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Born Of Water And The Spirit And The "Kai" Connection - Religion - Nairaland

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Born Of Water And The Spirit And The "Kai" Connection by madegreatbygrace(m): 9:45pm On Jun 23, 2020
The English word "and" is a conjunction used as a connector between words, phrases, clauses and sentences. In English, "and" is relatively explicit, almost always joining two different things.

The Greek word "Kai" is most often translated into English as "and", but its meaning in Greek goes way beyond that of our familiar English conjunction. In Greek, "Kai" is much more complex in usage, operating in ways that are foreign to English speakers. It could mean "that is", "which is", "namely", or "even".

Due to the complexity of the word "Kai", English readers often misunderstand the meaning of some New Testament verses. One of these is John 3:5 ;

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3:5‬ ‭KJV‬‬


In this verse, water and Spirit do not imply two different things. As a matter of fact, water and Spirit are one and the same!

Yes, water is the same as the Spirit according to Jesus.

How so?

Jesus often used water as a typology for the Holy Spirit. In other words, water symbolises the Holy Spirit as one can observe in these verses ;

“He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)”
‭‭John‬ ‭7:38-39‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.”

‭‭John‬ ‭4:14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

With this understanding, John 3:5 can be rephrased thus :

"Verily verily I say unto thee, except a man be born of water which is the Spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God."

When does "kai" explain a preceding noun?

We need a little bit of grammar to unravel the Granville Sharp rule, especially copulative conjunctions, which is also known as additive conjunctions. Copulative conjunctions are words that join other words and indicate the relation of an additional information. Examples are "and", moreover, and "also". Also, "the" is the only definite article in English language.


The Granville Sharp rule states that when two singular common nouns are used to describe a person or thing, and those two nouns are joined by copulative conjunction, and the definite article precedes the first noun but not the second ( or the definite article precedes the second noun but not the first), then both nouns refer to the same thing or person.

As an illustration, consider the sentence:

Yesterday, I saw the founder and the sponsor of the city football club, Mr. Columbus.

The definite article "the" is used twice, before both founder and sponsor. It's clear that Mr. Columbus is founder from the statement above, but the sponsor could be a different person.
Thus, it is not certain if Mr. Columbus is both the founder and the sponsor of the football club.

However, this uncertainty is eliminated in the following reconstruction:

Yesterday, I saw the founder and sponsor of the city football club, Mr. Columbus.

In this case, the definite article “the” is used once, before the first noun. Therefore, Mr. Columbus is both founder and sponsor of the city football club.

In summary, The Granville Sharp rule can be stated as-

Definite article + singular noun + copulative conjunction + singular noun= the same person or thing.

Or in some cases-

singular noun + copulative conjunction + definite article + singular noun = the same person or thing.


We’ll now begin to apply this rule to some Bible verses that are often erroneously taught or understood.

John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭3:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬


Notice here that the noun "fire" is not preceded by "the". Therefore, The Holy Ghost and fire mean the same thing.
Fire is a figure of the purification of sin.

1 Like

Re: Born Of Water And The Spirit And The "Kai" Connection by Kobojunkie: 2:44am On Jun 24, 2020
madegreatbygrace:

With this understanding, John 3:5 can be rephrased thus :
"Verily verily I say unto thee, except a man be born of water which is the Spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God."
And when you say water, you literally mean water, right? undecided undecided You mean wherever Jesus Christ referred to the Spirit of God living on the inside of us, He meant to say that water would live on the inside of us? undecided undecided
When Jesus Christ said He would send a Helper who would comfort us, direct us, guide us, counsel us, lead us to all Truth, He, Jesus Christ, was simply saying that water would direct us, guide us, counsel us, and lead us to all Truth that is Jesus Christ? undecided undecided undecided
Re: Born Of Water And The Spirit And The "Kai" Connection by madegreatbygrace(m): 3:07am On Jun 24, 2020
Kobojunkie:
And when you say water, you literally mean water, right? undecided undecided You mean wherever Jesus Christ referred to the Spirit of God living on the inside of us, He meant to say that water would live on the inside of us? undecided undecided
When Jesus Christ said He would send a Helper who would comfort us, direct us, guide us, counsel us, lead us to all Truth, He, Jesus Christ, was simply saying that water would direct us, guide us, counsel us, and lead us to all Truth that is Jesus Christ? undecided undecided undecided
[b][/b][quote]




Look up the meaning of typology in the English dictionary.

1 Like

Re: Born Of Water And The Spirit And The "Kai" Connection by Kobojunkie: 3:32am On Jun 24, 2020
Following your explanation above of the use of the Greek word 'kai', am I to conclude that everywhere else the word 'kai' is used, I can simply ignore the word following the conjunction in the English translation?
For instance, .

1 John 5 vs 6
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
6. This is the One who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ— not by water alone, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies to this, because the Spirit is the truth.
should instead read....

1 John 5 vs 6
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
6. This is the One who came by water, Jesus Christ— not by water alone, but by water. And it is the Spirit who testifies to this because the Spirit is the truth.
As we can see, water and Spirit are not considered the same here, as the Spirit is said to testify to Jesus Christ's coming, where the water does not seem to have that power to do the same.
undecided undecided undecided
Re: Born Of Water And The Spirit And The "Kai" Connection by Kobojunkie: 3:34am On Jun 24, 2020
madegreatbygrace:
Look up the meaning of typology in the English dictionary
Oh, I understand the meaning of typology. What I don't understand is what you are trying to make happen here. undecided
Re: Born Of Water And The Spirit And The "Kai" Connection by hoopernikao: 3:50am On Jun 24, 2020
Kobojunkie:
Oh, I understand the meaning of typology. What I don't understand is what you are trying to make happen here. undecided

What he was refering to is called Sharp rule of Greek lexicon by Granville Sharp, likely a bible scholar. It is a widely accepted rule in Greek language construction and usage. And among bible scholars. This has helped in revealing meaning behind many hard bible text due to word construction. You can do a search on it and read his research on bible text.

Though the OP just did a roll-on on the text. It's either he is in a rush to explain or haven't study the rule well itself. Howbeit, by sharp rule and other bible corroboration he is perfectly in order, yet I don't think the OP should initiate a topic he wouldn't explain properly. It cause more harm than good.

Good morning.
Re: Born Of Water And The Spirit And The "Kai" Connection by Kobojunkie: 3:57am On Jun 24, 2020
hoopernikao:

What he was refering to is called Sharp rule of Greek lexicon by Granville Sharp, likely a bible scholar. It is a widely accepted rule in Greek language construction and usage. And among bible scholars. This has helped in revealing meaning behind many hard bible text due to word construction. You can do a search on it and read his research on bible text.
What he is referring to? Where did you find that in the @OP's write-up? I didn't ask about Bible scholars. I asked about the meaning in the @Op's assertions regarding what Jesus said or did not say. undecided undecided
hoopernikao:

Though the OP just did a roll-on on the text. It's either he is in a rush to explain or haven't study the rule well itself. Howbeit, by sharp rule and other bible corroboration he is perfectly in order, yet I don't think the OP should initiate a topic he wouldn't explain properly. It cause more harm than good.
Good morning.
Oh, now you are saying this? undecided undecided
Re: Born Of Water And The Spirit And The "Kai" Connection by madegreatbygrace(m): 4:08am On Jun 24, 2020
quote author=Kobojunkie post=91003917Following your explanation above of the use of the Greek word 'kai', am I to conclude that everywhere else the word 'kai' is used, I can simply ignore the word following the conjunction in the English translation?
For instance, .

should instead read....
As we can see, water and Spirit are not considered the same here, as the Spirit is said to testify to Jesus Christ's coming, where the water does not seem to have that power to do the same.
undecided undecided undecided




Oh, I understand. It's not in all cases that you ignore the word following anywhere the word "kai" is used. Generally, context, common sense, structural hint, and an overall sense of scripture and author's intent are the best guides. In the verse you quoted above, water and blood are not one and the same. The water refers to the Jesus's divinity or his "begotteness" while blood refers to his humanity or being born of a woman.

I'll explain further in the coming days. Hope this helps.
Re: Born Of Water And The Spirit And The "Kai" Connection by madegreatbygrace(m): 4:30am On Jun 24, 2020
[quote author=hoopernikao post=91004003]

What he was refering to is called Sharp rule of Greek lexicon by Granville Sharp, likely a bible scholar. It is a widely accepted rule in Greek language construction and usage. And among bible scholars. This has helped in revealing meaning behind many hard bible text due to word construction. You can do a search on it and read his research on bible text.

Though the OP just did a roll-on on the text. It's either he is in a rush to explain or haven't study the rule well itself. Howbeit, by sharp rule and other bible corroboration he is perfectly in order, yet I don't think the OP should initiate a topic he wouldn't explain properly. It cause more harm than good.

Good morning.




I understand clearly the Sharp rule. It is also known as the TSKS rule. I wasn't in a rush either. It's just my writing style to present my points bit by bit. Thanks brother.
Re: Born Of Water And The Spirit And The "Kai" Connection by madegreatbygrace(m): 7:16am On Jun 24, 2020
When does "kai" explain a preceding noun?

We need a little bit of grammar to unravel the Granville Sharp rule, especially copulative conjunctions, which is also known as additive conjunctions. Copulative conjunctions are words that join other words and indicate the relation of an additional information. Examples are "and", moreover, and "also". Also, "the" is the only definite article in English language.


The Granville Sharp rule states that when two singular common nouns are used to describe a person or thing, and those two nouns are joined by copulative conjunction, and the definite article precedes the first noun but not the second ( or the definite article precedes the second noun but not the first), then both nouns refer to the same thing or person.

As an illustration, consider the sentence:

Yesterday, I saw the founder and the sponsor of the city football club, Mr. Columbus.

The definite article "the" is used twice, before both founder and sponsor. It's clear that Mr. Columbus is founder from the statement above, but the sponsor could be a different person.
Thus, it is not certain if Mr. Columbus is both the founder and the sponsor of the football club.

However, this uncertainty is eliminated in the following reconstruction:

Yesterday, I saw the founder and sponsor of the city football club, Mr. Columbus.

In this case, the definite article “the” is used once, before the first noun. Therefore, Mr. Columbus is both founder and sponsor of the city football club.

In summary, The Granville Sharp rule can be stated as-

Definite article + singular noun + copulative conjunction + singular noun= the same person or thing.

Or in some cases-

singular noun + copulative conjunction + definite article + singular noun = the same person or thing.

We’ll now begin to apply this rule to some Bible verses that are often erroneously taught or understood.

“John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭3:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Notice here that the noun "fire" is not preceded by "the". Therefore, The Holy Ghost and fire mean the same thing.
Fire is a figure of the purification of sin.

1 Like

Re: Born Of Water And The Spirit And The "Kai" Connection by hoopernikao: 11:47am On Jun 24, 2020
madegreatbygrace:

I understand clearly the Sharp rule. It is also known as the TSKS rule. I wasn't in a rush either. It's just my writing style to present my points bit by bit. Thanks brother.


Okay.
Re: Born Of Water And The Spirit And The "Kai" Connection by hoopernikao: 11:51am On Jun 24, 2020
Kobojunkie:

What he is referring to? Where did you find that in the @OP's write-up? I didn't ask about Bible scholars. I asked about the meaning in the @Op's assertions regarding what Jesus said or did not say. undecided undecided
Oh, now you are saying this? undecided undecided

He doesnt have to mention a rule for it to be known. Bible student should know the premise of explanation of a subject. When you see a rule applied in literature or language, you should be able to know where it i s coming from. So, OP not stating the name doesnt change the fact that it is drawn from that rule.

Note also that bible student should know rules that guide language of origin of the scriptures. You cant reach an accurate interpretation without proper knowledge of the language. Hence the English bible you read could have been a mess if the translators know nothing about the language construction.
Re: Born Of Water And The Spirit And The "Kai" Connection by madegreatbygrace(m): 1:15pm On Jun 24, 2020
[quote author=hoopernikao post=91015761]

He doesnt have to mention a rule for it to be known. Bible student should know the premise of explanation of a subject. When you see a rule applied in literature or language, you should be able to know where it i s coming from. So, OP not stating the name doesnt change the fact that it is drawn from that rule.

Note also that bible student should know rules that guide language of origin of the scriptures. You cant reach an accurate interpretation without proper knowledge of the language. Hence the English bible you read could have been a mess if the translators know nothing about the language construction.










You nailed it bro. I should be learning from you.
Re: Born Of Water And The Spirit And The "Kai" Connection by Nobody: 2:25pm On Jun 24, 2020
madegreatbygrace:
When does "kai" explain a preceding noun?

We need a little bit of grammar to unravel the Granville Sharp rule, especially copulative conjunctions, which is also known as additive conjunctions. Copulative conjunctions are words that join other words and indicate the relation of an additional information. Examples are "and", moreover, and "also". Also, "the" is the only definite article in English language.


The Granville Sharp rule states that when two singular common nouns are used to describe a person or thing, and those two nouns are joined by copulative conjunction, and the definite article precedes the first noun but not the second ( or the definite article precedes the second noun but not the first), then both nouns refer to the same thing or person.

As an illustration, consider the sentence:

Yesterday, I saw the founder and the sponsor of the city football club, Mr. Columbus.

The definite article "the" is used twice, before both founder and sponsor. It's clear that Mr. Columbus is founder from the statement above, but the sponsor could be a different person.
Thus, it is not certain if Mr. Columbus is both the founder and the sponsor of the football club.

However, this uncertainty is eliminated in the following reconstruction:

Yesterday, I saw the founder and sponsor of the city football club, Mr. Columbus.

In this case, the definite article “the” is used once, before the first noun. Therefore, Mr. Columbus is both founder and sponsor of the city football club.

In summary, The Granville Sharp rule can be stated as-

Definite article + singular noun + copulative conjunction + singular noun= the same person or thing.

Or in some cases-

singular noun + copulative conjunction + definite article + singular noun = the same person or thing.

We’ll now begin to apply this rule to some Bible verses that are often erroneously taught or understood.

“John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭3:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Notice here that the noun "fire" is not preceded by "the". Therefore, The Holy Ghost and fire mean the same thing.
Fire is a figure of the purification of sin.

I think you are missing something, or perhaps you put me through.

Sharp's rule apply

1. When the object of discreption refers to persons, not things.

2. When the definite article precedes the first noun, not second noun. (Pls post the full rule. When I checked, I didn't see the rule apply to the second noun).

However, when I checked, the definite article didn't even appear before any of the nouns in John 3:5. (Check interlinear)

1 Like

Re: Born Of Water And The Spirit And The "Kai" Connection by Kobojunkie: 2:27pm On Jun 24, 2020
hoopernikao:


He doesnt have to mention a rule for it to be known. Bible student should know the premise of explanation of a subject. When you see a rule applied in literature or language, you should be able to know where it i s coming from. So, OP not stating the name doesnt change the fact that it is drawn from that rule.

Note also that bible student should know rules that guide language of origin of the scriptures. You cant reach an accurate interpretation without proper knowledge of the language. Hence the English bible you read could have been a mess if the translators know nothing about the language construction.

Oh, I am not a Bible student, i just happen to know some of the rules scholars apply whole researching bible texts.

I am a follower of Jesus Christ and that is all that matters to me. When it comes to understanding what is written, I don't seek the "wisdom" of Scholars. No, i never do that anymore. I depend on the understanding that is given us all as far as language comprehension is concerned as that seems enough in most all cases.

1 Like

Re: Born Of Water And The Spirit And The "Kai" Connection by hoopernikao: 5:35pm On Jun 24, 2020
Kobojunkie:


Oh, I am not a Bible student, i just happen to know some of the rules scholars apply whole researching bible texts.

I am a follower of Jesus Christ and that is all that matters to me. When it comes to understanding what is written, I don't seek the "wisdom" of Scholars. No, i never do that anymore. I depend on the understanding that is given us all as far as language comprehension is concerned as that seems enough in most all cases.

Firstly, please stop this. What is the meaning of not being a bible student? Stop bringing sentimental talk into discussion. A bible student mean someone who trust and study the bible. Let's stop always having to colorize or dissect what can't be.

What is the meaning of "I am not a Bible student but Jesus follower". How does that sound to you.
It's a statement that lack sincerity.

Jesus that you follow is it not the bible you study to know what he taught? When you study and learn from the bible text what does that makes you? A banana student?

Don't make discussion hard by going the wrong way of argument.

Secondly, you absolutely got it all wrong in your response. Read it again for yourself. You are only making distinction where it doesn't exist.

You said you don't seek scholars opinion yet you read in English, apply English construction to your understanding of the scriptures. When you see "he went", you won't say "he is coming". Language comprehension you have today were work of some scholars ahead of you. Or you think language and construction just dropped from heaven. Like I said, present things sincerely.

Kindly stop such thought, it don't present you well.

1 Like

Re: Born Of Water And The Spirit And The "Kai" Connection by Kobojunkie: 6:36pm On Jun 24, 2020
hoopernikao:
Firstly, please stop this. What is the meaning of not being a bible student? Stop bringing sentimental talk into discussion. A bible student mean someone who trust and study the bible. Let's stop always having to colorize or dissect what can't be.
What is the meaning of "I am not a Bible student but Jesus follower". How does that sound to you. It's a statement that lack sincerity.
It means just what I said. I am not a bible student. I am a follower of Jesus Christ. grin
hoopernikao:
Jesus that you follow is it not the bible you study to know what he taught? When you study and learn from the bible text what does that makes you? A banana student?
Well, that I read Shakespeare does not make me a Shakespeare scholar, nor does it make me a Shakespeare student. undecided

Anywho, I don't study the Bible ALONE as far as learning about Jesus Christ is concerned. In fact, the very first book God directed me to in response to my earlier questions about Christianity was not the Bible. No, it was an old book on the history of Christianity.
So, yes, I am a follower of Jesus Christ, not the Bible, or your so-called Bible Scholars. grin
hoopernikao:
Don't make discussion hard by going the wrong way of argument.
You are the one making an issue out of my statements, not I.
hoopernikao:
Secondly, you absolutely got it all wrong in your response. Read it again for yourself. You are only making distinction where it doesn't exist.
You are free to pretend it is your place to tell me whether my response about who I am is right or wrong but my truth remains that... my truth. I am not a Bible scholar. I am a follower of Jesus Christ. grin
hoopernikao:
You said you don't seek scholars opinion yet you read in English, apply English construction to your understanding of the scriptures. When you see "he went", you won't say "he is coming". Language comprehension you have today were work of some scholars ahead of you. Or you think language and construction just dropped from heaven. Like I said, present things sincerely.
Kindly stop such thought, it don't present you well.
Correction. I don't seek the opinion of Bible Scholars when I read the Bible, and that remains the case. I simply use the comprehension skills I already have when dissecting the meaning contained in language, any language I am fluent in. grin
Re: Born Of Water And The Spirit And The "Kai" Connection by hoopernikao: 7:05pm On Jun 24, 2020
Kobojunkie:
It means just what I said. I am not a bible student. I am a follower of Jesus Christ. grin
Well, that I read Shakespeare does not make me a Shakespeare scholar, nor does it make me a Shakespeare student. undecided

Anywho, I don't study the Bible ALONE as far as learning about Jesus Christ is concerned. In fact, the very first book God directed me to in response to my earlier questions about Christianity was not the Bible. No, it was an old book on the history of Christianity.
So, yes, I am a follower of Jesus Christ, not the Bible, or your so-called Bible Scholars. grin
You are the one making an issue out of my statements, not I.
You are free to pretend it is your place to tell me whether my response about who I am is right or wrong but my truth remains that... my truth. I am not a Bible scholar. I am a follower of Jesus Christ. grin
Correction. I don't seek the opinion of Bible Scholars when I read the Bible, and that remains the case. I simply use the comprehension skills I already have when dissecting the meaning contained in language, any language I am fluent in. grin

Lol.

You will need to read again and again what you wrote, then hopefully someday you can correct it.

The bible in your hand that you read is translated and interpreted by scholars. You said you dont seek the opinion of scholars when you read the bible. Truly, you cant and dont need to, because their opinion is already fused in what you are reading, their opinion is what is in your hands as English Bible.

Can you see where you are wrong? The bible you read is an opinion of a translator who is a bible scholar who helped you bring the original language to your language premise.
Your comprehension skill is already bounded by what the same scholar you dont seek his opinion wrote for you in English. So, you dont need to seek scholarly opinion, it is already in your hand.

Sadly, when such scholar presents a wrong meaning of words and you read it, you may likely embrace it and say that is what God ministers to you. grin grin. The earlier you get this the better Bro. This is not about forcing you or telling you wrong or right.

And on the bold above in your post above, i hope when you read the bible, its like Shakespeare abi? not that you are studying it as the word of God, because if you do the later, then that is called bible study and that makes you a bible students (you study the bible). The earlier we stop creating contradiction in the face of trying to be different the better.
Re: Born Of Water And The Spirit And The "Kai" Connection by madegreatbygrace(m): 7:40pm On Jun 24, 2020
[[]quote author=hoopernikao post=91030429]

Lol.

You will need to read again and again what you wrote, then hopefully someday you can correct it.

The bible in your hand that you read is translated and interpreted by scholars. You said you dont seek the opinion of scholars when you read the bible. Truly, you cant and dont need to, because their opinion is already fused in what you are reading, their opinion is what is in your hands as English Bible.

Can you see where you are wrong? The bible you read is an opinion of a translator who is a bible scholar who helped you bring the original language to your language premise.
Your comprehension skill is already bounded by what the same scholar you dont seek his opinion wrote for you in English. So, you dont need to seek scholarly opinion, it is already in your hand.

Sadly, when such scholar presents a wrong meaning of words and you read it, you may likely embrace it and say that is what God ministers to you. grin grin. The earlier you get this the better Bro. This is not about forcing you or telling you wrong or right.

And on the bold above in your post above, i hope when you read the bible, its like Shakespeare abi? not that you are studying it as the word of God, because if you do the later, then that is called bible study and that makes you a bible students (you study the bible). The earlier we stop creating contradiction in the face of trying to be different the better.[/b]




To make it worse, scholars don't just translate the Bible, they also interpret.
Re: Born Of Water And The Spirit And The "Kai" Connection by Kobojunkie: 8:07pm On Jun 24, 2020
hoopernikao:

Lol.
You will need to read again and again what you wrote, then hopefully someday you can correct it.

The bible in your hand that you read is translated and interpreted by scholars. You said you dont seek the opinion of scholars when you read the bible. Truly, you cant and dont need to, because their opinion is already fused in what you are reading, their opinion is what is in your hands as English Bible.
Shakespeare's books were also translated to today's English by Scholars, and the opinion of the translators is what many of us read today as well.
hoopernikao:
Can you see where you are wrong? The bible you read is an opinion of a translator who is a bible scholar who helped you bring the original language to your language premise.
Your comprehension skill is already bounded by what the same scholar you dont seek his opinion wrote for you in English. So, you dont need to seek scholarly opinion, it is already in your hand.
Wrong that reading Shakespeare, even as it is available today, does not make me a Shakespeare scholar or a Shakespeare student.? undecided
Or wrong that I don't seek the opinion of Bible Scholars when I read the Bible, and that remains the case. I simply use the comprehension skills I already have when dissecting the meaning contained in language, any language I am fluent in? grin
hoopernikao:
Sadly, when such scholar presents a wrong meaning of words and you read it, you may likely embrace it and say that is what God ministers to you. grin grin. The earlier you get this the better Bro. This is not about forcing you or telling you wrong or right.
So, yes that is why I am a follower of Jesus Christ, not the Bible, or your so-called Bible Scholars. grin
hoopernikao:

And on the bold above in your post above, i hope when you read the bible, its like Shakespeare abi? not that you are studying it as the word of God, because if you do the later, then that is called bible study and that makes you a bible students (you study the bible). The earlier we stop creating contradiction in the face of trying to be different the better.
I read my Bible as I would any other book out there because the bible is itself not the word of God, sorry! ;DI am not a bible student. I am a follower of Jesus Christ. grin

1 Like

Re: Born Of Water And The Spirit And The "Kai" Connection by hoopernikao: 9:10pm On Jun 24, 2020
Kobojunkie:
Shakespeare's books were also translated to today's English by Scholars, and the opinion of the translators is what many of us read today as well.
Wrong that reading Shakespeare, even as it is available today, does not make me a Shakespeare scholar or a Shakespeare student.? undecided
Or wrong that I don't seek the opinion of Bible Scholars when I read the Bible, and that remains the case. I simply use the comprehension skills I already have when dissecting the meaning contained in language, any language I am fluent in? grin
So, yes that is why I am a follower of Jesus Christ, not the Bible, or your so-called Bible Scholars. grin

I read my Bible as I would any other book out there because the bible is itself not the word of God, sorry! ;DI am not a bible student. I am a follower of Jesus Christ. grin

It is well with you.
Re: Born Of Water And The Spirit And The "Kai" Connection by hoopernikao: 10:30pm On Jun 24, 2020
JMAN05:


I think you are missing something, or perhaps you put me through.

Sharp's rule apply

1. When the object of discreption refers to persons, not things.

2. When the definite article precedes the first noun, not second noun. (Pls post the full rule. When I checked, I didn't see the rule apply to the second noun).

However, when I checked, the definite article didn't even appear before any of the nouns in John 3:5. (Check interlinear)


The word used there is pneumatos, it is an inflexion of pnuema. When pneumatos is used it is always expressed with the article "the" in landing language whether present or absent in the transiting language.

It must always be used in a definite term.
Hence when you see the word spirit pnuematos it usually translated as "of the spirit" or just "the spirit" when the article is absent.

Hence when the article is absent it will still be added in the landing language due to the grammatical functions of the word.

You can check other places it is used in the bible.
Re: Born Of Water And The Spirit And The "Kai" Connection by jamesid29(m): 12:23am On Jun 25, 2020
madegreatbygrace:
[[]quote author=hoopernikao post=91030429]

Lol.

You will need to read again and again what you wrote, then hopefully someday you can correct it.

The bible in your hand that you read is translated and interpreted by scholars. You said you dont seek the opinion of scholars when you read the bible. Truly, you cant and dont need to, because their opinion is already fused in what you are reading, their opinion is what is in your hands as English Bible.

Can you see where you are wrong? The bible you read is an opinion of a translator who is a bible scholar who helped you bring the original language to your language premise.
Your comprehension skill is already bounded by what the same scholar you dont seek his opinion wrote for you in English. So, you dont need to seek scholarly opinion, it is already in your hand.

Sadly, when such scholar presents a wrong meaning of words and you read it, you may likely embrace it and say that is what God ministers to you. grin grin. The earlier you get this the better Bro. This is not about forcing you or telling you wrong or right.

And on the bold above in your post above, i hope when you read the bible, its like Shakespeare abi? not that you are studying it as the word of God, because if you do the later, then that is called bible study and that makes you a bible students (you study the bible). The earlier we stop creating contradiction in the face of trying to be different the better.[/b]




To make it worse, scholars don't just translate the Bible, they also interpret.
This is not really true sir or atleast is an oversimplification of the facts.
To be fair there are Bible translations that are purely interpretative in nature like Message translation (Free translation), but the vast majority of translations fall into the dynamic equivalent or literal translation segment ,which try to translate the biblical text as close to the original as possible (albeit to various degree of accuracy).
The goal of translators is to translate(not interpret) the text most especially important with the literal versions like ESV NASB etc. it's true dynamic equivalent might try to give more clarity by using more of a thought-for-thought approach, but we won't call that interpretation in the way most people understand the word interpretation. For instance,where the text literally says "man" but in context was referring to humans in general, a dynamic equivalent translation might use the word "humanity" to remove ambiguity.

Also to remove translator bias(personal opinions) as much as possible most major translations are done by a team of translators from various backgrounds and denominations. They also have editors that check the work of the translation team, a committee to oversee the entire process and several other checks and balances. Truth is the Bible is very important to alot of people and the people who work on translations recognise these as they are Christains themselves, so they do their best present the text as close to the original as possible within the rationale of their translation. You can easily look up the translation team, editors, committee,philosophy, translation process, years it took and so on of most major Bible translations on the publishers website or on the first few pages of the hard cover.
At the end of the day, there are only a handful of major modern translations that are done by one person. I can only think of two the living Bible and the message translation. It's hard to really call them translations though because they are more a deeply paraphrased(more like reading a lecturer's notes than the actual textbook). Doesn't mean they are not good just that the rationale behind the translation in such a way that 21st century readers can connect to biblical story in a more contemporary way. Even at that, the message Bible still has alot of OT an NT scholars that reviewed it before it got published.I personally like the message translation rendering.

Sadly, when such scholar presents a wrong meaning of words and you read it, you may likely embrace it and say that is what God ministers to you. grin grin. The earlier you get this the better Bro. This is not about forcing you or telling you wrong or right.
It's quite true there is no such thing as a perfect translation and translation teams have a really hard job on their hands, like how to accurately translate a particular phrase or word, which mss variant best reflect the actual wordings and a myriads of other difficult task, there are two things I think are important to keep in mind
1) No major translation regardless of shortcomings, affects/distorts any of the core tenets of the Christain faith. Different translations might render the same phrase differently and there are sometimes some actual mistranslations(or could be better translated)but on the whole the core tenets are never affected. Bible translations do the job just fine within human and language limitation but I believe where the major problems come from is how we as readers accurately interpret the scriptures.
2) When we read the Bible we are meeting a real person. Like a teacher I admire once said, once you stop meeting the person of the risen Jesus in the scriptures, something has short circuited and you need to get back to base. The Bible is a living book and regardless of language limitations or translation mistakes, God can and will still speak to people through it. KJV with its mistakes has been a source of inspiration and hope for millions of people for over 400yrs and till date is still a solid translation.

A quick aside: I use major translations here to differentiate between translations that stay within the confines of orthodox Christianity and those done by Christain sects like the "new world translation" and the Mormons Bible. These sectarian types of translations have their own agendas outside of the Christianity so I try not to lump them together and they usually distort core tenets of the faith.

I'm also pretty sure you probably know most of what I wrote but I just wanted to give a quick clarification for others who might come across the post and might not know.
Re: Born Of Water And The Spirit And The "Kai" Connection by jamesid29(m): 1:41am On Jun 25, 2020
hoopernikao:


The word used there is pneumatos, it is an inflexion of pnuema. When pneumatos is used it is always expressed with the article "the" in landing language whether present or absent in the transiting language.

It must always be used in a definite term.
Hence when you see the word spirit pnuematos it usually translated as "of the spirit" or just "the spirit" when the article is absent.

Hence when the article is absent it will still be added in the landing language due to the grammatical functions of the word.

You can check other places it is used in the bible.
Just to chip in a bit, I believe JMAN05 is correct here sir.
One of the limitations of the rule is that the article has to precede the first noun in the actual greek text and not just the translation.

1 Like

Re: Born Of Water And The Spirit And The "Kai" Connection by hoopernikao: 8:37am On Jun 25, 2020
jamesid29:

Just to chip in a bit, I believe JMAN05 is correct here sir.
One of the limitations of the rule is that the article has to precede the first noun in the actual greek text and not just the translation.

If you read my post again. I didn't address the rule. I addressed the word usage and meaning it carried.

Secondly, as I stated earlier, the usage of the article in Greek are premised on word construction and it's word type. Sharp rule gave cases for the base words not the inflexions. Hence inflexion are translated to base case to apply sharp rule.

Have you checked all text the word was used. That will be key to get what am saying.

1 Like

Re: Born Of Water And The Spirit And The "Kai" Connection by hoopernikao: 9:16am On Jun 25, 2020
jamesid29:

This is not really true sir or atleast is an oversimplification of the facts.
To be fair there are Bible translations that are purely interpretative in nature like Message translation (Free translation), but the vast majority of translations fall into the dynamic equivalent or literal translation segment ,which try to translate the biblical text as close to the original as possible (albeit to various degree of accuracy).
The goal of translators is to translate(not interpret) the text most especially important with the literal versions like ESV NASB etc. it's true dynamic equivalent might try to give more clarity by using more of a thought-for-thought approach, but we won't call that interpretation in the way most people understand the word interpretation. For instance,where the text literally says "man" but in context was referring to humans in general, a dynamic equivalent translation might use the word "humanity" to remove ambiguity.


Note firstly, that what is being address is not about not seeing Jesus in study or God speaking through his word. That is a given when you feed on scripture.

But this is not a leeway to ignore the text meaning or interpretation. When a text is given a different meaning from its original intent, it naturally looses its inspiration. Why? The readers perception is affected. Your proper understanding of the scriptures is a factor in your proper understanding of God and Christ.


Secondly, Every form of translations are interpretation in themselves. If you ask a translator in any field, you will be told.

Now to the bible, only few translations adhere strictly to almost word for word translation. Mostly are adjusted due to language barrier. Hence you cannot absolve any translation of interpretation.

This language barrier naturally impose on you to take a stand and interpret. Interpret here will mean, you deciding based on your knowledge the best word that fits a passage.

Let me give you and example.

The word en in Greek have variety meaning in English. En can be by, in, with etc.

When a translator see such word, he will be the one to decide what fits. Now the challenge is, this works well for text that are clear. But this can affect readers mind for text that aren't.

John 1:1 En arche. In the beginning

Using IN is here is quite clear as using BY or WITH won't flow.

BY the beginning
WITH the beginning

So best word is IN

Now see the case of 1 Corinthians 14 where translators used IN and WITH interchangeable where the word EN occurred.

Paul used EN laleo glossa at several places.

Now, translator will have to interpret which.

Vs 16
16Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit...

Vs 19

19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.


In the two cases above, we have same word EN.
The choice of the translator carries a lot of weight in English which has led to many misinterpretation and wrong expression

KJV opt for WITH and IN respectively. That is a choice of the translator. And that simply is interpretative.

I could have used BY in both texts or use IN in both or use WITH in both and they will all still make sense in English. But mostly likely different meaning to the reader.

There are several cases of such.


Note also, that by the virtue of presenting bible in chapters and verses alone is interpretive in nature. The original weren't. This is one of the root of many wrong revelation and teaching today. It gives room to lifting scriptures out of its context and use.

So, even though the translator will put all best to get as near as possible to the original language. It's word will still be at best a form of interpretation. This doesn't make their work feeble but only inform the reader to be cautious.
Re: Born Of Water And The Spirit And The "Kai" Connection by jamesid29(m): 9:51am On Jun 25, 2020
hoopernikao:


Read my post again. I didn't address the rule. I addressed the word usage and meaning it carried.

I'm not really sure what to do with this sir because I'm not sure whether you are agreeing with the OP's usage or not.
Secondly, as I stated earlier, the usage of the article in Greek are premised on word construction and it's word type. Sharp rule gave cases for the base words not the inflexions. Hence inflexion are translated to base case to apply sharp rule.

Have you checked all text the word was used. That will be key to get what am saying.
That's not quite correct sir. Dan Wallace has a pretty good and well detailed article on the subject matter
https://bible.org/article/sharp-redivivus-reexamination-granville-sharp-rule

The sharp rule has a very specific use case so it has a couple of limitations, one of which requires the article to be present in front the first noun regardless of what case it is in.
"When the copulative KAI connects two nouns of the same case, if the article HO or any of its cases precedes the first of the said nouns or participles, and is not repeated before the second noun or participle, the latter always relates to the same person that is expressed or described by the first noun or participle".

The article must be the original text in any of its cases, if not the rule breaks down. I did check places where we are sure the rule applies to confirm.

You can read through the article I posted, it's one of the most detailed take on the subject.
In either case sir, i'm guessing you know the rule won't still apply in the OP's case even if their was an article present.

1 Like

Re: Born Of Water And The Spirit And The "Kai" Connection by Nobody: 11:11am On Jun 25, 2020
hoopernikao:


The word used there is pneumatos, it is an inflexion of pnuema. When pneumatos is used it is always expressed with the article "the" in landing language whether present or absent in the transiting language.

It must always be used in a definite term.
Hence when you see the word spirit pnuematos it usually translated as "of the spirit" or just "the spirit" when the article is absent.

Hence when the article is absent it will still be added in the landing language due to the grammatical functions of the word.

You can check other places it is used in the bible.

I think the word that appeared there is still pneuma (strong 4151). It is from root pneo (strong 4154). Please check it up.

It doesn't go with the definite article the way you said it. That article in John 3:5 is inserted based on doctrinal understanding/bias. It shouldn't be there if we follow Greek literally/grammatically.

The word also appeared in Luke 1:80; Matt 5:3. Check up a concordance. Definite article didn't appear in those places.

The fact is that even the other points I mentioned above shows the weakness of your premise.

1 Like

Re: Born Of Water And The Spirit And The "Kai" Connection by jamesid29(m): 11:37am On Jun 25, 2020
[quote author=hoopernikao post=91047817]
Note firstly, that what is being address is not about not seeing Jesus in study or God speaking through his word. That is a given when you feed on scripture.

I know sir... Like I tried to clarify at the end of my write-up, I was pretty sure you already knew most of what I was saying but I just wanted to state somethings explicitly for others who might misinterpret one or two things. I personally believe people need to be able to trust their Bible.

[quote]But this is not a leeway to ignore the text meaning or interpretation. When a text is given a different meaning from its original intent, it naturally looses its inspiration
I personally would not agree with this. Most translations try to stick to the intent hence why I kept using the word major translation as opposed to translation done by specific groups with agendas outside of the core tenets of the faith.

Secondly, Every form of translations are interpretation in themselves. If you ask a translator in any field, you will be told.

Now to the bible, only few translations adhere strictly to almost word for word translation. Mostly are adjusted due to language barrier. Hence you cannot absolve any translation of interpretation.
I think the major bone of contention is the usage of the word intepret. I believe you are using the word to mean "finding the best word that carries the right intent of the text as opposed to a one size fits all". I believe that might be a bit misleading in alot of cases because the popular understanding of the phrase "interpretation of scriptures" means to "breakdown the text and explain it". That's more in the region of commentaries,study notes, lecture series etc.
One of the reasons(out of many) biblical translation is very hard is because there are places where there is no suitable English word that carry the same intent. Other times it might be there are words that nobody is sure what they mean or what they meant in the first century. In some of these cases, because translators have a very limited leeway in expatiating on the text, they just have to find a word or phrase that captures it to the best of their ability.

This is where commentaries and so on come in to give a more holistic picture, since they can write pages upon pages on just one word or phrase.

I could have used BY in both texts or use IN in both or use WITH in both and they will all still make sense in English. But mostly likely different meaning to the reader.
Like I pointed out in my previous post, mistakes do happen because we are talking about a 2000yr old language. Also like I pointed out above, there are words that can be ambiguous or words that are still under debate or phrases noone is sure what it actually meant in 1ad. Couple that with multiple mss variant, for sure translators would have to make choices. I speak another heavily inflected language similar to greek grammar in terms of structure and I know how hard it is to translate from it to English, especially when the word has multiple meanings in English or worse there's no English word that would capture it accurately. If that is happening in a Lang that is still extant, the complexity is lot greater for a Lang spoken thousands of yrs back. To add to the difficulty, when translating from one language to another language, you're not just translating words but also translating cultures so even word for word translations have to make choices.
I'm not saying translator don't have to make choices, what I'm saying is interpretation of scripture carries a specific meaning in our everyday lives so we have to be careful or be explicit on how we use it so as not to confuse or give the wrong meaning to someone else.

Note also, that by the virtue of presenting bible in chapters and verses alone is interpretive in nature. The original weren't. This is one of the root of many wrong revelation and teaching today. It gives room to lifting scriptures out of its context and use.
I also would not personally agree with this. I get what you are saying but People have been misusing and lifting Scripture out of context long before the there was verse and chapter numbering(right from the days of the early church).

So, even though the translator will put all best to get as near as possible to the original language. It's word will still be at best a form of interpretation. This doesn't make their work feeble but only inform the reader to be cautious
Translation would be a better fit at the bolded. Like I mentioned in my previous post, there is no perfect translation and I really do understand your point on how a certain translation might go about affecting how one interprets the scriptures but the main point I'll like to make is, regardless of word choices ,no major translation distorts any of the core tenets of the faith. People should have like two or three Bible translations handy to get a more holistic picture ,especially for hard passages but other than that most people would do just fine with whichever translation they stick.
I think we should be more concerned about outside misinformation especially in this social media age and this new age thinking that one can read the Bible in isolation without the learning from others and form a theology around personal understanding. Also more church leaders should start prioritising having a deeper understanding of the language and culture of the Bible ,so they can help their members interpret the scriptures better.
Just my own opinion though

PS: I understand one or two languages well enough but greek is not one of them as I don't have any formal training in it. Everything I know is things I've picked up here and there. Just wanted to make that clear so I don't pass across the wrong impression

Modified
Re: Born Of Water And The Spirit And The "Kai" Connection by madegreatbygrace(m): 11:47am On Jun 25, 2020
But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him.”
‭‭John‬ ‭4:23‬ ‭NKJV‬‬





The above is also often misapplied.

Should one worship God in both Spirit and truth?

Or should one worship God in Spirit only?

Applying this rule, Jesus was basically saying to the woman at the well that, " God is a Spirit: and they that worship Him must worship Him in Spirit which is the truth (reality)."

This is even clearer when we consider context.

The woman had a wrong mindset of what worship should be.


Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, and you Jews say that in Jerusalem is the place where one ought to worship.”
‭‭John‬ ‭4:20‬ ‭NKJV‬‬


According to her, the acceptability of worship is dependent on location. The real worshipper is the one that worships in a certain place- on this mountain.

Here comes the refutal :

Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father.”
‭‭John‬ ‭4:21‬ ‭NKJV‬‬


That's nicely put, eh?

So the time is coming- as a matter of fact, it has come- when what you're called will not matter and where you go to worship will not matter.

Then the bombshell:


But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him.”
‭‭John‬ ‭4:23‬ ‭NKJV‬‬


Notice the "true worshippers". He gave a definition- those that worship God in Spirit.
Then for the sake of emphasis, He repeats Himself, " those that worship the Father in Spirit are the real worshippers- they worship in truth.

Mr. Op, are you now saying worship in the old testament was fake and unacceptable.

Not really.

Worship in the old testament was a shadow of what is obtainable under the new covenant because it was based on the old testament laws. It was indeed faulty and had to be jettisoned.

For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭8:7‬ ‭NKJV‬‬



For God's utmost desire was for the temple to dwell in man.

So here, the truth explains the Spirit.
Re: Born Of Water And The Spirit And The "Kai" Connection by madegreatbygrace(m): 2:48pm On Jun 25, 2020
jamesid29:


PS: I understand one or two languages well enough but greek is not one of them as I don't have any formal training in it. Everything I know is things I've picked up here and there. Just wanted to make that clear so I don't pass across the wrong impression.



That's the spirit brother. I love you.







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Re: Born Of Water And The Spirit And The "Kai" Connection by hoopernikao: 7:52pm On Jun 25, 2020
jamesid29:


PS: I understand one or two languages well enough but greek is not one of them as I don't have any formal training in it. Everything I know is things I've picked up here and there. Just wanted to make that clear so I don't pass across the wrong impression

Okay.
I will have to leave this out so as to avoid us leaving the core of the discussion here.

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