₦airaland Forum

Maximus69:
Jesus is angel Michael Sir!

Whether you like it or not, he is the Prince of Peace {Isaiah 9:6} please find another religious Organization that is PEACEFUL like JWs! Micah 4:1-3

hoopernikao:
The second thing I need you to give evidence of is below.

The scriptures and it's teaching was delivered to the church fathers (1st and 2nd Century church leaders). We should have evidence from their teachings on what was taught.

Mention and show text of any of the church fathers that referred to Jesus as an angel in any of their writings or teachings.

Bear in mind, I am refering to those who had direct contact with the apostles or those who had direct contact with the direct disciples of the apostles. Those will be the very first two centuries of the church. Mention such and quote his text here.

And I will give you direct text from some of them arguably implying Christ divinity as God.

hoopernikao:
The second thing I need you to give evidence of is below.

The scriptures and it's teaching was delivered to the church fathers (1st and 2nd Century church leaders). We should have evidence from their teachings on what was taught.

Mention and show text of any of the church fathers that referred to Jesus as an angel in any of their writings or teachings.

Bear in mind, I am refering to those who had direct contact with the apostles or those who had direct contact with the direct disciples of the apostles. Those will be the very first two centuries of the church. Mention such and quote his text here.

And I will give you direct text from some of them arguably implying Christ divinity as God.

Bros, bring PROOF that ALL Church Fathers were "implying Christ divinity as God" , genuine servants of God following Christ can NOT teach nor believe CONTRARY doctrines.

What Jesus Christ says in John 20:17 is the same thing Jesus himself said in Revelations 3:5,12.

Bros, do your imperfect Church Fathers know Yahweh more than God's Son, Jesus Christ?

Your doctrine goes against Revelations 3:5,12 ,21 and John 20:17, you are here to COUNTER the words of Jesus Christ.
Imagine a "Christian" proving Jesus is wrong..
What a pathetic pagan deity devotee DECEIVING himself !

.

Maximus69:
If you noticed the post you quoted, you'll see that i responded to someone accusing us of the teachings that has worked out what seems impossible throughout the earth "PEACE amongst people of all sorts" John 17:21-23 compare to Micah 4:1-3

So if you're now thinking of how to argue over the issue, please i'm not interested in any fruitless arguments. You belong to a well established religious Organization just as i also belong to a well established religious Organization.
Jesus said "by their FRUIT you will know them" Matthew 7:16-20

Please stick to your Religion so far it's yielding the fruit that's positive to your taste, Jehovah's Witnesses are one that needs no attachment!

Janosky:
Bros, bring PROOF that ALL Church Fathers were "implying Christ divinity as God" , genuine servants of God following Christ can NOT teach nor believe CONTRARY doctrines.

What Jesus Christ says in John 20:17 is the same thing Jesus himself said in Revelations 3:5,12.

Bros, do your imperfect Church Fathers know Yahweh more than God's Son, Jesus Christ?

Your doctrine goes against Revelations 3:5,12 ,21 and John 20:17, you are here to COUNTER the words of Jesus Christ.
Imagine a "Christian" proving Jesus is wrong..
What a pathetic pagan deity devotee DECEIVING himself !

.

hoopernikao:
So, it was an insight? Abi?

Yet you constantly ask that others should show you where Jesus is called God or Trinity used in the bible directly. Can't that be insight too?

You believe it's an insight to say Jesus is an angel just because it is only written that he will come with the voice of an angel, yet you neglect where he was called MY LORD, MY GOD; OUR GOD, JESUS CHRIST; THE WORD OF GOD; ONLY LORD GOD, JESUS CHRIST.

These ones are not insight. Abi?

You have been given over 20 scriptures that INSIGHTFULLY (using your terminology) but arguably pointed to Jesus as God. Yet you neglect and held to 3 scriptures that 2 of it does not even have Jesus mentioned in it and the last voice of angel and trumpet of God. Think on that yourself.

Which of these has more scriptures to settle or discuss.

Jesus as angels or Jesus as God?

No scriptures pointed to Jesus as Angel, yet you want me to insightfully see it when we have many insightfully plethora of scriptures arguably refering to Christ divinity as God.

Be careful sir.

hoopernikao:
Is it not arguments you have been involved in on this OP from beginning? Why is it now that I asked for evidence on your claims that you then shift ground.

Well, it is not an argument, it's an enlightenment for you that no church fathers received such doctrine of "Jesus is an Angel" from the Apostles or Jesus himself. And thus, none of them preached it. The doctrine likely originated from 3rd century (go and research the proponent) that is about 250 -350 years after Jesus's death and about 300 years after the last apostle of Jesus died.

And like I told you, you can't say same of the doctrine of "Jesus as God" in the early teaching of these men. Except you can point me to what I don't seems to know or havent read then this won't be an argument with you but enlightenment for you to research further on what you claim to be true.

Lastly, don't always make claims from scriptures and then throw the card of "I don't want to argue".
It's presents you in bad light.

When claims are made in the scriptures, you must be ready and able to provide unshaken evidence as taught, practiced and documented by the early churches as the information you give here can mislead many (as you are deliberately doing on Rozz).
And for some of us, in as much as we desire to overlook some of your wrong claims, we won't fold our hands seeing you using bible as defence yet without the bible teaching.

hoopernikao:
And likewise, you should not all loose focus of the above, we will need it as time goes on

@Maximus69
@Janosky
@Rozz

Maximus69:
And since all these so called church fathers have failed woefully to make PEACE reign among the adherents of your TRINITY God.
Now Jehovah's Witnesses who just began with their group teaching that Jesus is Michael is the one and only group that has made it possible for adherents of their own teachings to unite PEACEFULLY throughout the earth, what does that tells you?
Well that tells me that the key to gaining the fruitage all your church fathers couldn't have has been given to this group because they're able to IDENTIFY Michael the real Jesus!

hoopernikao:
It seems you like jumping from the middle in a swimming race. Always ensure you test the water, it may be too deep for such.

Go read my post again and tell me who preached "Jesus as Angel" or just submit to it that it wasn't preached by any of the church fathers, then I will give you line by line those who taught (at least from their writings) what you are vehemently against.

You are the one who make claims, prove it here, then I can take it from there.

Maximus69:
Just use the key (TRINITY) in your hand to open the door to LOVE, JOY and PEACE amongst the adherents of your TRINITY God, the same way JWs have used the key Michael (Jesus) to make LOVE, JOY and PEACE reign globally amongst themselves that's all! Matthew 7:16-20

Janosky:
Na everything for Bible Na Church Fathers dey know?
Did Church Fathers know that 2Timothy3:1-5 will fulfill at this time ?

2 These 1:7-9, who is leading other sons of God?

Malachi 3:1, who is the angel spoken of there?

So if Bible no write say six means half dozen, your brain no go understand?

hoopernikao:

Good that you said this. That all the church fathers failed woefully.

That includes all those known to be disciples of Christ Apostles, those who made sure you have the bible in your hand today. Those who were firstly set over the church of our Lord and Savior.

Keep this somewhere, we will need it.

So, now that the church fathers failed as you said.

Can I know your "father", I mean the one you follow and the contact they had with the apostles to be a proof of eye witness account and directly receiving from them? Or how did your father come about their teachings since all those in 1st and 2nd century failed God.

@Rozz please follow this intelligently.

hoopernikao:
I am not arguing with you nah.
Just tell me like your colleague said that the church father failed woefully in their assignments and they all taught heresy since non of them taught Jesus as an angel. And that all the believers in 1st and 2nd century failed God. This will close this Chapter.

Just be bold enough that they all lied.
Then proceed to tell me that JW is Modern Day Revelation MDR that has no root in the early church.

This will suffice.

hoopernikao:
This is distraction. Answer my questions and support your claims.

Maximus69:
I'm holding a key claiming it's the right key, you're also holding a key claiming the same, after arguing using the making of both keys i used mine to open the door yours is not opening the same door, yet you want to continue the argument no be madness be that?

hoopernikao:
Distraction Sir

hoopernikao:
Is it not arguments you have been involved in on this OP from beginning? Why is it now that I asked for evidence on your claims that you then shift ground.

Well, it is not an argument, it's an enlightenment for you that no church fathers received such doctrine of "Jesus is an Angel" from the Apostles or Jesus himself. And thus, none of them preached it. The doctrine likely originated from 3rd century (go and research the proponent) that is about 250 -350 years after Jesus's death and about 300 years after the last apostle of Jesus died.

And like I told you, you can't say same of the doctrine of "Jesus as God" in the early teaching of these men. Except you can point me to what I don't seems to know or havent read then this won't be an argument with you but enlightenment for you to research further on what you claim to be true.

Lastly, don't always make claims from scriptures and then throw the card of "I don't want to argue".
It's presents you in bad light.

When claims are made in the scriptures, you must be ready and able to provide unshaken evidence as taught, practiced and documented by the early churches as the information you give here can mislead many (as you are deliberately doing on Rozz).
And for some of us, in as much as we desire to overlook some of your wrong claims, we won't fold our hands seeing you using bible as defence yet without the bible teaching.

hoopernikao:

Good that you said this. That all the church fathers failed woefully.

That includes all those known to be disciples of Christ Apostles, those who made sure you have the bible in your hand today. Those who were firstly set over the church of our Lord and Savior.

Keep this somewhere, we will need it.

So, now that the church fathers failed as you said.

Can I know your "father", I mean the one you follow and the contact they had with the apostles to be a proof of eye witness account and directly receiving from them? Or how did your father come about their teachings since all those in 1st and 2nd century failed God.

@Rozz please follow this intelligently.

Rozz:
I am following

hoopernikao:
@Maximus69, Janosky

I am sure that is the end of part one.

@Rozz

Whenever you see a JW having to leave discussion to be talking about another thing, he is already found out.

We can conclude on this now based on their response.

That the teachings of "Jesus as Angel" was not taught and is alien to the very first church after the disciples of Jesus.

That the teaching only surface among those who never had contact or be known among the early disciples of Jesus or by extension, the disciples of the apostles.

It is a Modern Day Revelation MDR that has an unknown proponent. No eye witness account or documented fact that it was referred or inferred by the early church. So it came in as an intrusion to what was laid down and delivered to us.

That the JW claimed that all disciples of Jesus Apostles failed woefully in their assignments but couldnt mention a single person in history of the early church that support their claim and their organization doctrine.

Note:

The proponent of that false teaching surfaced in the last of 2nd and early part of 3rd century, the reason for what we called the Nicea Council today which the same JW turned around today to say it is for bringing in wrong doctrine of Trinity. Actually it is for checking their false teaching.

The church fathers, including those with eye witness account of the Apostles have it documented refering Christ as God in their letters. They (JW) should go and research.

---

See, Rozz, it is easy for you to reject or feel bad about your pastor because of his level of knowledge or his approach to your questions. But take it, he will do more better than leading you into hell and accursing our Savior as Angel.

Be careful. Every pastor is also growing in knowledge. Many are here always saying things they haven't study and mix things up, that doesn't mean they aren't sincere or have bad heart. It is just to grow. Even the Apostles of Jesus grew in knowledge overtime.

If your pastor avoids your questions, a true one will still go further to study to be better another time. If he carries such behavior all along, you may decided to find a place with same spirit but more exposed to the teaching of God's word than get distracted with lies here.

I tell you, some claim Jesus and are yet without Jesus, some claim knowledge, yet are robed in ignorance. Stick to those who have helped you overtime and let God leads you on your next step. Those I refer to in my last statement aren't find online but on ground.

Rozz:
I seriously do not believe that Jesus is Angel Michael since it was not found in the bible,if you say it's a hidden knowledge,why was the knowledge hidden and how did only JW came about that knowledge,so many things not adding up regarding this

DappaD:
Bro there are many passages in the Hebrew Scriptures that point to Jesus Christ as having existed before the world was created (Proverbs 8:22-31 & Micah 5:2) and also in the Christian Greek Scriptures, Jesus said that he descended from heaven(John 3:13). There are also other scriptures that point to Jesus being the firstborn of God's creation in the Christian Greek Scriptures, two of which are Colossians 1:15,16 and Revelations 3:14. Now tell me, considering all the scriptures point to, what form could Jesus have possibly existed as in heaven before he came to the earth?

DappaD:
You could ask any Jehovah's witness around you or one you know up front about questions you have and they'll respond to you using the Bible. There is enough evidence in the Bible to know that Jesus existed as an archangel in heaven, that is, by the name of Michael.
Most people on this thread read the Bible for the sake of being called “Christians” or just read it on the surface but they don't truly understand what the Bible really teaches.

hoopernikao:
.
Bro, you are the one who just raised this. So tell me the form.

Rozz:
I seriously do not believe that Jesus is Angel Michael since it was not found in the bible,if you say it's a hidden knowledge,why was the knowledge hidden and how did only JW came about that knowledge,so many things not adding up regarding this

hoopernikao:
Enough and you couldn't provide beyond 3 scriptures, or tell where it was used directly. Aren't enough scriptures on Jesus as God too?

DappaD:
I want you to use your intellect. What form could Jesus have existed as in heaven if not as an angel?

DappaD:
Please quote from the Bible where it says that Jesus is God or it looks like it's saying Jesus is God. Please do quote.

DappaD:
Bro there are many passages in the Hebrew Scriptures that point to Jesus Christ as having existed before the world was created (Proverbs 8:22-31 & Micah 5:2) and also in the Christian Greek Scriptures, Jesus said that he descended from heaven(John 3:13). There are also other scriptures that point to Jesus being the firstborn of God's creation in the Christian Greek Scriptures, two of which are Colossians 1:15,16 and Revelations 3:14. Now tell me, considering all the scriptures point to, what form could Jesus have possibly existed as in heaven before he came to the earth?

hoopernikao:
Well, you know scriptures you have argued with all the time. It's your turn to tell me how Jesus became angel. Lay out scriptures and not assumptions like your colleague said I should use insight. Explain it here. At least we have a solid conclusion already that it wasn't taught after the Apostles.