₦airaland Forum

Why do we Christians argue with ourselves every time on any issue especially here on Nairaland.

Can't we just complement what the other person has said instead of tearing down the other person's point?

chatinent:
It takes more than just words.


Do you know Jesus also said that some people will live forever on earth?

Where did Jesus say this?

The fervent community Church. A place to be

Buliwyf:
To become a fervent Christian believer, all you need is to suspend the use of your brain. Because the moment you start using your brain there is no way you will believe any of the mythological nonsense written in the bible.

How can a functional brain reconcile with the fact that a supposedly all-knowing god put a tree with a fruit that wasn't supposed to be eaten in the same garden as the creatures who were not supposed to eat it and then turns around to blame them for eating it even though he is all-knowing?

How can a functional brain reconcile with the fact that the same god didn't just forgive the creatures after they ate the forbidden fruit since he is all powerful but instead devices an elaborate plan to impregnate a woman with himself thereby cuckolding another man and then sacrificing that himself to himself in order to forgive his creatures who he has been creating since the first guys ate the fruit knowing fully well they will all fall into sin?

How can a functional brain come to grips with the fact that the supposedly all knowing and all powerful god didn't decide to wire the truth into our brains so we know the truth about him like we know to drink water and eat food but instead he decided to leave humans at the mercy of religious influences of our parents and environment such that a person is likely to believe in the same gods believed by people around him and defend that god vehemently? He couldn't even appear to everyone everywhere and teach them the truth about him at once instead he chose some illiterate goat herders in a Middle Eastern desert to teach his ways and then waited for thousands of years for some conquering Romans to adopt the religion, adulterate it with their own beliefs and sometimes spread it by the edge of the sword burning books and killing people that disagreed with them.

How can a functional brain believe in a god who can't even tell a straight story? With so many contradictions in the same story told in different places in the bible even though the same god inspired the different writers yet they couldn't get basic facts like counts and sequence of events accurately. Even the resurrection of Jesus, the foundation on which Christianity is built, has contradictory claims in the bible. That aside, neither modern historians nor the contemporaries of those stories can corroborate any of the tall tales in there.

**Sigh** Bottom line is you can't be a Christian and use your brain simultaneously. One has to be shut off for the other.

You have aptly expressed some of the fundamental issues I also have with religion. Many stories in the Bible portray the so called God as a wicked, unreasonable being with limited power and intelligence, as opposed to the benevolent, omniscient and omnipotent being he is generally acclaimed to be. Religion seems to be nothing but human invention.
This is why I'm now trying to seek the truth about life and existence elsewhere: Is there any meaning to life? Is there a God? Is there life after death? How did an infinite universe come about?
I would be glad if you could help me answer such questions logically and satisfactorily.

sonmvayina:
But he is the one who creates them...

is them evil

evil... It...

Becoming a farvent Christian leads you to becoming a farvent liar, because you'll get used to seeing truth and ignoring it to uphold lies, confusion.

BlueAngel444:
is them evil

evil... It...

So who creates it...?

Sunnyvision:
A fervent Christain is someone who is saved by the cleansing power of the blood of Jesus christ and work by faith in the spirit of God. In order to be the Christain God want us to become we have to live in obedience to the word of God, also you have to separate yourself from the world so as not to be influence by it. 1 John 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. 2:17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

I will outline some points to observe to become a fervent Christain.

Prayer: a christain that does not pray is walking a wrong part for the devil to operate in is life, there is no limit for someone to pray we need to pray always as long as we have the free time, even if you do not have one, create a time to pray.
Prayer and fasting is essential for a believer to push or elevate in the spirit, we need it in order to connect to God, also prayer and fasting is needed to wrestle and over demons, addictions, bondage from satan e.t.c. mark 9: 28,29; Ephesians 6:10-18; 2 Corinthians 10: 3-5.

Fellowship: fellowship with other believers is very important don't say I can serve God on my own if you think or follow that way you will lack spiritual improvement in working with God. Get a Bible believing chruch that preach the sound doctrine of salvation, holiness, sanctification e.t.c.
Also commune with like minded believer of faith to the word of God. In Acts 2:42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers. 2:43 And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles. 2:44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common; 2:45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need. 2:46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart, 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved. 2 corinthain 6: 14; 1 john 1: 1-7.

Reading the Bible: for you to growth spiritually you need to read, meditate and practice the word of God. the word of God is for our example, correction, instruction and the purpose of God for our life. The more you read and obey the word of God the more you growth spiritually in wisdom and understanding.
2 Timothy 2:15, Psalm 1 : 1-3; psalm 119:130; Joshua 1:8.

Will of God: this is when we are obedience to God's word and instructions, it is also the standard of holiness in a believers life. Paul the apostle walk with God and was obedience to God despite trials, persecution, tribulation and so on, he stood for the truth and preach the word of God. Acts 26: 13-20; 1 Corinthians 1: 1-27; Romans 8: 1-14.


Praise and Worship: it is very important we add praise and worship in our every day life to God Almighty it make God move in a mighty way, also when we praise God we are equally thanking Him for is goodness, blessing, wonders and more.
In time of trials, persecution, distress and problem, praise and worship to God relieve us from situation we find ourself.
Acts 16: 22-26; 1 Peter 1: 6-8; judges 5: 1-3; Exodus 15: 1-12.


This is an inclusion: anger, bitterness, hatred, murmur,
Derogative words to the church of God, people or your neighbors; sinful addiction, sinful mindset and those things that you think don't matter but are sinful can interrupt your access or connection with God. stay blessed and we are able to overcome don't be discouraged, distracted we will make it to heaven.

This is a short message and i believe it as help answer the question of many who seek answers.One way to be what God desire us to become is when we surrender to the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ by repenting from our sin. 2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Op, it's "christian", not "christain". Get your pronunciation and tenses right, and stop embarrasing fellow believers.

TruthSeeker1:
You have aptly expressed some of the fundamental issues I also have with religion. Many stories in the Bible portray the so called God as a wicked, unreasonable being with limited power and intelligence, as opposed to the benevolent, omniscient and omnipotent being he is generally acclaimed to be. Religion seems to be nothing but human invention.
This is why I'm now trying to seek the truth about life and existence elsewhere: Is there any meaning to life? Is there a God? Is there life after death? How did an infinite universe come about?
I would be glad if you could help me answer such questions logically and satisfactorily.

You can't get all the answers in one day...observe and experiment...

sonmvayina:
You can't get all the answers in one day...observe and experiment...

Experiment?

Buliwyf:
To become a fervent Christian believer, all you need is to suspend the use of your brain. Because the moment you start using your brain there is no way you will believe any of the mythological nonsense written in the bible.

How can a functional brain reconcile with the fact that a supposedly all-knowing god put a tree with a fruit that wasn't supposed to be eaten in the same garden as the creatures who were not supposed to eat it and then turns around to blame them for eating it even though he is all-knowing?

How can a functional brain reconcile with the fact that the same god didn't just forgive the creatures after they ate the forbidden fruit since he is all powerful but instead devices an elaborate plan to impregnate a woman with himself thereby cuckolding another man and then sacrificing that himself to himself in order to forgive his creatures who he has been creating since the first guys ate the fruit knowing fully well they will all fall into sin?

How can a functional brain come to grips with the fact that the supposedly all knowing and all powerful god didn't decide to wire the truth into our brains so we know the truth about him like we know to drink water and eat food but instead he decided to leave humans at the mercy of religious influences of our parents and environment such that a person is likely to believe in the same gods believed by people around him and defend that god vehemently? He couldn't even appear to everyone everywhere and teach them the truth about him at once instead he chose some illiterate goat herders in a Middle Eastern desert to teach his ways and then waited for thousands of years for some conquering Romans to adopt the religion, adulterate it with their own beliefs and sometimes spread it by the edge of the sword burning books and killing people that disagreed with them.

How can a functional brain believe in a god who can't even tell a straight story? With so many contradictions in the same story told in different places in the bible even though the same god inspired the different writers yet they couldn't get basic facts like counts and sequence of events accurately. Even the resurrection of Jesus, the foundation on which Christianity is built, has contradictory claims in the bible. That aside, neither modern historians nor the contemporaries of those stories can corroborate any of the tall tales in there.

**Sigh** Bottom line is you can't be a Christian and use your brain simultaneously. One has to be shut off for the other.

For it is written: “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, And bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.”

Thank you, Almighty father. ❤

Sunnyvision:
A fervent Christain is someone who is saved by the cleansing power of the blood of Jesus christ and work by faith in the spirit of God. In order to be the Christain God want us to become we have to live in obedience to the word of God, also you have to separate yourself from the world so as not to be influence by it. 1 John 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. 2:17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

I will outline some points to observe to become a fervent Christain.

Prayer: a christain that does not pray is walking a wrong part for the devil to operate in is life, there is no limit for someone to pray we need to pray always as long as we have the free time, even if you do not have one, create a time to pray.
Prayer and fasting is essential for a believer to push or elevate in the spirit, we need it in order to connect to God, also prayer and fasting is needed to wrestle and over demons, addictions, bondage from satan e.t.c. mark 9: 28,29; Ephesians 6:10-18; 2 Corinthians 10: 3-5.

Fellowship: fellowship with other believers is very important don't say I can serve God on my own if you think or follow that way you will lack spiritual improvement in working with God. Get a Bible believing chruch that preach the sound doctrine of salvation, holiness, sanctification e.t.c.
Also commune with like minded believer of faith to the word of God. In Acts 2:42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers. 2:43 And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles. 2:44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common; 2:45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need. 2:46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart, 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved. 2 corinthain 6: 14; 1 john 1: 1-7.

Reading the Bible: for you to growth spiritually you need to read, meditate and practice the word of God. the word of God is for our example, correction, instruction and the purpose of God for our life. The more you read and obey the word of God the more you growth spiritually in wisdom and understanding.
2 Timothy 2:15, Psalm 1 : 1-3; psalm 119:130; Joshua 1:8.

Will of God: this is when we are obedience to God's word and instructions, it is also the standard of holiness in a believers life. Paul the apostle walk with God and was obedience to God despite trials, persecution, tribulation and so on, he stood for the truth and preach the word of God. Acts 26: 13-20; 1 Corinthians 1: 1-27; Romans 8: 1-14.


Praise and Worship: it is very important we add praise and worship in our every day life to God Almighty it make God move in a mighty way, also when we praise God we are equally thanking Him for is goodness, blessing, wonders and more.
In time of trials, persecution, distress and problem, praise and worship to God relieve us from situation we find ourself.
Acts 16: 22-26; 1 Peter 1: 6-8; judges 5: 1-3; Exodus 15: 1-12.


This is an inclusion: anger, bitterness, hatred, murmur,
Derogative words to the church of God, people or your neighbors; sinful addiction, sinful mindset and those things that you think don't matter but are sinful can interrupt your access or connection with God. stay blessed and we are able to overcome don't be discouraged, distracted we will make it to heaven.

This is a short message and i believe it as help answer the question of many who seek answers.One way to be what God desire us to become is when we surrender to the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ by repenting from our sin. 2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

its not forcing anybody, if u know and u are moved by this words, u will know the right thing to do, so pls stop accusing and discriminating each other, nobody is perfect, we all need GOD GRACE to overcome and surely at last we will make it

Great one

light099:
You almost made a whole lot of sense here, except that, like I always say, one sad news in life is, you would have to always believe in one shiit or another. No clean sheet here. There isn't any side devoid of shiits.

actually you can throw all religious nonsense in the thrascan where they belong without holding onto any.

It's either you believe a big sky daddy or big bang daddy.
It's either you believe a dust man, rib woman, talking snake, talking donkey or you believe fishes growing legs, hands and transforming into apes, monkeys and talking men.
It's either you believe a stationary sun or you believe a self-creating solar system that fashioned out itself.
It's either you believe the virgin birth or you believe a mysterious mitochondrial woman from Africa, who solo-impregnated herself and gave birth to all humanity.
You can believe how an inanimate, unintelligent universe created intelligent, animate organisms and humans, how a universe without eyes made a masterpiece of arts in nature and landscapes.

This is the usual mistake Christians like you make out of ignorance. believing that one must either believe in Bible creation myth or big bang theory. this is wrong on so many levels because there are many creation myths with each probably having as much chances of being as true as any so you've just committed the False Dilemma Fallacy

Even if we do assume the choices are only between those two you are highly oblivious of a fact that pulls your point apart like a house of cards. Big Bang theory has NOTHING to do with atheism. Big Bang was first proposed by a theist, Georges Lemaître , who was a Belgian physicist and Roman catholic priest ; the Pope at the time, The Pius XII, even wanted to make it part of the Christian doctrine as "proof of god"

How an inanimate, unintelligent universe sculpted a masterpiece human figure and it knows two eyes are better than one eye, and the right colors for the iris and pupil, women should have softer bodies than men, women should have thinner voices, women should have bigger asses and curves, and men should have deeks while women should have pussies. Isn't that so easy to believe? The same way, there are no engineers in the world, cars just woke up one day and designed themselves and fabricated themselves?

But the engineers used a material that's already existing to make the cars, right? we see them turn iron ore into metals which made the engines. How did your god design something? where did the materials he used in designing come from? Oh! I forgot he just spawned everything out of thin air!

This issue of the universe is always a tricky one lad, when you view life from a parochial, limited perspective, it's easy to feel proud and come here to bash religion and drop all those stuffs you posted, but when you're enlightened, you know this issue is a vast, complicated one and it's so hard to feel too pompous like you know everything while in the real sense you don't know shiit.

I, apparently, know a lot better than you do

hopefulLandlord:
l actually you can throw all religious nonsense in the thrascan where they belong without holding onto any.

They do not belong to the trash.

This is the usual mistake Christians like you make out of ignorance. believing that one must either believe in Bible creation myth or big bang theory. this is wrong on so many levels because there are many creation myths with each probably having as much chances of being as true as any so you've just committed the False Dilemma Fallacy
Even if we do assume the choices are only between those two you are highly oblivious of a fact that pulls your point apart like a house of cards. Big Bang theory has NOTHING to do with atheism. Big Bang was first proposed by a theist, Georges Lemaître , who was a Belgian physicist and Roman catholic priest ; the Pope at the time, The Pius XII, even wanted to make it part of the Christian doctrine as "proof of god"

I can't remember if I ever cared about who brought the big bang theory but I do remember every learned atheist I met held on to it. There must necessarily be a ground for wherever you stand. But here you're, you don't believe in myths and fairy-tales, yet you don't wanna accept a scientific theory. So what do you accept? Or are you just a clown stuck in the middle of nowhere?

But the engineers used a material that's already existing to make the cars, right? we see them turn iron ore into metals which made the engines. How did your god design something? where did the materials he used in designing come from? Oh! I forgot he just spawned everything out of thin air!

The materials did come from somewhere which neither can any atheist say. Or if God didn't make the materials, did an initially inexistent universe suddenly sparked, started expanding and creating itself the exact right way?
One very important fact you're yet to learn in your whole atheist experiment is that, those scientists who held unto big bang/evolution opinion nonetheless still believe that, at some point, there were 'miracles' which made things happen the exact right ways and not otherwise. Only unlearned atheist wannabes who don't really know shiit about what this vast universe entails display proud ignorance of talking bullshiits.
Even though it's impossible but perhaps it might still be possible for any low budget, unfunctional universe to create itself, but not this kind of universe we live in.

I, apparently, know a lot better than you do

Sadly, you don't know shiit, you're more of a theoretical wannable atheist, not a practical, scientific one. You obviously have a lot to learn. When you start learning real stuffs, that is the point you begin to doubt if this kind of universe can really exist by itself by accident. You have a whole lot to learn son.

light099:
They do not belong to the trash.

they do!

I can't remember if I ever cared about who brought the big bang theory but I do remember every learned atheist I met held on to it.

So? does that make it an atheistic claim? there are even Christians that accept the big bang to be true. you were just led astray by the types of atheists you met which made you hastily conclude wrongly.

There must necessarily be a ground for wherever you stand. But here you're, you don't believe in myths and fairy-tales, yet you don't wanna accept a scientific theory. So what do you accept? Or are you just a clown stuck in the middle of nowhere?

why do I have to accept one or the other? why can't I admit ignorance and try to find out on my own?

The materials did come from somewhere which neither can any atheist say. Or if God didn't make the materials, did an initially inexistent universe suddenly sparked, started expanding and creating itself the exact right way?

you can't even know when your own point is being countered. you're saying engineers design cars etc. I'm countering it by stating engineers never created what they used to design the car. those materials were already existing so using engineers as a point to buttress your imaginary friend's hypothesis is a disservice to him.

One very important fact you're yet to learn in your whole atheist experiment is that, those scientists who held unto big bang/evolution opinion nonetheless still believe that, at some point, there were 'miracles' which made things happen the exact right ways and not otherwise. Only unlearned atheist wannabes who don't really know shiit about what this vast universe entails display proud ignorance of talking bullshiits.
Even though it's impossible but perhaps it might still be possible for any low budget, unfunctional universe to create itself, but not this kind of universe we live in.

But your God who's even more complex than the universe doesn't have an origin? or who created god who then created the universe?

Sadly, you don't know shiit, you're more of a theoretical wannable atheist, not a practical, scientific one. You obviously have a lot to learn. When you start learning real stuffs, that is the point you begin to doubt if this kind of universe can really exist by itself by accident. You have a whole lot to learn son.

where exactly have I claimed the universe came about by accident? you're committing the straw man fallacy

hopefulLandlord:
they do!

So? does that make it an atheistic claim? there are even Christians that accept the big bang to be true. you were just led astray by the types of atheists you met which made you hastily conclude wrongly.
why do I have to accept one or the other? why can't I admit ignorance and try to find out on my own?
you can't even know when your own point is being countered. you're saying engineers design cars etc. I'm countering it by stating engineers never created what they used to design the car. those materials were already existing so using engineers as a point to buttress your imaginary friend's hypothesis is a disservice to him. But your God who's even more complex than the universe doesn't have an origin? or who created god who then created the universe?

where exactly have I claimed the universe came about by accident? you're committing the straw man fallacy

It's impossible for nothing to exist!!!!
So, the universe never had to create itself!!!!
It's just something that exists among infinite things!!!!!
Concerning its origin,you shouldn't ask what existed before it.
You should ask how things existed before it.
I believe the way things existed were just different or they just involved a different arrangement of particles exactly where the universe is.
In other words, the universe was something else before!!!!!
But nobody was there to give it a name!!!!!
So it's the same particles that cannot be created or destroyed that keep forming different patterns as they move with no direction!!!!!!
There are other things outside the universe that also form different patterns!!!!!!!
Ultimately, the formation of patterns for no reason has no beginning and it will never end since there are infinite particles!!!!!!

light099 I'm still awaiting your reply

hopefulLandlord:
light099 I'm still awaiting your reply

Imagine! I've been here all the while refreshing my mention, waiting for your reply. Only to see it now that you had replied since. Still surprised how your reply was able to slip past my notice, seems you're getting a little tricky with the way you quote me.

Wait for my 'robust reply' later in the day, I gat to attend to some issues at the moment.

hopefulLandlord:
they do!

They do don't

So? does that make it an atheistic claim? there are even Christians that accept the big bang to be true. you were just led astray by the types of atheists you met which made you hastily conclude wrongly.

So? Where did I say it is an atheistic claim?
Nonetheless, since big bang/evolution are the only scientific alternative to the popular creation myths, all atheists have no other fancy option aside those. Who goes about asking if an atheist accept big bang or not? Except for wannabes and clowns like you, I never seen any real atheist who argued when associated with big bang.

why do I have to accept one or the other? why can't I admit ignorance and try to find out on my own?

In that case, you're neither a theist nor atheist. You're just a confused entity on a lifetime journey, in search of the truth. As such it's a bit dopey to even make any argument for now, when you're still in the journey of finding out.

You can't even know when your own point is being countered. you're saying engineers design cars etc. I'm countering it by stating engineers never created what they used to design the car. those materials were already existing so using engineers as a point to buttress your imaginary friend's hypothesis is a disservice to him.

Nah! you aren't catching up with the simple logic. Natural laws are universal and apply to all. It's same logic and laws at play in every stage.
'A baker used 'already existing' baking powder to make some dough'. At that level, the powder is the 'raw material' for making the dough but take a step back in the chain, you'll discover that the powder itself is a finished product of some 'raw material', take another step back in the chain, the 'raw materials' too are finished products of some other 'raw materials'.
Not like the baking powder has a mind and power of it's own to produce itself for the baker who needs it.
Same way, the car is a raw material and finished product fabricated by some mind and power/energy; the 'existing ' metals used in making the cars are also raw materials and finished product made by some mind and power.
It goes on.

But your God who's even more complex than the universe doesn't have an origin? or who created god who then created the universe?

It's simple logic son.
In a scientific/logical world around us, we know things don't start existing on their own. It's simple logic we see around us everyday. An artificial flower which has no ability to grow needs some intelligent mind and power to fabricate it. If so, does a living flower design itself, gave itself life, color and ability? Obviously not. Except for a dumb fellow, we all know things don't work that way. Self existing/creating universe is beyond the scope of logic and scientific reality. In natural logic and laws, it takes a mind with ability to design, create and fabricate something else.

From a spiritual perspective, a God can miraculously exist. Since spiritual is combination of logic, ordinary, extraordinary, normal and supernatural, do you question a God existing supernaturally? It's all within the scope of spiritual reality. In Spiritual and magical logic, anything is obtainable.
A person painting with just a black crayon on white canvas can only produce black and white art, but someone using all colors can produce any/every color of arts. You can't use only black and claim to produce multicolored or orange color art, it's impossible! And you can't challenge someone using all the colors if he/she produced a blue color arts, it's possible! Get the simple logic son.

Where exactly have I claimed the universe came about by accident? you're committing the straw man fallacy

Common. You keep sounding like a learner all day long.
'Fred is not dead.' - Do you need any sophisticated research to interpret what this statement means is that Fred is alive? Is that a fallacy? Every smart entity knows that if Fred isn't dead, that simply means he's alive. Simple!
If no intelligent God created the world, if the world existed itself, that simply means it's existing by accident. The creative mind has the purpose of creation. Manufacturers of phones have the purpose of profit, communication etc in mind, but assuming the phone existed on it's own, it has no mind or consciousness to have a purpose for it's own existence, so it's existing by accident. Anyone who holds such opinion simply says it's existing by accident. It's simple stuff.
You still have a lot to learn.

light099:
So? Where did I say it is an atheistic claim?
Nonetheless, since big bang/evolution are the only scientific alternative to the popular creation myths, all atheists have no other fancy option aside those.

This is going nowhere pretty fast. How do you mean "Fancy"?

Who goes about asking if an atheist accept big bang or not?

intelligent people who know what they're talking about. try it.

Except for wannabes and clowns like you, I never seen any real atheist who argued when associated with big bang.

Seems you only meet one type of atheists or the type constructed by religious people. btw, there are Christians that think big bang and evolution are true. it must be shocking to you right?

In that case, you're neither a theist nor atheist. You're just a entity on a lifetime journey, in search of the truth.

aren't we all? unless you've got it all figured out

As such it's a bit dopey to even make any argument for now, when you're still in the journey of finding out.

and you've, apparently, figured it all out. right?

Nah! you aren't catching up with the simple logic. Natural laws are universal and apply to all. It's same logic and laws at play in every stage.
'A baker used 'already existing' baking powder to make some dough'. At that level, the powder is the 'raw material' for making the dough but take a step back in the chain, you'll discover that the powder itself is a finished product of some 'raw material', take another step back in the chain, the 'raw materials' too are finished products of some other 'raw materials'.
Not like the baking powder has a mind and power of it's own to produce itself for the baker who needs it.
Same way, the car is a raw material and finished product fabricated by some mind and power/energy; the 'existing ' metals used in making the cars are also raw materials and finished product made by some mind and power.
It goes on.

You still don't get it. seems you're incapable of getting it. Cars are made from pre-existing materials. none of the engineers created anything. so what material did your imaginary friend use in "creating" the world and how did those come about? Nah, that's a stupid question since the answer is already in the Jewish mythology called Bible

It's simple logic son.
In a scientific/logical world around us, we know things don't start existing on their own. It's simple logic we see around us everyday. An artificial flower which has no ability to grow needs some intelligent mind and power to fabricate it. If so, does a living flower design itself, gave itself life, color and ability? Obviously not. Except for a dumb fellow, we all know things don't work that way. Self existing/creating universe is beyond the scope of logic and scientific reality. In natural logic and laws, it takes a mind with ability to design, create and fabricate something else.

what material did your god used in "creating the universe"?

[s]From a spiritual perspective, a God can miraculously exist. Since spiritual is combination of logic, ordinary, extraordinary, normal and supernatural, do you question a God existing supernaturally? It's all within the scope of spiritual reality. In Spiritual and magical logic, anything is obtainable.
A person painting with just a black crayon on white canvas can only produce black and white art, but someone using all colors can produce any/every color of arts. You can't use only black and claim to produce multicolored or orange color art, it's impossible! And you can't challenge someone using all the colors if he/she produced a blue color arts, it's possible! Get the simple logic son.[/s]

Rubbish!

Common. You keep sounding like a learner all day long.
'Fred is not dead.' - Do you need any sophisticated research to interpret what this statement means is that Fred is alive? Is that a fallacy? Every smart entity knows that if Fred isn't dead, that simply means he's alive. Simple!
If no intelligent God created the world, if the world existed itself, that simply means it's existing by accident. The creative mind has the purpose of creation. Manufacturers of phones have the purpose of profit, communication etc in mind, but assuming the phone existed on it's own, it has no mind or consciousness to have a purpose for it's own existence, so it's existing by accident. Anyone who holds such opinion simply says it's existing by accident. It's simple stuff.
You still have a lot to learn.

I ask again, where did I claim. it existed by accident? whatever you inferred from my statement is yours and yours alone

[quote author=light099 post=96062739]You almost made a whole lot of sense here, except that, like I always say, one sad news in life is, you would have to always believe in one shiit or another. No clean sheet here. There isn't any side devoid of shiits.

It's either you believe a big sky daddy or big bang daddy.
It's either you believe a dust man, rib woman, talking snake, talking donkey or you believe fishes growing legs, hands and transforming into apes, monkeys and talking men.
It's either you believe a stationary sun or you believe a self-creating solar system that fashioned out itself.



human beings cannot understand life it is higher beyond their intelligence. Science cannot because it is in the realms of the measureables and philosophy cannot because it relies solely on human mental capacity. We should humble ourselves and go by faith in Jesus Christ. Our attempts at explaining life like a baby that is trying to assume the mental responsibility of an adault

hopefulLandlord:
This is going nowhere pretty fast. How do you mean "Fancy"?
intelligent people who know what they're talking about. try it. Seems you only meet one type of atheists or the type constructed by religious people. btw, there are Christians that think big bang and evolution are true. it must be shocking to you right?

aren't we all? unless you've got it all figured out and you've, apparently, figured it all out. right?

You still don't get it. seems you're incapable of getting it. Cars are made from pre-existing materials. none of the engineers created anything. so what material did your imaginary friend use in "creating" the world and how did those come about? Nah, that's a stupid question since the answer is already in the Jewish mythology called Bible

what material did your god used in "creating the universe"?
Rubbish!



I ask again, where did I claim. it existed by accident? whatever you inferred from my statement is yours and yours alone

Since it's impossible for NOTHING to exist,then the universe is just one of the infinite things that exist.
In other words, the universe is something.
Also, I think the particles/objects that make up the universe such as the atoms had made up something else before several accidental changes led to the formation of the universe.
So,we can state that the universe is just one of the patterns that are being formed by these objects.
But in the absence of an observer,there is actually no structure or pattern because the things that exist are infinite.
The reason why we observe patterns is that we have limits such as a limit to what we can see,a limit to how far we can move,etc.
The reason why we have limits is that each of us exists as something and something refers to that which has limits.

The only thing i saw in the bible is/was " let us make MAN in our image and likeness. Not let us make a christian ...becoming a christian is entirely your own choice...God does not require anybody to become a christian..

All he wants is for us to be a human...life is about being, not titles and labels...and believing absurdities..

The universe is just the aftermath of a change in the structure of something else.
In other words, the universe was something else before.
The reason why this is true is that nothing cannot exist or nothingness is impossible.
The universe can still become another thing.
It is just one of those patterns that are being formed in the presence of an observer as several objects move randomly.

hopefulLandlord:
This is going nowhere pretty fast. How do you mean "Fancy"?

Yawns! It's hard replying you anymore. You just keep repeating same thing and dragging this whole conversation back.

How do you mean "Fancy"?

It simply means atheists don't have many options. Big bang is the only way an atheist could support his/her anti-theist claims.

Intelligent people who know what they're talking about. try it. Seems you only meet one type of atheists or the type constructed by religious people. btw, there are Christians that think big bang and evolution are true. it must be shocking to you right?

Some Christians think BigB is true isn't the issue, perhaps I partially do too. Grail message did a lot explaining life from uniting both the scientific and spiritual perspective. It's no news to me. It's only shocking to you. The real point here is that, BigB is the only option atheist have, so if you call yourself an atheist and say accepting BigB is an option. That simply means you're a clown, not an atheist. I ask, if you don't accept BigB as an atheist, how then do you defend your atheist claim? Simple question.

About 8 or more years ago, before clowns like you showed up, I used to be a notorious apologist online, doing chris-lam debates, ath-theist debates all day, all week. Real Arab muslims, real white athesits, LGBT etc. But I stopped all those years ago. Except you dragged me too much, it's hard to see me argue about religion. But those days, I met real atheists and arab Muslims, I only laugh when I see African clowns like you calling themselves atheists.

aren't we all? unless you've got it all figured out and you've, apparently, figured it all out. right?

Exactly, like I've been telling you, you're agnostic, not a gnostic atheist you made yourself look like.
Those who've figured it out there isn't a God are the atheists and they use scientific theories like BigB and Evo as the basis for not accepting a god and any creationism.
Those who've figured it out there's a God are the theists, some claim personal encounter, some have realized this kind of world isn't self created, while others realized it's more safe and smarter to be a theist. They gat nothing to lose afterall.
In-between these two groups are clowns, confused entities and agnostics like you, they're still on the journey to know what to believe and accept. Funny enough, you're too confused to realize you belong here, that's why you keep dragging this conversation back and find it hard, catching up with all I say.

You still don't get it. seems you're incapable of getting it. Cars are made from pre-existing materials. none of the engineers created anything. so what material did your imaginary friend use in "creating" the world and how did those come about? Nah, that's a stupid question since the answer is already in the Jewish mythology called Bible
what material did your god used in "creating the universe"?
Rubbish!

You're too slow to catch up with simple logic.
If a magician performs magic, do you expect to figure out how he did it? Or you expect him to show you the secret? Obviously not! It's a magic, it's meant to confuse you. You can't figure it out the linear logical way.
God made things spiritually. It's called a miracle, OK. Don't come here asking how it happened, wanting to understand it in a linear way. I already explained this over and over, stop repeating same question. Only shows you have nothing more to say.

I ask again, where did I claim. it existed by accident? whatever you inferred from my statement is yours and yours alone

I already explained this. Anyone who says something has no creator is automatically saying that thing is existing by accident.
Or maybe I should ask you, you already said no intelligent God made the universe, now make logically explanations how the self-created universe isn't existing by accident?

light099:
Yawns! It's hard replying you anymore. You just keep repeating same thing and dragging this whole conversation back.


It simply means atheists don't have many options. Big bang is the only way an atheist could support his/her anti-theist claims.


Some Christians think BigB is true isn't the issue, perhaps I partially do too. Grail message did a lot explaining life from uniting both the scientific and spiritual perspective. It's no news to me. It's only shocking to you. The real point here is that, BigB is the only option atheist have, so if you call yourself an atheist and say accepting BigB is an option. That simply means you're a clown, not an atheist. I ask, if you don't accept BigB as an atheist, how then do you defend your atheist claim? Simple question.

About 8 or more years ago, before clowns like you showed up, I used to be a notorious apologist online, doing chris-lam debates, ath-theist debates all day, all week. Real Arab muslims, real white athesits, LGBT etc. But I stopped all those years ago. Except you dragged me too much, it's hard to see me argue about religion. But those days, I met real atheists and arab Muslims, I only laugh when I see African clowns like you calling themselves atheists.



Exactly, like I've been telling you, you're agnostic, not a gnostic atheist you made yourself look like.
Those who've figured it out there isn't a God are the atheists and they use scientific theories like BigB and Evo as the basis for not accepting a god and any creationism.
Those who've figured it out there's a God are the theists, some claim personal encounter, some have realized this kind of world isn't self created, while others realized it's more safe and smarter to be a theist. They gat nothing to lose afterall.
In-between these two groups are clowns, confused entities and agnostics like you, they're still on the journey to know what to believe and accept. Funny enough, you're too confused to realize you belong here, that's why you keep dragging this conversation back and find it hard, catching up with all I say.


You're too slow to catch up with simple logic.
If a magician performs magic, do you expect to figure out how he did it? Or you expect him to show you the secret? Obviously not! It's a magic, it's meant to confuse you. You can't figure it out the linear logical way.
God made things spiritually. It's called a miracle, OK. Don't come here asking how it happened, wanting to understand it in a linear way. I already explained this over and over, stop repeating same question. Only shows you have nothing more to say.


I already explained this. Anyone who says something has no creator is automatically saying that thing is existing by accident.
Or maybe I should ask you, you already said no intelligent God made the universe, now make logically explanations how the self-created universe isn't existing by accident?

There are infinite things.
But you exist as something and that means you have limits.
The universe is also something that has limits.
So,you come across patterns/structures by chance.
But the formation of patterns is continuous in the presence of an observer.
It has no beginning and it cannot end.
In the absence of the observer, there is no pattern/structure because there is no one to observe them.

HellVictorinho:
There are infinite things.
But you exist as something and that means you have limits.
The universe is also something that has limits.
So,you come across patterns/structures by chance.
But the formation of patterns is continuous in the presence of an observer.
It has no beginning and it cannot end.
In the absence of the observer, there is no pattern/structure because there is no one to observe them.

Cool.
Sounds like you're trying to make some big sense here but I didn't grasp what this is about.
Can you explain this in more details?

light099:
Cool.
Sounds like you're trying to make some big sense here but I didn't grasp what this is about.
Can you explain this in more details?

It's about the universe.
But let's start by asking if anything exists.
Off course, the answer is yes.
But we have not specified.
If we specify, anything will be identified as something like this or that.
The identification of something means there was also a chance of identifying anything as something else.
In other words,we had infinite options to choose from since anything was unspecified.
Also, what is identified possesses limits.
Those limits show that it is actually a structure/pattern.
But there is no limit to what can be identified.
There is always a chance for anything to be identified as this or that.
Since the universe is something identified,it is just another pattern to the observer.
There is a chance of anything being identified as something else.
In fact, the universe is just something that could become something else to an observer.
There are objects/particles that always exist in the absence of nothing.
These objects seem to combine in different ways as they move randomly.
They form patterns as they seem to combine.
These objects are always moving.
The sun appears to be made up of particles that are not moving.
But these particles are actually moving.
Each divisible particle has limits so it is also pattern .
But an indivisible particle only consists of one thing which is what the particle is completely made of .

HellVictorinho:
It's about the universe.
But let's start by asking if anything exists.
Off course, the answer is yes.
But we have not specified.
If we specify, anything will be identified as something like this or that.
The identification of something means there was also a chance of identifying anything as something else.
In other words,we had infinite options to choose from since anything was unspecified.
Also, what is identified possesses limits.
Those limits show that it is actually a structure/pattern.
But there is no limit to what can be identified.
There is always a chance for anything to be identified as this or that.
Since the universe is something identified,it is just another pattern to the observer.
There is a chance of anything being identified as something else.
In fact, the universe is just something that could become something else to an observer.
There are objects/particles that always exist in the absence of nothing.
These objects seem to combine in different ways as they move randomly.
They form patterns as they seem to combine.
These objects are always moving.
The sun appears to be made up of particles that are not moving.
But these particles are actually moving.
Each divisible particle has limits so it is also pattern .
But an indivisible particle only consists of one thing which is what the particle is completely made of .

Cool.
Speak on, but this time around more definite and clear about what you're driving at.