₦airaland Forum

Hello MyJoe,

While I might acknowledge the gist of your post, I think the whole piece misses its fundamental bearing. Its weakness is highlighted especially in your analogy of AIDS - that is a serious joke and does nothing to bring out the point you were trying to put forth.

However, let me narrow my comments to this part of your piece:

MyJoe:
“The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.” This is where Christians are wont to stop when quoting the verse.

Nope, that is not where 'Christians' are wont to stop when quoting that verse. Let me refer you to an example in my own experience where I expounded on the tendency for people to act foolishly without narrowing it to merely those with atheistic inclinations: please see this example in my discourse with Tudor in my early days on Nairaland ~ ["However, it is not only atheists that are directly addressed as fools in the Bible - others have been described with similar qualifiers"]. It may help to not be so broad in your generalisations.

“It’s the Bible that says you are a fool, not me.” But even this portion, taken alone, refers first and foremost, not to the loquacious atheist who declares with his mouth that there is no God, but to anyone who says it in their heart. That is, those religious folk who mouth God from cockcrow to dusk but live mostly for earthbound lucre. (See Titus 1:16).

Your idea that such a quote may refer not to the loquacious atheist is quite amusing, misleading and mischievous at best. An atheist, as far as I know, does not only use his/her mouth to deny the very existence of God, but that is what he/she believes in his/her heart. The only way to pretend otherwise is to make the atheist a hypocrite who says something with his mouth differently from what he believes in his/her heart. At the core of many peoples' atheism is the heart belief that there is no God.

At the basics, it is the question of the existence of God and the supernatural that forms the core of theism - and for someone to assert that 'there is no God' is basically foolish, whether they do so by merely mouthing it off or actually believeing it with their hearts. I do not find how you could intelligently defend the idea that someone would go out of his way to deny the existence of God with their mouth without believing that denial with their hearts.

@Arté, I enjoy some of your posts, but I'd like to help make sense of this part of yours:

[quote author=Arté link=topic=397372.msg5504084#msg5504084 date=1266004226]And I'm willing to bet $1000 bucks and my ride, that you didn't know the word "pastor" appears only once in the entire New Testament. Once. and only a few times in the OT.[/quote]That's not true. What about versions and translations which do not use the word 'pastors' a single time in their entire New Testaments - could we then use such translations and versions to argue that 'the word "pastor" DOES NOT appear even once in the entire New Testament' - not even 'ONCE'?

Since you're limiting your statement to any number of particular English version(s) of the Bible,  the better thing to say is that the word 'pastors' (plural) appears only once in the NT of the King James Version, KJV and some other akin versions, (Ephesians 4:11). However, the original word from which it was translated appears several times in the NT Greek manuscripts of our Bible. I'll just copy from my notes to sort this out.

---

(1)   The word 'pastors' in Eph. 4:11 is ποιμήν (poimēn), appearing no less than 18 times in the NT where it is variously translated as 'shepherd' or 'shepherds'  ~

* (shepherd) ~
Matt. 9:36
Matt. 25:32
Matt. 26:31
Mark 6:34
Mark 14:27
John 10:2
John 10:11-12
John 10:14
John 10:16
Hebrews 13:20
1 Peter 2:25

* (shepherds) ~
Luke 2:8
Luke 2:15
Luke 2:18
Luke 2:20

* (pastors) ~
Ephesians 4:11


(2)   Apart from the KJV, there are other versions and translations which translate ποιμήν (poimēn) in Eph. 4:11 as 'pastors', such as the ASV, NIV, NASB, NLT, NKJV, CEV, HCSB, and several more.

(3)   The Amplified uses both English words 'pastors' and 'shepherds' - "some pastors (shepherds of His flock)"

(4)   Some other modern translations like the ESV (English Standard Version), the YLT (Young's Literal Translation), and  Darby (1889 tr.) do not use the word 'pastors' even once in their New Testaments - NOT EVEN ONCE. They rather use the word 'shepherds' in Ephesians 4:11.

(5)   This same Greek word ποιμήν (poimēn) is used in reference to our Lord Jesus Christ as well, Who is thus addressed in the following manner ~

* 'the Shepherd (ποιμήν) and Bishop of your souls' ~ 1 Peter 2:25
* 'that great Shepherd (ποιμήν) of the sheep' ~ Heb. 13:20
* 'I am the good Shepherd (ποιμήν)' ~ John 10:11

(6)   There should be no quarrel or confusion between the English equivalents of 'pastors' or 'shepherds' for the Greek (ποιμήν) - so, whether someone wants to use either words in Ephesians 4:11 (as does the Amplified), the essential message should not be lost on us. The point is that it is not true to state that the word "pastor" appears only once in the entire New Testament: as we have seen, such an argument is unnecessary and immature.

(7)   Although the word 'pastors' conjures some ill feelings in the minds of many Christians today, that should not make us lose sight of the fact that 'Pastors' are part of Christ's gifts to His Church (Ephesians 4:11). A healthy fellowship is one where local pastors are loved, respected and supported in the very important work which they do - Hebrews 13:7.

My pal woye77, thanks for the invitation. The topic is timely, especially because of the things I see among some (please note: 'some') Nigerian Christians whenever I visit London. I can't say much at this time, but suffice that believers (men) should be able to seek their own women as a matter of their own choice, rather than something like an 'application' at the gate of some company. I hope no one would be put off by my remarks, as that was not meant to be cynical - but men who are 'men' should be 'men' where it matters.

Proverbs 18:22 - 'Whoso findeth a wife findeth a good thing, and obtaineth favour of the LORD'. To 'find', the 'seeking' must take place as a matter of personal responsibility. It does not say that the favour was to be bestowed on the person seeking a wife on behalf of someone else.

(Just an asides, though. . . I know of some pastors/ leaders of churches who met their partners through the 'ministry' of a 'go-between' - you know, the type where someone says: 'please put in a good word for me. . toast her over to my coast'. I'm not making fun of such men, but they should not make things turn out like a circus for people under their leadership).

woye77:
my guys viaro, traugott - others - join me on a new topic - click the link below

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-397372.0.html

Thanks for the invitation.

OLAADEGBU:
Jesus expects us to be wise in giving to people posing as ministers of the gospel but giving to the right ones will surely be rewarded.

Hi OLAADEGBU, good summary - but please edit this part quoted above so people understand you more easily. Perhaps you meant rather to say: "Jesus expects us to be wise in NOT GIVING to people posing as ministers of the Gospel", no? If not, my apologies - maybe I read it the wrong way. But good recap.

KunleOshob:
The apsotles NEVER taught you should givetothem so as a formof christian giving or as a requirement for God to bless you.

I did not at anytime ask you if it was a "requirement", so that point there is quite inconsequential. I would have appreciated simple answers to the simple questions I asked.

People gave to them on their own accord not as a result of apostles teaching or soliciting for gifts.

People gave both as a result of their own accord as a a consequence of the apostles' teaching - that much is clear from a careful reading of the New Testament.

What we read in the bible is references to people giving to the appostles and not teachings that people should give to the apostles, these are two entirely diffeent things and should not be mis- construed for each other.

I did not try to misconstrue them; and that aside, you're deviating from my earlier enquiry, sir. I am sure you know that the apostle Paul made requested the giving assistance of Christians are various places where he taught - otherwise he would not have said any such things at all.

Were as there is nothing wrong in giving to preachers to assist in meeting the needs there is everything wrong in a preacher of the gospel using the gospel to enrich himself at the detriment of the poor and needy that christian giving is targeted at.

I agree with that. But even so, that is not news to me, nor did I ask for such things. It would have been great if you helped to attend to the issues i offered to you direct, and not whether anyone was asking for a "requirement" or whether some were enriching themselves at others' expense.

^^ Maybe a good start would be for you to think of interesting topics that would refresh everyone.

KunleOshob:
@Viaro
The bible records David as dancing virtually unclothed before God and God was pleased with him.

2 Samuel 6:14  ~  'And David danced before the LORD with all his might; and David was girded with a linen ephod.'

1 Chron. 15:27 - 'And David was clothed with a robe of fine linen, and all the Levites that bare the ark, and the singers, and Chenaniah the master of the song with the singers: David also had upon him an ephod of linen'

The point was - does that amount to lap dancing?

ogajim:
Dude! You have no walked in my shoes, I am old enough to know the expression as well but unless you know Adegbu "off camera" then I would think he meant what he said in the way he said it.

I don't think I accused him of "contributing to the delinquency" of the "bling-bling" preachers either but stating the obvious.

You have not walked in other people's shoes, so what are you on about? If you have anything in the quote that showed him to be what you're at pains to misconstrue of him, please show. I don't think you're helping the situation by making insinuations that are not in that quote OLAADEGBU made.

It is not healthy for us to be making all sorts of underhanded suggestions about people - especially where those worried about his post have not been able to show what exactly in his simple statement is warranting all these concerns.

GODSON2009:
go and check in the bible stephen was not born again but he was honoured because he gave generously towards the work of the gospel

Please quote the text and let's read for ourselves, thank you.

Deep Sight:
WRONG. I DID NOT MAKE THE INITIAL ASSERTION.

I was quoting your direct statement: "there is no basis on which unclothed dancing can be considered wrong in the sight of God" ~~

Deep Sight:
No: I simply made the point that there is no basis on which unclothed dancing can be considered wrong in the sight of God - such only amounts to hypocrisy.

You did not make that statement, no?

ogajim:
Sowing comes in many shapes and forms and not just "put your money where your mouth is"

'Put your money where your mouth is' is a well-known simple expression (examples here and here). I don't think that OLAADEGBU's use of that expression meant that he was supporting the excesses of bling-bling preachers. There was no need to focus on that and become reactive at just the mention of 'money'.

I don't find lap dancing in the Bible. You called someone else a hypocrite on that. Since you said that "there is no basis on which unclothed dancing can be considered wrong in the sight of God", I requested you to show me the verse that says unclothed dancing is considered pleasing to God.

KunleOshob:
Even though there were examples of people giving to the apsotles in the bible it should not be mis-construed as the core teachings of christ as far as giving is concerned. he way i define christian giving are givings based on the direct teachings of christ and not all forms of giving found in the bible.

No problem. So, are we to regard the apostles' teaching on giving as running counter to the teachings of Christ then?

Christ taught giving to the poor and the needy. The way i understand it giving should be targetted at meeting the needs of those in need.

Did the apostles not teach the same things? Besides, if the apostles felt that their teaching on giving were running counter to Christ's teachings, why did they not reject the givings they received from Christians in various churches? Another thing was that Christ also received givings from others as well, no?

The apostles had needs, if the giving was to meet their needs it would be termed as christian giving, but if the giving was to finance their excessies as it is very rampnat in our churches today, it is no longer christian giving. You can not classify all forms of giving as either pagan or christian. i can give to my pastor out of appreciation but that des not mean it is a christian giving. Our obligations as christians to to give to those in need first be it pastor, beggar or even muslims as christ did not discriminate amonsgt them. The brethen Jesus was talking about in matthew 25 were not even christians as you wrongly tried to imply, the christian religion had not even started then. Those whom Jesus referred to as his brethen are the poor and the needy and not chriistians who didn't even exist when he made that statement and definitely not pastors whom can be likekend to the religious leaders of that time [the pharisees] whom Jesus was very critical of their ways.

I didn't ask you about practices today in many quarters, and I consider such things the necessry distractions you use to condemn Christian giving wholesale. I have never at anytime been in support of excesses in any form, but I don't let that become grounds for me to lose sight of what the Bible teaches. Which was why I asked you why you were berating OLAADEGBU for simply quoting some verses where there was nothing he said that pointed to support of excesses. Please, could you show me what exactly he said that made you deride him in such a manner? Thanks.

^^I won't put up with your hypocrisy, so stop waving the victim's card - that is below you. I answered that my replies would come after KunleOshob has answered my queries - that should have spoken volumes to you of my willingness to discuss. You were first to play your usual idiocy, and I made clear that I won't put up with it? Are you dying from that? Keep playing the dunce you are and making excuses for your dramas.

[quote author=Arté link=topic=388653.msg5502066#msg5502066 date=1265986618]Viaro, easy now, oga no vex like that. Even if Deepsight threw the first punch, we should simply turn the other cheek and return with blessing no? [/quote]I could reason with people who want to reason, not hypocrites who fall all over themselves pretending to be reasonable and won't stop being the hypocrites they are anyday - even after several cautions. If it was a stranger I hitherto have not discussed with, I would discuss without any problems. DeepSight is not out to discuss and has shown that many times. Next time he misses his feeding bottle and can't find his nanny, the last person he wants to approach with his fusty pyjamas is viaro.

Deep Sight:
That I should show you were it is pleasing to God? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?

Please just show me the verse that says God is pleased with unclothed dancing.

Deep Sight:
Epele sir - many apologies for my "i.diocy."

We are however, firmly aware that -

1. Empty barrels make the loudest noise and -

2. It is usual that persons respond with unsolicited insults when they have nothing sensible to say.

Awaiting the next round of vulgarities, Viaro.

For one, I don't even try to "pretend" at consummate hypocrites like you who go about first throwing derision at others and the come back to whine when replied in same manner. I guess you wewre such an idiot to not realise that after I tried to address you simply, you were first to call me escapist? Did that sound sensible to you? You just turn out describing the empty barrel you are and boring us all with you loudest noise. Twerp.

Deep Sight:
Now that's eloquently put, Arte.

Wonder why it was so hard for Viaro.

Maybe he's hiding from something?

The truth, perhaps?

Please see just an example here that I'm not oblivious of what Arte was trying to explain.

^^ Please do show us where in the Bible you find unclothed dancing to be pleasing to God.

Deep Sight:
Viaro, dont make me laugh.

There is only one reason why you evade my query: and that is the fact that it shows up a very simple truism - namely -

You don't have to be such [color=Black]an idi[/color]ot if you missed the very fact I was going to answer your questions AFTER KunleOshob has answered mine. Were you blind that I already said so? If I didn't want to indulge you, I would say so as simply as you can read it. You don't just barge in with your fusty garb and resume your idiocy from whereever you lost it the last time.

b]That there are shades of supposed giving which in both degree and direction are eminently, manifestly and unquestionably unchristian.[/b]

And that is supposed to be news to viaro, no? I have news for you - you're stale. I was asking KunleOshob simple questions on his assertions following what OLAADEGBU had posted. I was interested in what he made of a particular verse that any simpleton could understand. If you were seeking a dialogue, I would oblige. Next time dry-clean your retired idiocy before you call my attention to your slobs.

^^ do you go about the street unclothed to 'prove' your adamic purity?

^^ My discussions here are not grounds for you DeepSight to return from your self-exile accusing me of anything. I won't put up with such nonsense - not before, not now, not sometime in the future.

Joagbaje:
My sister, God is not author of evil .I know quite well the erronous doctrine you have believed ,but its not consistent with Gods nature. I have greater light than Isaiah, God is love.

I'm sorry, but you don't have half the light that Isaiah had - and other prophets were consistent in bearing the same message. The only one deviating from them is you, and I have not see how you have managaed to rise above their own light.

Although God is love, have you also forgotten that "our God is a consuming fire", Hebrews 12:29??

Joagbaje:
@ viaro

Whatever you mean by Word Of Faith. The name doesnt sound negative to me. Have you read this passage;

Romans 10:8
But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

Or is there any other Word Of Faith?

There is a difference between 'WOF' as W[/b]ord [b]o[/b]f [b]F[/b]aith [b]movement and what Paul says in Romans 10:8. I'm sure you can see that the apostle was not saying that they preach a "movement", but we know that the WOF is a movement with very questionable premises.

Deep Sight:
^^^ Please indulge me: my queries needn't be tied to his.

I would only indulge you if you allow a smooth flow in my queries to KunleOshob. If you don't want your queries to be tied to anything, it is all the more reason why I don't want any deflections or distractions from the very issues I have presented to KunleOshob.

Deep Sight:
Viaro/ Nuella -

What do you make of these -

1. Multi-Millionaire Christians who give gifts of luxury M. Benzs and BMWs to Pastors who already own a dizzying number of cars

2. Multi-Millionaire christians who purchase private jets as gifts for Pastors.

Might i just add that the above are not hypothetical but real-life events that have happened and continue to happen in Nigeria.

Thanks in advance.

I will tell you what they are after KunleOshob has given answers to my questions.

If anything at all, I want a sensible answer to this one:

KunleOshob:

viaro: Why is giving to one's pastor different from 'Christian giving' or 'giving to Christ'?

Even thoug there are examples of people giving to the apostles in the new testament, it was never taught as christian giving.

(a) Please tell my why giving to apostles is NOT 'Christian giving'.

(b) If it is not Christian giving, [size=14pt]what is it - pagan giving?[/size]

You must have a descriptive term for it - it is either 'Christian giving' or it is not, in which case it would be an anti-Christian giving, so please let us know what you want to call it.

KunleOshob:
Bros stp trying to be dis-honest you know as much as i know that the above passage as absolutely nothing to do with giving to pastors or even christians, it was to do with giving to the poor and the needy which is what true christian giving is all about

Excuse me, do the verses cited by OLAADEGBU teach that we should not give to 'even Christians'?? I think you're desperate to force your anti-Christian giving upon others and that's why you're missing the whole point. What did Christ mean by "my brethren" in verse 40 - are they not Christians as well?

KunleOshob:

viaro: Why is giving to one's pastor different from 'Christian giving' or 'giving to Christ'?

Even thoug there are examples of people giving to the apostles in the new testament, it was never taught as christian giving.

Please tell me why giving to apostles is NOT 'Christian giving'. If it is not Christian giving, what is it - pagan giving? Please tell me why that example is NOT 'Christian giving'.

KunleOshob:
Christian giving should be what we were taught or instructed to do NOT every example of giving we fing in the bible.

Is giving to Christian leaders and teachers NOT part of what we as Christians are taught in the New Testament?? If not, WHY?

KunleOshob:
Giving to a pastor who is not in need is certainly not christian giving but giving to a person out of appreciation or delusion.

Why is giving to a pastor who is not in need certainly NOT Christian giving? Please tell me how that turns out to be an anti-Christian thing.

Traugott:
Now, we move on to TRIALS. What are trials?

Very interesting so far. People have tended to confuse these things today - I don't know so much about the scenario in Nigeria, but you should hear just what many Nigerian Christians in London believe!

KunleOshob:
It's okay if you give to your pastor to show appreciation but don't mistake that as christian giving or giving to christ.

Why is giving to one's pastor different from 'Christian giving' or 'giving to Christ'?

nuella2:
@Viora
A man that has recieved the gospel of our lord Jesus christ is not a poor man. Poverty is not just the lack of money but a mentality. A mentality of helplessness. Joseph was not poor in prison, he had God(DREAMS ALSO).A poor man is an hopeless man(without God), he cannot help another person.

I hope you saw that I was very careful to qualify my statements so that you're not left in any doubts? I never once suggested that Joseph was poor mentally - rather I said that he was "financially poor", and also noted that the LORD was with him, quoting the direct verses to show what I meant. I have not seen any reason for me to believe that you guys are more concerned about other areas of wellbeing than the materialistic aspect, otherwise you would not be at pains to keep emphasizing the same thing over and over again. Materialism is not the core of the saving Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ - that was not why He came or why He gave His life for us.