jacobscros: Job curses the day he was born , saying that the day should not be marked on earth and should be left out of the year. - he must have been born on february 29th

God mentions fire breathing dragons, unicorns and mammoths towards the end of this book. They existed.

plaetton:

Glad you noticed.
Job also mentioned many of the ancient Greek gods found in Greek myths.
Now if the bible is truth, then job is truth, and if job is telling truth, then The Greek God Typhon and others mentioned by job must also be true.
Do you agree?

plaetton:

Glad you noticed.
Job also mentioned many of the ancient Greek gods found in Greek myths.
Now if the bible is truth, then job is truth, and if job is telling truth, then The Greek God Typhon and others mentioned by job must also be true.
Do you agree?

Mr_Anony:
Please cite these verses that mention Greek gods.........especially Typhon.

plaetton: Chapter 41:1-10 makes reference to The mythical sea creature leviathan and another makes reference to another mythical creature Behemoth.

Though many have pointed out the similarity between the Leviathan and the mythical Greek equivalent, Typhon.
My error, Which I admit, was in thinking both to be the same.

However, the essential fact remain that the book of job incorporates much of Greek, Egyptian and Mesopotamian mythology, so much so that many scholars hold the opinion that it is simply an abbreviated versions of a much older epic poem from these cultures.

plaetton: Chapter 41:1-10 makes reference to The mythical sea creature leviathan and another makes reference to another mythical creature Behemoth.

Though many have pointed out the similarity between the Leviathan and the mythical Greek equivalent, Typhon.
My error, Which I admit, was in thinking both to be the same.

However, the essential fact remain that the book of job incorporates much of Greek, Egyptian and Mesopotamian mythology, so much so that many scholars hold the opinion that it is simply an abbreviated versions of a much older epic poem from these cultures.

Mr_Anony:

What you missed however is that the book of Job predates the Greek civilization. Traditionally, Job is believed to have lived centuries before Moses. So if anything, It is Greeks doing the plagiarizing as one cannot possibly copy from a text written after him.

Mr_Anony:

What you missed however is that the book of Job predates the Greek civilization. Traditionally, Job is believed to have lived centuries before Moses. So if anything, It is Greeks doing the plagiarizing as one cannot possibly copy from a text written after him.

Another thing I would like you to note is that it doesn't mention any Greek gods. It mentions Orion and Pleiades but definitely not as gods but as star constellations. It is the Greeks that will later come up with proper personalities for these terms

Mr_Anony:

What you missed however is that the book of Job predates the Greek civilization. Traditionally, Job is believed to have lived centuries before Moses. So if anything, It is Greeks doing the plagiarizing as one cannot possibly copy from a text written after him.

Another thing I would like you to note is that it doesn't mention any Greek gods. It mentions Orion and Pleiades but definitely not as gods but as star constellations. It is the Greeks that will later come up with proper personalities for these terms

plaetton:

How did you arrive at the fact that it predates the Greek civilization? If as you say, the book of jobs predates the Greek, it would also mean that it predates Jacob, Isaac and Abraham
In which case it would be of Summerian or Egyptian in origin. If so, these culture had pantheons of gods. Which god could have the subject of this epic poem?
Certainly not Jehovah.

plaetton:

How did you arrive at the fact that it predates the Greek civilization? If as you say, the book of jobs predates the Greek, it would also mean that it predates Jacob, Isaac and Abraham.
In which case it would be of Summerian or Egyptian in origin. If so, these culture had pantheons of gods. Which god could have the subject of this epic poem?
Certainly not Jehovah.

Mr_Anony:

Wow, how do you think?
First you find a book in Hebrew literature about Job who the Hebrews themselves believe to have lived in the Genesis era. prior to Moses and the Exodus (in fact many believe that the book of Job was written by Moses).

The book clearly refers to an Almighty God who the Hebrews have been worshiping before going to Egypt as slaves. The Hebrews don't believe that God suddenly appears with Moses but that God is everlasting and has been since Adam.
To ask which God was the subject of the book of Job, you may as well ask which God was being referred to in the story of Noah and Abraham e.t.c.


The problem I see here is that you want to force the book to be anything else but a Hebrew book.

Ihedinobi:

Per the bolded part, it probably does or it happened around the same time as Abraham (personally I think it was before Abraham maybe a little after the Flood). One certain thing is that it happened at a time that men still lived much longer than a hundred years (at least averaging two hundred years) considering that he lost his grown children in the unfolding of events that the entire story was founded on and, at the end of his period of pain, had more children whom he witnessed grow up and have children who also had children that he saw before he died.

Yes, sir, way back then, many cultures had replaced God in their thoughts with their own imaginations no doubt. But there were exceptions. In the time of Abraham, for instance, a whole nation called Gerar, the Philistine nation, was a nation that feared God. There was the nation, Salem, whose king, Melchizedek was a priest of the Most High. No doubt, pantheons of gods existed, but God did too, and Job was one of those that feared Him.

As for the "mythical" creatures, I wonder that we could so easily lose sight of the reality of species extinction. We see it all around us today. I won't argue about animals that breathe fire, but I'll say that we very certainly have far less in number of species than the world started out with. Therefore, it's incorrect to argue that the creatures mentioned there are mythical simply because they don't exist today. 500 years from now, much less even, people reading histories of today may wonder that there were ever in existence certain weird animals that we take for granted today.

Also, why "certainly not Jehovah"? Why can't the book of Job have been about Jehovah?

plaetton:

Mr Anony sir, you are the one that wrote that the book of job predated the Greek civilisation, did you not?.
Now you are saying that it was probably written by Moses? So are you saying that Moses predated the greek civilization as well?

C'mon sir, it is very very common knowledge among historians, academics as well as theologians that genesis [/b]is an abbreviated version of much older, much larger and more detailed tales coming from Mesopotamia, chiefly Summer via Babylon.

This is why we talk about the incompatibilty of faith and reason. Even when the theologians of your religion agree to this, your [b]faith just wont allow you to see through the mist.

"God Almighty " is a generic term employed by the translators of the bible to hide the embarrassing fact that the bible mentioned numerous gods and deities.More than 300 references to other gods.
Today's translations have compressed all biblical deities into one "god almighty".
So much for the infallible and incorruptible word of god, huh?

Please read the preface to your bible. This fact is made very simple and clear in the preface to any authentic bible.

plaetton:

With all due respect sir, you know not what you are writing about.
Are you saying that the philistines nation existed during the time of Abraham? where did you get this fact?

Where and when did " most high" translate to Jehovah?

All cultures and civilizations in that era were polythiestic. There was not a single monothiestic religion. So pl;s stop this irrationality.
Even Abraham's father served other god[/b]s. have you not read this?

Do you guys read your bible at all?

Mr_Anony:
This how not to argue. What you are doing is similar to saying that the American red Indian tribes didn't exist before Columbus came to America. Philistines would still exist even if they were not called Philistines at the time of Abraham but just to shut you up, Here's a verse for you.

There was a famine in the land, besides the first famine that was in the days of Abraham. And Isaac went to Abimelech king of the Philistines, in Gerar.
Gen 26:1

....By the way, the point wasn't about whether they were called Philistines or not, the point was that they feared God in Gerar.


You may want to tell us who else the bible refers to as Most High. Another verse for you

Then Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine; he was the priest of God Most High. And he blessed him and said: “Blessed be Abram of God Most High Gen 14:18-19

Perhaps you may want to tell me that they were worshiping two different God-Most-High(s)


This is an unfounded statement, you have been provided with two nations that are exceptions to that statement. Besides, I don't see how Terah (Abraham's father) worshiping many gods has anything to do with the claim that ALL NATIONS were polytheistic.



Except of course that He just happens to be the Most High God who doesn't permit the worship of any other gods besides him.


Hold it a minute. Are you saying that God told Moses and Abraham that He was probably known by another name amongst many gods but now He wants to be known as God alone?
You may want to cite bible references for this.


Apparently we do read our bibles and guess what? It doesn't agree with you.....unless of course you are about to show me some bible verses that support your rant. I am actually very interested in seeing the bible verses you'll come up with.

Mr_Anony:
My mistake, I was thinking about the Greek civilization as around the time shortly before Alexander the Great


You may want to call some of these historians and theologians by name and cite some of their works


Really? I am not aware of this. Can you provide proof?

You may want to mention some of these theologians by name so that I can look them up

Really? I wonder how "many gods" would constantly emphasize that God is one as well as be totally against all forms of polytheism. Anyway, I am interested in these "300 references" if you can provide us with a few of them.

...... unfortunately, I can't take this comment seriously as you have just indirectly redefined an "authentic bible" as any bible that supports this claim of yours.
by the way, the preface of my bible does not contain this so called "fact"

plaetton:
Here is the big problem and the big folly of people of faith.
Do not come out in public and try to argue faith with reason. It does not work.
Right now, you ar enot only arguing with me , but you are against an entire academic and historical and theological estalishment.
Stop and take a breath and re-affirm your faith. That is all you have and that is all it is about.

You accept everything written in the bible, that is fine. No can take that from you. But to insist ,on a public domain, that they are true, consistent and of devine source is just folly, just to use a generous word.



Evolution vs. creationism. Bible topics & stories.

Comparing two creation stories: from
Genesis and Babylonian pagan sources


Creation stories from the ancient Middle East:

Walter Reinhold Warttig Mattfeld y de la Torre writes that one of his articles:

"... is an attempt to briefly identify some of the Ancient Near Eastern Motifs and Myths from which the Hebrews apparently borrowed, adapted, and reworked in the Book of Genesis (more specifically Genesis 1-11).

It is my understanding that Genesis' motifs and characters, God, Adam, Eve, the Serpent, and Noah, are adaptations and transformations of characters and events occurring in earlier Near Eastern Myths. In some cases several characters and motifs from different myths have been brought together and amalgamated into Genesis' stories. 2

He quotes W.G. Lambert:

"The authors of ancient cosmologies were essentially compilers. Their originality was expressed in new combinations of old themes, and in new twists to old ideas."

I believe Lambert's observation can be applied to the Hebrews who were combining old themes and putting "new twists" to old ideas. My research indicates that, at times, "reversals" are occurring in the Hebrew transformation and re-interpretation of the Mesopotamian myths. These "reversals," as I call them, can take the form of different characters, different locations for the settings of the stories, and different morals being drawn about the nature of God and Man's relationship.

De la Torre concludes that Genesis 1-11:

"... appears to be a reformatting of motifs and characters from four Mesopotamian myths:

Adapa and the South Wind,

Atrahasis,

the Epic of Gilgamesh and

the Enuma Elish."
Of these four sources, Enuma Elish has the closest parallels with the first creation story in Genesis.

Wikipedia comments that the ancient Hebrews did not simply adopt the Babylonian myths; they sometimes inverted them in order to fit into their worldview. Two examples are: 3

In the Babylonian myth, the serpent, Ningishzida, is a friend to Adapa who helps him in his search for immortality.

In Genesis, the serpent is the enemy of Adam, trying to trick him out of the chance to understand good and evil by developing a moral sense and thus becoming fully human.

The gods of the Babylonians became the ancient Israelites' god.
Also:

The Mesopotamians had adopted a worldview in which the Earth had gradually improved since creation.

The ancient Hebrews adopted a worldview in which the universe was created perfect but degenerated to the point where God had to initiate the largest genocide in history -- killing every person from newborn to the elderly in the flood of Noah.


Comparison of Genesis' first Creation Story with Enuma Elish, a Babylonian creation story

The Babylonian creation story is called by its first two words "Enuma Elish." According to archaeologists, it was originally written circa 1120 BCE. It was discovered in 1875 CE. It bears many points of similarity to the first creation story in the Bible

plaetton:

It is not my responsiblity to educate you about the history of your religion.

Yes, the more than 300 references to other gods in the bible can no longer be found because, the human editors [/b]of the [b]infallible and perfect word of god found them too embarrassing, so they simply edited them out by using the words "God", the "lord", "Lord almighty". Like I said, if you read the preface to your bible, these things are explained in simple language.

The Summerian cuiniform tablets and their translations are available for all to study. There are no ambiguities or controveresies about what they say or that they predate the old testament chronicles by thousands of years.
Creation of man, tower of babylon, Noah's flood, its all there in summerian tablets.

The ancient hebrews, while in Babylon, simply copied and transposed their own chief god, and viola! we have the bible.
Even the pope, the bonafide head of your faith, tacitly agrees with this in the arcticle to which I posted links.

N:B
What do you think of psalms 82?

Let me help you.

1. God presides in the great assembly;
he renders judgment among the “gods”:
(NIV version)

2. God stands in the congregation of the mighty;
He judges among the gods
(NKJV)

3. God has taken his place in the divine council; in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:
(New Revised Standard)

4.Psalm 82 (Greek numbering: Psalm 81) is the 82nd psalm in the biblical Book of Psalms. God is stationing himself in the assembly of the Divine One; in the middle of the gods he judges.
(wikipaedia)

From all the above, what picture do you get?.

1.That the there has been a deliberate effort to mistranslate and obfuscate the central message of psalms 82.
2. That Yahweh, as is evident in the bible, was just one of many deities of the ancient Canaan and the later, the hebrews.
3. That from time to time, just like the Egyptian, Summerian and Babylonian pantheons, The gods sat in council to judge one another and pronounce binding judgements.

If this escapes you, then dont hold me responsible to educate you and show you proof.
Proof ni, proof ko.

plaetton:

It is not my responsiblity to educate you about the history of your religion.

Yes, the more than 300 references to other gods in the bible can no longer be found because, the human editors of the infallible and perfect word of god found them too embarrassing, so they simply edited them out by using the words "God", the "lord", "Lord almighty". Like I said, if you read the preface to your bible, these things are explained in simple language.

The Summerian cuiniform tablets and their translations are available for all to study. There are no ambiguities or controveresies about what they say or that they predate the old testament chronicles by thousands of years.
Creation of man, tower of babylon, Noah's flood, its all there in summerian tablets.

The ancient hebrews, while in Babylon, simply copied and transposed their own chief god, and viola! we have the bible.
Even the pope, the bonafide head of your faith, tacitly agrees with this in the arcticle to which I posted links.

N:B
What do you think of psalms 82?

Let me help you.

1. God presides in the great assembly;
he renders judgment among the “gods”:
(NIV version)

2. God stands in the congregation of the mighty;
He judges among the gods
(NKJV)

3. God has taken his place in the divine council; in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:
(New Revised Standard)

4.Psalm 82 (Greek numbering: Psalm 81) is the 82nd psalm in the biblical Book of Psalms. God is stationing himself in the assembly of the Divine One; in the middle of the gods he judges.
(wikipaedia)

From all the above, what picture do you get?.

1.That the there has been a deliberate effort to mistranslate and obfuscate the central message of psalms 82.

2. That Yahweh, as is evident in the bible, was just one of many deities of the ancient Canaan and the later, the hebrews.

3. That from time to time, just like the Egyptian, Summerian and Babylonian pantheons, The gods sat in council to judge one another and pronounce binding judgements.

If this escapes you, then dont hold me responsible to educate you and show you proof.
Proof ni, proof ko.

cyrexx: Science shares with religion the claim that it answers deep questions about origins, the nature of life, and the cosmos. But there the resemblance ends. Scientific beliefs are supported by evidence, and they get results. Myths and faiths are not and do not."
— Richard Dawkins, River out of Eden[/color]

ijawkid:

The psalms 82:1 u quoted aint referring to pagan GODS my bro...
ELOHIM is used of men,human judges in isreal..Jesus even quoted from this psalm @ john 10:34 $ 35..

they were GODS in their capacity as representatives of and spokesmen for YAHWEH..

Just as moses was similarly told that he was to serve as ""GOD"" to aeron and pharoah.. Read exodus 4:16 and exodus 7:1

Exodus 7:1..

##Douay-Rheims Bible
And the Lord said to Moses: Behold I have
appointed thee the God of Pharao: and Aaron
thy brother shall be thy prophet.

Exodus 4:16

##English Revised Version
And he shall be thy spokesman unto the people:
and it shall come to pass, that he shall be to
thee a mouth, and thou shalt be to him as God....

My point??

That verse wasn't and isn't reffering to some pagan GODs in which Yahweh was there supreme judge,rather it was pointing to isrealite judges and Yahwehs representatives....

YAHWEH is the supreme GOD over all GODS...he is the GOD OF all GODS.....

Wether in heaven or on earth....

He doesn't need to sit down with some cheap idols to render judgement or discuss issues...

There was no mistranslation of that verse...it is what it is....!!!!

Ihedinobi:

Well, when you take it upon yourself to discredit this "religion" because of your superior knowledge and understanding of it, you are burdened as well with the responsibility to prove that your knowledge is indeed superior.



First bolded. Where is the proof that they did so? How do you know it to be true?
Second bolded. I have three Bibles, one the New International Version, another the King James Version, and the third the Amplified Bible. I have access to the New Living Translation too. In none of their prefaces have I read such a thing. You could quote one preface so that we can see if it is a misunderstanding on our part.



First bolded. Says who? Why should we believe they indeed predate the Old Testament accounts? Also, what if (and I'm not saying at all that he did) Moses copied from more ancient documents to preserve the information? Then again, why can it not be the Sumerians who took the true history and transposed their own gods or expunged Yahweh?



That the Greatest of all Gods calls for a council of gods in order to thrash out issues and make conclusions.



How so?



How so?



How does that verse say anything like that?



You showed no proof. You took a portion of the Bible, isolated it from its context and put upon it all the meanings that suit your own idiosyncracies and demanded that we accept them to be true. That only calls for the question, "why should we believe your interpretations to be true and correct?"

plaetton:

I am laughing and rolling on the floor.

Why do you people try to defend the indefencable?
I dont know how to reply you without seeming disrespectful.
But this is probably the silliest, the most desperate and fraudulent aattempt to defend what is clearly indefenceable.

So elohim now refers to men?
WTF?
In what language and In what translation?
So god sat with the assembly of Isrealite judges?
Complex Ignorance on parade.
Pls sir, desist from uttering such nonsense.

Listen, there are a lots of things you and I do not understand in the bible and in life. ok.
It is not a crime not to know something.ok
Do not try to defend what you do not know with juvenile logic.ok