Saints and Sinners
July 11, 2013

"Then Job answered the LORD, and said, Behold, I am vile; what shall I answer thee? I will lay mine hand upon my mouth" (Job 40:3-4).

It is remarkable how the saintliest of men often confess to being the worst of sinners. The patriarch Job was said by God Himself to be "a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil" (Job 1:8 ). Yet when Job saw God, he could only say, "Behold, I am vile."

And consider Abraham, who is called "the father of all them that believe" (Romans 4:11). When he presumed to talk to God, however, Abraham said that he was "but dust and ashes" (Genesis 18:27).

David, "the sweet psalmist of Israel" (2 Samuel 23:1), and "a man after |God's| own heart" (1 Samuel 13:14), said: "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me" (Psalm 51:5). Isaiah, the greatest of the prophets, testified when he came into God's presence: "Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips" (Isaiah 6:5).

The angel recognized Daniel the prophet as "a man greatly beloved" by God (Daniel 10:11). Yet when Daniel saw God, he fell on his face and said: "My comeliness was turned in me into corruption, and I retained no strength" (Daniel 10:8 ).

In the New Testament, the apostle Peter said: "I am a sinful man, O Lord" (Luke 5:8 ), and Paul called himself the chief of sinners (1 Timothy 1:15). God dwells "in the light which no man can approach unto" (1 Timothy 6:16).

The closer one comes to the Lord, the more clearly one sees his own sinfulness and the more wonderful becomes God's amazing grace. No one who is satisfied with his or her own state of holiness has yet come to know the Lord in His state of holiness! None dare face the Lord except by His grace through the mediator Jesus Christ. HMM

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Leaving aside "elementary things" such as the advert above, let us go deep into apostolic doctrines.

Ola, are you still a sinner or a saint as a Christian?

Goshen360: Leaving aside "elementary things" such as the advert above, let us go deep into apostolic doctrines.

Ola, are you still a sinner or a saint as a Christian?

A saint. You are yet to answer my set of kweshions.

OLAADEGBU:

A saint. You are yet to answer my set of kweshions.

If you believe and say you're a saint. How and what makes you a saint?

(2) As a saint, can you be a SAINT and at the same time a SINNER?

You want this guy to run away from this thread, he hates questions like this.

Subscribing

By the way Ola, I will like to know how you get all these hell and heaven stories I have been seeing around. Do we really need promoting those stuffs to preach the message of the cross?

Goshen360:

If you believe and say you're a saint. How and what makes you a saint?

Mr. questioner, what are you, a sinner or a saint? Answering this will move this dialogue along.

Goshen360:

(2) As a saint, can you be a SAINT and at the same time a SINNER?

For your information, a saint is not a sinner and a sinner is not a saint.

superior1: Subscribing

By the way Ola, I will like to know how you get all these hell and heaven stories I have been seeing around. Do we really need promoting those stuffs to preach the message of the cross?

These revelations and visions are not new, they are in the bible if you are conversant with it. More of these visions and revelations are bound to come according to His promises in these last days.

"And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions. And upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit" (Joel 2:28-29).

OLAADEGBU:

These revelations and visions are not new, they are in the bible if you are conversant with it. More of these visions and revelations are bound to come according to His promises in these last days.

"And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions. And upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit" (Joel 2:28-29).

So you agree that we were promised dreams and visions not out of body witchcraft or near death hallucinating experiences.

Also , Paul is quite clear that no man was permitted to speak of the things he saw. There was no tour of hell and heaven , rather Paul was given a vision of paradise.

When you review the visions seen in the bible ,not one of them lines up with your heretical , bogus and mostly wild claims.

frosbel:


So you agree that we were promised dreams and visions not out of body witchcraft or near death hallucinating experiences.

Also , Paul is quite clear that no man was permitted to speak of the things he saw. There was no tour of hell and heaven , rather Paul was given a vision of paradise.

When you review the visions seen in the bible ,not one of them lines up with your heretical , bogus and mostly wild claims.

The Bible is awash with trips to heaven. The likes of Enoch and Elijah were translated to heaven. Paul and John were both caught up to heaven and came back to tell us of their experiences. Moses and Elijah appeared and had a conversation with their maker, our Lord Jesus Christ on the Mount of Transfiguration. Read your bible with the Spirit's guidance.

OLAADEGBU:

These revelations and visions are not new, they are in the bible if you are conversant with it. More of these visions and revelations are bound to come according to His promises in these last days.

"And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions. And upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit" (Joel 2:28-29).

And how do you judge the authenticity of these out of body experiences?. Besides, these stories are they not near death experiences?

[quote author=OLAADEGBU]

The Bible is awash with trips to heaven. The likes of Enoch and Elijah were translated to heaven.

Liar !!

Enoch and Elijah never went to heaven , they were translated to a different location.

If you had any respect for the words of Jesus, then listen :

"No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven--the Son of Man." - John 3:13

Your matter becomes worse when we know quite well that no man has ever seen God except Jesus :

"No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known." - John 1:18

To make your position sound more ridiculous , if we take onboard your exposition of the parable , that of Lazarus and Rich man , we can infer that the righteous are in a place called Abraham's bosom and therefore are not in heaven . So tell me , how come Abraham, Moses , David etc , were supposedly in Abraham's bosom before Christ , but Elijah and Enoch were in heaven proper , and had therefore seen and spent time with the Father ?

Boy you have totally missed road.

If you had any respect for the Paul and John were both caught up to heaven and came back to tell us of their experiences.

This was a vision, you should know by now.

Moses and Elijah appeared and had a conversation with their maker, our Lord Jesus Christ on the Mount of Transfiguration. Read your bible with the Spirit's guidance.

vision as well.

"As they were coming down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, "Tell the vision to no one until the Son of Man has risen from the dead." - Matthew 17:9

OLAADEGBU:

Mr. questioner, what are you, a sinner or a saint? Answering this will move this dialogue along.

Good. Now it's gonna get interesting. I am a SAINT.

OLAADEGBU:

For your information, a saint is not a sinner and a sinner is not a saint.

This is good answer. You just said a SAINT is NOT a SINNER and you and I are SAINTS OF GOD. That means we no longer sinners because you just said also, SINNERS CANNOT BE SAINTS. Meaning we are one (SAINTS) at a time and cannot be both (SAINTS AND SINNERS...according to the title of the thread) at the same time.

How then did you and I became SAINTS?

Hehehehe

Goshen, you are a 'wicked' saint.

Goshen360:

Good. Now it's gonna get interesting. I am a SAINT.



This is good answer. You just said a SAINT is NOT a SINNER and you and I are SAINTS OF GOD. That means we no longer sinners because you just said also, SINNERS CANNOT BE SAINTS. Meaning we are one (SAINTS) at a time and cannot be both (SAINTS AND SINNERS...according to the title of the thread) at the same time.

How then did you and I became SAINTS?

Oladegbu won't come back here anymore. You guys have succeeded in chasing him away with questions.

If you ain't talking tithe, OBE, hell you talking nonsense (0ladegbu's perspective)

shdemidemi: Oladegbu won't come back here anymore. You guys have succeeded in chasing him away with questions.

If you ain't talking tithe, OBE, hell you talking nonsense (0ladegbu's perspective)

What is OBE?

Tgirl4real: Hehehehe

Goshen, you are a 'wicked' saint.

I want to (by the grace of God) lead our beloved brother out of some errors...if only he will allow me for once. This is going to be systematic, slowly and then APOSTOLIC.

Tgirl4real:

What is OBE?

Astra travel, witchcraft or Out of Body Experiences

Tgirl4real:

What is OBE?

You need stay in vogue here on this section o. You want make we recruit you here ni? OBE - Out (of) Body Experience.

Goshen360:

I want to (by the grace of God) lead our beloved brother out of some errors...if only he will allow me for once. This is going to be systematic, slowly and then APOSTOLIC.

Lol. If only he can reason a bit and try to apply scriptures in context - I mean no disrespect sir, things would be clearer.

Goshen360:

You need stay in vogue here on this section o. You want make we recruit you here ni? OBE - Out (of) Body Experience.

Lol.

I no do, not with the missles, gbagauns, arrows, choopers, OBEs and the like. I better go back jejeli to my family section.

It's been a refreshing 1 week though. I am begining to know who is who.

I was sick that's why I enuf time to read through threads, starting with your thread on "grave clothe".

See you guys around sha.

frosbel:

Astra travel, witchcraft or Out of Body Experiences

frosbel:


So you agree that we were promised dreams and visions not out of body witchcraft or near death hallucinating experiences.

Also , Paul is quite clear that no man was permitted to speak of the things he saw. There was no tour of hell and heaven , rather Paul was given a vision of paradise.

When you review the visions seen in the bible ,not one of them lines up with your heretical , bogus and mostly wild claims.

I have no time for your fables and mythologies. If you don't believe that Paul and John were caught up to heaven then I can't help you.

superior1:

And how do you judge the authenticity of these out of body experiences?. Besides, these stories are they not near death experiences?

Who said that Paul didn't have a near death experience?

"And there came there certain Jews from Antioch and Iconium, who persuaded the people, and, having stoned Paul, drew him out of the city, supposing he had been dead"

(Acts 14:19).

Paul was stoned and left for dead here until he came to and continued preaching the gospel.

Later in one of his letters to the Corinthians church he told of his near death experience:

"How he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter"

(2 Corinthians 12:4).

John got his description of heaven when he was went to heaven in the spirit. Read Revelation 4:1-4

^^^^^

So Paul left his body and went to heaven because of the supposed and interpolated near death experience ?

But where is this view supported in the context of those verses ?

Also , did John have an NDE or OBE ?

OLAADEGBU:

Who said that Paul didn't have a near death experience?

(Acts 14:19).

Paul was stoned and left for dead here until he came to and continued preaching the gospel.

Later in one of his letters to the Corinthians church he told of his near death experience:

(2 Corinthians 12:4).

John got his description of heaven when he was went to heaven in the spirit. Read Revelation 4:1-4

In the middle of the night faa and you got me laughing out like this, no wonder frosbel calls it witchcraft.

Sir, what you have written up there is a reproach to the church you identify with, good a thing from my previous association with DLBC, I know your statement is alien to what they stand for.

I absolutely don't need those craps to get hook to the cross, this is how people get led to heresy and confusion. I asked for how to authenticate such extra-biblical visions, you can't say.

I will read my bible and my bible alone. Keep chasing silly OBE and continue looking for who has been to hell to tell you fables and unreliable fallacy.

Goshen360:

How then did you and I became SAINTS?

@ Olaadegbu, I'm still waiting for the answer to this question above please so we can continue. Thank you.

frosbel:

Liar !!

Enoch and Elijah never went to heaven , they were translated to a different location.

If you had any respect for the words of Jesus, then listen :

"No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven--the Son of Man." - John 3:13

Your matter becomes worse when we know quite well that no man has ever seen God except Jesus :

"No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known." - John 1:18

To make your position sound more ridiculous , if we take onboard your exposition of the parable , that of Lazarus and Rich man , we can infer that the righteous are in a place called Abraham's bosom and therefore are not in heaven . So tell me , how come Abraham, Moses , David etc , were supposedly in Abraham's bosom before Christ , but Elijah and Enoch were in heaven proper , and had therefore seen and spent time with the Father ?

Boy you have totally missed road.

"And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him"

(Genesis 5:24).

You will have to tear this verse out of your Bible.

"By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God"

(Hebrews 11:5).

Enoch didn't see death. You can see that God had to elaborate on this and didn't leave it up for our speculation.

"And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven"

(2 Kings 2:11).

Elijah was taken up by a chariot of fire into heaven.

Jesus, in John 3:13 made an emphatic claim to deity that you deny. He was the only One who could go up to heaven of His own Power unlike Enoch, Elijah, Paul and John. Jesus refers to Proverbs 30:4 and applies it appropriately to Himself thus claiming to be the only begotten Son of God.

frosbel:

This was a vision, you should know by now.

Vision or no vision, the fact remains that he was caught up to paradise.

frosbel:

vision as well.

"As they were coming down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, "Tell the vision to no one until the Son of Man has risen from the dead." - Matthew 17:9

I didn't say this wasn't a vision but the fact remains that Moses who died appeared together with Elijah who didn't die in a vision on the Mount of transfiguration. I thought you said that there is no consciousness after death, how come Moses was seen in a vision?

^ Why you so much derailing the thread you started yourself. A very interesting thread for that matter. The thread is 'saints and sinners'. Leave all these NDE and OBE talk alone, let's focus on the topic, saints and sinners. Thank you.

Goshen360:

Good. Now it's gonna get interesting. I am a SAINT.



This is good answer. You just said a SAINT is NOT a SINNER and you and I are SAINTS OF GOD. That means we no longer sinners because you just said also, SINNERS CANNOT BE SAINTS. Meaning we are one (SAINTS) at a time and cannot be both (SAINTS AND SINNERS...according to the title of the thread) at the same time.

How then did you and I became SAINTS?

Speak for yourself. What makes you a saint?

superior1:

In the middle of the night faa and you got me laughing out like this, no wonder frosbel calls it witchcraft.

Sir, what you have written up there is a reproach to the church you identify with, good a thing from my previous association with DLBC, I know your statement is alien to what they stand for.

I absolutely don't need those craps to get hook to the cross, this is how people get led to heresy and confusion. I asked for how to authenticate such extra-biblical visions, you can't say.

I will read my bible and my bible alone. Keep chasing silly OBE and continue looking for who has been to hell to tell you fables and unreliable fallacy.

Read your bible and you will discover that heaven and hell are real!

shdemidemi: Oladegbu won't come back here anymore. You guys have succeeded in chasing him away with questions.

If you ain't talking tithe, OBE, hell you talking nonsense (0ladegbu's perspective)

Hell is real. Repent!

Goshen360:

I want to (by the grace of God) lead our beloved brother out of some errors...if only he will allow me for once. This is going to be systematic, slowly and then APOSTOLIC.

Have you repented of your sins before you start to lead someone out of his "errors"?