old order.

MuttleyLaff:
It is not my script. I was drawing your attention to your erroneous use of KILL, rather than correctly using MURDER, which is whats in the original text.

"Borrowing from your script" meant here was in style, where you wrote - All priests are Levites, but not all Levites are priests.

There is nothing erroneous about the use of the word KILL. That the more exact word is MURDER is common knowledge. This is not an area where we disagree about the fundamentals.

MuttleyLaff:
I already advanced that, tithing originated from a Mesopotamia practice that prevailed pre and post the Abraham's living days, so yes, affirmative, that tithing precedes and succeeds Levitical tithing.

Now, Abraham by custom was forced to give tithe upon spoils of war. The Israelites, by the Levitical priesthood, were forced by God to give tithe to the Levite et al. The sort of tithing Abraham did was tithe on anything goes spoils of war. The sort of tithing done by the Israelites were specifically restricted by God to agricultural products/produce.

Now, it is freewill giving, that in the New Covenant is what succeeds Levitical tithing. It is giving without being forced, coerced, put pressure upon to give. It is giving that is not obtained from using threats or scare tactics that if the giving is not done then bad things, misfortune, sickness, bad luck et cetera would happen

Under the New Covenant, there is no fixed figure or stipulated number, like for example to be religiously stamping out 10%. Under the dispensation of the New Covenant, your giving is to be spirit led. For example, you might decide to give 10% today, next time it might be 20%, another time, it could be 60%, following time, it could dip to 5%, even sometimes it might be 0%.

Giving has nothing to do with being mechanical, but has a lot to do with spontaneity. Levitical tithing and/or practised, coerced, obligatory or imposed ecclesiastical tithing, monetised is planned and not spontaneous or necessarily spirit led

"⁶Remember this: Whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and whoever sows generously will also reap generously.
⁷Each one should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not out of regret or compulsion. For God loves a cheerful giver.
⁸And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that in all things, at all times, having all that you need, you will abound in every good work"
- 2 Corinthians 9:6-8

If we agree that tithing succeeds the Levitical priesthood, then I really do not see what our argument is about. As we know, the word "tithe" does not mean randomized contribution to the Levites. It is a "tenth" of the whole, not 20% or 50%, it was a significant example. Abraham was not "forced to give tithes" by anybody. He respected the custom (which is still my emphasis for Christians, respect the custom, "is not by force" and even rejected the offer of giving up just a tenth of the captives and not all the war spoils, including the goods.

Tithes were also meant for temple workers who minister to God on behalf of the people and for the financially challenged in the society. Is this not the role church workers play today? Please look at the spirit, the relevance of the law and don't get lost in the letters. THE LETTERS KILL but THE SPIRIT QUICKENS!

MuttleyLaff:
It does take all the relevance away from His position on payment of tithes, especially if tithing, has the relics and hang-ups of the old guard. The order of the day, now is 2 Corinthians 9:7. It doesnt specify any number like say 10% for example

The advice of Christ remains relevant, as much today as it was in those days. That is why Christ is SO IMPORTANT. He is a priest and a preacher for all ages. Hence St. Paul referenced that technically speaking, even the Levites, being descendants of Abraham, had paid tithes through the order of Melchizedek, whom Christ represents. (Hebrews 7:4-18) So while the Levites are no longer relevant, as there were not when Abraham gave tithes, the practice is still relevant.

While the law of tithing encourages you to give a tenth to the church, it also discourages giving more than giving a tenth for the basic necessities of the church. You cannot be giving all your wealth to your pastor, encouraging him to live flamboyantly off your hardwork. If you feel like giving all you have, use it for charity and not for tithes!

This whole effort is not to rehash the Mosaic law on Levitical tithing; it is just an attempt to throw some light on the issue and by so doing, remind Christians that the practice of tithing is still relevant in these times. It is a demonstration of LOVE, which is the fulfillment of the law, to people that are committed to working for God. If your spirit leads you to, do not think it is unlawful or irrelevant. Like all willful contributions to God's work, you will be blessed for giving tithes. If your spirit is not moved to giving tithes, much like it was even in the strict era of Mosaic laws, there is no punishment whatsoever for not giving.

okosunehis:
I may be wrong, but I can bet you did not read the original post of this thread, which I shared.

Abraham only performed an example of what would be made an obligation under the nation of Israel. We are not bound by the dictates of the Mosaic law on tithing, but it remains a commendable Christian practice. Hence Christ advised that we should not leave it "undone".

A "true Christian" will not, because of the pastors that have abused the law and even the spirit of paying tithes, deny the "men of God" who actually need it. Like I have said, everyone should be led by the spirit. Even if you obey the letters, and your spirit feels otherwise, your obedience is for nothing.

I'll leave you with the words of St. Paul in 1 Corinthians 9

7. Who serves as a soldier at his own expense? Who plants a vineyard and does not eat its grapes? Who tends a flock and does not drink the milk? 8. Do I say this merely on human authority? Doesn’t the Law say the same thing?
11. If we have sown spiritual seed among you, is it too much if we reap a material harvest from you?
12. If others have this right of support from you, shouldn’t we have it all the more?
13. Don’t you know that those who serve in the temple get their food from the temple, and that those who serve at the altar share in what is offered on the altar?
14. In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel.

I have explained myself well enough but what I don't understand is why do most Christian leader focus on tithe/money more than building souls which is the real purpose of Christianity? where are the morals among brethren? where are the love among you?
This is what Christ was talking about in Mathew 23:23.......

Most of the pastors do not open Church because of the love of God or building souls but because of money and by so doing are destroying the society because like the Bible say the love of money is the root of all evil, when you build your foundation on deceit/greed/materialism, you are headed for destruction

Some of us have allowed religion to blind our sense of reasoning....the money the church makes is from the members and so it's the church money for the welfare of the church (members inclusive) not just pastors alone but today's church is not so and this is the reason people are talking about the Church as being a scam.....

I corrinthian 9 :14
Church is for service and for profit making

desiredhome:
I have explained myself well enough but what I don't understand is why do most Christian leader focus on tithe/money more than building souls which is the real purpose of Christianity? where are the morals among brethren? where are the love among you?
This is what Christ was talking about in Mathew 23:23.......

Most of the pastors do not open Church because of the love of God or building souls but because of money and by so doing are destroying the society because like the Bible say the love of money is the root of all evil, when you build your foundation on deceit/greed/materialism, you are headed for destruction

Some of us have allowed religion to blind our sense of reasoning....the money the church makes is from the members and so it's the church money for the welfare of the church (members inclusive) not just pastors alone but today's church is not so and this is the reason people are talking about the Church as being a scam.....

I corrinthian 9 :14
Church is for service and (*NOT) for profit making

I totally agree with all these. Like Christ rebuked the Pharisees for, a lot of church leaders relegate the more important issues that have to do with building souls in righteousness and instead, devise all sorts of schemes and scams to fleece their followers.

What did Christ himself warn about? Remember Matt. 24:

5. For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many.
11. and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people.
24. For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
25. See, I have told you ahead of time.

With the above, the misleading ministry of such thieving "men of God" should not come as surprise. Their aim is to enrich themselves, destroying people's lives in the process. It is really unfortunate; but we were warned.