truthislight:

John 5:28,29 is what revelation is explaining.

Read revelation 20:4

so, all the dead that will be resurrected some will be for judgement

also, why resurect them if they were alife some where?

Afteral according to you the soul is immortal.

So, if they were not alife some were and needed resurrection why will there dying a scorn time as in the second death now mean that they are some were if they were no where in the first death.

The truth is, unlike the first dead that all will come back to life this second dead there is no coming back and to show the difference the bible consistently use fire to show or depict a death that there will be no resurrection back.

So, death means a state of non existance
ecclesiates 9:5,6,10

Sorry, I still don't see the word you meant when you said, "the word should be judgment". And I expected you to go on to tell me why it should be so.

cyrexx: For those who believe the Bible as the innerant Word of God, here are:


SCRIPTURAL SUPPORT FOR TOTAL ANNIHILATION, NO ETERNAL TORTURE—

There are numerous scriptures that seem to clearly indicate that there is no eternal life for the wicked (not even in Hell). Here are quite a few that I found from the PC Study Bible after doing a search for the words "eternal life" in the concordance. These references are in Biblical order, and each is from the New American Standard Bible (Updated Edition) unless otherwise stated.

Matt 19:16—"And someone came to Him and said, 'Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?'"

This man spoke of obtaining eternal life. It wasn't as if he already possessed it. Preachers today would probably say to him "Son, you already have eternal life; it's just a matter of where you will spend it." But Jesus never said that.

Matt 19:29-30—"And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or farms for My name's sake, will receive many times as much, and will inherit eternal life."

They will inherit eternal life. This indicates that not everyone has it already.

Matt 25:46—"These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

This verse admittedly uses the phrase "eternal punishment," but it is juxtaposed against the phrase "eternal life." Death by annihilation in the Lake of Fire could certainly be called "eternal punishment" because it is eternal in its consequences. Death on earth is only temporal because everyone will be raised again at the resurrection. Death in the Lake of Fire, however, is eternal: there is no reversing it and no coming back from it. If Jesus meant for the punishment to last eternally, he probably wouldn't have contrasted it with the phrase "eternal life" which is clearly meant only for believers. If Jesus had intended what most churches believe he did with this verse, he should have said, "Both the righteous and the unrighteous will go away to eternal life, but the unrighteous will spend it being tortured while the righteous spend theirs in paradise."

John 3:16—"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life."

This is the most quoted verse in the Bible and also one of the clearest accounts on the annihilation of the wicked. "...Whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life." John didn't write that "...whoever believes in Him shall not have everlasting life in torment, but rather have everlasting life in Heaven." The way most churches interpret this, they mentally replace the very clear word "perish" with something that means nearly the opposite: "never perish."

John 3:36—"He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 4:14—"...but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life."

John 5:24—"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life."

Once again, the words "eternal life" and "life" are associated strictly with the righteous. The word "death" is reserved for the unrighteous, who will not go to Heaven. It takes a good bit of theological gymnastics to continually reinterpret these divinely inspired Words of God to mean the exact opposite of their natural meanings. Since when does "death" mean "eternal life away from God"? If John intended to say that, he should have used almost any other word instead of "death."

John 6:40—"For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:47—"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life."

John 6:54—"He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:68—"and Simon Peter answered Him, 'Lord, to whom shall we go? You have words of eternal life.'"

John 10:28—"and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand."

Rom 5:21—"so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

Rom 6:23—"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

This is another very popular verse which is quite clear in its teaching. "The wages of sin is death ([color=#990000]not eternal life in torture), but the gift of God is eternal life..."[/color]

Gal 6:8—"For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life."

Once again, "eternal life" is from the Spirit and "corruption" is reaped from the flesh.

Titus 3:7—"so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life."

1 John 3:15—"Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer; and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him."

No murderer has eternal life abiding in him. Most Christians claim that all people, saved and unsaved, have eternal life abiding in them, but this is certainly not what the scriptures teach.

1 John 5:11—"And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son."

Eternal life is only in God's son. The unrighteous do not have the gift of eternal life.

All of the above scriptures were reached in a search for the words "eternal life" in the PC Study Bible. The search actually returned 42 occurrences of the phrase in the NASU version of the Bible. I did not incorporate every single verse because many were essentially repeats of verses I did include (for instance, some of the Gospels record virtually the same teachings of Jesus) and a few others were slightly less clear. However, in the entire Bible, there is not a single verse that records anything to the affect that "everyone has eternal life; it's only a matter of where each will spend it." Yet this is what most of the church today believes.

The same can be said of words like "immortality." This word appears five times in the Bible, and in each one, it is said only of God or of the righteous.

Rom 2:6-7—"[God] will render to each person according to his deeds: to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life..."

1 Cor 15:53—"For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality."

1 Tim 6:15-16—"He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone possesses immortality..."

Contrary, to popular opinion, the Bible never says that all people are born with an immortal soul. It says instead that only God has immortality, and He blesses whom He chooses with the gift of eternal life. The concept of the immortal soul is nowhere found in the Bible. According to Edward Fudge, William Robert West, and others, the belief is of pagan origin (accredited to many ancient teachers, especially Plato), and it worked itself into Christian theology by way of many of our "church forefathers," who knew more of the teachings of Plato than they did of the teachings of Christ and were only partly converted.



I will strongly advise you to visit
http://jeremyandchristine.com/articles/eternal.php
for more on the scriptural teachings on this topic (that is, for bible believers) it even contains an audio mp3 teaching this biblical truth.

cheers, everyone. believers and unbelievers alike.

I expect to see you in the kingdom soon !

Ihedinobi:

That there are two deaths, one greater than the other and the greater one is called the Lake of Fire? That's my simple understanding of that verse in isolation.

error.

"This means"

that is fire means something the second death.

And we know that in the second death there is no resurection.

Fire therefor is use to signify a death without resurrection in the bible.

So, even those that dies befor the end, at the end and will die after the resurrection that will not be resurrected are signified with fire to show that they dont have another oportunity to come back to life.

Eg, the religious pharisees of Jesus day that deliberately rejected Jesus and had him kill are said to be cast into Gehena or can not escape Gehena.

Gehena is a refuse dump outside of Jerusalem and the refuse was constantly burnt with FIRE.

The reference of that fire shows that Jesus meant that they will not be resurrected by him when the rest of the dead will hear his voice and come out.

Also, those that God will personally kill in the end of this system of things, since they will not be resurrected the reference to fire there shows that there dead is without resurrection. 2peter 3:10

same with the second death revelation 20:12-15 = everlasting death = fire.

This is to show the difference between a death that is complete destruction and a death that God is still planing to bring back to life.

(Some translation change the word Gehena that Jesus used to described the religious leaders of his day.

ijawkid: The way u hell fire adherents view God is exactly the way the nigerian legal system can be viewed.....

In nigeria as we know when u steal public funds that run into billions u go scot free....infact u are celebrated and even given the space to steal more.....the penalty is never commensurate to the corrupt action carried out by the politician.....

But when some1 on the street steals bread or one's cell phone,that poor thief is burnt to death........

What do I mean??

If adam,eve and satan the originators of the human ""wahala"" would face the penalty of everlasting death,why shuld we the offsprings of our 1st parents burn continously,for all eternity in a furnace or where ever it is fire burns (I just don't actually know when hell fire was created and also the venue)...........??

Is that justice??

See let me tell y'all.....

It is either one gains everlasting life or dies without d hope of ressurection....

The opposite of everlasting life is total death....

No 2 ways about it

additionally,

can literal fire burn a spirit creature like satan and demons?

Can "death" be burnt in fire?
Is it a person does it exist as an entity? No

Death is an abstract descripton of the condition that a living thing undergoes when it is no longer alife.

But again death and hides will be thrown into the lake of fire. Revelation 20:14

If this fire will burn immeterial things (satan and death) why then will it also be use for material human if it is literal fire?

Those two, satan and death cannot burn in literal fire.
So the fire there is a symbol of permanent removal or everlasting destruction

Meaning that there will be no more death revelation 21:4

@truthislight

hehehehehehehe.... You accuse me of arrogance on other threads for daring to interpret Scriptures and here you are interpreting away and, as always deciding who is in error and who is not. Very little surprise that only those who agree with you are the ones free of error. Just like with nearly everyone else venturing opinions on this thread. Real funny.

@all

I've got a question for those who define everlasting life as perpetual existence and eternal destruction or second death as cessation of existence. It's this

What did Jesus mean by "this is eternal life: [it means] to know (to perceive, recognize, become acquainted with, and understand) You, the only true and real God, and [likewise] to know Him, Jesus [as the] Christ (the Anointed One, the Messiah), Whom You have sent" in John 17:3 AMP?

Ejoor, abeg, biko, s'il vous plait, please, keep your answers simple and unambiguous.

@truthislight

yeah, let me say again. You have not answered my questions about your declarations about Dan 12:2. Being the Bible expert is not proving an easy job today, is it?

Ihedinobi: @truthislight

@all

I've got a question for those who define everlasting life as perpetual existence and eternal destruction or second death as cessation of existence. It's this

What did Jesus mean by "this is eternal life: [it means] to know (to perceive, recognize, become acquainted with, and understand) You, the only true and real God, and [likewise] to know Him, Jesus [as the] Christ (the Anointed One, the Messiah), Whom You have sent" in John 17:3 AMP?

Ejoor, abeg, biko, s'il vous plait, please, keep your answers simple and unambiguous.

And what is eternal life ? Who inherits eternal life.

Do you know that if sinners live forever in hell , that also qualifies as eternal life. In other words God will grant sinners immortality for the purpose of eternal torture. This does not make sense.

Only immortal souls will live forever and yet we know that we are mortal. God alone is immortal. Immortality is a gift he will give to the saved.

"who alone is immortal [/u]and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen." - 1 Timothy 6:16

1 Timothy 1:17 Now to the King eternal, [u]immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Even God himself says we are mortal.

"Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not contend with man forever, for he is mortal; his days will be a hundred and twenty years." - Genesis 6:3


When God grants immortality to Christians who are saved , then they will live forever , not before.

"To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life." - Romans 2:7

"When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory." - 1 Corinthians 15:54

Isaiah 25:8 he will swallow up death forever. The Sovereign LORD will wipe away the tears from all faces; he will remove the disgrace of his people from all the earth. The LORD has spoken.

I hope these verses prove to you that only the immortal will live forever, this does not apply to mankind since we are indeed mortal beings.

Therefore in order to live forever, we first have to eat the tree of life and become immortal. All this just for the purpose of eternal torture

Mate you have to get another bible to prove your point.

Ihedinobi:

Sorry, I still don't see the word you meant when you said, "the word should be judgment". And I expected you to go on to tell me why it should be so.

i mean that the reason why the unrighteions will resurrected at the first place is for judgement. Acts 17:31, acts 10:42 and 2timoth 4:1 =
the living and the death will be judge

so, the reason for the resurrection of the unrighteose is for them to be judge.
And revelation 20 is a chapter that explain the judgement day. And Rev 20:12 shows that very clearly.

This judgement is for unrighteose also cus there are people that have died without hearing about christ and as such no basis to sentence them, they will be given opportunity to decide and call on christ as to be saved and rewarded with eveslasting life if they do.

A day set by God for this judgement is the usual DAY of God = 1000 years Rev 20:1to3. Shows that Satan will be in prison withing this period of judgement and this is = judgement acts 17:31. 2timothy 4:1.

Justice demand that all human that have ever lived and died without hearing the message about the christ be given same opportunity like ours.

Even our great grand parent that had NEVER heard about christ will all come out.

After the 1000years satan will be release again. Rev 20:7,8.

@All,

Please let us not desecrate this topic with vituperation or name-calling.I believe its important we maintain decorum as children of God who really wants to learn the truth. More so, I am sure we might not fully agree on some doctrinal truth perhaps due to traditions or upholding to what we know(or feel) that is right.

@Ihedinobi,this is another verse to consider the word 'eternal fire'
Jude 1:7 “Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire”

More so,these two verses would be of help to us all.
Malachi 4:3 “And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts”.

Ezekiel 28:18-19 “Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more”.

My final take for today,I do not wish to toe to the trappings of traditions that are not in tandem with the truth.
God forbid!The Gospel speaks for itself and it must be harmonized for any man to make out a doctrine out of it.The God I serve is not a wicked God that would derive pleasure for tormenting people and other spirit beings in an unquenchable unending fire.Romans 6:23 says it all about my loving Father-The Almighty God,King of kings,Lord of lords,Master of all masters,God of all gods.....name it...Our God is more than amazing and lovely and not a supposedly 'eternal' tormentor!

No one can claim to know it all from the Bible but I believe if we are humble enough to learn,we can always learn the truth.

Anyway what even counts is the application of the truth but definitely the truth must come first before application.

More so, the Holy Spirit is readily available to help us to understand scriptures!

The truth is the scarcest commodity on earth. Sincerely, I do not believe any present church on earth has the complete truth/knowledge of the word of God.I might be wrong about this my assertion due to my own limitations!

God bless us all!

frosbel:


And what is eternal life ? Who inherits eternal life.

Do you know that if sinners live forever in hell , that also qualifies as eternal life. In other words God will grant sinners immortality for the purpose of eternal torture. This does not make sense.

Only immortal souls will live forever and yet we know that we are mortal. God alone is immortal. Immortality is a gift he will give to the saved.

"who alone is immortal [/u]and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen." - 1 Timothy 6:16

1 Timothy 1:17 Now to the King eternal, [u]immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Even God himself says we are mortal.

"Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not contend with man forever, for he is mortal; his days will be a hundred and twenty years." - Genesis 6:3


When God grants immortality to Christians who are saved , then they will live forever , not before.

"To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life." - Romans 2:7

"When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory." - 1 Corinthians 15:54

Isaiah 25:8 he will swallow up death forever. The Sovereign LORD will wipe away the tears from all faces; he will remove the disgrace of his people from all the earth. The LORD has spoken.

I hope these verses prove to you that only the immortal will live forever, this does not apply to mankind since we are indeed mortal beings.

Therefore in order to live forever, we first have to eat the tree of life and become immortal. All this just for the purpose of eternal torture

Mate you have to get another bible to prove your point.

I know you have a knee-jerk reaction to plunge into teaching when you are asked simple questions, but dial it down a bit and swallow that hunger for confrontation for a moment and answer the question simply. Even your thesis up there did nothing whatever to answer my question, or is it that you consider it not worthy of answering?

I know how much you wanna show off your knowledge and liberation from "heresies". Just answer the question and show us all that it is the whole Bible that you're reading not just those parts that suit your idiosyncracies.

Ihedinobi: @truthislight

hehehehehehehe.... You accuse me of arrogance on other threads for daring to interpret Scriptures and here you are interpreting away and, as always deciding who is in error and who is not. Very little surprise that only those who agree with you are the ones free of error. Just like with nearly everyone else venturing opinions on this thread. Real funny.

@all

I've got a question for those who define everlasting life as perpetual existence and eternal destruction or second death as cessation of existence. It's this

What did Jesus mean by "this is eternal life: [it means] to know (to perceive, recognize, become acquainted with, and understand) You, the only true and real God, and [likewise] to know Him, Jesus [as the] Christ (the Anointed One, the Messiah), Whom You have sent" in John 17:3 AMP?

Ejoor, abeg, biko, s'il vous plait, please, keep your answers simple and unambiguous.

John 17:3 and 2timothy 2:3,4 are saying the same things.

That taking in the knowledge of God and christ qualifies one for eternal life.

True Knowledge of God's word that set men free like the one Cyrexx and Frosbel/Ijawkid are giving hear that is consistent with God's word from GENESIS to revelation qualifies one for eternal life.

Peace

truthislight:

i mean that the reason why the unrighteions will resurrected at the first place is for judgement. Acts 17:31, acts 10:42 and 2timoth 4:1 =
the living and the death will be judge

so, the reason for the resurrection of the unrighteose is for them to be judge.
And revelation 20 is a chapter that explain the judgement day. And Rev 20:12 shows that very clearly.

This judgement is for unrighteose also cus there are people that have died without hearing about christ and as such no basis to sentence them, they will be given opportunity to decide and call on christ as to be saved and rewarded with eveslasting life if they do.

A day set by God for this judgement is the usual DAY of God = 1000 years Rev 20:1to3. Shows that Satan will be in prison withing this period of judgement and this is = judgement acts 17:31. 2timothy 4:1.

Justice demand that all human that have ever lived and died without hearing the message about the christ be given same opportunity like ours.

Even our great grand parent that had NEVER heard about christ will all come out.

After the 1000years satan will be release again. Rev 20:7,8.

I'm not sure what you're saying. Are you retracting your statement that some parts or part of the verse I presented needs changing? Please be clear.

truthislight:

John 17:3 and 2timothy 2:3,4 are saying the same things.

That taking in the knowledge of God and christ qualifies one for eternal life.

True Knowledge of God's word that set men free like the one Cyrexx and Frosbel/Ijawkid are giving hear that is consistent with God's word from GENESIS to revelation qualifies one for eternal life.

Peace

I'll answer you in the morning.

Ihedinobi: @truthislight

yeah, let me say again. You have not answered my questions about your declarations about Dan 12:2. Being the Bible expert is not proving an easy job today, is it?

Daniel 12:2 = John 5:28,29 and base on this 2timothy 4:1 leading to this = Rev20:15 and Rev21:8

the dead that come back to life on refusing to make use of the opportunity presented them will undergo everlasting rejection by God. No coming back to life = second death = lake of fire.

Ihedinobi:

I know you have a knee-jerk reaction to plunge into teaching when you are asked simple questions, but dial it down a bit and swallow that hunger for confrontation for a moment and answer the question simply. Even your thesis up there did nothing whatever to answer my question, or is it that you consider it not worthy of answering?

I know how much you wanna show off your knowledge and liberation from "heresies". Just answer the question and show us all that it is the whole Bible that you're reading not just those parts that suit your idiosyncracies.

I am done debating with you. You seem to have a problem with people quoting scripture.

First of all you accuse me of showing off when all I am doing is quoting scripture to make a valid point .

You have not refuted one evidence in support of the fact that hell is not an eternal concept.

Your comments stink of pride. Therefore I am no longer willing to engage you in any further discussions .

As for others we continue to discuss with grace and humility .

truthislight:

Daniel 12:2 = John 5:28,29 and base on this 2timothy 4:1 leading to this = Rev20:15 and Rev21:8

the dead that come back to life on refusing to make use of the opportunity presented them will undergo everlasting rejection by God. No coming back to life = second death = lake of fire.

So simple and yet so complex for some of us .

When people wrest scripture out of context to support a fallacy , you know that what they need is divine revelation.

Thanks for your contributions .

nedostic: @All,

Please let us not desecrate this topic with vituperation or name-calling.I believe its important we maintain decorum as children of God who really wants to learn the truth. More so, I am sure we might not fully agree on some doctrinal truth perhaps due to traditions or upholding to what we know(or feel) that is right.

@Ihedinobi,this is another verse to consider the word 'eternal fire'
Jude 1:7 “Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire”

More so,these two verses would be of help to us all.
Malachi 4:3 “And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts”.

Ezekiel 28:18-19 “Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more”.

My final take for today,I do not wish to toe to the trappings of traditions that are not in tandem with the truth.
God forbid!The Gospel speaks for itself and it must be harmonized for any man to make out a doctrine out of it.The God I serve is not a wicked God that would derive pleasure for tormenting people and other spirit beings in an unquenchable unending fire.Romans 6:23 says it all about my loving Father-The Almighty God,King of kings,Lord of lords,Master of all masters,God of all gods.....name it...Our God is more than amazing and lovely and not a supposedly 'eternal' tormentor!

No one can claim to know it all from the Bible but I believe if we are humble enough to learn,we can always learn the truth.

Anyway what even counts is the application of the truth but definitely the truth must come first before application.

More so, the Holy Spirit is readily available to help us to understand scriptures!

The truth is the scarcest commodity on earth. Sincerely, I do not believe any present church on earth has the complete truth/knowledge of the word of God.I might be wrong about this my assertion due to my own limitations!

God bless us all!

You hit the nail on the head with regards to tradition . We cannot and should not blame our brethren when they are shocked by a view contrary to what is preached in many of our apostate churches.

Many of these doctrines are layers deep in deception , with time God will remove the scales from their eyes , including ours with regard to other traditions and man made doctrines .

Ihedinobi:

I'm not sure what you're saying. Are you retracting your statement that some parts or part of the verse I presented needs changing? Please be clear.

my friend, my bible use judgement for the unrighteose that will be resurrected at John 5:29

while some bible use damnation in that same John 5:29.

I only said that to see if you view it from the angle that judgement comes befor damning.

Yes they will be damned after they have been judged.

Not taking note of this may cause one not to see the big picture and conclude that they are coming out to straight damnation. No

Roman 6:23 shows that the dead that are coming out have already payed for the wages of Adamic sin = death

Roman 6:7 shows that those that qualifies to be resurrected are freed from the sin they commited befor they died, since they had died.

It is the same with baptism.

Going into the water on coming out one former sin will no longer be counted against him.

So, those that had died on being resurrected is on a clean slate and will be judge base on what they will do withing the 1000yrs judgement day aim at preparing people for perfection befor christ will hand over all things back to his father 1corinthians 15:24

peace

nedostic:
The truth remains that everlasting hell fire does not mean forever as it is depicted in english. Church traditions have not helped us either not to forget some (mis)translations in the Bible.One of my favorite sites is www.bible.cc,this site gives you varieties of translations with commentaries as well.

If anyone doubts the meaning of everlasting,please check out the meaing of 'AIONS' in greek.

^
Please what is the meaning of everlasting in this verse?

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

frosbel:

So simple and yet so complex for some of us .

When people wrest scripture out of context to support a fallacy , you know that what they need is divine revelation.

Thanks for your contributions .

am happy for you and nodostic.
Peace.

@Alaetha,

I hope I got your username right! Kindly pardon me if I got it wrong.Back to your question before I doze off.

The context of the usage of 'everlasting' or 'eternal' as regards hellfire has to do with an age or a period in time.

It does not necessarily connote forever or permanency or nonfading. It depends wholly on the context of usage.

In Greek,the adjectival form of everlasting is 'aionion' or 'aionios'.

The classical example of this biblical treatise can be drawn from what befell Sodom and Gomorrah.

Please if you are doubt of what I have stated,kindly do a 'google' search on everlasting or eternal in Greek.

I have got to marry my bed for now.My eyes are heavy.Thanks.Stay blessed.

^
You still haven't answered my quite specific question:

aletheia:
Please what is the meaning of everlasting in this verse?

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

aletheia:
Please what is the meaning of everlasting in this verse?
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Everlasting means lasting forever .

Everlasting life, life lasting forever as distinct from everlasting punishment which means punishment lasting forever.

In context, everlasting life has to do with eternal life or immortality while everlasting punishment has to do with death or mortality.

One lives, the other dies. In both cases the duration is everlasting.

Now I have a question for you.

In the same verse you quoted , it mentioned :

"that whosoever believeth in him should not perish"

What does Perish mean ?

Two simple questions and a lot of bla bla bla yade yade yaketty yak in answer.

Truthislight said, and I quote, "the word should be judgment". Considering that it was a whole verse consisting of several words, I asked which word he meant. In answer, I've gotten expositions of all sorts and I still don't know if he's showing me the word that should be changed to judgment or if he's saying that he was wrong and there was no word in need of change in that verse.

Frosbel keeps leaping about throwing accusations of pride at me for refusing to let him escape the question I asked. You are not obliged to answer me, sir, you can always say, "I'm not answerable to you" if it's easier for you. But to insist on debating with me is folly. I didn't come to debate with you. As far as I am concerned, you and your likes have no respect for the Scriptures, so debating with you would demean them. If you did, you would take cognizance of those ones that appear to contradict themselves and fall on your face before the Lord for help in understanding. What you are insisting on doing is force me to attack Scripture with Scripture. I will not do so. You, in your great wisdom and understanding and knowledge of the Scriptures, practically declared that the Tanakh does not teach the punishment of an everlasting hell fire. I showed you a verse in Daniel and you're trying to force me into arguments with you over it. That is foolishness. I ask you what John 17:3 mean and you hurl Scriptures at me. What for? For me to say that they are wrong? I will not do so. You made yourself a teacher, now you must do a teacher's job. Reconcile your interpretation of everlasting life as unceasing existence with that part of Jesus's prayer and I'll know that you are learning from the Author of the Scriptures.

Truthislight, I will now tell you without mincing words that you are a wicked, misleading teacher. That is why I have continued to refuse to answer you on many threads. The spirit you displayed on the first thread on which I met you, Mr Anony's Freewill vs Predestination thread at www.nairaland.com/996184/grace-destiny-vs-freewill-brethren , indicated a red light. You couldn't keep away from confronting a person of different views than you. And it wasn't even me then. What constitutes you the Authority on Scriptures? Why are you the one who's right and everyone else wrong except those that agree with you? You care not one bit for the things that are Christ's and your judgment will be swift for doing your very best to tear His House apart.

@all

I have brethren and for their sake, I would be mild and not be so harsh, but I love them and many of those weak ones are forever troubled by these proud teachers that would rewrite the Bible given half a chance. I may be accused of arrogance, of pride or whatever anyone will. I used to bother when I called my accusers brethren. But I have tested them to know if they indeed have the Spirit of Christ. The answer is that they do not know Him. One Who knows the Spirit of Christ would not turn the Scriptures against themselves. He would not be incensed when his views are tested. He would not call other interpretations man-made while his are Bible-made. He does not decide that what constitutes a person saved is a list of doctrines to which the person adheres to rather than the one fact that the person has the Spirit of Christ. He would not persist in attacking the Lord's House even when he has been warned severally not to do so. I will not labor under guilt for accusations such make against me. Had others who know the Lord and have His Spirit warned me of arrogance, I would have taken things very seriously and prayed the Lord for mercy. But I have come to know that the accusations of the Accuser of the Brethren are in order to weaken our testimony and make our witness unsure so I have learned to reject the burden of them.

If any of such persons as I have described will dare to accuse me, they will have to show evidence of their accusation before I will take them seriously.

With respect to the matter at hand, I have a great deal to say. Every bit of Scripture from the Tanakh and the New Testament that has been brought to this thread is vital and utterly relevant. But I am unwilling to say everything that I have to say, at least right now. Though I wouldn't be surprised if I proceeded to type a large discourse on the matter in this very post.

The following are the matters that bear upon the subject, well, at least some of the major ones I can see immediately.

¤ Eternity vs Time

¤ The Justice of a God Whose Name is Love

¤ Eternal Life vs Unceasing Existence

¤ The Second Death vs Cessation of Existence.


I think that, to shut the mouths of those who would hold my comments in derision because I do not quote Scriptures, I will make my explanation incontrovertible. I will make it impossible of question unless its questioners will question the Bible's Authority as well. Ordinarily I would have written my normal way, to give people a chance to disbelieve and question what they will but because of the foolishness that has abounded on this thread, I will make the matter closed with my explanation. But I will do so in other posts. Not this current one.

Ihedinobi:
Frosbel keeps leaping about throwing accusations of pride at me for refusing to let him escape the question I asked. You are not obliged to answer me, sir, you can always say, "I'm not answerable to you" if it's easier for you. But to insist on debating with me is folly. I didn't come to debate with you. As far as I am concerned, you and your likes have no respect for the Scriptures, so debating with you would demean them. If you did, you would take cognizance of those ones that appear to contradict themselves and fall on your face before the Lord for help in understanding. What you are insisting on doing is force me to attack Scripture with Scripture. I will not do so. You, in your great wisdom and understanding and knowledge of the Scriptures, practically declared that the Tanakh does not teach the punishment of an everlasting hell fire. I showed you a verse in Daniel and you're trying to force me into arguments with you over it. That is foolishness. I ask you what John 17:3 mean and you hurl Scriptures at me. What for? For me to say that they are wrong? I will not do so. You made yourself a teacher, now you must do a teacher's job. Reconcile your interpretation of everlasting life as unceasing existence with that part of Jesus's prayer and I'll know that you are learning from the Author of the Scriptures.
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You seem to attack anything that moves against your points and then cry victim when you are corrected.

It is people like you than turn the simplicity of scripture into volumes of theological nonsense.

The gospel is simple, the scriptures can be understood by even a babe. No need for 'isms' and confusion in the name of supposed intellectual exposition.

In another article a fellow brother warned you about reasoning and making your point without scripture, that alone is a warning flag.

Anyway no hard feelings , carry on and so will I

Not one of us is infallible by the way.

i dont think this should be an issue. what should be an issue is d kind of life we live - is it pleasing God? if u find out everlasting torment isnt gona be torment lasting forever, what will it add to ur life?

@frosbel, ijawkid, truthislight and nedostic: you have all done a wonderful job in exposing the lie of eternal life in hellfire as something not supported by the bible and more importantly, that it contradicts God's main attributes among which are: love, wisdom, mercy and justice.
If God is love, can he subject people to eternal torture without hope of redemption?
If he is merciful, can he listen to the agonising cries of people for all eternity and not be moved to show mercy?
If he is just, then where is the justice of subjecting someone to excruciating torture for eternity as punishment for sins commited in a finite liftime?
If he is wise, where is the wisdom in giving life to people without precondition only to torment them in hellfire for failing to abide by his rules?
@Ihedinobi: in a different thread, you tried to justify the trinity by using God's nature of love. I disagreed with you then, because i thought you failed to make your case, but i also resented your snide, know it all, contemptuous attitude which i felt was very unbecoming of a christian and unfavorable to a healthy debate.
However, if you truly understand what love is, now is the time to use it as a guiding light to examine the hellfire doctrine and determine for yourself if the bible teaches it and if Gods love permits such a wicked place to exist.

In Matthew 25:31-46, Jesus spoke of the Judgment of the world. In this discourse, He did not even employ parables. He spoke very plainly. It goes thus in the King James Version:

31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: ³²and before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: ³³and he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. ³⁴Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: ³⁵for I was ahungered, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: ³⁶naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. ³⁷Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee ahungered, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? ³⁸When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? ³⁹Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? ⁴⁰And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. ⁴¹Then shall he say unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: ⁴²for I was ahungered, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: ⁴³I was a stranger and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. ⁴⁴Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee ahungered, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? ⁴⁵Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. ⁴⁶And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

See also Isaiah 66, especially verses 22 through 24. The whole chapter speaks of the same Judgment. Consider also Isaiah 14, especially verses 9 to 11. Compare too Revelation 14:9-11, 20:10, 22:15.

The real question under study is

Is it true that the second death involves eternal existence in torment?

A lot of Scriptures like the ones I have indicated speak of a punishment for sin. They attribute eternity to that punishment. They speak of it as continuing forever. But, as the Scriptures are known to do, they appear to contradict themselves by including words that indicate termination. Such words include "perish", "death" and "destruction". It is not wise to pit Scriptures against themselves. True humility is to stand before the Lord and express confusion when contradiction is apparent to the learner. There is no other way to learn the meanings of the Lord's Book.

A sign of pride is to say that you accept the apparent meaning of certain passages and then try to bend other passages whose apparent meanings are contradictory to fit the meaning you accept. When one fails of doing so, one begins to question the validity of those passages with annoying meanings. At worst, one discounts them as part of the Bible. It is a degenerative process. And since it happens in small steps, it is easy to overlook for people who go by the opinion that "we" (by which they mean Christians) "are imperfect and can misunderstand the Bible" as this opinion allows us to accommodate error in interpretation of the Scriptures. This is a terrible thing because understanding the Scriptures for the Christian is far more vital than understanding health and medical sciences for the healthcare-giver. One slight misunderstanding by a surgeon or nurse in an emergency room can cost the patient his life.

It is therefore terribly important that the Christian learn to acknowledge apparent contradictions in the Scriptures so that they can face the Lord to be taught concerning them. But how does He teach? No, my brothers, not in "revelations" that cannot be explained. That which is inexplicable, at least to a reasonable degree, is a terrible enemy of the Christian. What he cannot understand but which holds vital relationship to his life and witness is an easy stranglehold for Satan upon him. The Christian must understand or else he is weak to his enemy, and ineffective for his Father. So, the Lord teaches by understandable and intelligent means.

His tools are the everyday life of the believer, the very doings and beings of his life.........

Note that "everlasting fire" (Matt 25:41) and "eternal fire" (Jude 7) are from the same original words. Of course, Sodom and Gomorrah are not still burning yet they "are set forth for an example" of the results of a sinful course.

"And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;" (2Pet 2:6)

The wicked will be burned up not burning forever in an eternal fire.

"And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts." (Mal 4:3)

"But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away." (Psa 37:20)

The punishment is everlasting destruction:

"Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power" (2 Thess 1:9)

It is the destruction, not the process that is forever.

Matthew 10:28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

KILL THE SOUL How can this be? How can the soul die? I thought they said the wicked lived forever in the flames of hell? I thought their souls would spin and float in the fires as ambers above a campfire forever Yet the Bible AGAIN proclaims that the WAGES OF SIN IS DEATH! The body is killed and the soul is KILLED. "fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." Destroy body and soul? KILL the soul? Is this ETERNAL LIFE IN HELL? No it is eternal DEATH! (((By the way... The definition of HELL = GRAVE!...DESTRUCTION...ETC)))

If hell is a place where people reside in eternal good health, "except of course the flames that burn them" then how is it possible for us to WALK ON THEIR ASHES AFTER THEY ARE BURNED UP? Read what is recorded in Malachi about this simple fact that will occur on the last day.

Malachi 4:1,3
For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do [this], saith the LORD of hosts.

And if Satan is running Hell and in control of the eternal torments of all those that reside in Hell, then why would the Word of God tell us in the following passage that Satan will burn up RIGHT BEFORE OUR EYES?

Besides it clearly says that Satan will be no more , right ? What does will be no more mean ? Live forever somewhere in the universe.

Ezekiel 28:17-19, "Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.All the nations who knew you are appalled at you; you have come to a[b] horrible end and will be no more[/b].'""

What day is this? When will this occur? -

Source - Brethren

for the adherents of eternal torment :

1. Perish does not mean Perish

2. Destruction does not means destruction

3. Ashes does not means Ashes

4. Death does not mean Death

5. Consume does not mean Consume

5. Stubble does not mean Stubble


For example a catholic brother mentioned that when Adam sinned he died, but it was not literal

I then replied by saying that sometimes if not manytimes, there is a gap between the judgement of God and when the actual sentence is carried out.

Adam's sentence was carried out 930 years later.

"Altogether, Adam lived 930 years, and then he died." - Genesis 5:5

Let me butress my point further. The sentence of sin is death but sometimes God delays this judgement due to his mercy. Because of this , men think it is okay to carry on with their evil. However their sentence will be carried out sometime in the future and it will be death a final event.

"Because the sentence against an evil deed is not executed speedily, the heart of the children of man is fully set to do evil." - Ecclesiastes 8:11

Bewilderingly worrying if you ask me.

"I am He that lives, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death" (Rev. 1:18) The Evidence Bible.

There are three words translated "hell" in Scripture:

Gehenna (Greek): The place of punishment (Matthew 5:22,29; 10:28; and James 3:6)

Hades (Greek): The abode of the dead (Matthew 11:23; 16:18, Luke 16:23; Acts 2:27)

Sheol (Hebrew): The grave (Psalm 9:17; 16:10)

There are those who accept that hell is a place of punishment, but believe that the punishment is to be annihilated—to cease conscious existence. They can’t conceive that the punishment of the wicked will be conscious and eternal. If they are correct, then a man like Adolph Hitler, who was responsible for the deaths of millions, is being "punished" merely with eternal sleep. His fate is simply to return to the non-existent state he was in before he was born, where he doesn’t even know that he is being punished.

However, Scripture paints a different story. The rich man who found himself in hell (Luke 16:19–31) was conscious. He was able to feel pain, to thirst, and to experience remorse. He wasn’t asleep in the grave; he was in a place of "torment." If hell is a place of knowing nothing or a reference to the grave into which we go at death, Jesus' statements about hell make no sense. He said that if your hand, foot, or eye causes you to sin, it would be better to remove it than to "go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: where their worm dies not, and the fire is not quenched" (Mark 9:43–48 ).

The Bible refers to the fate of the unsaved with such fearful words as the following:

"Shame and everlasting contempt" (Daniel 12:2)

"Everlasting punishment" (Mathew 25:46)

"Weeping and gnashing of teeth" (Matthew 24:51)

"Fire unquenchable" (Luke 3:17)

"Indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish" (Romans 2:8,9)

"Everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord" (2 Thessalonians 1:9)

"Eternal fire...the blackness of darkness for ever" (Jude 7,13)

Revelation 14:10,11 tells us the final, eternal destiny of the sinner: "He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone...the smoke of their torment ascended up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day or night."