When a friend or loved one dies, we grieve. If that person was a faithful Christian, we find comfort in the promise of the gospel: resurrection and eternal life. If, on the other hand, the deceased did not know the Lord Jesus Christ in trusting obedience, we have more cause for sorrow and concern about his eternal fate.

An almost indescribable heaviness must be in the minds and hearts of those who believe that their loved ones who didn’t know the Lord are suffering the torments of eternal hellfire.

Is there any comfort for the surviving spouse, parent, child, or friend who is taught that the one whom they held dear in life already endures the misery and pain of the infernal regions, and that without end?

If the human heart is repulsed by such a gloomy and cruel thought, how much more removed must it be from the mind of a gracious and loving God.

In spite of the utter incongruity of it, many Christians believe that a person who dies without Jesus Christ goes to hell at the moment of death to suffer eternally in the fire prepared for the Devil and his angels. This drastic doctrine may offer incentive for a few sinners to seek the Lord, but it has probably turned more people away from God and our Lord Jesus Christ than it has attracted.

The real issue about this doctrine is not how it impacts those who hear it, but whether it accurately reflects Holy Scripture. In this tract we will examine verses often used to support the doctrine of an everlasting hell, hopefully showing that they fail to prove it. When someone dies without Christ, there may be some consolation in knowing that his punishment, according to Scripture, lasts only a short time and then ends in eternal nothingness. Bible verses that support this thought will be listed below.

We offer for your consideration three biblical reasons why the fate of sinners will not involve endless agony in a burning hell.

1. The doctrine of eternal torment is incompatible with the overwhelming testimony of Scripture that God is love!

The few Bible texts that suggest the doctrine of eternal torment may be understood in ways that do not oppose the idea of a loving God.

Many Bible texts picture the fate of the wicked and unbelieving as having its end in total destruction and eternal death.


A Loving God

The dark doctrine of eternal torment stands in stark contrast to the fuller and brighter portrait of God painted in the Bible. Let us gaze with gratitude at the One that Scripture repeatedly describes in the noblest of terms:

But you, O Lord, are a God full of compassion, and gracious, longsuffering and abundant in mercy and truth (Psalm 86:15; see also Exodus 34:6, 7);

The Lord is very compassionate and merciful (James 5:11);
God is love (1 John 4:8, 16); and

“His mercy endures forever” (Psalm 136; all twenty-six verses of this psalm end with the same joyous declaration that the mercy of God, not His anger, never ends!)

Many more plain statements of Scripture picture God as merciful, loving, kind, good, gentle, and just. These, in fact, are among His primary attributes. God loves all His creatures, and His holiness insures that He will do what is equitable and right by them, even in the exercise of His wrath by punishment.

God’s nature of love, mercy, and justice does not nullify His promise of punishment for sin. “Though they join forces, the wicked will not go unpunished” (Proverbs 11:21). Romans 6:23 says, “The wages of sin is death.” The final judgment of sinners will result in their death and destruction. Indeed, it may be seen as an expression of love that He will give the wicked the freedom from God they have always wanted. He will not forever allow the evildoer to continue wreaking havoc among His redeemed creatures or in His restored creation.

The doctrine of eternal torment assigns to God attitudes and actions that can never truly be described as loving, merciful, or just. It says that our gracious, long-suffering God has planned the horrific, anguished suffering of human beings for ages without end.

To plan the perpetual suffering of others is not love. To determine endless suffering when it achieves no redemptive purpose is not mercy. To condemn any person to infinite punishment for finite sins is not justice.

Considering the big picture of God in Scripture, it is illogical and impossible to endorse the idea of eternal torment for anyone. Beyond this, it is unnecessary to do so from any single Bible text. Those passages often quoted to support the teaching of an eternal hell may easily be understood in a different sense.



Better Explanations

A few Bible verses are often given by proponents of eternal torment to support their convictions. But is the meaning suggested for these verses the proper one? The alternate interpretations offered here harmonize with God’s essential character of mercy and justice without violating the context or the essence of these passages.

• The first three Gospels speak of everlasting fire and punishment, of a fire that is not quenched:

He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire (Matthew 3:12; Luke 3:17)

Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire . . . these will go away into everlasting punishment (Matthew 25:41, 46).

A quick reading of these texts may seem to support the traditional view of hell as a place of eternal torment, but please note: The fire that will destroy the wicked may be described as “everlasting” and “unquenchable” simply because it cannot be extinguished. That is, it will not cease to burn until its work of death and destruction is complete.

An unquenchable fire may burn itself out. Jeremiah 17:27 foretells an unquenchable fire that would burn in the gates of Jerusalem during his day. It burned only a short while, until its work was done. In the same sense, the now non-existent fires of Sodom and Gomorrah are described as “eternal fires” in Jude 7.

The everlastingness of the punishment accurately describes the fire’s effect, not its duration. The final punishment for sin is death from which there is no return. Thus, the punishment is everlasting, but the punishing is not. “‘And the day which is coming shall burn them up,’ says the Lord of hosts, . . . ‘That will leave them neither root nor branch. . . . You shall trample the wicked, for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet’” (Malachi 4:1, 3).

None of these verses provides compelling evidence that sinners will be tormented for eternity.

• In Mark 9:43-48 Jesus refers to a fire that is not quenched. This passage differs from the ones above in that the word hell is also used. For example, “It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched — where ‘Their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.’” This is repeated twice more in the same text. How are we to understand such a vivid warning and strange expression?

The Bible offers no support for the idea that the “worm” of this text refers to human consciousness or the human soul. Further, the Greek word for hell in this passage, and others in the New Testament, is gehenna. It refers directly to the Jerusalem city dump in Bible times, a place where the ever-smoldering flames and the ever-present worms eventually destroyed or consumed everything cast into it.

Jesus’ remarks here are taken from Isaiah 66:24: “They shall go forth and look upon the corpses of the men who have transgressed against Me. For their worm does not die, and their fire is not quenched. They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.” The bodies of the condemned were cast into the city dump where they were completely destroyed by fire, decomposition, and worms.

In summary, Jesus uses Old Testament imagery to warn those who persist in sin, and He adds the analogy of gehenna — the city garbage pit where nothing lives but fire and worms — to describe the final destruction of the wicked.

• Another text often cited to support an everlasting, burning hell is the parable of the rich man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31). Taken literally, the story would teach that

Abraham’s bosom is the home of the righteous (v. 22)

The wicked dead suffer burning torment (vv. 23, 24)

Souls in torment can see the righteous in their eternal dwelling (v. 23)

Communication occurs between Abraham and those in the burning fire (vv. 24-31)
Considering the symbolic nature of at least three of these elements, this parable was obviously not intended to be read literally. What then is its meaning?

In context, Jesus tells the story because the Pharisees ridiculed Him and His teaching that man cannot serve both God and money (vv. 13, 14). Jesus’ judgment of their attitude is “You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts” (v. 15). He then relates the parable to illustrate their hypocrisy and the reality of the reversal of fortune that will someday come between those who trust in riches and those who trust only in God.

Jesus’ ministry constantly fulfilled “Moses and the prophets,” yet the Pharisees jeopardized their future by ignoring His words and still rejected Him after His death and resurrection. The folly of their refusal is one important lesson of the parable, not a way of describing hell and heaven within sight of each other, with the lost and the redeemed conversing.

• The book of Revelation contains language some use to press the idea of never-ending suffering for the wicked. Please note who will experience what in these verses.

One passage says of anyone who worships the beast “He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image . . .” (14:10b, 11). Another passage says of the Devil, the beast, and the false prophet “They will be tormented day and night forever and ever” (20:10b).

The Bible’s last book is filled with imagery and symbolism, making it a minefield for over-zealous but ill-informed students who insist on literal meanings. For example, the verse fragments just quoted use the words fire, brimstone, Lamb, smoke, and beast — all of which may have been intended symbolically, not literally.

Further, these verses contain a clear echo of Isaiah 34:9, 10: “Its [Edom’s] streams shall be turned into pitch, and its dust into brimstone; its land shall become burning pitch! It will not be quenched night or day; its smoke shall ascend forever.” This passage refers to an event that occurred hundreds of years before Christ and had long since disappeared. Both Isaiah 34 and its counterpart in Revelation contain poetic language to emphasize the totality and irreversibility of the degradation sinners will suffer, not its eternal duration.

Notice how these punishments are described as producing death: “But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death” (Revelation 21:8 ).

But what about Satan? Will he not suffer throughout eternity in hell? We don’t think so. Bible students are aware that “forever and ever” in some texts means merely “as long as the thing shall last.” For example, Exodus 21:5, 6 and Jonah 2:5, 6 refer to forever as either a lifetime or no more than three days and nights. Even the phrase “day and night forever and ever” is not a literal description of eternity (which will have no night) but a poetic way of saying that Satan will never be restored from his banishment and destruction.

What Jesus accomplished by sharing in our humanity was so “that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil” (Hebrews 2:14b).

Given the less-hideous explanations available for each of the texts above, we wonder why those who know of God’s infinite and unfathomable love continue to defend the teaching of eternal torment.



More Conclusive Texts

The larger share of Bible texts that address the fate of the wicked speak with a note of finality about the punishment ahead. Unrepentant sinners will come to their appointed end: death, destruction, and annihilation.

Notice the words used in the following texts dealing with God’s final judgment:

Hebrews 10:27: Fiery indignation will devour the adversaries.

Philippians 3:19: Their end is destruction.

John 3:16: “Whoever believes in Him should not perish,” implying that unbelievers will perish.

Ezekiel 18:4: The soul who sins shall die.

Malachi 4:1-3: The wicked shall be burned up, leaving neither root nor branch — only ashes under foot.

Psalm 1:4: The wicked are blown away like chaff.

Proverbs 10:25: The wicked are no more.

Psalm 37:22, 28, 34, 38: The wicked shall be cut off.

Psalm 37:20: “The wicked shall perish . . . into smoke they shall vanish away.”

Psalm 37:36: The wicked cannot be found.

Job 11:20: The wicked “shall not escape, and their hope — loss of life!”

Romans 6:23: “The wages of sin is death.”

Now consider the words of Jesus in Matthew 10:28b: “Fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell [or Gehenna].” Traditional religious teaching says that every human has an immortal soul that can never be destroyed. Christ says, however, that God is able to destroy the soul also, after which the person will be as if he had never been (see Obadiah 16b).

Combining these words of Jesus with the foregoing passages, we conclude that God not only is able to destroy but also will destroy both the soul and body of the wicked. Now we have a clearer picture of what lies ahead for unbelieving sinners: separation, desolation, destruction, death, annihilation, nonexistence. They perish!

Seldom does Scripture refer to the instrument that God will use to destroy the wicked as hell. This word in English translations usually refers either to the grave (the place of the dead) or to Gehenna (the Jerusalem garbage pit where refuse was burned by fire or eaten by worms).

Instead of hell, God’s plan for the destruction of sinners at the final judgment is called lake of fire (Revelation 19:20; 20:10, 14, 15; 21:8 ). This is God’s “strange” work — strange compared to His proper work of salvation — and He will “cut it short in righteousness” (compare Isaiah 28:21, 22 with Romans 9:28 ).

It is a mistake to establish a dark doctrine like eternal torment from the doubtful interpretation of a few verses. Rather, we should let the clear verses regarding the fate of sinners speak for themselves. We need not impugn God’s character by teaching ghastly intentions for the fate of sinners when God has made His merciful and righteous judgment so plain.

Still, that merciful and righteous judgment will not be pleasant, and it will be avoided only by following God’s plan of salvation. A major aspect regarding the punishment of the wicked and unbelievers is that they will miss out on eternal fellowship with God, Christ, loved ones, and the saints of God. Their remembrance will fade away, even as their lives. Eternal life and an abode in God’s eternal kingdom will be awarded only to the faithful who trust, confess, and follow Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.



Unbiblical Assumption

The doctrine of eternal punishment is based on the assumption that humans have an immortal soul. However, such a theory has no biblical basis. Immortality itself is a trait possessed only by God, according to 1 Timothy 6:15b, 16). The only human immortality and eternal life known in Scripture come as the gift of God through the gospel of Christ! “[God’s purpose] has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has . . . brought life and immortality to light through the gospel” (2 Timothy 1:10; see also Romans 6:23).



Positive vs. Negative Motivation

When considering eternal “hellfire and brimstone” to induce sinners to repent and trust Jesus as Savior and Lord, we benefit by evaluating the likely effect of such tactics. The best persuasion to trust and obey the Lord does not focus on a threat of punishment, especially a highly dubious one. The most effective motivation for faith and repentance springs from God’s love, not His wrath: “We love Him because He first loved us” (1 John 4:19).

We can’t imagine that a benevolent God would use the warning of eternal torment to coerce His creatures, those to whom He had given the right to choose life or death. Luke 14:26-31 teaches us to “count the cost” of giving up life’s sinful pleasures to gain the pleasures of God’s kingdom. Logically, we should count the cost of not accepting God’s salvation. However, it is not right to overstate that cost by spinning horror stories of eternal torment.

Positive, productive motivation includes the desire to know God and be known by Him, the opportunity for loving relationships, the possibility of reward, good examples, and earnest encouragement. Under these influences, we do things because we want to, not because we feel coerced. God showers us with these positive motivations through His Word, His Spirit, and the loving witness of His people, thus changing our desire to something better than it was by nature.

Negative motivation, on the other hand, is heavy with fear, guilt, and threat. This may be effective for short periods, but it commonly has little lasting effect.

Is there room for a holy fear of God in our human experience? Of course there is. Such is needed today more than ever. We should be taught early in life to develop a healthy respect for the judgment seat of God, for “‘The Lord will judge His people.’ It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God” (Hebrews 10:30, 31). And “Our God is a consuming fire” (12:29).

However, it is neither biblical nor rational that the doubtful threat of eternal torment should be the strongest motivation to be saved. Rather, it is the loving appeal of Jesus Christ in the gospel, driven home to the heart by the Holy Spirit, which prompts and plants genuine faith and hope.

The goodness of God — not an exaggerated view of His wrath — leads us to repentance (Romans 2:4). God has no pleasure in the death of the wicked (Ezekiel 18:32). How much less would He be pleased to give them everlasting life in torment!

To sum up the matter, yes, God will punish the wicked with destruction. But no, He will not torment them for eternity.

A bit busy today my brother. Will respond in due time, lolz

Goshen360:

A bit busy today my brother. Will respond in due time, lolz

No hurry brother.

I am busy too, just creating some stories for later discussion or food for thought !

speak laters

I don't think the teaching of this article is right. It will be another longer time to go into this. I am kind of like tired for today. I might respond slowly though but let's give another thought for this verse and let's chew it in context what the Spirit is saying:

I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not. Jude 5.

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LoJ: @ frosbel

Before we start commenting on this topic (which would be interesting) i'd like to tell you that the very basis of your thinking are very fragile.

You are trying to judge the validity of a doctrine on the basis of what you feel being right or not. So you're basically making man's emotions and thinking the criteria and the filter that establishes any genuine doctrine and exposes any wrong teaching.

This of course is a great mistake, for GOD has no account to give to man. The ways of GOD are far higher that man's ability to comprehend: Part of humility is to recognize our insufficience and our lacks as humans to understand the deep things and thoughts of GOD.

“For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,”
declares the Lord.
“As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts. - Isaiah 55:8-9

If men were to think that way, nobody would believe in a GOD having a son. And his getting killed by his own creatures... doesn't make sense. No jew would accept that there can be more than one expression in the divinity (Elohim).

Therefore, the only test for a particular doctrine is the test of the scripture, and that of revelation (but at a personal level). Not what we think is right or wrong, what we believe is normal or not.

LoJ

Wow , talk of quoting scriptures out of context.

Is there really any point discussing these truths on this forum , seeing that you breezed pass the numerous bible verses I quoted , quoted a totally unrelated verse out of context and then turn round to accuse that I am basing this article on my opinion , wow !!!

Besides if you believe in an eternal hell of torture you have good friends with the Catholics and Muslims.

Goshen360: I don't think the teaching of this article is right. It will be another longer time to go into this. I am kind of like tired for today. I might respond slowly though but let's give another thought for this verse and let's chew it in context what the Spirit is saying:

I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not. Jude 5.

and what does destroy signify in your opinion, eternal death


"Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 1 Cor 15:12-20

Please explain the following verses from this scripture :

1. But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen

2. For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

3. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. How can they perish when their soul is somewhere waiting ?

Brother Frosbel,

It's like you didn't open this thread with an open mind to listen to other people's opinion. Well, it's okay because it's not every time we agree. I didn't highlight "destroy" in RED...if you read carefully, I highlighted "afterward". What that means is that, I wanted to convey a message that Jude was telling us examples to learn from which Apostle Paul also did that we should learn from the Israelites when God delivered them from Egypt but "afterward" destroyed them that didn't believe. Them that "believe not" is not just a mere statement. It was used to en-capsule ALL the sins committed by the Israelites "after" God delivered them from Egypt.

If God would not spare such, why do you think God would spare people that didn't believe in the "eternal death of His son" and also, we can as well say that after we give our lives to Christ, we can continue to sin after all, we are saved, God will not cast punish such sins. This in my view will put the message of the bible at risk. This is the first message am trying to convey by highlighting "afterward" in RED.

Now, back to the thread. I believe there is eternal judgment for eternal sinners - eternal hell who do not believe in the eternal death of Christ as well as there is eternal rest for those that believed in sacrifice of Jesus. God is a God of mercy BUT He is also a God of justice. The wicked and the righteous do not have same reward and this is very clear from the word of God.

I have also gone through your "thought" and where this thread was generated from: https://www.nairaland.com/974971/rich-man-lazarus. I should have read that thread when you started it but if you observe me closely, I don't jump at every thread. However, where I agree with you is the quote below:

frosbel:
I agree with my LORD and Savior on hell , he will burn the chaff with 'unquenchable fire ' and destroy both soul and body in hell.

Please let us stop portraying God as a sadist and chasing potential sheep away from the gospel.

Off course, no wise soul winning believer will chase people away from the kingdom of God BUT at the same time, without holiness no man shall see the Lord. It's a balanced Gospel. We don't go about condemning sinner but doesn't mean we should pamper sin (though we sometimes commit sin not as willfully but sometimes an act of mistake) and trample of the Grace of God.

]

Goshen360: Brother Frosbel,

It's like you didn't open this thread with an open mind to listen to other people's opinion.

Well, it's okay because it's not every time we agree. I didn't highlight "destroy" in RED...if you read carefully, I highlighted "afterward". What that means is that, I wanted to convey a message that Jude was telling us examples to learn from which Apostle Paul also did that we should learn from the Israelites when God delivered them from Egypt but "afterward" destroyed them that didn't believe. Them that "believe not" is not just a mere statement. It was used to en-capsule ALL the sins committed by the Israelites "after" God delivered them from Egypt.

No problem with this one for me.

Paul said if any man draw back my soul shall have no pleasure in him, but we are not of those who draw back to destruction , for we believe in the salvation of the soul.

Mark here, the soul needs salvation , and the soul that draws back will be destroyed.

If God would not spare such, why do you think God would spare people that didn't believe in the "eternal death of His son" and also, we can as well say that after we give our lives to Christ, we can continue to sin after all, we are saved, God will not cast punish such sins. This in my view will put the message of the bible at risk. This is the first message am trying to convey by highlighting "afterward" in RED.

There is no such thing as 'the eternal death ' of his SON my brother, please let us use scripture and not our own opinions , Jesus died ONCE, rose again and is drawing all men to himself , such that anyone who believes will receive eternal life.

Now, back to the thread. I believe there is eternal judgment for eternal sinners - eternal hell who do not believe in the eternal death of Christ as well as there is eternal rest for those that believed in sacrifice of Jesus. God is a God of mercy BUT He is also a God of justice. The wicked and the righteous do not have same reward and this is very clear from the word of God.

Again you are throwing around the word eternal, hold on for a minute and let us go to scripture.

"For Christ died for sins once [/b]for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit" - [b]1 Peter 3:18

The word used here is ONCE not eternal.

Also there is no such thing as eternal hell in scripture, there is eternal punishment, please see below :

And [the wicked] will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life. (Matthew 25:46 ESV)

Please brother try and review my posts and address scripture not me, the problem I have with a lot of Christians on Nairaland which is why we end up confusing the babes is that what we say does not line up with the bible.

Our standard should always be sola scriptrua , not man held opinions based on tradition.

God cannot stand sin and he will punish sin by all means, the soul that sins shall dies, there is the second death, the punishment is everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord in the lake of fire , I am tired of quoting verse after verse which people just ignore and start repeating tradition.

As Christians we should divide the word of truth rightly, I repeat our standard is scripture.

2 Timothy 2:15 - " Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."

God will only grant eternal life or immortality to the Christians who endure to the very end, the wicked will have their souls and body destroyed in the fire of hell as Jesus said, they are referred to as chaff which wil burn with unquenchable fire meaning that the fire will burn till they are destroyed.

What other punishment do you want for them, eternal torture , tell me where this is in the bible, death means death and not separation and destruction means destruction not eternal torture which is nowhere mentioned in the bible.

Again brother, I need scripture not opinions.

Off course, no wise soul winning believer will chase people away from the kingdom of God BUT at the same time, without holiness no man shall see the Lord. It's a balanced Gospel. We don't go about condemning sinner but doesn't mean we should pamper sin (though we sometimes commit sin not as willfully but sometimes an act of mistake) and trample of the Grace of God.

Nobody wants to worship a GOD who you describe to unbeliever as torturing their relatives and other countless billions for eternity, this is not the gospel.

The gospel is REPENT or PERISH !!! PERISH means DIE , how difficult is this ??

Indeed when we tell sinners how much GOD loves them , so much that he sent his SON to die on our behalf and defeat death so that we may not Die if we believe in him , if we also remember how God says we should choose life, how he says he does not delight in the death of the wicked , how he says to Israel ( now church ) why will you die , this tells sinners how deep his LOVE is for them, and how he hates SIN such that he had to send his own Son in sinful flesh to destroy the works of the devil which are SIN and DEATH.

"Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might destroy him who holds the power of death--that is, the devil--" - Hebrews 2:14

This is the message that saves, telling people that their unrepentant loves ones are in HELL right now is FALSE and is not going to save them, judgement comes first and then punishment , please use a Greek and Hebrew concordance to reread all those verses you think support your position.

Again let us stick to scripture, burning people for zillions and zillions of years is a catholic and islamic doctrine not of Christ.

God Bless.

It is my belief that those christians who do not see everlasting death as punishment enough for sin do not understand and appreciate the value of eternal life with God as a result of the ransom sacrifice of Jesus, hence their need to rebalance the injustice of sinful wicked humans with eternal torture.

dorox: It is my belief that those christians who do not see everlasting death as punishment enough for sin do not understand and appreciate the value of eternal life with God as a result of the ransom sacrifice of Jesus, hence their need to rebalance the injustice of sinful wicked humans with eternal torture.

Best comment of the month , 5 stars !!

they will even ignore all the scripture you throw at them just to hang on to the heretical doctrine of eternal hell.

Two questions based on your premise for belief, frosbel
1. Will sinners be tortured at all in the lake of fire, if yes, for how long do you consider a torture of sinners as fair?
2. Does any believer deserve eternal life, is it just ,of God for me to live as a child of God for six months, die and then live for billions of years eternally in God's kingdom?

Image123: Two questions based on your premise for belief, frosbel
1. Will sinners be tortured at all in the lake of fire, if yes, for how long do you consider a torture of sinners as fair?

No , sinners will not be tortured forever, it's not in the bible.

Sinners will be destroyed in the lake of fire, which is why it is called SECOND death and not eternal torture.

Please read , when or if you have time, my article on the immortal soul and you will understand.

2. Does any believer deserve eternal life, is it just ,of God for me to live as a child of God for six months, die and then live for billions of years eternally in God's kingdom?

Any sinner who truly repents of their sins , loves Jesus and lives a Holy life is worthy of eternal life, another term is immortality, or we can say corruptible ( the mortal soul ) will be swallowed up by that which is incorruptible ( a new body ) to live forever, amen.

Hi frosbel, i loved your comments on this topic, unlike me you tend to cite a lot of scriptures when making your arguement which is a very good thing especially when the scriture is quoted in context as is usually the case with you.
Are you the same person as fr0sbel?

frosbel:

Best comment of the month , 5 stars !!

they will even ignore all the scripture you throw at them just to hang on to the heretical doctrine of eternal hell.

somehow i dont quite think he was agreeing with you. he is saying that 'eternal fire' is a justifiable punishment for sinners.

buzugee: somehow i dont quite think he was agreeing with you. he is saying that 'eternal fire' is a justifiable punishment for sinners.

dorox: It is my belief that those christians who do not see everlasting death as punishment enough for sin [/b]do not understand and appreciate the value of eternal life with God as a result of the ransom sacrifice of Jesus, [b]hence their need to rebalance the injustice of sinful wicked humans with eternal torture.

No.

Read through his lines, not that I am asking for support , far from it, even if I am the last one standing I will proclaim Sola Scriptura.

frosbel:

dorox: It is my belief that those christians who do not see everlasting death as punishment enough for sin [/b]do not understand and appreciate the value of eternal life with God as a result of the ransom sacrifice of Jesus, [b]hence their need to rebalance the injustice of sinful wicked humans with eternal torture.

No.

Read through his lines, not that I am asking for support , far from it, even if I am the last one standing I will proclaim Sola Scriptura.

i believe his point is, and correct me if i am wrong dorox, people overestimate the magnitude of eternal punishment in hell because they dont juxtapose it with the magnitude of eternal life with God. I think both your positions are different. He is trying to justify eternal punishment in hell by measuring it up to eternal enjoyment with the lord.

buzugee: i believe his point is, and correct me if i am wrong dorox, people overestimate the magnitude of eternal punishment in hell because they dont juxtapose it with the magnitude of eternal life with God. I think both your positions are different. He is trying to justify eternal punishment in hell by measuring it up to eternal enjoyment with the lord.

We understand it differently but let us leave him to clarify.

Most important thing is we both agree.

I am getting worried nowadays that we agree on a number of issues

buzugee: somehow i dont quite think he was agreeing with you. he is saying that 'eternal fire' is a justifiable punishment for sinners.

I don't know what gave you that impression because just reading through my comment again it is obvious that i could not have been clearer in my support of frosbel's post.

dorox:
I don't know what gave you that impression because just reading through my comment again it is obvious that i could not have been clearer in my support of frosbel's post.

so you are saying that 'eternal punishment' is total rubbish and impossible ? if that is what you are saying then i have to say you have a convoluted way of getting your point across.

buzugee: i believe his point is, and correct me if i am wrong dorox, people overestimate the magnitude of eternal punishment in hell because they dont juxtapose it with the magnitude of eternal life with God. I think both your positions are different. He is trying to justify eternal punishment in hell by measuring it up to eternal enjoyment with the lord.

My point is that death is enough. The price for sin is death and being that we are all sinners we were doomed to die without hope of ever living again but because jesus has paid that price with his life those excercising faith in him won't have to pay with their life. That is why jesus said rhat he died so that many might live.

frosbel:

We understand it differently but let us leave him to clarify.

Most important thing is we both agree.

I am getting worried nowadays that we agree on a number of issues

LOL.

dorox:
My point is that death is enough. The price for sin is death and being that we are all sinners we were doomed to die without hope of ever living again but because jesus has paid that price with his life those excercising faith in him won't have to pay with their life. That is why jesus said rhat he died so that many might live.

Ok i think I see where you are coming from. Your point is you die and thats it. POOF. you are gone forever never to be seen again. Ok, i stand corrected. So i take it you do not believe in reincarnation then huh ?

Frosbel, i stand corrected. You guys had similar views. Got my wires crossed

"......This is what our beloved brother Paul [Frosbel] also wrote to you with the wisdom God gave him--speaking of these things in all of his letters[Thread/Article/Message]. Some of his comments are hard to understand....." 2 Peter 3:15-16 NLT

dorox:
My point is that death is enough. The price for sin is death and being that we are all sinners we were doomed to die without hope of ever living again but because jesus has paid that price with his life those excercising faith in him won't have to pay with their life. That is why jesus said rhat he died so that many might live.

But not to forget that it is not a nice death , it is second death in the Lake of Fire and Brimstone.

Fire purifies, so the devil and sinners based on the degree of their wickedness will be destroyed in the lake of fire which is the second death.

After this , the earth and heaven will renewed and the righteous will dwell in it forever.

There , there will be no more death , sorrow, crying or pain.

"He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away." - Revelation 21:4

Have you considered that the tears God will wipe away from their eyes will be because they see their relatives and friends forever destroyed but support GOD because of his LOVE , Justice and Righteousness.

Please let us warn everyone we know , so that they will not partake of the second death.

"But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars--their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death." - Revelation 21:8

Goshen360: "......This is what our beloved brother Paul [Frosbel] also wrote to you with the wisdom God gave him--speaking of these things in all of his letters[Thread/Article/Message]. Some of his comments are hard to understand....." 2 Peter 3:15-16 NLT

You cannot refute scripture or address any of my points , instead you take scripture AGAIN out of context. It shows that you need to go back to scripture, just like you try to use the bible to validate the strange tale of angels mating with women. God help us all.

Brother , Everyman for himself, you preach your Gospel, I will preach the Gospel of Christ which is Repent of Perish.

In Christ's LOVE,

Frosbel

FROSBEL VS GOSHEN. this here is about to be a thrilla in manilla * grabs popcorn *

yall both come on with it now. i want to see spiritual pugilism. textual uppercuts and precept upon precept body-slams. i need to see limbs severed and decapitation with the two-edged sword, the word, that is. these are your weapons gentlemen

hebrews 4 vs 12 For the word of God is alive and powerful. It is sharper than the sharpest two-edged sword, cutting between soul and spirit, between joint and marrow

jeremiah 23 vs 29 Is not my word like a fire? says the LORD; and like a hammer that breaks the rock in pieces

buzugee: FROSBEL VS GOSHEN. this here is about to be a thrilla in manilla * grabs popcorn *

yall both come on with it now. i want to see spiritual pugilism. textual uppercuts and precept upon precept body-slams. i need to see limbs severed and decapitation with the two-edged sword, the word, that is. these are your weapons gentlemen

hebrews 4 vs 12 For the word of God is alive and powerful. It is sharper than the sharpest two-edged sword, cutting between soul and spirit, between joint and marrow

jeremiah 23 vs 29 Is not my word like a fire? says the LORD; and like a hammer that breaks the rock in pieces

I don't think brother Goshen wants to fight this 'battle' with the two edged sword which is the Word, he wants to use the sword of tradition , or let me not presume, I will wait

Na wha for brother Frosbel and buzugee o. I didn't quote that scripture out of context. In fact, it's supports you. Am saying, this teaching is "hard" to digest. I want to listen/reason in the Holy Ghost with my brother Frosbel but it's this is a heavy stuff for me at this time. Maybe it's because my brain is too full and thinking too many things "personally" at this moment. I will rather leave it as it is for now until I get more perspectives. However, I do not preach my "own" Gospel and I will rather not raise the "sword of the spirit" against my brother at this time.

Shalom.

frosbel:

No , sinners will not be tortured forever, it's not in the bible.

Sinners will be destroyed in the lake of fire, which is why it is called SECOND death and not eternal torture.

Please read , when or if you have time, my article on the immortal soul and you will understand.




Any sinner who truly repents of their sins , loves Jesus and lives a Holy life is worthy of eternal life, another term is immortality, or we can say corruptible ( the mortal soul ) will be swallowed up by that which is incorruptible ( a new body ) to live forever, amen.

you didn't answer my first question at all frosbel. i asked if sinners would be tortured AT ALL in God's judgement, not if they will be tortured forever. And for how long will the torture last or how long would you consider godly torture.
on the second question, are you saying it is justice for anyone to live for billions of years in God's kingdom after living godly for just one month on earth, yet injustice for anyone to be punished for a billions of years after living in earth ungodly for about 40years? isn't that double standards?