JMAN05:


I think the word that appeared there is still pneuma (strong 4151). It is from root pneo (strong 4154). Please check it up.

It doesn't go with the definite article the way you said it. That article in John 3:5 is inserted based on doctrinal understanding/bias. It shouldn't be there if we follow Greek literally/grammatically.

The word also appeared in Luke 1:80; Matt 5:3. Check up a concordance. Definite article didn't appear in those places.

The fact is that even the other points I mentioned above shows the weakness of your premise.

Firstly, you will need to recheck your interlinear well. You are likely using an interlinear that only use root words to represent all its inflexions when used. Eg. Most interlinear will use the word Theos even when it's inflexion such as Theo, Theou are used. You must use an interlinear that express the word in its original form not its root.

The word used there in its original Greek is pnuematos not pneuma. And I have clarified that earlier. You can use biblehub interlinear on this. Check their website and read the interlinear for John 3:5. That said.

Secondly the other points you raised are doctrinal and looking at John 3:5 contextually, lexically and exegetically, you are likely not correct and I will subscribe to the OP interpretation.

The water is not a core discussion but refer to the spirit in that verse. Hence born of water will refer to the regeneration and newness by the spirit.

@jamesid29

On your second point.

I would fully subscribe to the OP interpretation of John 3:5 that the usage of water will refer to the spirit birth only. The context, content, explanation and bible corroboration of support this.

You can present your view on this using text of the scriptures to support your stand.

hoopernikao:
@jamesid29

On your second point.

I would fully subscribe to the OP interpretation of John 3:5 that the usage of water will refer to the spirit birth only. The context, content, explanation and bible corroboration of support this.

You can present your view on this using text of the scriptures to support your stand.

Ok so, firstly I was just chipping in to clarify that OP's use of the Granville Sharp's rule didn't apply in his scenario as he would be altering the text and it's grammar.

As for interpreting what Jesus meant with "born of water and Spirit". I do agree with the position that Jesus was reefing of OT motifs where water and spirit/wind are used symbolically to speak of the new creation/new kingdom ( Isaiah 44:3-5 , Ezekiel 36:25-27, 37:9-10). It fits with John's theology and Jesus's initial statement in verse 3 of the need to be born "from above"(Ánōthen: rendered as born "again" as that's how Nicodemus initially understood it).

Although the traditional view of "the water" symbolising baptism does hold some merit ,especially if you look at it from a cultural standpoint, I'm not really leaning towards it.

hoopernikao:


Firstly, you will need to recheck your interlinear well. You are likely using an interlinear that only use root words to represent all its inflexions when used. Eg. Most interlinear will use the word Theos even when it's inflexion such as Theo, Theou are used. You must use an interlinear that express the word in its original form not its root.

The word used there in its original Greek is pnuematos not pneuma. And I have clarified that earlier. You can use biblehub interlinear on this. Check their website and read the interlinear for John 3:5. That said.

Yes. That's the way it is in my interlinear too, but it all has the same meaning. Check the strong number. That's the point.

Secondly the other points you raised are doctrinal and looking at John 3:5 contextually, lexically and exegetically, you are likely not correct and I will subscribe to the OP interpretation.

The water is not a core discussion but refer to the spirit in that verse. Hence born of water will refer to the regeneration and newness by the spirit.

We talking grammatically now. From Greek grammar no definite article should be added to that "spirit". Translations add it cos of doctrinal bias. It is not there nor does Greek grammar suggest that it should be there. I have also gone forward to show instances of where the same Greek word occured in a translation where "the" was not added. Translators add it because of their personal understanding/bias. I'm not saying you should not accept the way they worded it. It's your choice, but I'm coming from the position of greek grammar.

If you want us to discuss the meaning of John 3:5, that's a different thing altogether.

I feel the op misunderstood Sharp's rule. That's what all these is about.

jamesid29:

Ok so, firstly I was just chipping in to clarify that OP's use of the Granville Sharp's rule didn't apply in his scenario as he would be altering the text and it's grammar.

As for interpreting what Jesus meant with "born of water and Spirit". I do agree with the position that Jesus was reefing of OT motifs where water and spirit/wind are used symbolically to speak of the new creation/new kingdom ( Isaiah 44:3-5 , Ezekiel 36:25-27, 37:9-10). It fits with John's theology and Jesus's initial statement in verse 3 of the need to be born "from above"(Ánōthen: rendered as born "again" as that's how Nicodemus initially understood it).

Although the traditional view of "the water" symbolising baptism does hold some merit ,especially if you look at it from a cultural standpoint, I'm not really leaning towards it.

Good one.
No different stand then.
Explanation well done in context and bible theology.

Well done Sir.

JMAN05:


Yes. That's the way it is in my interlinear too, but it all has the same meaning. Check the strong number. That's the point.



We talking grammatically now. From Greek grammar no definite article should be added to that "spirit". Translations add it cos of doctrinal bias. It is not there nor does Greek grammar suggest that it should be there. I have also gone forward to show instances of where the same Greek word occured in a translation where "the" was not added. Translators add it because of their personal understanding/bias. I'm not saying you should not accept the way they worded it. It's your choice, but I'm coming from the position of greek grammar.

If you want us to discuss the meaning of John 3:5, that's a different thing altogether.

I feel the op misunderstood Sharp's rule. That's what all these is about.

Well, you seeing it written as pneumatos is enough for me. You may need to do further research then on why we have inflexions and there effects on surrounding text.

Also I pointed to ask for your John 3 explanation because you refered me to it (as your other points).

All the same. My view of the text is expressed in OP explanation and jamesid29 last response.

I will rather then not add anything except there are contrary view expressed again.

“Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
“Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’”
‭‭The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.””
‭‭John‬ ‭3:3-8‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

In the Lord’s discuss with Nicodemus, there’s a vital point that must not be overlooked- the number of times Jesus used Spirit compared with the number of times He used water .

Spirit appears three times as against water appearing once!

He never used water again after verse 5.

This is highly significant- The Spirit is the reality and water is just a shadow. He's saying the water is just an explanation for the Spirit. Once He made that point, He knew it was unnecessary to repeat it again.

Water is not required for the new birth. The water doesn't refer to water baptism as some have erroneously preached or taught. Water baptism doesn't lead to salvation.

“For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body— whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.”
‭‭I Corinthians‬ ‭12:13‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

“There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism;”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭4:4-5‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

And that baptism is by the Spirit and by the Spirit only.

Some have also claimed that the water in John 3:5 refers to the word of God quoting 1 Peter 1:23

“having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever,”
‭‭I Peter‬ ‭1:23‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

This is fraudulent and illogical, as the word of God here refers to the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. A man becomes born again when he hears the Gospel which is the word of God.

Once again, and for the sake of emphasis, the water in the third verse of John 3 is the Holy Spirit.

hoopernikao:


Good one.
No different stand then.
Explanation well done in context and bible theology.

Well done Sir.

I'm glad we landed on the same page sir.
But I'll like to offer one last comment: Using the end to justify the means is a slippery slope, especially when it comes to exegesis. Something we all(myself included) have to be mindful of.

Have a good one sir and enjoy your weekend.

jamesid29:

I'm glad we landed on the same page sir.
But I'll like to offer one last comment: Using the end to justify the means is a slippery slope, especially when it comes to exegesis. Something we all(myself included) have to be mindful of.

Have a good one sir and enjoy your weekend.

Okay Sir.

Well, I see no need in further scrutiny of the means since the end already affirmed the core essence of the scriptures and it's application especially in this case at hand.

The gradient in this case can be a function of depth of scriptural exegesis from both parties but not of deviation from the same.

Hence exchanging depth in this case may not be a necessary tool in an open forum such as this where we have high possibilities of open distractions than open learning.

Same wishes Sir
Have a good day

madegreatbygrace:
“But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him.”
‭‭John‬ ‭4:23‬ ‭NKJV‬‬


‭

The above is also often misapplied.

Should one worship God in both Spirit and truth?

Or should one worship God in Spirit only?

Applying this rule, Jesus was basically saying to the woman at the well that, " God is a Spirit: and they that worship Him must worship Him in Spirit which is the truth (reality)."

This is even clearer when we consider context.

The woman had a wrong mindset of what worship should be.


“Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, and you Jews say that in Jerusalem is the place where one ought to worship.”
‭‭John‬ ‭4:20‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

According to her, the acceptability of worship is dependent on location. The real worshipper is the one that worships in a certain place- on this mountain.

Here comes the refutal :

“Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father.”
‭‭John‬ ‭4:21‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

That's nicely put, eh?

So the time is coming- as a matter of fact, it has come- when what you're called will not matter and where you go to worship will not matter.

Then the bombshell:


“But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him.”
‭‭John‬ ‭4:23‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

Notice the "true worshippers". He gave a definition- those that worship God in Spirit.
Then for the sake of emphasis, He repeats Himself, " those that worship the Father in Spirit are the real worshippers- they worship in truth.

Mr. Op, are you now saying worship in the old testament was fake and unacceptable.

Not really.

Worship in the old testament was a shadow of what is obtainable under the new covenant because it was based on the old testament laws. It was indeed faulty and had to be jettisoned.

“For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭8:7‬ ‭NKJV‬‬


For God's utmost desire was for the temple to dwell in man.

So here, the truth explains the Spirit.

What does it mean to worship God in Spirit?

How do you know you're worshipping in Spirit?

quote author=Myer post=91150544]

What does it mean to worship God in Spirit?

How do you know you're worshipping in Spirit?

What is worship?

Worship is the act of attributing honour or reverence to God, through love and submission.

A man that worships God believes that God is the Lord, that is, He has supreme authority and He's the owner of all.

Worship is not limited to the slow songs the Choir sing in church or the act of bowing down, although these are acts of worship.

Anything done to honour God is an act of worship. Prayer, giving, preaching the Gospel and studying the word of God are acts of worship especially when they are done to honour God in love.

How does a man honour God?

Through submission in love.

For the believer, this submission or honour must be done through the Spirit, that is, carrying out the instructions of the Spirit and by the energy of the Spirit.

For example, at the end of every month, and after receiving the salary, I should ask the Lord how much of the salary He wants me to give to the House of the Lord. This amount could be 10%, 20%, 50% or 100% , and not a fixed amount of 10% as most Christians do.

So, the true worshippers are those that first search the heart of the Father and then carry out the desires of His Heart out of love and not compulsion.

How do I worship God in prayer?


Remember that there's no worship without honour, and there's no honour without submission in love.

The believer can not submit to the Lord without being led. This is why he's called a son.

“For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8:14‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

Thus, a believer worships God in prayer when he prays the Father's heart.

“Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8:26-27‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

So in prayer, he says only those that the Father through the Spirits want said. In other words, he prays the will of God with the aid of the Spirit. This is the highest honour in prayer, and this is true worship.

So you worship God in the Spirit when you obey instructions given to you by the Spirit of God inside of you. It is not fulfilling the lust of the flesh but fulfilling the desires of the Spirit in love.

madegreatbygrace:





What is worship?

Worship is the act of attributing honour or reverence to God, through love and submission.

A man that worships God believes that God is the Lord, that is, He has supreme authority and He's the owner of all.

Worship is not limited to the slow songs the Choir sing in church or the act of bowing down, although these are acts of worship.

Anything done to honour God is an act of worship. Prayer, giving, preaching the Gospel and studying the word of God are acts of worship especially when they are done to honour God in love.

How does a man honour God?

Through submission in love.

For the believer, this submission or honour must be done through the Spirit, that is, carrying out the instructions of the Spirit and by the energy of the Spirit.

For example, at the end of every month, and after receiving the salary, I should ask the Lord how much of the salary He wants me to give to the House of the Lord. This amount could be 10%, 20%, 50% or 100% , and not a fixed amount of 10% as most Christians do.

So, the true worshippers are those that first search the heart of the Father and then carry out the desires of His Heart out of love and not compulsion.

How do I worship God in prayer?


Remember that there's no worship without honour, and there's no honour without submission in love.

The believer can not submit to the Lord without being led. This is why he's called a son.

“For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8:14‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

Thus, a believer worships God in prayer when he prays the Father's heart.

“Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8:26-27‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

So in prayer, he says only those that the Father through the Spirits want said. In other words, he prays the will of God with the aid of the Spirit. This is the highest honour in prayer, and this is true worship.

So you worship God in the Spirit when you obey instructions given to you by the Spirit of God inside of you. It is not fulfilling the lust of the flesh but fulfilling the desires of the Spirit in love.

This is how people fail exams.lol
I did not ask you what worship means, that is a given. The Jews worshipped God. Moses worshipped God when He revealed himself to him.

I asked you what it means to worship God is Spirir.
What is the difference between the worship of old testament and new testament as Jesus stated, other than location.

Secondly. How then do you know you are worshipping God in Spirit?

[quote author=Myer post=91167648]

This is how people fail exams.lol
I did not ask you what worship means, that is a given. The Jews worshipped God. Moses worshipped God when He revealed himself to him.

I asked you what it means to worship God is Spirir.
What is the difference between the worship of old testament and new testament as Jesus stated, other than location.

Secondly. How then do you know you are worshipping God in Spirit?






You can make your point without being rude. Needless to say, I gave you a comprehensive answer to the best of my ability. Read through again and pay attention to the last paragraph/sentence. That's where your answer lies.

madegreatbygrace:





What is worship?

Worship is the act of attributing honour or reverence to God, through love and submission.

A man that worships God believes that God is the Lord, that is, He has supreme authority and He's the owner of all.

Worship is not limited to the slow songs the Choir sing in church or the act of bowing down, although these are acts of worship.

Anything done to honour God is an act of worship. Prayer, giving, preaching the Gospel and studying the word of God are acts of worship especially when they are done to honour God in love.

How does a man honour God?

Through submission in love.

For the believer, this submission or honour must be done through the Spirit, that is, carrying out the instructions of the Spirit and by the energy of the Spirit.

For example, at the end of every month, and after receiving the salary, I should ask the Lord how much of the salary He wants me to give to the House of the Lord. This amount could be 10%, 20%, 50% or 100% , and not a fixed amount of 10% as most Christians do.

So, the true worshippers are those that first search the heart of the Father and then carry out the desires of His Heart out of love and not compulsion.

How do I worship God in prayer?


Remember that there's no worship without honour, and there's no honour without submission in love.

The believer can not submit to the Lord without being led. This is why he's called a son.

“For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8:14‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

Thus, a believer worships God in prayer when he prays the Father's heart.

“Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8:26-27‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

So in prayer, he says only those that the Father through the Spirits want said. In other words, he prays the will of God with the aid of the Spirit. This is the highest honour in prayer, and this is true worship.

So you worship God in the Spirit when you obey instructions given to you by the Spirit of God inside of you. It is not fulfilling the lust of the flesh but fulfilling the desires of the Spirit in love.

When Peter was in the Spirit, we saw what happened. Acts 10
Likewise when Paul worshipped God in Spirit, he was transcended to another dimension (2 Corinthians 12:2). Like wise John (Revelations 1:10).

How come we don't see this in our time. We seem to only follow what our pastors teach us and not the scriptures.

Myer:


What does it mean to worship God in Spirit?

How do you know you're worshipping in Spirit?

A great question. I will tell you the true anwer though you may never have heard such.

Consider the setting in which the Lord spoke of worship, which teaching of worship perfectly synchronized with this setting.
The setting was a woman fetching from a well to quench her thirst which He likens to her search for pleasure from man to man. He then goes on to show her a never ending supply of water which automatically replenishes itself in place of the option of her continuous labour of fetching from a well.

Spiritually, all our longings and desires are tied to our spiritual thirst as humans. Humans are permanently trying to satisfy their thirst hence jumping from one created thing to another, from quest of science to religious activities to accomplishments to pleasures etc. but the book of Ecclesiastes shows the emptiness of these in satisfying the human thirst.

Worship in spirit/Truth described by the Lord in Jn4:23 is the point where we finally let the Creator take His place of satisfying this thirst as the Only who can without any help from things. This is the true reverence/honour/worship of God. This can only be when we realize none of the created things truly satisfies but only the Creator Himself.

How hardly believers ever do. Alas, they do not know the Creator has called them to this sole purpose and that He alone can satisfy beyond any created thing because they have yet to try Him and do not know the Way of Life/Truth. They do not know that this is in fact the sole purpose of their existence, to enjoy pleasure in God.
Every believer who is yet to drink from God's ever flowing fountain is yet to worship God. Only so few believers will find this worship and this is the worship in Truth and Spirit the Father desires.(Jn4:23-24). These are the "chosen" ones i.e. the few(Mt7:14, Ps16:11) who choose to follow the narrow path that leads to eternal life/fountain of water of life.(Rev21:6 & 22:7)

How do you know the point at which you worship God?
Not in going to church, mere praying, bible study or religion. All these can be done in vain. You only know you worship when inside of you, you experience this pleasure, fullness of joy and satisfaction flowing PERMANENTLY inside you without any act of yours or input from a created thing because the fountain replenishes itself and you need no labour of drawing. Here, you are ever so full of the water of life and pleasure/joy from the Creator within that you need no created alternative.

hoopernikao:


Well, you seeing it written as pneumatos is enough for me. You may need to do further research then on why we have inflexions and there effects on surrounding text.

Also I pointed to ask for your John 3 explanation because you refered me to it (as your other points).

All the same. My view of the text is expressed in OP explanation and jamesid29 last response.

I will rather then not add anything except there are contrary view expressed again.

Ok. There is no rule in grammar that supports the addition of definite article there. It's all about doctrine that made translators to add it. Nothing more.

Sharp's rule is obviously misunderstood. As for the meaning of John 3:5, I prefer a private discussion than this forum. You can PM me let's discuss that.

jamesid29:

Ok so, firstly I was just chipping in to clarify that OP's use of the Granville Sharp's rule didn't apply in his scenario as he would be altering the text and it's grammar.

As for interpreting what Jesus meant with "born of water and Spirit". I do agree with the position that Jesus was reefing of OT motifs where water and spirit/wind are used symbolically to speak of the new creation/new kingdom ( Isaiah 44:3-5 , Ezekiel 36:25-27, 37:9-10). It fits with John's theology and Jesus's initial statement in verse 3 of the need to be born "from above"(Ánōthen: rendered as born "again" as that's how Nicodemus initially understood it).

Although the traditional view of "the water" symbolising baptism does hold some merit ,especially if you look at it from a cultural standpoint, I'm not really leaning towards it.

I see that place as referring to water baptism. Do you wish we discuss it? I will prefer a mail from you. Not public forum.

quote author=Myer post=91169631]

When Peter was in the Spirit, we saw what happened. Acts 10
Likewise when Paul worshipped God in Spirit, he was transcended to another dimension (2 Corinthians 12:2). Like wise John (Revelations 1:10).

How come we don't see this in our time. We seem to only follow what our pastors teach us and not the scriptures.

Some Christians are lazy to find out for themselves what they possess in Christ Jesus. This laziness then leads to ignorance.

This is why Paul mostly wrote about knowing or knowledge in his epistles.

“the eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that you may know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints,”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭1:18‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

“Awake to righteousness, and do not sin; for some do not have the knowledge of God. I speak this to your shame.”
‭‭I Corinthians‬ ‭15:34‬ ‭NKJV‬‬


“I pray that the sharing of your faith may become effective and powerful because of your accurate knowledge of every good thing which is ours in Christ.”
‭‭Philemon‬ ‭1:6‬ ‭AMP‬‬

So it's clear that the problem of most Christians is lack of knowledge. We're not talking about head knowledge here, but revelational knowledge.

Second, there's a quick fix syndrome ravaging this generation, which prevents the majority from pursuing God with the whole of their hearts. We want it fast and now. People don't want to tarry, so that godly character be built in them. They don't want to go deep in fellowship and knowledge of God. They have no desire to go deep down into the sea.

Notice what the Psalmist says about them:

“Those who go down to the sea in ships, Who do business on great waters, They see the works of the LORD, And His wonders in the deep.”
‭‭Psalms‬ ‭107:23-24‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

So the wonders of the Lord are in the deep. So the reason why The apostles experienced these wonders was because they invaded the deep without inhibition. This is what is missing in this generation.

madegreatbygrace:




Some Christians are lazy to find out for themselves what they possess in Christ Jesus. This laziness then leads to ignorance.

This is why Paul mostly wrote about knowing or knowledge in his epistles.

“the eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that you may know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints,”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭1:18‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

“Awake to righteousness, and do not sin; for some do not have the knowledge of God. I speak this to your shame.”
‭‭I Corinthians‬ ‭15:34‬ ‭NKJV‬‬


“I pray that the sharing of your faith may become effective and powerful because of your accurate knowledge of every good thing which is ours in Christ.”
‭‭Philemon‬ ‭1:6‬ ‭AMP‬‬

So it's clear that the problem of most Christians is lack of knowledge. We're not talking about head knowledge here, but revelational knowledge.

Second, there's a quick fix syndrome ravaging this generation, which prevents the majority from pursuing God with the whole of their hearts. We want it fast and now. People don't want to tarry, so that godly character be built in them. They don't want to go deep in fellowship and knowledge of God. They have no desire to go deep down into the sea.

Notice what the Psalmist says about them:

“Those who go down to the sea in ships, Who do business on great waters, They see the works of the LORD, And His wonders in the deep.”
‭‭Psalms‬ ‭107:23-24‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

So the wonders of the Lord are in the deep. So the reason why The apostles experienced these wonders was because they invaded the deep without inhibition. This is what is missing in this generation.

Good observation. However I must ask, Do you mean there is no one in this generation that has exhibited the requisite patience, desire and spiritual knowledge to achieve the biblical manifestations?

Truth be told, we only keep making excuses for God and the bible.
In fact studying the bible personally one observes the disconnect between what the bible teaches and the realities of what we see in our churches today. We only have conflicting exegesis trying to explain it away.

Catholics praying through Holy Mary and lost saints. (Unscriptural).

Pentecostals speaking diverse tongues yet not one with the gift of interpretation. In fact speaking of tongues is taught in some churches.

The Holy Spirit is meant to teach and empower, yet No Power manifestations, no healing, no genuine miracles. Several Christians and Pastor keep dying to COVID-19 and other ailments.

The Love of money is exalted beyond heavens. Most churches are simply fund-raising avenues for the pastors ego and ostentatious lifestyle. (No surprise Oyedepo and Oyakhilome have been lamenting the lock-down all over their online platforms).

There's so much division in the body of Christ, yet every GO claims God sent them. it makes one wonder if God is not an author of confusion.

What then makes Christianity different from any other religion claiming to be the true religion?

Myer:


Good observation. However I must ask, Do you mean there is no one in this generation that has exhibited the requisite patience, desire and spiritual knowledge to achieve the biblical manifestations?

Truth be told, we only keep making excuses for God and the bible.
In fact studying the bible personally one observes the disconnect between what the bible teaches and the realities of what we see in our churches today. We only have conflicting exegesis trying to explain it away.

Catholics praying through Holy Mary and lost saints. (Unscriptural).

Pentecostals speaking diverse tongues yet not one with the gift of interpretation. In fact speaking of tongues is taught in some churches.

The Holy Spirit is meant to teach and empower, yet No Power manifestations, no healing, no genuine miracles. Several Christians and Pastor keep dying to COVID-19 and other ailments.

The Love of money is exalted beyond heavens. Most churches are simply fund-raising avenues for the pastors ego and ostentatious lifestyle. (No surprise Oyedepo and Oyakhilome have been lamenting the lock-down all over their online platforms).

There's so much division in the body of Christ, yet every GO claims God sent them. it makes one wonder if God is not an author of confusion.

What then makes Christianity different from any other religion claiming to be the true religion?

Baba, you don come again.

No single division in the body Sir. The body is preserved by the head.

I also will point out to you again as I have before, that true exegesis don't explain away the scriptures or God. True exegesis reveals the true intent of the scriptures which is God's mind.

Always know this.
Whenever two persons teach or explain the scriptures in contradiction, it is either one of them is wrong or both but not the scriptures.

Trust you are good.

hoopernikao:


Baba, you don come again.

No single division in the body Sir. The body is preserved by the head.

I also will point out to you again as I have before, that true exegesis don't explain away the scriptures or God. True exegesis reveals the true intent of the scriptures which is God's mind.

Always know this.
Whenever two persons teach or explain the scriptures in contradiction, it is either one of them is wrong or both but not the scriptures.

Trust you are good.

I'm good man. Better per second.

I have to come again when the conversation makes me climax. (Pun intended)

The issue of division in the body of Christ is undeniable, I mean I'm surprised you would question that except by reason of religious responsibility or necessity. I think at this point you need to embark on some missions and see the church beyond your local assembly.

The division is most magnified if you ever try to marry outside your own denomination especially, if you're from the Orthodox churches. (Catholic, Anglican, etc)

There is a grand canyon of difference in the churches, division in doctrines, in Exegesis, in mode of worship, etc.

I would know this because I sought the oneness of the body of Christ but never found it.

The division of the body of Christ is actually meant to achieve the similitude of division of labour. A part being the hand, another the eyes, another the leg, etc all working together in harmony, Christ being the head. 1 Corinthians 12:12-21
But clearly this is not the case.

Myer:

I'm good man. Better per second.
I have to come again when the conversation makes me climax. (Pun intended)

The issue of division in the body of Christ is undeniable, I mean I'm surprised you would question that except by reason of religious responsibility or necessity. I think at this point you need to embark on some missions and see the church beyond your local assembly.

The division is most magnified if you ever try to marry outside your own denomination especially, if you're from the Orthodox churches. (Catholic, Anglican, etc)

There is a grand canyon of difference in the churches, division in doctrines, in Exegesis, in mode of worship, etc.
I would know this because I sought the oneness of the body of Christ but never found it.

The division of the body of Christ is actually meant to achieve the similitude of division of labour. A part being the hand, another the eyes, another the leg, etc all working together in harmony, Christ being the head. 1 Corinthians 12:12-21
But clearly this is not the case.

You must FIRST AND FOREMOST, get this clear in your mind.

You will need to correct your view of the CHURCH.


WHAT DOES THE BIBLE REFERS TO AS THE BODY OF CHRIST

Firstly, the church is a body, BODY OF CHRIST. This is not primarily a physical assembly. It refers to a spiritual body, the resurrected body of Christ.

Everyone who receive the gospel come into this body. The gathering is as a result of this primary unification. For example, a man who got saved in a place where no church gathering or denomination exist is still part of the body, he is identify IN CHRIST, the body.

The headship of the body is Christ and the body is not divided. When a body is divided, it simply means the head has lost its control.


Take note of the following:

1. The physical assembly or denomination is not what is referred to as ONE BODY in Christ, but the single entity of the resurrected body.

1 Cor 12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.


2. The body of Christ can only and is only preserve by the Head (Christ)

Jude 24, 24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,


3. The body is not referring firstly to physical gathering but spiritual body that identify us in Christ:

Ephes 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:


4. The head of the body is in full control of the body, hence the body is not divided or disjointed.

Ephesians 1:22 And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as[b] head over all things to the church[/b],


5. That the body has never, and can never be divided.

Rom 12:5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.


6. You must always see Christ as the owner, the one nurturing, preserving the body ,

Ephes 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.


7. You must know that it is HIM alone that will and can present the body blameless and without spot even unto HIMSELF.

Ephes 5:27, That HE might present it TO HIMSELF a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.


8. That the duty of unity of the body is done by Christ alone.

Col 2:10 and in Him you have been made complete


Note that all the above scriptures emphasized our oneness in the body. The unity of the body is the work of the HolyGhost and it is on individual. This is dont when you came into Christ. You are unified with the body. Denominations arent formed in Christ or unified in the body but individual.


I will give you a human-like narrative of what this means:

When you say a man's body part is disunited or disjointed, what that will referred is death. Maybe the hand is somewhere else, the head is severed, the leg is broken, the eyes removed etc. That is a body disjointed. Hence it referred to death, maim or sick body.

But we know that the body of Christ is living and alive, fully nourished by the head. We have a head that is in full control of the body, preserving it till the end.

---

So, What Does It Mean When People Refer To The Divisions Among The Assemblies and Denominations.

You will firstly need to read 1 Corinthians 12:12-27, Romans 12:4-7 .

Whenever division or participation is referred to in the body, it speaks about the activities, administration and conducts of the members.

Referring to the human body i mentioned earlier. If the right hand chose to pick a phone and the right hand chose to pick plate, or the eyes says i cant help the hand to pick.... You will call this division as per the conduct not the body in itself, the body is still intact and preserved.

So, what you see arising as denominations today are due to these. The administration of the body, the activities of the body will be seen in men and handled to men by the HEAD.

Ephes 4
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

These are authorities for the assembly administration. This is what many see and called the body as divided.

Observe, verse 13 the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God,
The unity there refers to the knowledge of the Son of God. So, it speaks about how we conduct ourselves, the activities which are driven by knowledge, hence verse 14

14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine,

That means, the knowledge will be perfected by doctrine, teaching, training and edifying of the members.

So, the reason for differences in administration and conducts is due doctrine.

---

DOES THE DIFFERENCE IN DOCTRINE A NEW THING TO THE CHURCH?

Looking at the history of the church, you will agree that differences in doctrine and conducts have been even from the days of the Apostles.

- Peter/Other Apostles, Peter/Paul, Barnabas/Paul, Jews/Hellenist, Corinthians church etc.
- In Epistles, Paul taught about it, John spoke about it, Peter same.

We have such in history. The difference is that they were able to resolved the differences due to the size and structure at hand. You cant say that today due to the spread of the gospel. Hence even though administration is stratified, we will still have pockets of differences due to interpretation. This leads to our conducts and activities in the body. This is what you referred to as mode of worship etc. They are borne from the differences in doctrine not division in the body.

So, when we speak about the differences in the body, it shouldnt be taken as a disjointed body. Christ is able to and is the one nourishing, developing and keeping his body. His control is intact and he is able to present us blameless and spotless.

Lastly, we trust God, that the members of the body will attain the unity in doctrine unto the knowledge of the Son only. Christ only be preached and exalted in his church.

JMAN05:


I see that place as referring to water baptism. Do you wish we discuss it? I will prefer a mail from you. Not public forum.

I personally think an open forum is fine for a topic like this. It gives opportunity for others to chip in with other view points. I think as long as we all handle the conversation with grace, it should be fine.

jamesid29:

I personally think an open forum is fine for a topic like this. It gives opportunity for others to chip in with other view points. I think as long as we all handle the conversation with grace, it should be fine.

No. I have been here for long. I ve observed that people are readily open to change when they think no one is seeing the conversation. Unlike when it is open, they are ready to argue to death even when the evidence is obvious. Why? Perhaps, they want to save face. They feel they ll loose if they accept in public. You will likely observe this later.

Secondly, there are chances of derailing the thread in a public discussion.

Pm works best. Trust me.

JMAN05:


No. I have been here for long. I ve observed that people are readily open to change when they think no one is seeing the conversation. Unlike when it is open, they are ready to argue to death even when the evidence is obvious. Why? Perhaps, they want to save face. They feel they ll loose if they accept in public. You will likely observe this later.

Secondly, there are chances of derailing the thread in a public discussion.

Pm works best. Trust me.

I've been here off and on for a while so I understand what you are talking about. Despite that, there are things that can be discussed here.
This is more of a conversation that centers around how we parse certain texts and not necessarily a conversion conversation, so it's okay be discussed in the open. You have offered to show how you arrived at your interpretation and I'll very much like to read it. I'll in turn will probably give you reasons why I agree with some parts and disagree with others and some else can probably chip in from a different angle.
There's too much misinformation on the internet and the more respectful conversations that are public, the better.

Either way sir, I'll understand if you are not inclined to do so. It's perfectly okay

jamesid29:

I've been here off and on for a while so I understand what you are talking about. Despite that, there are things that can be discussed here.
This is more of a conversation that centers around how we parse certain texts and not necessarily a conversion conversation, so it's okay be discussed in the open. You have offered to show how you arrived at your interpretation and I'll very much like to read it. I'll in turn will probably give you reasons why I agree with some parts and disagree with others and some else can probably chip in from a different angle.
There's too much misinformation on the internet and the more respectful conversations that are public, the better.

Either way sir, I'll understand if you are not inclined to do so. It's perfectly okay

I will comment when it has to do with grammar as regards John 3:5. I think, there is no more reason to speak on that. There is no grammatical reason to input "the" before "spirit". It's all about doctrine. I won't make much issue about that cos that often happens in translations. What I won't agree is that Greek grammar supports it. It doesn't.

However, as to why "water" there refers to water baptism, I will prefer a private discussion. Without such, I assure you that there won't be an end to the tunnel. If you want to discuss that, let's make it private.

hoopernikao:


You must FIRST AND FOREMOST, get this clear in your mind.

You will need to correct your view of the CHURCH.


WHAT DOES THE BIBLE REFERS TO AS THE BODY OF CHRIST

Firstly, the church is a body, BODY OF CHRIST. This is not primarily a physical assembly. It refers to a spiritual body, the resurrected body of Christ.

Everyone who receive the gospel come into this body. The gathering is as a result of this primary unification. For example, a man who got saved in a place where no church gathering or denomination exist is still part of the body, he is identify IN CHRIST, the body.

The headship of the body is Christ and the body is not divided. When a body is divided, it simply means the head has lost its control.


Take note of the following:

1. The physical assembly or denomination is not what is referred to as ONE BODY in Christ, but the single entity of the resurrected body.

1 Cor 12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.


2. The body of Christ can only and is only preserve by the Head (Christ)

Jude 24, 24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,


3. The body is not referring firstly to physical gathering but spiritual body that identify us in Christ:

Ephes 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:


4. The head of the body is in full control of the body, hence the body is not divided or disjointed.

Ephesians 1:22 And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as[b] head over all things to the church[/b],


5. That the body has never, and can never be divided.

Rom 12:5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.


6. You must always see Christ as the owner, the one nurturing, preserving the body ,

Ephes 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.


7. You must know that it is HIM alone that will and can present the body blameless and without spot even unto HIMSELF.

Ephes 5:27, That HE might present it TO HIMSELF a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.


8. That the duty of unity of the body is done by Christ alone.

Col 2:10 and in Him you have been made complete


Note that all the above scriptures emphasized our oneness in the body. The unity of the body is the work of the HolyGhost and it is on individual. This is dont when you came into Christ. You are unified with the body. Denominations arent formed in Christ or unified in the body but individual.


I will give you a human-like narrative of what this means:

When you say a man's body part is disunited or disjointed, what that will referred is death. Maybe the hand is somewhere else, the head is severed, the leg is broken, the eyes removed etc. That is a body disjointed. Hence it referred to death, maim or sick body.

But we know that the body of Christ is living and alive, fully nourished by the head. We have a head that is in full control of the body, preserving it till the end.

---

So, What Does It Mean When People Refer To The Divisions Among The Assemblies and Denominations.

You will firstly need to read 1 Corinthians 12:12-27, Romans 12:4-7 .

Whenever division or participation is referred to in the body, it speaks about the activities, administration and conducts of the members.

Referring to the human body i mentioned earlier. If the right hand chose to pick a phone and the right hand chose to pick plate, or the eyes says i cant help the hand to pick.... You will call this division as per the conduct not the body in itself, the body is still intact and preserved.

So, what you see arising as denominations today are due to these. The administration of the body, the activities of the body will be seen in men and handled to men by the HEAD.

Ephes 4
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

These are authorities for the assembly administration. This is what many see and called the body as divided.

Observe, verse 13 the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God,
The unity there refers to the knowledge of the Son of God. So, it speaks about how we conduct ourselves, the activities which are driven by knowledge, hence verse 14

14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine,

That means, the knowledge will be perfected by doctrine, teaching, training and edifying of the members.

So, the reason for differences in administration and conducts is due doctrine.

---

DOES THE DIFFERENCE IN DOCTRINE A NEW THING TO THE CHURCH?

Looking at the history of the church, you will agree that differences in doctrine and conducts have been even from the days of the Apostles.

- Peter/Other Apostles, Peter/Paul, Barnabas/Paul, Jews/Hellenist, Corinthians church etc.
- In Epistles, Paul taught about it, John spoke about it, Peter same.

We have such in history. The difference is that they were able to resolved the differences due to the size and structure at hand. You cant say that today due to the spread of the gospel. Hence even though administration is stratified, we will still have pockets of differences due to interpretation. This leads to our conducts and activities in the body. This is what you referred to as mode of worship etc. They are borne from the differences in doctrine not division in the body.

So, when we speak about the differences in the body, it shouldnt be taken as a disjointed body. Christ is able to and is the one nourishing, developing and keeping his body. His control is intact and he is able to present us blameless and spotless.

Lastly, we trust God, that the members of the body will attain the unity in doctrine unto the knowledge of the Son only. Christ only be preached and exalted in his church.

You've spoken well as a bible scholar.

However, like I mentioned, I am simply stating the dissonance between what the bible teaches and what is reality.

You have simply stated how things ought to be, not how things are in reality.

The division is well pronounced.

God's plan for the church is not as much a mystery if you search the scriptures;

The Lord's prayer gives more insight to God's plan for the church, to establish on earth the kingdom of God as it is in heaven.

Is the reality today in any way in the likeness of what you would expect the kingdom of God in heaven to be? Considering the number of churches we boast of both in Nigeria and the world at large?

Myer:


You've spoken well as a bible scholar.

However, like I mentioned, I am simply stating the dissonance between what the bible teaches and what is reality.

You have simply stated how things ought to be, not how things are in reality.

The division is well pronounced.

God's plan for the church is not as much a mystery if you search the scriptures;

The Lord's prayer gives more insight to God's plan for the church, to establish on earth the kingdom of God as it is in heaven.

Is the reality today in any way in the likeness of what you would expect the kingdom of God in heaven to be? Considering the number of churches we boast of both in Nigeria and the world at large?

The reality is not in experience but in the truth of the scriptures. A believer realities are what the word of God says.

The word of God says the body in united, preserved, nothing can change that, No experience, no doctrine, no explanation or actions can change that. Hence what you see not that you call realities are only human perceptions of what the reality should be. And like i said, that will all fade away at the instance of the Truth and Reality.

[quote author=hoopernikao post=91334386]

The reality is not in experience but in the truth of the scriptures. A believer realities are what the word of God says.

The word of God says the body in united, preserved, nothing can change that, No experience, no doctrine, no explanation or actions can change that. Hence what you see not that you call realities are only human perceptions of what the reality should be. And like i said, that will all fade away at the instance of the Truth and Reality.[/quote

The just (believer) does walk by faith. Yet faith is justified by its works (evidences).

If the word of faith declared fails to yield results (even over time), then how is it justified?

What made Jesus Christ and the Apostles believable was that their works were justified. Their words of faith produced results.

If Jesus had declared that he would be crucified, die and rise and it was only a matter of faith and never happened, then he would have not been believable.

That is what my assertion is. If the scriptural truth is not justified by the reality of its adherents, then is it truth?

JMAN05:


I will comment when it has to do with grammar as regards John 3:5. I think, there is no more reason to speak on that. There is no grammatical reason to input "the" before "spirit". It's all about doctrine. I won't make much issue about that cos that often happens in translations. What I won't agree is that Greek grammar supports it. It doesn't.

However, as to why "water" there refers to water baptism, I will prefer a private discussion. Without such, I assure you that there won't be an end to the tunnel. If you want to discuss that, let's make it private.

It is well sir.. let's drop it at that.
Enjoy your weekend.

Myer:

The just (believer) does walk by faith. Yet faith is justified by its works (evidences).
If the word of faith declared fails to yield results (even over time), then how is it justified?

What made Jesus Christ and the Apostles believable was that their works were justified. Their words of faith produced results.
If Jesus had declared that he would be crucified, die and rise and it was only a matter of faith and never happened, then he would have not been believable.

That is what my assertion is. If the scriptural truth is not justified by the reality of its adherents, then is it truth?

I will leave this context to you as is not in line with what we are discussing so as to avoid us been distracted.

But know that when scriptures says Faith without works is dead, it is not referring to result but walk/work of faith. I will leave it at that.

Selah.

hoopernikao:


I will leave this context to you as is not in line with what we are discussing so as to avoid us been distracted.

But know that when scriptures says Faith without works is dead, it is not referring to result but walk/work of faith. I will leave it at that.

Selah.

lol what then is the work of faith if it is not in the result that the faith produces?

Abraham had faith in the promise that he would be the father of many nations. Could the faith have been justified if he never gave birth to Isaac and Ishmael?
The place of faith never negates results. Which is what James was also alluding to. How can you claim you have faith and we are not seeing the works, the results that faith produces viz the fruit and gifts of the spirit etc.

It's simply denial not to admit that the Faith of Christians in Nigeria and the world at large has failed to produce the works (results) it is meant to.