₦airaland Forum

LordReed:
What documentations, research, archeological evidence, external literature and references show that Matthew and John wrote the books?

if I provide it you'll probably say it's not concrete enough.

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jaephoenix:
So who were the people who witnessed it first hand since it wasn't Matthew, Mark, Luke and John

it was Matthew, Mark and the disciples. Mark wrote from Peter and Luke was a historian.

jaephoenix:
Good question. I love this.
Dates are measured in Anno Domini (A.D.) because a 6th-century monk Dionysius Exiguus wanted to standardize the calendar by making the birth of Jesus Christ the center of world history, rather than counting years based on the reigns of Roman emperors. Now because the phrase Anno Domini is explicitly religious, many modern historians and scientists use the neutral terms C.E. (Common Era) and B.C.E. (Before Common Era). Both systems share the exact same timeline.
Remember many atheists dont have issues with the historicity of Jesus, what we debate on is HIS DEITY. Meaning his virgin birth,miracles, resurrection are not evidenced

well if he was just an ordinary man why would Dionysus want Him to be the center of world history. Think man, think. Was Dionysus also sold a bill of goods like "modern day over religious dumb Africans"? I don't think so.

jaephoenix:
Logic absolutely has nothing to do with spirituality. It looks like you dont know what logic is. Maybe I'll define it for you
Logic is the formal science of correct reasoning. It involves evaluating arguments to determine whether a conclusion is validly supported by its premises, separating sound, reasonable thinking from flawed or irrational conclusions.
From the above definition, it is based off evidence and facts. Spirituality cannot be proven. Why do I have to define stuff for you christians always?
You haven't even proven that a man rose from the dead,and you're already basing premises off it.
You have been unable to show us the external sources of the gospel for days now, yet you're telling us to do the work for you. Na so u dey do?
Why do you think the one who prayed and read would do better than the one who only read? Remember he used all his time to read,he didn't waste any time to pray.
That's still what I'm saying. Your bible said not to trust in our logic ir understanding

I'll give you the external sources. But why would that even convince you when archeological evidence present in modern day Israel won't?
From the pic below, logic doesn't necessarily have to be proven by science. For instance, love is logical but it cannot be explained by science. Same thing with spirituality. It's logical to believe in a creator because according to the Laws of Thermodynamics, energy can neither be created nor destroyed, so how did the universe come to be? It's perfectly logical (not scientific) to say it was created outside of time and space.
If you pray and read, it's better than just praying or just reading. I stand with my comment.

jaephoenix:
What evidence proves its the strongest

I'll just share these.

LordReed:
Bro Herod was not alive in the first century. Can you see how you are having to revise the words you claim are from eyewitnesses and divine inspiration? You don't even have confidence in the words as they are written because they contradict facts.

I already gave you the answer, you're just not satisfied with it so I'm going to see if I can get you more info on that. Quirinius was an unofficial governor while Herod was alive. Governor in Luke 2 is a verb not a noun as it is usually used in the Bible. Check the greek if you think I'm lying.

LordReed:
Bro how do you KNOW Matthew and John wrote the books?

I know it the same way I know history. The documentations, research, archeological evidence, external literature and references.

jaephoenix:
So who were the people who witnessed it first hand since it wasn't Matthew, Mark, Luke and John

Matthew and John witnessed it first hand. Mark got his from Peter and Luke was a historian, he interviewed the desciples and researched.

jaephoenix:
Pardon me,but I dont rate bible history. It has contradictions and misinformations

mention the contradictions and misinformations.

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Whenever I see Johnny Gargano.

jaephoenix:
There was only ONE documented census. The others were false and no documents favor them. They were added after the Roman's found out that the only census documented would kill the veracity of the bible story

Luke 2:2 says "this was the first census..." It was multiple.

LordReed:
It explicitly says when he was governor. Herod the great died at least 10 years before Quirinius became governor so it is impossible for the story to be historically accurate.

Which leads me to conclude there was no divine hand involved in the crafting. These are just stories being told about a beloved character to promote his legend.

I'll have to get back to you on this, but from what I know the greek word there is a verb and not a noun, meaning he was most likely put in charge during Herod's reign before he officially became an actual governor.

LordReed:
The authors are unknown. There are several other reasons why we can't simply trust that the books were written eponymously. For one they were written by supposedly unlearned men in Greek. Next the earliest manuscript found so far are dated to the 2nd century so the authors can't be verified.

Now you tell me what evidence you have that they were written by Matthew and John.

the fact that I have information on ground today doesn't mean I have to produce a book right away. My point is producing the book later on doesn't mean the information wasn't obtained from first-hand encounter.

jaephoenix:
The writers of the gospel are anonymous and it was written many years after Jesus's death,and they weren't eye witnesses
Even bible scholars and historians believe its anonymous

the early church fathers believed it was Matthew Mark Luke and John; it's the modern scholars that disagree.
But answer this, why are historical dates measured and written based only on the birth and life of Jesus, a man you claim never existed. You can't even have this conversation without mentioning BC and AD. Is history that gullible?

jaephoenix:
So why should you believe in Jesus since there is no historical evidence that he's a god? Would you believe other gods just because their holy books said to believe in them?
What has logic gotta do with religion? Religion believes in talking animals and bushes,mass resurrections, sun and moon standing still etc,which sre events that have not been proven to happen. So logic is out of the window for you.
So faith without work is dead? OK, so lemme ask a scenario. I have 3 students for an exam. One ONLY prayed and fasted with faith,the other prayed and read,while the third one ONLY read for the exam. Which of them would probably pass the exam?

Belief in god actually stops critical thinking. Remember the bible discourages thinking and even explicitly says for you not to lean on your own understanding

logic has every thing to do with spirituality, not necessarily science, but logic. If a man rises from the dead, it's logical to believe him if he says he's God.

The gospels have many external sources, you can look it up.

The one who prayed and read will most likely do the best.

The verse says trust in the Lord; that means in a situation or context that you need or have to trust in God for help and understanding, do that and not on yourself.

jaephoenix:
And how do you know its the authentic one

we don't necessarily know but it has the best evidence or strongest cases.

jaephoenix:
1. You still haven't provided any evidence about this heaven. You just saud it cant be proven,SO HOW DO YOU KNOW IT ACTUALLY EXISTS SINCE ITS OUTSIDE SPACE AND TIME?
2. Faith without works is dead? So what happens when someone has no faith at all,would that person succeed?
China isnt religious. Get your facts right. UK is getting less religious, in fact churches are being converted to pubs and clubs there. You can fact check. US is religious but gradually atheism is increasing there.
I am talking about countries that have more Christians like Latin America etc. They tend to have poorer economy. The percentage of atheists in Eastern European countries are much higher than Nigeria yet they are better off than us
Yes,development is a measure of success. If I give you UK visa you would run there without thinking about your religious Nigeria. So u want to tell me Netherlands, Slovenia etc have more natural disasters,crime and depression than Nigeria? Lol 😆
These lies wont help you bro

.

The person Jesus told me so I believe. We can't see proof of Heaven, but as humans we are supposed to take the logical option and that option is Jesus.

Faith without work is dead. Work without faith is also dead.

They're Buddhists in China, but it wasn't a good example since they're mostly atheists.
UK & USA built their Nation as a Christian major country. That's my point. Belief in God doesn't stop you from thinking, it does the opposite even and makes you better as a person.

jaephoenix:
Do you think its easy to tell a story when it happened, or many years after it happened?
Documentaries are made from literature that was made when the event happened. For example,Martin Luther King documentary was made from stories,accounts, drawings etc made when he was alive. The writings or stories in the gospels were made much later after Jesus died

chill, what I mean is they most likely compiled it through documentation and diaries, eye witnesses accounts, personal experience and asking questions.

LordReed:
Matthew and John didn't write those books.

so who did and what evidence do you have to back it up?

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LordReed:
Bro there are THREE sites for the tomb of Jesus. How is that any kind of evidence?

to every original there's always a fake. But Church of the Holy Sepulchre has the most authentic and trusted one.

Talk true, you want to mock the other company for not selling out, but even your own company no dey sell out.😏😂 We banter another day. 🚶🏾‍♂️🚶🏾‍♂️

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jaephoenix:
Please read up
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Census_of_Quirinius

I already told you there were multiple. This one is just stating the one that occured while Quirinius was governor. There was another prior, while Herod was alive which Quirinius still oversaw this time as a chief army official.

jaephoenix:
So why do you think its eye witness account when its was written 40 yrs after Jesus?

I don't get, is it a crime for me to retell things that happened 40 years before? Documentaries exist.

jaephoenix:
It means the events were written in the bible way after Jesus died. They were hearsays
For example,if I split the moon today and it was written in a book after I died by people who weren't alive with me,would you call it eye witness account

the people were Alive with him. Matthew and John who wrote the gospels were His disciples and closest friends.

jaephoenix:
1. You nor every other Christian, have no evidence heaven exists. None whatsoever. Its the same weight of evidence that Valhalla exists,which means nil
2. Nigeria is the most prayerful Christian country in the world but life expectancy is 47 years while many countries that are more atheistic in nature than Nigeria have almost 80 years. Hunger and insecurity ravages the country,so what are you mouthing about

bro, Heaven is outside of time and space. Any Heaven that can be proven by science is a fake.

Yes, our Nation can be better, but even scripture says faith without work is useless. Where is the commensurate effort to back it up.
Also, there's a difference between spirituality and religion. Most of us are just church goers without a personal relationship with God.
Also Nigeria isn't the only religious state, there are developed countries that are religious too like US, China and the UK.
Lastly, development isn't always the absolute measure of a Nation's success, these guys face a lot of natural disasters, crime and depression. Jesus is the true solution to the world's problems.

jaephoenix:
An empty tomb can mean that the body was moved,think critically. It doesn't prove anything

moved to where? Bodies were buried in Tombs. There were soldiers guarding the tomb. How would simple men like the disciples dare cross the soldiers by committing an atrocity that had the interest of Pontius Pilate. They wouldn't just have killed the disciples, they'd probably kill or punish their household too. Your argument isn't strong here.

CoolUsername:
Hiding behind security and police is a chickenshit thing to do in a combat-based show lime pro wrestling. The fans are always going to cheer the person who wants to fight.

I understand. But attacking police? That's too much. You'll bury them in that process.