Abuamam:


That our prophet Isa (as) said this, has not been authenticated. There is no chain of narrators to this verse, or any part of the NT for that matter; that can be used for authentication.

Those are the words of Jesus Christ, is either you believe it or you don't unless you are saying that God could not keep His word from corruption. Read Acts 4:12 to see that there is no other name by which we can be saved.

Abuamam:


Even if; for the sake of argument; we accept the statement as originating from him in this exact form, we would take it to be a message to the 'lost sheep of the house of Israel' alone, that the message of pure monotheism, which he was sent with, is the 'way, truth and life'. I have no problem with that. It is what Islam has taught all along.

Let me quote the verse so that you will know that He is speaking to all and not just the lost sheep of Israel:

"Jesus said to him, I am the way, the truth and the life: no man comes to the Father, but by me" John 14:6

The words of Jesus in red. Note where He said No one comes to the Father except through Him. Acts 4:12 says:

"Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved"

So, if you claim Jesus to be your prophet you will trust and obey for there is no other way.

Abuamam:


No. Taqiyyah is falsehood and involves lying. A good Muslim must not lie; especially for the sake of calling to Truth, for Truth can never be established through a lie. The prophet (saw) said that lies lead to unrighteousness, and ultimately to the fire; and if a person kept lying, he would be recorded by Allah as a liar.

Are you saying good Muslims don't engage in Al Taqiyya? Even Allah is said to be the greatest of decievers, do you want me to show you where it is written in your holy book?

PastorAIO:


Good points? without any corroborating evidence? Before you ask for 'more details', shouldn't you just ask for any details at all.

I already got evidence I was only asking for details as you rightly put it.

PastorAIO:


You are asking for evidence here but you failed to ask for evidence on the other side. Now you want evidence to prove a negative.

If you've got evidence to prove your assertion why hide it.

OLAADEGBU:


Those are the words of Jesus Christ, is either you believe it or you don't unless you are saying that God could not keep His word from corruption. Read Acts 4:12 to see that there is no other name by which we can be saved.

Oh, the bible is exhaustively corrupted. There is no doubt about that in any intelligent person's mind. The words that you claim to be those of Jesus are more likely to be those of some monk or scribe in the 4th century CE. Of course, if you say the bible is free of corruption, you would have to specify the version. JW version? Douay version? What of homosexual version, feminist version, Kanye West version?

Acts 4:12 is not in the Kanye West version of the Bible, so I couldn't read it (based on your premise that the bible cannot be corrupted, I have decided on the KW version).

OLAADEGBU:

Let me quote the verse so that you will know that He is speaking to all and not just the lost sheep of Israel:

"Jesus said to him, I am the way, the truth and the life: no man comes to the Father, but by me" John 14:6

The words of Jesus in red. Note where He said No one comes to the Father except through Him. Acts 4:12 says:

"Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved"

Then what do you do with the following verses (also written in red)...

"Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel." Matthew 10:6 or thereabouts (please put the correct reference for me).

"But he answered... I am not sent but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel..." Matthew 15:24 or thereabouts.

Not that you have proven that Jesus said any of it. Painting selected verses in rainbow colours does not automatically confer authenticity; you know. Or perhaps you don't know...sighh!

OLAADEGBU:

So, if you claim Jesus to be your prophet you will trust and obey for there is no other way.

I obey the words truthfully stated by all my prophets, and found in our Quran; not the 'author unknown' statements found in the NT and falsely foisted on my beloved prophet Isa (saw).

OLAADEGBU:

Are you saying good Muslims don't engage in Al Taqiyya? Even Allah is said to be the greatest of decievers, do you want me to show you where it is written in your holy book?

No, I do not feel like correcting more of those Arabic grammatical blunders that you unlettered extremist pentecostals make. Go find a quantum physicist and argue quantum physics with him instead... mr Know-it-all.

PastorAIO:


Good points? without any corroborating evidence? Before you ask for 'more details', shouldn't you just ask for any details at all.



You are asking for evidence here but you failed to ask for evidence on the other side. Now you want evidence to prove a negative.

Welcome to world of olaadegbu: A world where double standard is used for verifying authenticity

Abuamam:


Oh, the bible is exhaustively corrupted. There is no doubt about that in any intelligent person's mind. The words that you claim to be those of Jesus are more likely to be those of some monk or scribe in the 4th century CE. Of course, if you say the bible is free of corruption, you would have to specify the version. JW version? Douay version? What of homosexual version, feminist version, Kanye West version?

Acts 4:12 is not in the Kanye West version of the Bible, so I couldn't read it (based on your premise that the bible cannot be corrupted, I have decided on the KW version).

If you are saying that God could not keep His Words from being corrupted then you are not a good Muslim for doubting the Power of God. If you are so sure that the Bible is corrupted then quote John 14:6 from any of the Bibles you listed up there and let's see what is different.

Abuamam:


Then what do you do with the following verses (also written in red)...

"Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel." Matthew 10:6 or thereabouts (please put the correct reference for me).

"But he answered... I am not sent but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel..." Matthew 15:24 or thereabouts.

Not that you have proven that Jesus said any of it. Painting selected verses in rainbow colours does not automatically confer authenticity; you know. Or perhaps you don't know...sighh!

Your Qur'an says you should go to the people of the Book for understanding. Jesus' earthly ministry was to bring salvation to the Jews first and then to all nations. Listen to what instruction He gave to His disciples when He was about to ascend into heaven:

"And He said to them, Go ye into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believes and is baptised shall be saved; but he that believes not shall be damned" (Mark 16:15-16).

Abuamam:


I obey the words truthfully stated by all my prophets, and found in our Quran; not the 'author unknown' statements found in the NT and falsely foisted on my beloved prophet Isa (saw).

If I give you words said to be spoken by your prophet Isa would you then believe and obey them?

Abuamam:


No, I do not feel like correcting more of those Arabic grammatical blunders that you unlettered extremist pentecostals make. Go find a quantum physicist and argue quantum physics with him instead... mr Know-it-all.

The Qur'an describes Allah as the best deceiver there is, a liar who is not above using the same evil and wicked schemes of his enemies.

But they (the Jews) were deceptive, and Allah was deceptive, for Allah is the best of deceivers (Wamakaroo wamakara Allahu waAllahu khayru al-makireena)! Surah. 3:54; cf. 8:30

If you understand Arabic read it.

OLAADEGBU:


If you are saying that God could not keep His Words from being corrupted then you are not a good Muslim for doubting the Power of God. If you are so sure that the Bible is corrupted then quote John 14:6 from any of the Bibles you listed up there and let's see what is different.

Is John 14:6 the only verse in the bible? In any case, the Kanye West version has no John 14:6.

God could keep His words from being corrupted... in the Quran. He chose not to... in other scripture.

OLAADEGBU:

Your Qur'an says you should go to the people of the Book for understanding.

Now you want to teach me my religion; lol.

OLAADEGBU:

Jesus' earthly ministry was to bring salvation to the Jews first and then to all nations. Listen to what instruction He gave to His disciples when He was about to ascend into heaven:

"And He said to them, Go ye into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believes and is baptised shall be saved; but he that believes not shall be damned" (Mark 16:15-16).

Mark 16:15 has been invalidated by your scholars...
Modern versions of the New Testament contain the following footnote to Mark 16:9-20:

(NIV) The most reliable early manuscripts and other ancient witnesses do not have Mark 16:9-20.

(NASV) Later mss add vv 9-20 & Some of the oldest manuscripts do not contain vv. 9-20

(Amplified) Some of the earliest manuscripts do not contain verses 9-20.

(ESV) Some of the earliest manuscripts do not include 16:9-20. Some manuscripts end the book with 16:8; others include verses 9-20 immediately after verse 8. A few manuscripts insert additional material after verse 14; one Latin manuscript adds after verse 8 the following: But they reported briefly to Peter and those with him all that they had been told. And after this, Jesus himself sent out by means of them, from east to west, the sacred and imperishable proclamation of eternal salvation. Other manuscripts include this same wording after verse 8, then continue with verses 9-20.

(HCSB) 16:9-20 Other mss omit bracketed text.

(RSV) Other ancient authorities omit verses 9-20. Some ancient authorities conclude Mark instead with the following; But they reported briefly to Peter and those with him all that they had been told. And after this, Jesus himself sent out by means of them, from east to west, the sacred and imperishable proclamation of eternal salvation.

(1881 RV) The two oldest Greek manuscripts, and some other authorities, omit from verse 9 to the end. Some other authorities have a different ending to the Gospel.

(1901 ASV) The two oldest Greek manuscripts, and some other authorities, omit from verse 9 to the end. Some other authorities have a different ending to the Gospel.

(TNIV) The earliest manuscripts and some other ancient witnesses do not have Mark 16:9-20.

OLAADEGBU:

If I give you words said to be spoken by your prophet Isa would you then believe and obey them?

Sure. If you can authenticate their source as being spoken by the prophet Isa (as) through a RELIABLE chain of narrators, linked together and verifiable to their honesty, originating in a proven disciple of Jesus or other honest eyewitness; not some unknown author from 4th century writings.

OLAADEGBU:

The Qur'an describes Allah as the best deceiver there is, a liar who is not above using the same evil and wicked schemes of his enemies.

But they (the Jews) were deceptive, and Allah was deceptive, for Allah is the best of deceivers (Wamakaroo wamakara Allahu waAllahu khayru al-makireena)! Surah. 3:54; cf. 8:30

If you understand Arabic read it.

First, as an Arabic speaker, I know that the noun means 'plotter', not deceiver. I also know that the adjective that defines the noun... "khair" means 'best of...' in a noble or good way. If makr were to mean deceit here, then 'khair ul makireen' would be a misnomer. The verse is only unclear when translated to English, becsuse 'best' does not necessarily denote only 'most good', but also 'most adept', so it can be used both as a positive or negative adjective, as in 'best thief'. In Arabic, that would be impossible.

Cf: 1Kings 22:20 and 2Chronicles 18:22 (among others) where your god REALLY commands deceit and lies.

Abuamam:


Is John 14:6 the only verse in the bible? In any case, the Kanye West version has no John 14:6.

God could keep His words from being corrupted... in the Quran. He chose not to... in other scripture.

Are you saying God could not keep His Words from being corrupted for over 600 years when the Qur'an was written? Don't be deceived. Almost all the prophets that God used in recording His Words were Jews. Jesus said salvation is of the Jews but henceforth the true worshippers will worship Him in Spirit and in Truth. You better be sure you are in the truth and not sold a lie.

Abuamam:


Now you want to teach me my religion; lol.

Yes, using your own manual.

Can you tell me whether prophet Jesus was lying when he prophesied in Surah Maryam, Aya 33 (19:33)?

"So peace is on me the day I was born, the day I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)!"

Abuamam:


Mark 16:15 has been invalidated by your scholars...
Modern versions of the New Testament contain the following footnote to Mark 16:9-20:

(NIV) The most reliable early manuscripts and other ancient witnesses do not have Mark 16:9-20.

(NASV) Later mss add vv 9-20 & Some of the oldest manuscripts do not contain vv. 9-20

(Amplified) Some of the earliest manuscripts do not contain verses 9-20.

(ESV) Some of the earliest manuscripts do not include 16:9-20. Some manuscripts end the book with 16:8; others include verses 9-20 immediately after verse 8. A few manuscripts insert additional material after verse 14; one Latin manuscript adds after verse 8 the following: But they reported briefly to Peter and those with him all that they had been told. And after this, Jesus himself sent out by means of them, from east to west, the sacred and imperishable proclamation of eternal salvation. Other manuscripts include this same wording after verse 8, then continue with verses 9-20.

(HCSB) 16:9-20 Other mss omit bracketed text.

(RSV) Other ancient authorities omit verses 9-20. Some ancient authorities conclude Mark instead with the following; But they reported briefly to Peter and those with him all that they had been told. And after this, Jesus himself sent out by means of them, from east to west, the sacred and imperishable proclamation of eternal salvation.

(1881 RV) The two oldest Greek manuscripts, and some other authorities, omit from verse 9 to the end. Some other authorities have a different ending to the Gospel.

(1901 ASV) The two oldest Greek manuscripts, and some other authorities, omit from verse 9 to the end. Some other authorities have a different ending to the Gospel.

(TNIV) The earliest manuscripts and some other ancient witnesses do not have Mark 16:9-20.

Those verses could be corroborated by other verses by other disciples who walked, ate and moved with Christ such as the one below:

"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptising them in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen"
Matthew 28:18-20

Abuamam:


Sure. If you can authenticate their source as being spoken by the prophet Isa (as) through a RELIABLE chain of narrators, linked together and verifiable to their honesty, originating in a proven disciple of Jesus or other honest eyewitness; not some unknown author from 4th century writings.

I mean quoting from your Qur'an what prophet Isa said about himself which you are either ignorant about or that you deliberately ignore those words.

Abuamam:


First, as an Arabic speaker, I know that the noun means 'plotter', not deceiver. I also know that the adjective that defines the noun... "khair" means 'best of...' in a noble or good way. If makr were to mean deceit here, then 'khair ul makireen' would be a misnomer. The verse is only unclear when translated to English, becsuse 'best' does not necessarily denote only 'most good', but also 'most adept', so it can be used both as a positive or negative adjective, as in 'best thief'. In Arabic, that would be impossible.

Cf: 1Kings 22:20 and 2Chronicles 18:22 (among others) where your god REALLY commands deceit and lies.

It means plotter, schemer, deceiver or liar. In the Bible only the devil fits that description.

OLAADEGBU:


Has Empiree squeezed Ubenedictus and found that kind of juice I posted earlier on?

ola, what juice are you looking for?

Ubenedictus:


ola, what juice are you looking for?

If you look at past comments that led up to what Empiree said you will get the answer you are looking for.

Abuamam:


You sir, are a truthful christian, you must be catholic. I am sure you cannot possibly be a pentecostal.

OLAADEGBU:


May I ask you what constitutes a "truthful Christian"?

Empiree:


...is when he lies, cheats, bombs muslim countries, allows homosick, walks around naked and says "faith is in the heart", evangelizes by lies, claims god is one with three heads, and many more. These are traits of a truthful christian. Sounds familiar?

OLAADEGBU:


I hope you are not insinuating that Ubenedictus fits into your definition of a "truthful Christian"?

PastorAIO:


No, you may NOT ask. Not while you leave unanswered the same questions posed of you. Unless you are happy for him to answer that when you squeeze a truthful christian you will get truthful christianity juice.

OLAADEGBU:


Has Empiree squeezed Ubenedictus and found that kind of juice I posted earlier on?

OLAADEGBU:


If you look at past comments that led up to what Empir.ee said you will get the answer you are looking for.

i dey give u headache bro

OLAADEGBU:


Are you saying God could not keep His Words from being corrupted for over 600 years when the Qur'an was written? Don't be deceived. Almost all the prophets that God used in recording His Words were Jews. Jesus said salvation is of the Jews but henceforth the true worshippers will worship Him in Spirit and in Truth. You better be sure you are in the truth and not sold a lie.

Your reasoning is like those of atheists who claim that God must be powerless because He does not prevent earthquakes. You feel that He must prevent His words from corruption otherwise He is powerless. It is by His decree that earlier scriptures shall pass away to make way ior the new.

OLAADEGBU:

Yes, using your own manual.

Can you tell me whether prophet Jesus was lying when he prophesied in Surah Maryam, Aya 33 (19:33)?

"So peace is on me the day I was born, the day I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)!"

Prophets of Islam (unlike those of other religions), don't lie. The prophet Isa (as) was born, he will die when he returns, and he will be raised up on the Day of Judgement like every other mortal.

Furthermore, those same words were used for the prophet Yahya (as); whom you call John the Baptist; about 6 or 7 verses earlier in the same Surah Maryam. You are not suggesting that we believe that John the Baptist also died for our sins and rose up on the 3rd day too, are you?

OLAADEGBU:

Those verses could be corroborated by other verses by other disciples who walked, ate and moved with Christ such as the one below:

"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptising them in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen"
Matthew 28:18-20

Matthew 28:18 actually has the same type of K-leg that Mark 16:9-20 has, in the opinion of Doctors of Divinity and other Bible scholars. You are basically using one flawed verse to support another flawed verse. Classic.

I strongly suggest you go to this website, and learn from your Bible scholars, just how the bible was collated and textual criticisms concerning it, so that you do not keep using false verses; until you ultimately start using the apocrypha, trying to pass them off as canon... as one of your brethren in Christ tried to do with the Book of Jubilee, no less. I preferably gave you a website that is fully christian, so you can educate yourself without fear of conversion.

http://www.bible-researcher.com/title.html

OLAADEGBU:

I mean quoting from your Qur'an what prophet Isa said about himself which you are either ignorant about or that you deliberately ignore those words.

I have addressed that earlier. I am neither ignorant of the words, nor do I ignore them. I just do not use selective translation as you do. You start with a doctrine, and desperately seek a way to mold verses to suit that doctrine. We Muslims base our doctrine on historical narrations that explain those verses; made by the prophet (saw) to his companions; who was the bearer of the message and its most knowledgeable interpreter... end.

OLAADEGBU:

It means plotter, schemer, deceiver or liar. In the Bible only the devil fits that description.

Maybe the Bible; having been translated from Armaic, classical Greek, Hebrew, Koine, Latin and what have you; may not be the ideal 'scripture' to use as a standard for language; so there is no real basis for your comparison. As for lying and deceit, you failed to address the verse I presented for your explanation. Or do you admit that your God commanded lying spirits to inspire 400 prophets to deceive; according to your Bible?

OLAADEGBU:


I can understand where you are coming from. We both share different perspectives on what a Christian means. [b]You believe that a person can be born into a Christian family, or that having Christian names or traditions makes them a Christian. [/b]A traditional Christian maybe, but all these do not constitute who a Christian really is. Christianity is not a religion as you have been led to believe, it is a relationship with our Lord Jesus Christ, it is not a tradition but a lifestyle. It is not practising works of righteousness that makes you a Christian but putting on the righteousness of God which we get by repenting from our sin and trusting in the blood of Jesus Christ for the salvation of our souls. PastorAIO, be ye born again.

Please show me where I defined a christian as you mentioned above. Do so or admit that you've lied on my head. I do accept apologies when someone lies on my head. Are you man enough to do so?

Abuamam:


Your reasoning is like those of atheists who claim that God must be powerless because He does not prevent earthquakes. You feel that He must prevent His words from corruption otherwise He is powerless. It is by His decree that earlier scriptures shall pass away to make way ior the new.

If you are a good Muslim you will know what your Qur'an and Hadiths said about God's Word cannot be corrupted, but you seem to be ignorant of this. Do you want me to show you where this is in your Qur'an?

Abuamam:


Prophets of Islam (unlike those of other religions), don't lie. The prophet Isa (as) was born, he will die when he returns, and he will be raised up on the Day of Judgement like every other mortal.

Furthermore, those same words were used for the prophet Yahya (as); whom you call John the Baptist; about 6 or 7 verses earlier in the same Surah Maryam. You are not suggesting that we believe that John the Baptist also died for our sins and rose up on the 3rd day too, are you?


Matthew 28:18 actually has the same type of K-leg that Mark 16:9-20 has, in the opinion of Doctors of Divinity and other Bible scholars. You are basically using one flawed verse to support another flawed verse. Classic.

I strongly suggest you go to this website, and learn from your Bible scholars, just how the bible was collated and textual criticisms concerning it, so that you do not keep using false verses; until you ultimately start using the apocrypha, trying to pass them off as canon... as one of your brethren in Christ tried to do with the Book of Jubilee, no less. I preferably gave you a website that is fully christian, so you can educate yourself without fear of conversion.

Let's leave the Bible out of this for now as it seems you don't know what you're yapping about. Would you then believe if I show you another verse from your Qur'an that says that Jesus would die and be resurrected?

Abuamam:


I have addressed that earlier. I am neither ignorant of the words, nor do I ignore them. I just do not use selective translation as you do. You start with a doctrine, and desperately seek a way to mold verses to suit that doctrine. We Muslims base our doctrine on historical narrations that explain those verses; made by the prophet (saw) to his companions; who was the bearer of the message and its most knowledgeable interpreter... end.

You mean narrations for your imams at the mosque that explains the verses away?

Abuamam:


Maybe the Bible; having been translated from Armaic, classical Greek, Hebrew, Koine, Latin and what have you; may not be the ideal 'scripture' to use as a standard for language; so there is no real basis for your comparison. As for lying and deceit, you failed to address the verse I presented for your explanation. Or do you admit that your God commanded lying spirits to inspire 400 prophets to deceive; according to your Bible?

Do a comparison between Allah and Yahweh in the video clip below and see who Allah really is as he is described in the Bible.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NFn042VA-VA

PastorAIO:


Please show me where I defined a christian as you mentioned above. Do so or admit that you've lied on my head. I do accept apologies when someone lies on my head. Are you man enough to do so?

You may not have defined Christianity as I had mentioned. I only summarised what I think you believe due to my debate with you on this forum. Accept my apologies if they do not accurately portray your stand. And I would appreciate it if you can declare to us where you stand on what makes one a Christian.

Hitler, God and the Bible


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9iNjWDkO5-M

OLAADEGBU:


You may not have defined Christianity as I had mentioned. I only summarised what I think you believe due to my debate with you on this forum. Accept my apologies if they do not accurately portray your stand. And I would appreciate it if you can declare to us where you stand on what makes one a Christian.

A Christian, a disciple of Christ, in my humble opinion is one who practises the teachings of Jesus christ including such teachings about hypocrisy and bigotry and seeing specks in other's eyes while one has a block in one's eye. Teachings such as praying out in public places so as to be seen by others. and many others.

PastorAIO:


A Christian, a disciple of Christ, in my humble opinion is one who practises the teachings of Jesus christ including such teachings about hypocrisy and bigotry and seeing specks in other's eyes while one has a block in one's eye. Teachings such as praying out in public places so as to be seen by others. and many others.

My question was what makes one a Christian? We cannot practise the teachings of Jesus without becoming a Christian first. What makes one a Christian. Are you also saying that Paul was not a Christian because he too prayed in the open place?

OLAADEGBU:

My question was what makes one a Christian? We cannot practise the teachings of Jesus without becoming a Christian first. What makes one a Christian. Are you also saying that Paul was not a Christian because he too prayed in the open place?

You can practise the teachings of Christ simply by practising them. It is not magic. Christianity is synonymous with this practise. There is no way that you become a 'christian first' before you take up even one single teaching to practise.

I don't know about Paul's public prayer but I do know that Jesus taught against Public prayer, in which case if Paul did so then Paul was wrong to do so. If he acknowledged that he was wrong and set to rectify his mistake then all good but if he insists on doing his own then yes, he is not a christian.

PastorAIO:


You can practise the teachings of Christ simply by practising them. It is not magic. Christianity is synonymous with this practise. There is no way that you become a 'christian first' before you take up even one single teaching to practise.

You can only practise the teachings of Christ after you've received the grace of God that brought salvation to all men without which you will only be practising religion which is different from Christianity. Our works of righteousness does not qualify us to be Christians. Without Christ we can do nothing.

PastorAIO:


I don't know about Paul's public prayer but I do know that Jesus taught against Public prayer, in which case if Paul did so then Paul was wrong to do so. If he acknowledged that he was wrong and set to rectify his mistake then all good but if he insists on doing his own then yes, he is not a christian.

Our Lord Jesus did not teach against public prayer because He too prayed publicly. He only taught against the love of praying publicly for the ulterior motive to be seen and praised by men. Paul prayed in public and it was not condemned.

OLAADEGBU:


You can only practise the teachings of Christ after you've received the grace of God that brought salvation to all men without which you will only be practising religion which is different from Christianity. Our works of righteousness does not qualify us to be Christians. Without Christ we can do nothing.

That's your version.

As for praying to be seen by men, that was what I said originally.

Hmmm,

this is the first time I've heard pastoraio define a Christian and his thought seem pretty original.


Pastor, you say a Christian is a "disciple of Jesus Christ" and to you a disciple is simply anyone who practices the teaching of Christ particularly his moral teachings,

what then is your opinion on the last chapter of matthew where Jesus teaches "make disciples of all nations baptising them... Teach them all I command you...", why does he mention stuff like baptism as a begining for his "cult" Not just his moral teaching?

Ubenedictus:
Hmmm,

this is the first time I've heard pastoraio define a Christian and his thought seem pretty original.


Pastor, you say a Christian is a "disciple of Jesus Christ" and to you a disciple is simply anyone who practices the teaching of Christ particularly his moral teachings,

what then is your opinion on the last chapter of matthew where Jesus teaches "make disciples of all nations baptising them... Teach them all I command you...", why does he mention stuff like baptism as a begining for his "cult" Not just his moral teaching?

They certainly seem unique, my thoughts. I'll admit that, and I don't intend to foist them upon anyone.

You've specified his moral teachings, not I. Jesus taught Baptism too, as did John, and as did the Essenes (I speculate). Jesus also taught us to celebrate Eucharist. It is those that practise all these teachings that I'm more inclined to call christians.

Thinking further on why you would try to squeeze into my mouth that I was referring just to Christ's moral teachings, I presume it could be because I emphasised these:

including such teachings about hypocrisy and bigotry and seeing specks in other's eyes while one has a block in one's eye. Teachings such as praying out in public places so as to be seen by others. and many others.

I emphasised those teachings because of my history of interactions with Olaadegbu and not because I consider them to more important than any other teachings.

PastorAIO:


They certainly seem unique, my thoughts. I'll admit that, and I don't intend to foist them upon anyone.

You've specified his moral teachings, not I. Jesus taught Baptism too, as did John, and as did the Essenes (I speculate). Jesus also taught us to celebrate Eucharist. It is those that practise all these teachings that I'm more inclined to call christians.

Thinking further on why you would try to squeeze into my mouth that I was referring just to Christ's moral teachings, I presume it could be because I emphasised these:

I emphasised those teachings because of my history of interactions with Olaadegbu and not because I consider them to more important than any other teachings.

you aren't speculating the Essenes did practice baptism, baptism is older than John the baptist, even mainstream Judaism may have practiced it at the time.

I'm sorry for puting my assumptions in your mouth, I am just trying to get a feel of your thought.

I am still a bit suprised that you define a Christian as on who practices the teachings of Jesus not just as one who believes, I'm a bit curious, does the person have to put all Jesus' teaching into practice before he is called a Christian or does the desire to do so suffice?

Ubenedictus:


you aren't speculating the Essenes did practice baptism, baptism is older than John the baptist, even mainstream Judaism may have practiced it at the time.

I'm sorry for puting my assumptions in your mouth, I am just trying to get a feel of your thought.

I am still a bit suprised that you define a Christian as on who practices the teachings of Jesus not just as one who believes, I'm a bit curious, does the person have to put all Jesus' teaching into practice before he is called a Christian or does the desire to do so suffice?

To be honest, my notion of a christian is kinda amorphous. I have even gone as far, on NL, as rejecting the label for myself and stopped calling myself a christian. I felt the name was just too cheap and that there were too many diverse beliefs and practices, even contradictory, under the banner of christianity.

What do you mean as one who believes? Believes what? Can the demons too believe?

I've often said that people should take on the practice according to how much they think they can endure. It is not so easy to shake off our attachments to worldly things. Then compare the results to how much you are practising. If the little you're doing seems to be working then that should give you faith/confidence to take on even more and go deeper into the practice. I don't know if you can say that makes the person only a partial christian. Maybe it's like a caravan of travellers. Some are ahead on the path, some lag behind but everyone has put their leg on the road so they are all travellers.

PastorAIO:


To be honest, my notion of a christian is kinda amorphous. I have even gone as far, on NL, as rejecting the label for myself and stopped calling myself a christian. I felt the name was just too cheap and that there were too many diverse beliefs and practices, even contradictory, under the banner of christianity.

What do you mean as one who believes? Believes what? Can the demons too believe?

I've often said that people should take on the practice according to how much they think they can endure. It is not so easy to shake off our attachments to worldly things. Then compare the results to how much you are practising. If the little you're doing seems to be working then that should give you faith/confidence to take on even more and go deeper into the practice. I don't know if you can say that makes the person only a partial christian. Maybe it's like a caravan of travellers. Some are ahead on the path, some lag behind but everyone has put their leg on the road so they are all travellers.

if Christianity is a journey then "how to be a Christian?" simply means how to begin the journey. Do you begin by doing or first by believing.

PastorAIO:


That's your version.

Let the Bible speak and tell us how to become a Christian:

"Now after John had been taken into custody, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God, and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel." (Mark 1:14-15).

and saying, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven has come near." (Matthew 3:2)

From that time on Jesus began to preach, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven has come near" (Matthew 4:17).

Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38).

"I have declared to both Jews and Greeks that they must turn to God in repentance and have faith in our Lord Jesus" (Acts 20:21).

It is clear that we must repent and believe the gospel to become a Christian.

PastorAIO:


As for praying to be seen by men, that was what I said originally.

Do you now accept that praying in the public is not forbidden if it is not to be seen by men?

PastorAIO:


I emphasised those teachings because of my history of interactions with Olaadegbu and not because I consider them to more important than any other teachings.

Can you quote where I have committed those vices that you have accused me of so that I can examine myself in the light of Scriptures? In the absence of evidence I will be expecting an unreserved apology from you.

Ubenedictus:


if Christianity is a journey then "how to be a Christian?" simply means how to begin the journey. Do you begin by doing or first by believing.

That is the question and I don't believe Christianity starts with being baptised in water, it starts with believing the gospel truth.

Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38).

OLAADEGBU:


That is the question and I don't believe Christianity starts with being baptised in water, it starts with believing the gospel truth.

Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38).

according to the the passage you quoted , the first step is repentance not faith. according to those passages u begin d journey by metanoia, faith and baptism.

OLAADEGBU:


Can you quote where I have committed those vices that you have accused me of so that I can examine myself in the light of Scriptures? In the absence of evidence I will be expecting an unreserved apology from you.

Just go to almost every thread you've opened about Catholics, or about Obama. etc. etc. etc
I'm not in the mood to go digging.

Ubenedictus:


if Christianity is a journey then "how to be a Christian?" simply means how to begin the journey. Do you begin by doing or first by believing.

I don't understand your need to distinguish doing from believing. They are like hand and glove. What you do accords totally with what you believe, and if you believe you will do accordingly.

Your question is like asking what comes first, the desire for food or hunger.

OLAADEGBU:


Let the Bible speak and tell us how to become a Christian:

"Now after John had been taken into custody, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God, and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel." (Mark 1:14-15).

and saying, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven has come near." (Matthew 3:2)

From that time on Jesus began to preach, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven has come near" (Matthew 4:17).

Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38).

"I have declared to both Jews and Greeks that they must turn to God in repentance and have faith in our Lord Jesus" (Acts 20:21).

It is clear that we must repent and believe the gospel to become a Christian.



Do you now accept that praying in the public is not forbidden if it is not to be seen by men?

What was the gospel that Jesus was preaching? Was he preaching about his death and resurrection? Is that what Jesus was asking his audience?

And as for praying in public, what you are saying there is utter rubbish. If it is not seen by men then it is not public. Check out the meaning of public.