Goshen360:









My brother, see as you quote me plenty time just because you don't know where the Holy Spirit is called God. Na wha for you o. See am happy you said you want to learn and know. This is where am happy for you, whatever is a puzzle for you is NO puzzle for someone else in the Kingdom of God. I'm also happy your id says truthislight. You and I have engaged some time in the truth and reasoning the word of God. However, I will require your tithe and Apostolic offering to show you where the Holy Spirit is called God.....are you ready? If you are ready, take your tithe and Apostolic offerings in your hand and let's pray so our heavenly father to bless it before I receive it unto the Apostle's feet

And AFTER showing you, will it change your view and what will your view be AFTER I show you?

truthislight:

so you are now the one to determined who enters the kingdom of God and who is not even though you have not been quoting the bible?

What the vertican calls a mystery you are here saying it is "not difficult to understand"

that shows how much lies you are capable of saying.

You now understand it more than those that came up with it.

Goshen360:

What exactly are you talking about? I don't understand you my brother. You said I should show you where the Holy Spirit is called God and then I told you to bring "all" tithe into the Apostle's feet. You didn't do that and now you are bragging..... Are you sure you still want the answer? Then do what I told you

truthislight:

i am bragging!

Today you will show me where the holy bible said that holy spirit is a person.

Goshen360:

Bros, cool down o. E be like say you dey fight me ni? Abeg bros cool down. No be fight. So you don't believe me when I said I can show you where the Holy Spirit is called God? Okay, na you sabi o. What am asking brother frosbel is the possibility of God, who is a Spirit being able to possess another Spirit if the Holy Spirit is not distinct from God's spirit? If a Spirit cannot have spirit, then it means the Holy Spirit is distinct from God. Is this too hard for you to comprehend?

Ihedinobi:

You want an argument, don't you? I will not accommodate you. I have kept reading your posts on these two threads touching on the Trinity and what I'm hearing is desire to justify your stand.

You declare that the Holy Spirit is not a Person, I warn you of blasphemy; immediately you start trying to show that you're not blaspheming against Him. I silently note that you are still very conscious of His Personality and declare as much in your protestations. I warn that questioning Jesus's Deity introduces a question to one's salvation and you begin a treatise into how a man gets saved. I ask how a mere man's death, even granted absolute moral purity, could satisfy God's Justice, you indicate ignorance of the relevance of the question which further casts doubt upon your salvation.

Now, you start a thread to insist that you stand no risk of losing your salvation regardless what your views on the Trinity are. Why do you feel the need to do so, I wonder? Is it perhaps because you are in question as to your salvation? It matters nothing what I say about it unless what I say is true.

First of all, let me assure you that moral purity aka goodness is impossible to everyone except God.

Second, I assure you that Jesus was morally pure, that is, good.

Third, Jesus had capacity to bear the moral burden of the whole world.

Fourth, given that God's Justice demands that it is the soul that sins that shall bear punishment, Jesus was in the legal position to answer for the full moral responsibility of the whole creation.

Finally, in and after taking the punishment for the world's sin, Jesus was able to fully, finally and forever destroy the cause, root and power of sin.

All the above is a brief expantiation of the Gospel. If you accept all the above as true, you accept that Jesus is God. That is the meaning of believing the Gospel without which no man may be saved.

I want you to get one thing straight: that a thing is difficult or impossible to understand does not mean that it is untrue. Or else, space science would be untrue. I also want to state emphatically that a pathological liar's declaration that the sun rose today does not mean that the sun actually did not rise. Therefore, it is not only unwise but absurd to throw out a doctrine, any doctrine, only because the Roman Catholic Church or any other organization holds it. Wisdom and the Bible demand that before any decision is taken regarding a doctrine, the doctrine must be rigorously tested against the Bible.

These are days abounding in deception. It is by means of these delusions that many shall fall away. Be careful to know that you are not one of them.

Goshen360:

Well, I will give you scriptures when you calm down. I can sense that you are becoming rude in your communication with other. Let me kindly leave you alone for now until you are able to add Grace to the truth you claim to know for Grace and truth came by Jesus.

Why the Trinity is an Illogical Farce: Fallacy of Equivocation

Introduction to the Fallacy

In Trinitarianism, the one true God is the Triune God, a three person being. Now try to be honest with yourself and ask yourself what Paul the Apostle of Jesus really and truly intended to tell us when he wrote this:

Therefore concerning the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that there is no such thing as an idol in the world, and that there is no God but one. For even if there are gods, whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him. (1 Corinthians 8:4-6).

Notice that Paul does not identify the one God as a Triune Being. He did not say, "for us there is one God: the Triune God." He identifies our one God as the Father. While Trinitarians insist that the one God is not one person, Paul does identify the one God as one person: the Father. Nor does Paul identify our one Lord as a Triune Being. Rather he identifies our one Lord as Jesus Christ.

An illusionist does his deceptions by keeping you focused on one thing so that you don't notice another. In Trinitarianism, what they like to do is keep all the attention on whether or not Jesus and the Holy Spirit are "God." In doing this, they keep your attention off the real question.

The Only True God

At John 17:3, Jesus makes a very important statement:

This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

Father.... You, the only true God.... "

When this verse is pointed out, most Trinitarians respond in this manner:

The passage does not say "only the Father is the true God." It rather says that the Father is the only true God. The Father is the only true God, the Son is the only true God, and the Holy Spirit is the only true God.

Now think about that carefully for a minute. In Trinitarianism, the one true God is the Triune God. Now let us try out their claim:

The Father is the Triune God, the Son is the Triune God, and the Holy Spirit is the Triune God.

It didn't work. In Trinitarian doctrine, the Father is not the Son or the Holy Spirit or vice versa and the Holy Spirit is not the Father or the Son or vice versa. And neither are any of them the Triune God for that would be saying one person is three persons. So why didn't it work? You will soon see.

Notice the statement:

Jesus is the one true God (True in Trinitarianism).

The one true God is the Triune God (True in Trinitarianism).

Jesus is that one true God (False in Trinitarianism).

What just happened there? Why didn't that work? Later in this article, you will see quite clearly what happened. But let us first observe this:

Jesus is the one true God (True in Trinitarianism).

The one true God is the Triune God (True in Trinitarianism).

Jesus is not that one true God (True in Trinitarianism).

Is.......is not......is........is not.... the foundation of illusionists. We will also decisively prove that the following is necessarily true in Trinitarian doctrine:

Jesus is the one true God (True in Trinitarianism).

The one true God is the Triune God (True in Trinitarianism).

Jesus is not that one true God (True in Trinitarianism).

Jesus is another true God (True in Trinitarianism).



A Doctrine from Logic and Reason

The first important thing to realize here is that the doctrine of the Trinity is a teaching that is arrived at by logic and reason. This doctrine is not taught anywhere in the Bible. Trinitarians come to their conclusions by observing statements made in several Bible verses and they reason out that God is three persons in one divine substance. If their reasoning is incorrect, the doctrine is also incorrect.

Some Trinitarians like to claim their doctrine is incomprehensible complete with a quotation of Isaiah 55:3, "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways," declares the LORD." But so what? God's thoughts are not our thoughts. We are not talking about God's thoughts but our own human reasoning process that Trinitarians have used to conclude their doctrine. Since there is no Scripture verses which says anything like, "The one God is three persons," no Trinitarian can show you their doctrine without appealing to reason. Indeed, their doctrine is the product of reason. It is therefore quite insane to claim their own reasoning cannot be comprehended.

Some Trinitarians like to claim they should just "accept the doctrine of the Trinity on faith." What exactly are we to accept on faith? This doctrine is not taught anywhere in Scripture. What then do these people expect anyone to accept? The only thing then that one could possibly "accept on faith" is that other men have reasoned out this doctrine correctly. Now why would anyone desire to blindly accept what other men say? Do we not kow that this kind of response is just how every false teacher out there would hope we would respond? Only a madman would accept things on blind faith, and without question, from other men when Jesus and his Apostles repeatedly warned us that men, wolves in sheep's clothing, would deceive the flock with well-turned words. But such are the statements of people who do not wish to even entertain their beliefs might be erroneous.

Now while there is much more to it than the simple argument which follows, the following argument illustrates the basic way which Trinitarians themselves claim their reasoning and conclusions are correct:

Premise 1: The Bible teaches that there is only one God.

Premise 2: The Bible teaches that there are three distinct persons called God, known as the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Conclusion: The three persons, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are the one God.

Sounds plausible doesn't it? Well it should sound plausible. If it didn't at least sound plausible then nobody would believe it. But the question is not whether it sounds plausible. Fallacies sound plausible. The question is whether this reasoning is plausible.

The doctrine of the Trinity is a farce because it cannot be maintained without implementing the fallacy of equivocation, or by admitting that Jesus is another God in addition to the Triune God. This will be illustrated quite clearly. In logic and reason, a conclusion is completely false if it can be shown that the fallacy of equivocation is used in the argument and the argument stands or falls where the fallacy is used. So let us first review the nature of this fallacy.



The Nature of the Fallacy of Equivocation

The English word fallacy is a nice sounding word for a deception, a mistaken conclusion. This word ultimately comes from the Latin word fallere, to deceive. A fallacy is an argument that can sound plausible at first but is completely erroneous and misleading. Essentially, it is a misleading argument which results in a farce, a ridiculous or totally empty conclusion.

The Fallacy of Equivocation is the misleading use of a word with more than one meaning in an argument (by glossing over which meaning is intended at a particular time). Here is a humourous example of the fallacy of equivocation resulting in a complete farce:

The sign said, "FINE for parking here."

So I thought it was fine to park there.

As you can see here, the word "FINE" was used in two different ways in the argument which results in a fallacy, a farce, a completely ridiculous conclusion. In the first statement, the word FINE has a definition meaning a financial penalty. But in the second statement, the word FINE has a definition meaning acceptability. The letters "F", "I", "N", and "E," are the same in each statement. This set of letters sounds exactly the same in each statement. The result is that the argument "sounds" right because the same word is used. But it is a complete illusion resulting in a ridiculous conclusion. This is because the two concepts behind the word "FINE" in each sentence are completely different. When we present logical arguments, we are not comparing sets of alphabet letters and comparing how they sound from one instance to the next. Rather, we are dealing with a comparison of CONCEPTS.

If you watch closely, you will find that this fallacy is a common device of false teachers in Christianity. It is really quite easy to deceive people using this fallacy when the concepts behind the letters of words are more subtle than our example above. The way to flesh out an error like this is to use a different word with the same meaning which clarifies the error.

The sign said, "FINANCIAL PENALTY for parking here."

So I thought it was ACCEPTABLE to park there.

Here we illustrate the truth of the matter by comparing the TRUE difference in the two concepts being compared. The argument is not only ridiculous, it also sounds and appears more absurd that it did when the same words were used. And it more reflects the ludicrosity of the argument in a way less confusing to human minds. When we examine the concepts, the definitions, behind the words more carefully, we can discover how absurd an argument really is. This is what we will also later show with the Trinity doctrine.

Here is another example:

The sign at the beach said: "Man-eating sharks in the water."

"Since I am a woman I thought I did not need to worry about man-eating sharks."

In this example, the word "man" means "human" in the first statement but means "male gender" in the second statement. As you can see, the difference in the concepts, the definitions, behind the words is more subtle than it was in our first example. This is how the Trinity fallacy works.

Now let us look at how deceptive these fallacies can get. In the Bible, we are told that God called the man and woman he created by the name "Adam."

At Genesis 1:27 we are told God created man in his image. The word used there is "Adam," the Hebrew word for "human." And we are also told God made "Adam" male and female. We find the same thing at Genesis 5:2 which says, "He created them male and female, and blessed them and called them Adam in the day they were created.

So let us conclude then that both Adam and Eve are Adam. This sounds a lot like what Trinitarians claim doesn't it? Jesus is the Son of God and Jesus is God. Eve is the wife of Adam and is Adam. But is she? No. Eve is adam, not Adam. She is human, not the identity Adam.

Carefully observe how that subtle difference in terms, a simple capital letter, changes the definition of the word. Adam means the first man. The word "adam" simply means "human" and can refer to any man. And so we were able to create an absurd argument from Scripture that Eve was Adam. It sounded good and we used Scripture to do it. But it was a complete farce. The Trinitarian argument is created and falls apart in exactly the same way.



The Trinity Farce

What many people do not know is that the doctrine of the Trinity implements the same kind of fallacy in their argumentation, the fallacy of equivocation. Let us remember that the Fallacy of Equivocation is the misleading use of a word with more than one meaning in an argument (by glossing over which meaning is intended at a particular time). Trinitarians arrive at an absurd conclusion because they use two different definitions of the word "God" in their argumentation.

Let us look again at their basic argument. But let us also make Premise 2 into a statement which is completely true in Trinitarianism:

Premise 1: The Bible teaches that there is only one God.

Premise 2: The Bible teaches that the one God is the Triune God.

Conclusion: Each of the three persons, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are that one God.

Their argument cannot work this way can it?

Trinitarians use more than one definition of the word "God" in their argumentation and this is why the doctrine turns out to be a farce.

1. God - a divine nature/essence.

2. God - a personal being

But it gets even worse. There are actually five or more definitions of the word "God" in Trinitarian doctrine.

1. God - a divine nature/essence of three persons

2. God - a person who is the Father of Jesus

3. God - another person who is the Father's son

4. God - yet another person who is the Holy Spirit

5. God - and yet another identity who is the Triune Being

Now if you have been following along, you can see how easy it is for them to commit the fallacy of equivocation and make an argument which might "sound" good (because they always use the word "God" ) but in the end their conclusion results in an absurdity because they have used different definitions of the word "God" in their argument and have thereby compared two or more different concepts just like the examples above. Let us now review what that absurdity is.

The word "God" in the Scriptures refers to the Creator, the personal identity who created the universe. However, Trinitarians have created other definitions for the word God as we have seen above.

Because God is regularly identified as a "HE" and "HIM" and "I" and "ME," Trinitarians are forced to admit their Triune God is a single personal being. While they refuse to admit that a single personal being is a person, they do insist that their one God is a single personal being and identity which is why this God can say "I" and "ME" and be referenced as "HE" and "HIM."

And one of the scribes came up and heard them disputing with one another, and seeing that he answered them well, asked him, "Which commandment is the first of all?" Jesus answered, "The first is, "Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one; and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.' The second is this, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these." And the scribe said to him, "You are right, Teacher; you have truly said that He is one, and there is no other but He; and to love Him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the strength, and to love one's neighbor as oneself, is much more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices." And when Jesus saw that he answered wisely, he said to him, "You are not far from the kingdom of God."
This results in 4 WHO's, 4 HE's. There is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. In Trinitarian doctrine this is three WHO's, three "HE's". But they also have one more WHO, one more HE, the Triune God, HE,HIM, who refers to HIMSELF as "I" and "ME". And that is the God they don't like to talk about when they are reasoning out their doctrine. That is only the God they want to find in conclusion.

Trinitarians want you to spend all your time focusing on whether or not the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, are three persons who are the one and only God. They want to take your attention off the fact that their one and only God is the Triune God in their argumentation process. They do not want you to ask where the Triune God fits in their argument. They only want you to see their Triune God is the conclusion to their argument.

It is quite easy to claim three things are one. Three feet are one yard. Three persons are one trio. Three persons are one human nature. All you need to do is put three things into one category. So when Trinitarians claim three persons are one God, and they implicitly mean that these three persons are one divine nature, it is quite easy to persuade people. This is true because six billion humans are one humanity and one flesh. Same thing.

But they wish to stop right there. However, they cannot stop there. There is another WHO, another HE. The one God of Scrpture is a WHO, a personal identity.



The Deception Precisely Illustrated

When Trinitarians say, "the Father is the one God, the Son is the one God, the Holy Spirit is the one God," they implicitly define the word "God" to mean "divine nature/essene." Hence, they are saying "the Father is the one divine nature/essence, the Son is the one divine nature/essence, and the Holy Spirit is the one divine nature/essence." That is about as simple as saying, "the three, Adam, Eve, and Abel are one human nature."

HOWEVER, and this is the critical turning point, Trinitarians ALSO define "the one God" as the Triune Being, the one Triune God. And now it does not work to say, "the Father is the Triune God, the Son is the Triune God, the Holy Spirit is the Triune God." Let us now return to their "logic."

It is quite easy to make a claim that Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are one divine nature. It is just as easy as claiming Adam, Eve, and Cain were one sinful flesh. But the God of the Bible is not simply a nature. The God of the Bible is a personal identity who has a divine nature in the same way that Adam is a personal identity that has a human nature.

Now since there is only one God, any claim that Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are that one God, IS ALSO a claim that each of these three are that one and only personal identity, the one "I" who created the universe. But in the doctrine of the Trinity, each one of these three persons is not this one "I." In Trinitarianism that one "I" would be the one Triune God. None of these three are that one Triune God. Rather they are each only one hypostasis of that one Triune God.



In Trinitarianism this problem results in:

Jesus is the one true God (the one divine nature)

Jesus is not the one true God (the one Triune God who created the world)

Now if you are a thinking person, you know by the above two statements that we have a serious deception on our hands. Let us now illustrate their fallacy of equivocation clearly:

Premise 1: There is one WHO.

Premise 2: Father, Son, Holy Spirit, are each the one WHO.

Conclusion: The three persons, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are the one WHO.



FALSE.



Premise 1: There is one WHO.

Premise 2: Father, Son, Holy Spirit, are each the one DIVINE NATURE.

Conclusion: The three persons, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are the one DIVINE NATURE.



Fallacy of Equivocation - using a word with two different definitions in the same argument does not result in a logical conclusion. Let us try one more time:


Premise 1: There is one DIVINE NATURE.

Premise 2: Father, Son, Holy Spirit, are each the one DIVINE NATURE.

Conclusion: The three persons, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are the one DIVINE NATURE.

Presuming Premise 2 is correct, and presuming the Holy Spirit is a separate third person (both of which this site denies), this argument is TRUE.

Now here is the most important question of all. When the Bible says that there is one God, is it referring to a WHO or a WHAT (divine nature). It is referring to a WHO, a personal IDENTITY. The one God is a LORD, a personal identity, a personal authority, a personal identity to be loved. The one God is not simply a "divine nature" that is possessed by three persons. Divine natures do not created universes, beget sons, Lord over creation, or anything of the like. Personal identity does such a thing. The one God is a Lord of the chosen people of God, a personal authority figure to be served.

And one of the scribes came up and heard them disputing with one another, and seeing that he answered them well, asked him, "Which commandment is the first of all?" Jesus answered, "The first is, "Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one; and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.' The second is this, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these." And the scribe said to him, "You are right, Teacher; you have truly said that He is one, and there is no other but He; and to love Him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the strength, and to love one's neighbor as oneself, is much more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices." And when Jesus saw that he answered wisely, he said to him, "You are not far from the kingdom of God."
Jesus and the Jewish scribe understood that the words "the Lord our God the Lord is one" to mean the Lord is one "HE" not one nature.

Let us use the word WHO rather than the word "God" and see what happens.

Premise 1: There is one WHO. TRUE

Premise 2: The Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit, are each that one WHO. FALSE

Conclusion: The three persons, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are the one WHO. FALSE

The Trinity is FALSE. You see, all you need to do is ask a Trinitarian to define his terms.

Worship Jesus' God.


In Trinitarianism, there is the one God, the Triune God, and Jesus is "another God." He certainly is not the Triune God. So when it is said by Trinitarians that Jesus is God it means "Jesus is divine by nature" because it cannot mean "Jesus is that one Triune God." Hence, their own doctrine results in there being the one Triune God and Jesus is another God because the word "God" in the second statement is another definition for the word "God", another God. Indeed, it also means, in the very same way, that the Father is another God. Different definitions of God (i.e. defining different identities) means you have different Gods on your hands, different YAHWEHs, different Lords.

Or their own doctrine results in Jesus truly being truly God (truly divine by nature) and the Triune God is another God (not a divine essence but the one being who created the universe) since the word "God" in each of these two claims is different by definition. Six of one, half dozen of the other.

This can be further demonstrate in this way. At 1 Corinthians 8:6, Paul says that we have one Lord, Jesus Christ. Quote this verse and ask a Trinitarian if his one Lord is Jesus Christ? Once he answers, ask him if his one Lord is Jesus or the Father or the Holy Spirit or the Triune God.

Essentially, Trinitarians are trying to persuade people they can have their cake and eat it too. They wish to persuade you Jesus is the one God. But at the same time they wish to persuade you that the Triune God is their one God. Jesus is not that one God because that one God is the Triune God and Jesus is not the Triune God. Hence, they must either accept there are two Gods, the one that Jesus is and the one that Jesus is not. Or they must confess their doctrine is wrong. Their only other option is denial.

Therefore concerning the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that there is no such thing as an idol in the world, and that there is no God but one. For even if there are gods, whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him. (1 Corinthians 8:4-6).

There is one God, the Father, and there is one Lord Jesus Christ and this one God, the Father, is the God of this one Lord, "the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ." Worship not any other God than the God Jesus worshiped and served.

Goshen360:

Brother, what exactly is the problem? Is this how you communicate with other people not to talk of your fellow believers. Are we fighting or what exactly is the issue here. Okay, you haven't know me too well. Sometimes, I throw in jokes just to ease tensions but you are not proving mature communication here. please, try to add Grace to the truth you know. Abeg cool down okay. You are being too harsh with the use of words. Cool down and let brotherly love prevail. Okay. I beg you.

truthislight:

i should calm down so that you can lead people to eternal destruction?

Why should i calm down when you are teaching a pegan doctrine?

No, show us where the scriptures says that the holy spirit is a person/God


you had said that the bible said that the holy spirit is a God, so please show us.

if you quote the bible as a child of truth it must be what the bible says and not to lie with God's word.

Dont you have the fear of God?

How can you say that the bible called the holy spirit God the way it calls Yahweh and Jesus when it does not?

nedostic: @Goshen360,


This was the same question I posed to Frosbel, unfortunately, he has been too busy to 'shy away' from my question for obvious reasons (this is on a lighter note, Frosbel).

truthislight:

if i tell you i dont deliberately lie you may not belive it.

Friend, i HATE lies.

Most especially lies on God's word.

From GENESIS to revelation. There is no where that the bible said that the holy spirit is God, so, when you said that the bible said that the calls the "holy spirit God/god" there is no way that can be funny.

The father of the lies is satan so when i see a person lying my disdain is instanta and am even more seriouse when it can cost peoples life, how much more do you think that God will feel?

People can be wrong but not when they say that the bible says what the bible did not say.

Goshen360:



Brother, I say make you cool down small. Abi wetin happen naw? No kill me because of this Holy Spirit o.

Okay, do you believe the Bible says the father is God?

Do you believe that the Bible calls the Son, God?

Now we are left with where the Bible calls the Holy Spirit God right? Answer the two question above and I will show you, okay. E be like say you wan tear me here o. Take am easy bro....but no forget my tithe for me to tell you sha

truthislight:

this whole thing is because you quoted the bible as saying that the holy spirit is a God, and that is not true.

The bible calls Jesus God.

The bible calls Yahweh God.

The bible calls them persons.

"Infact the bible says that christ enters into heaven itself to appear befor the person of God"

but no WHERE in the bible from GENESIS to Revelation that the bible calls the "holy spirit God"

but you on this thread said it does!

Can you now understand where am coming from?

If some one says he accepts the trinity, fine and good to the person, but let him not say that the bible teaches it.

Even the catholic church calls it a mystery and not that the bible calls the hole spirit a God.

Goshen360:

My brother, I have told you times without number. Your manner of communication is too harsh and you need to cool down. Let God teach you how to add Grace to truth. If you keep talking like this, I might as well decide NOT to show you where the Holy Spirit is called God in the Bible. To me, you are kind of too harsh on the choice of words, that is not the way to deal with other believers. Relax and learn.....no be gra-gra. okay.

Goshen360:

Are you VERY SURE you have read Genesis to Revelation and you didn't see where the bible calls the Holy Spirit God? Are you VERY SURE?

Goshen360:

Bros, you go fight me tire o. I say make you cool down. In fact, you need to take a deep breath and chill out. I know you are fighting for the truth but I asked you, have you read Genesis to Revelation and you sure you didn't see where the Bible calls the Holy Spirit God . How am I then suppose to be sure you know the truth that your id bears? In fact, I will show you MORE than one scriptures where the bible calls the Holy Spirit God ONLY when you cool down and stop all this your gra-gra. If you make me vex sef, I will postpone it till tomorrow and let you salivate for me to show you. Cool down bro.

nedostic: @Frosbel, no qualms. I know you have been quite busy responding to our responses.

@ Frosbel, Goshen360,Trueslight, et al.

Still on the water baptsim formula question. Let me reiterate it once more, how come most of the baptisms as done in the bible were in Jesus name and the not the name of the father, son, and holy spirit.

Hint: History suggests that the roman catholic church might have 'tinkered' with the baptismal formula to suit the pagan doctrine of the trinity.


I am convinced some of us are truth seekers and and an avid readers.

I am a 'little' semblance of your ilk becuase I do not fully support traditions that are tweaked in falsehood.

Anyone can do a 'google search' on this matter if one cares enough.

Perhaps, anyone who has access to this 'The Catholic Encyclopedia, II, page 263' can equally read it and check if of a truth the baptismal formula was changed or not.

More so, these links would be of help to anyone who might be in doubt of the change in baptism formula.

http://www.upcbaypoint.com/Articles2/early_church_baptism.html

http://soul-net.freeservers.com/Baptism.htm

http://www.angelfire.com/ga3/armageddon/HistoricalBaptism.htm

http://www.zimbio.com/The+Acts+of+the+Apostles/articles/NOzb41ZPnVv/Baptismal+Formula+History+Scripture

http://www.globalanswers.us/PDFs/Christian%20Baptism.pdf

http://www.torahofmessiah.com/matt2819.htm

http://www.bukisa.com/articles/419748_baptism-in-the-name-of-the-lord-jesus-christ

http://www.endtimesministry.com/biblestudies/baptism.html

@ All, please let us be guided by truth rather than traditions that run amok to what was earlier done by the Apostles.

More so, as Christians, the onus is on us to study the bible and history most times serves as a good reference point to tracing the truth in one's beliefs. We are indeed in a 'fortunate' 'INFOage' in a way; let us explore the WEB the more on other salient issues. I believe the spirit of God is embedded on most of these eye-opening scriptures!

Mind you, I hate to say this, I have a strong aversion and derision for denominations, I am looking forward to a church and not RCCG or Deeperlife or Winners or Catholic or JW,or Oneness, just name it. Too much of confusions from multifarious sects and denominational dogmas!

We are seemingly 'near' what the book of Daniel 12:4 stated about extensive knowledge base!


I am awaiting a contrary opinion on this baptism in JESUS name and not in the TRINITARIAN formula backed up with scriptures and perhaps historical facts as well culled from websites.

I want to learn please! God bless us all!!

If we or I alone might have erred from peddling false doctrine(s), may the most High God grant us mercy and grace(AMEN)!!!

Goshen360: @ truthislight,

Let us start with this scripture of the Holy Spirit/Ghost being called God. Let's start here and if time permit me, I will show your more, okay.

But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back [part] of the price of the land? Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God. Acts 5:3-4 Kjv.

What do you see of this scripture? Tell me your understanding here and we will continue from there.

nedostic: @Frosbel, no qualms. I know you have been quite busy responding to our responses.

@ Frosbel, Goshen360,Trueslight, et al.

Still on the water baptsim formula question. Let me reiterate it once more, how come most of the baptisms as done in the bible were in Jesus name and the not the name of the father, son, and holy spirit.

Hint: History suggests that the roman catholic church might have 'tinkered' with the baptismal formula to suit the pagan doctrine of the trinity.


I am convinced some of us are truth seekers and and an avid readers.

I am a 'little' semblance of your ilk becuase I do not fully support traditions that are tweaked in falsehood.

Anyone can do a 'google search' on this matter if one cares enough.

Perhaps, anyone who has access to this 'The Catholic Encyclopedia, II, page 263' can equally read it and check if of a truth the baptismal formula was changed or not.

More so, these links would be of help to anyone who might be in doubt of the change in baptism formula.

http://www.upcbaypoint.com/Articles2/early_church_baptism.html

http://soul-net.freeservers.com/Baptism.htm

http://www.angelfire.com/ga3/armageddon/HistoricalBaptism.htm

http://www.zimbio.com/The+Acts+of+the+Apostles/articles/NOzb41ZPnVv/Baptismal+Formula+History+Scripture

http://www.globalanswers.us/PDFs/Christian%20Baptism.pdf

http://www.torahofmessiah.com/matt2819.htm

http://www.bukisa.com/articles/419748_baptism-in-the-name-of-the-lord-jesus-christ

http://www.endtimesministry.com/biblestudies/baptism.html

@ All, please let us be guided by truth rather than traditions that run amok to what was earlier done by the Apostles.

More so, as Christians, the onus is on us to study the bible and history most times serves as a good reference point to tracing the truth in one's beliefs. We are indeed in a 'fortunate' 'INFOage' in a way; let us explore the WEB the more on other salient issues. I believe the spirit of God is embedded on most of these eye-opening scriptures!

Mind you, I hate to say this, I have a strong aversion and derision for denominations, I am looking forward to a church and not RCCG or Deeperlife or Winners or Catholic or JW,or Oneness, just name it. Too much of confusions from multifarious sects and denominational dogmas!

We are seemingly 'near' what the book of Daniel 12:4 stated about extensive knowledge base!


I am awaiting a contrary opinion on this baptism in JESUS name and not in the TRINITARIAN formula backed up with scriptures and perhaps historical facts as well culled from websites.

I want to learn please! God bless us all!!

If we or I alone might have erred from peddling false doctrine(s), may the most High God grant us mercy and grace(AMEN)!!!

The Father is the Holy Spirit


In the doctrine of the Trinity, the Father is most definitely NOT the Holy Spirit. You absolutely cannot confess this doctrine and say the Father is the Holy Spirit. They are not the same but DIFFERENT; they are two DIFFERENT persons in the doctrine of the Trinity. The doctrine of the Trinity would be proven false if the Father is the Holy Spirit. But the Scriptures do make it absolutely clear that the Father is the Holy Spirit in a number of ways.



The Holy Spirit is the Father's Spirit

And in the last days it shall be, God declares, that I will pour out MY Spirit upon all flesh. (Acts 2:17).

He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through HIS Spirit in the inner man. (Ephesians 3:16).

By this we know that we abide in Him and He in us, because He has given us of HIS Spirit. (1 John 4:13).

Behold, my servant whom I have chosen, my beloved with whom my soul is well pleased. I will put MY Spirit upon him. (Matthew 12:18).



The Holy Spirit is the Spirit OF God the Father

When they bring you before the synagogues and the rulers and the authorities, do not worry about how or what you are to speak in your defense, or what you are to say; for the Holy Spirit will teach you in that very hour what you ought to say." (Luke 12:11-12).

But when they hand you over, do not worry about how or what you are to say; for it will be given you in that hour what you are to say. For it is not you who speak, but it is the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you. (Matthew 10:19-20).

Just as nobody would say the spirit of Elijah is another person separate from Elijah we should not say the Spirit of God is another person separate from God the Father. Just as nobody would say their own spirit is not themselves but someone else, nobody should say the Holy Spirit of God the Father is another someone else.



John 4:24 - God is Spirit

At John 4:24, we read that God is Spirit.

You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews. But an hour is coming, and now is, when the True worshipers will worship the Father in Spirit and Truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers. God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in Spirit and Truth. (John 4:22-24).

Jesus said that God is Spirit and true worshipers must worship God is Spirit and Truth. Paul knew this kind of language meant worshiping in the Holy Spirit:

We are the true circumcision, who worship in the Spirit of God. (Philippians 3:3).

There were no capitalization conventions when the words in the Bible were written. Trinitarian translations tend to use a lower case 's' in this verse to read, "God is spirit." The word "God" in this context is obviously a reference to God the Father and it is not acceptable in Trinitarian doctrine to say God the Father is the Holy Spirit because they are two different persons in Trinitarian doctrine. However, the context reveals the truth of the matter.

God the Father is Spirit, Holy Spirit. God the Father is Holy. Our Holy God is therefore Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of the Father. The Father IS Spirit, Holy Spirit. So when Jesus says that God the Father is Spirit, it is abundantly clear he is referring to a Spirit that is Holy, Holy Spirit.

Paul tells us there is ONE Spirit (Eph 4:4) and we know that this one Spirit is the Spirit of the Father (Matthew 10:20) and the Holy Spirit is the one and same Spirit. Therefore, Jesus cannot be talking about another Spirit. Since there is only one Spirit and the Spirit of the Father and the Holy Spirit are therefore the same thing, the Spirit in question is necessarily the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father (John 15:26) because God the Father is that Spirit. Jesus is here teaching about worshiping in the Spirit and in Truth. In the context of John's Gospel, it is quite clear that this is a reference to the Spirit of Truth, the Holy Spirit, which Jesus promises will come to the disciples. It is also quite clear that Paul's words about being the True worshipers and "worshiping in the Spirit of God" are referring to the same idea again. There is no way of honestly escaping the fact that this passage is referring to the Holy Spirit and that Jesus's words "God is Spirit" necessarily mean "the Father is the Holy Spirit."

When we honestly appreciate the facts before us, it is absolutely clear that the Spirit in question in Jesus' words, "God is Spirit," is the Holy Spirit. God the Father is the Spirit of Truth in which true worshipers worship, the Spirit in which we walk, the Holy Spirit. In Trinitarianism, the Father is NOT the Holy Spirit and so they must reject and deny Jesus' teaching here in John 4.



The Father of Baby Jesus

Believers in the doctrine of the Trinity, have to accept the absurdity of one person fathering baby Jesus but another person turns out to be Jesus father. In Trinitarian doctrine, the Holy Spirit is the third person of the Trinity and the Father is the first person of the Trinity. In Trinitarian doctrine these are two different persons and the Father is NOT the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit is NOT the Father. And so they have the ridiculous situation of one person begetting Jesus, the 3rd person of the Trinity, but another person turns out to be Jesus' father, the 1st person of the Trinity. One person fathers Jesus but another person is Jesus' father. It is absurd.

In the Scriptures, we have a different story. The Father begets baby Jesus by the power of His own Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is not a different person than the Father but his own divine nature, His own power, presence, and life. And so we find the Father HIMSELF begetting baby Jesus and not another person as we do in Trinitarian doctrine. The very reason the Father is Jesus' Father is because He is the one who begat him and not someone else.

The Child who has been begotten in her is of the Holy Spirit. (Matthew 1:20).

The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you and for that reason the begotten holy one shall be called the Son of God.

The above facts concerning Jesus' birth demonstrate quite clearly that the Father and the Holy Spirit most certainly cannot be two different persons as they are in the doctrine of the Trinity.



The Father Our Comforter

Trinitarians have confused what Jesus is talking about concerning the Comforter in the Gospel of John. The Greek word for the Comforter is Parakletos. It is from the Greek words Paraklesis, Comfort, and Parakaleo, to Comfort. A Parakletos provides paraklesis. A Comforter provides comfort. Note what Paul says to the Corinthians:

Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all paraklesis, who parakaleo us in all our affliction so that we will be able to parakaleo those who are in any affliction with the paraklesis with which we ourselves are parakaleo by God.

Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all Comfort, who Comforts us in all our affliction so that we will be able to Comfort those who are in any affliction with the Comfort with which we ourselves are Comforted by God.

If you love Me, you will keep My commands. I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Parakletos, that He may be with you forever; that is the Spirit of Truth.... If anyone loves me, he will keep my word; and my Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him.



The doctrine of the Trinity affirms that the Father is most definitely NOT the Holy Spirit. The Father and the Holy Spirit are two different persons in the doctrine of the Trinity. However, the Bible makes it abundantly clear that the Father and the Holy Spirit most certainly cannot be two different persons.

http://www.angelfire.com/space/thegospeltruth/trinity/articles/SpiritFather.html

truthislight:

NO you did not study the bible with holy spirit but with a ghost.

Dont use illustration to teach others the bible, quote the bible, the bible does not need your help, it can defend itself.

If you use illustration to teach them the bible and end up being wrong will you Give them eternal life?

If it is God that will give eternal life why not let God's word speak for itself so that God will be happy with the person for following his word?

Dont you know that teaching out of the bible is lawlessness?