frosbel:

"You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I." - John 14:28

"But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God." - 1 Corinthians 11:3

" and you are of Christ, and Christ is of God." - 1 Corinthians 3:23

ignorance at its peak . . . . John 1 which outlines the revealed origin of Christ has been shown to you, yet you choose to ignore it. Philipians 2:6 clearly state, that Christ is GOD but chooses to be submissive to the Father's will.

Why are you refusing to answer my questions? . . . . .. what are u afraid of?

frosbel:

"You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I." - John 14:28

"But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God." - 1 Corinthians 11:3

" and you are of Christ, and Christ is of God." - 1 Corinthians 3:23

Now you are talking...

Of course, The father is greater than him (the son) based on the role he is occupying at that point. Jesus existed for a reason - to redeem mankind. In that context he is a man and he is subject to God to fulfill the purpose which he came on earth for.

We have to interpret scriptures with scriptures.

I would appreciate if you don't quote the same scriptures at me, rather explain the scriptures I pointed out.

noetic16:

ignorance at its peak . . . . John 1 which outlines the revealed origin of Christ has been shown to you, yet you choose to ignore it. Philipians 2:6 clearly state, that Christ is GOD but chooses to be submissive to the Father's will.

Why are you refusing to answer my questions? . . . . .. what are u afraid of?

mate , you are the one confusing yourself without performing a proper exegesis of scripture.

Stop posting random verses without understanding their true meaning.

frosbel:

mate , you are the one confusing yourself without performing a proper exegesis of scripture.

Stop posting random verses without understanding their true meaning.

Dude, please educate my ignorance . . . . .I have asked you the basis of your heresy in a series of questions. what do u understand by salvation? And can you provide an outline for your anti-Christ belief and doctrine? I am happy to expose your ignorance.

Tgirl4real:

Now you are talking...

Of course, The father is greater than him (the son) based on the role he is occupying at that point. Jesus existed for a reason - to redeem mankind. In that context he is a man and he is subject to God to fulfill the purpose which he came on earth for.

We have to interpret scriptures with scriptures.

I would appreciate if you don't quote the same scriptures at me, rather explain the scriptures I pointed out.

as per bolded, no sister.

Jesus had one role and he was born for that purpose , he was not GOD and he is still not GOD , presently he sits on the right hand of his father.

"Pilate said, "So you are a king?" Jesus responded, "You say I am a king. Actually, I was born and came into the world to testify to the truth. All who love the truth recognize that what I say is true." - John 18:37

I think the dude read his bible from behind, there's a reason why its called [size=16pt]"TRINITY"[/size] not "Shape shifters"

frosbel:

as per bolded, no sister.

Jesus had one role and he was born for that purpose , he was not GOD and he is still not GOD , presently he sits on the right hand of his father.

"Pilate said, "So you are a king?" Jesus responded, "You say I am a king. Actually, I was born and came into the world to testify to the truth. All who love the truth recognize that what I say is true." - John 18:37

Who saved you? what is the basis of your salvation? what is the foundation of your salvation?

You are NOT saved, because you do NOT know CHRIST.

frosbel: "Matthew 27:46 "And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? That is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"

"I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me." - John 5:30


"And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." - Matthew 19:17

You are simply contradicting yourself . . .

The first scripture, speaks of Jesus as a man with feelings, emotions, that can feel pain. He walked on earth as a man.

His mission on earth is to save mankind and show them the way to God. He humbled himself and none can proclaim him as majesty until he has been fully revealed. They didn't even recognise him as the Messiah - the saviour of the world who is to come. But the prophet of old saw ahead and proclaimed...

You don't expect him not to point people to God, his Father, who is the same as Him.

noetic16:

Who saved you? what is the basis of your salvation? what is the foundation of your salvation?

You are NOT saved, because you do NOT know CHRIST.

Only a Pharisee could have made the comment as per bolded, it borders on arrogance and pomposity.

My salvation lies in my belief that Jesus is the Messiah and not some PAGAN Myth called Trinity.

frosbel:

as per bolded, no sister.

Jesus had one role and he was born for that purpose , he was not GOD and he is still not GOD , presently he sits on the right hand of his father.

"Pilate said, "So you are a king?" Jesus responded, "You say I am a king. Actually, I was born and came into the world to testify to the truth. All who love the truth recognize that what I say is true." - John 18:37

Frosbel, why are you ignoring the scriptures that say he pre-existed with God and that he is God?

Jesus is the express image of God. That is the closest we can get to knowing God.

page 1 so far
i will come back

This is a hard teaching..
Good points Tgirl

So frosbel who is Jesus who has been slain from the foundation of the world
May God help us

Giovanni Ponzi:

what a [size=35pt]GBAGAUN[/size]

C'mon... I was typing fast.

Tgirl4real:

You are simply contradicting yourself . . .

The first scripture, speaks of Jesus as a man with feelings, emotions, that can feel pain. He walked on earth as a man.

His mission on earth is to save mankind and show them the way to God. He humbled himself and none can proclaim him as majesty until he has been fully revealed. They didn't even recognise him as the Messiah - the saviour of the world who is to come. But the prophet of old saw ahead and proclaimed...

You don't expect him not to point people to God, his Father, who is the same as Him.

You are calling Jesus GOD which in itself is a contradiction of sorts.

1. If Jesus was GOD and the bible says God cannot be tempted, then the temptation in the wilderness was a prank.
2. If Jesus was GOD and GOD is 1 , it means GOD was 2/3 and not 1 when Jesus was on earth, something totally PAGAN and blasphemous.

Tgirl4real:

Frosbel, why are you ignoring the scriptures that say he pre-existed with God and that he is God?

Jesus is the express image of God. That is the closest we can get to knowing God.

image does not mean the same thing as a thing.

frosbel:

Only a Pharisee could have made the comment as per bolded, it borders on arrogance and pomposity.

Ignorance at its peak

frosbel:
My salvation lies in my belief that Jesus is the Messiah and not some PAGAN Myth called Trinity.

1. Messiah of what? If you dispute his ontology, nature and origin, then it is IMPOSSIBLE for Him to have saved you from anything, more or less, from the wrath of GOD.

2. What do u understand by messiah? what has He saved you from? How is able to do it, without the many attributes of His that you deny? How can He save you from the wrath of God if he aint like GOD? Why didn't John the baptist, Isiah, Elijah, Moses or Elisha take up the role as messiah?

3. There is no trinity doctrine. God the Father was revealed all through the old testament and He promised that there would a rebuilding of the relationship with God after it was broken. Here comes Jesus, a spirit being, Godlike and from eternity, who incarnates as the Son of God (just like angels are sons of God), but in this sense, he is the only begotten. Meaning He is God in nature, essence, being and personality but has humbled himself to be like one of His creations. The evidence of your salvation in Christ is depicted as the sending of the Holy Spirit to dwell in you, guide and counsel you as an heir of the Father. Nobody asked you to worship the trinity. Worship and Follow Jesus as He is the only way to the father.

[quote author=noetic16]

1. Messiah of what? If you dispute his ontology, nature and origin, then it is IMPOSSIBLE for Him to have saved you from anything, more or less, from the wrath of GOD

And where does it say in the bible , that we are to understand the ontology, nature and origin of Jesus as a pre-requisite to salvation

What utter nonsense !!

2. What do u understand by messiah? what has He saved you from? How is able to do it, without the many attributes of His that you deny? How can He save you from the wrath of God if he aint like GOD? Why didn't John the baptist, Isiah, Elijah, Moses or Elisha take up the role as messiah?

concerning his Son, who was descended from David according to the flesh - Romans 1:3

" This is the genealogy of Jesus the Messiah the son of David, the son of Abraham:" - Matthew 1:1

" But when the set time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law "- Galatians 4:4


Jesus is a direct descendant of DAVID. Open your eyes wide and meditate on these scripture.

3. There is no trinity doctrine.

There is, and it is PAGAN in it's entirety.

God the Father was revealed all through the old testament and He promised that there would a rebuilding of the relationship with God after it was broken. Here comes Jesus, a spirit being,

No Jesus was not a spirit being, he was a MAN, by denying he was fully MAN you are actually anti-christ.

who incarnates as the Son of God (just like angels are sons of God)

Incarnation is a pagan concept.

@frosbel

Your expositions on tithing and man-wrorship are grounded in the scriptures with solid logic to back up the points

This one on trinity I don't get

You believe yahweh, Jesus and Holy Spirit exists and live in heaven

So what's the issue on the trinity

frosbel:

image does not mean the same thing as a thing.

If you want us to go with this . . .

If you see an image of me in a photograph of me, is it me in the pix or not? Is the pix not the same as me, no?

You are using "image" as the same as "resemblance". That is not the case here brother.

No one sees God and lives, Jesus is not just a representative of the godhead on earth when he walked here, the bible says he is the express image of the Father, when you see him, you see God. And when he left, he sent us a comforter - in the Holy Spirit.

...Who [Jesus], being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: Philippians 2:6

I will let off here and allow you explian the verses I raised later.

And please don't forget to answer my question:

We know Adam is a man - flesh and blood

Angel Gabriel is an angel - a celestial being

What type of "being" is Jesus?

Is he a man, a glorified man, a demi-god, a god, a deity, an angel...

What is he exactly as the son of God?

And why is worship due to him and not due to any other crated being?

BTW, can we also look at the appearances God made to people like Moses and Abraham. When he had to reveal himself...

frosbel:
And where does it say in the bible , that we are to understand the ontology, nature and origin of Jesus as a pre-requisite to salvation grin

What utter nonsense !!

Is this a joke? can there be a more daft statement?
You dont know who Jesus is, but you believe he died for you? really?
You dont know who Jesus is, but you believe he connects / reconciles you to GOD? really?
You dont know who Jesus is, but you believe that you would see him in heaven when you die? really?
You dont know who Jesus is, but you believe that he lives in you? really?

You are either deluded or confused. I'd like to think that you are possessed by a lying spirit which preaches a strange gospel.

frosbel:
concerning his Son, who was descended from David according to the flesh - Romans 1:3

" This is the genealogy of Jesus the Messiah the son of David, the son of Abraham:" - Matthew 1:1

" But when the set time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law "- Galatians 4:4


Jesus is a direct descendant of DAVID. Open your eyes wide and meditate on these scripture.

So based on the above, what qualifies Jesus to die for anyone's sins then, if he is just a man like you claim?

There is, and it is PAGAN in it's entirety. grin

Dude, I said that there was no doctrine. This is not a denial of reality. There is a Godhead with three persons. God the Father (unrevealed), God the Son (revealed as Jesus Christ) and the God the Holy Spirit (revealed by Christ as another comforter to all those who believe in Him).

No Jesus was not a spirit being, he was a MAN, by denying he was fully MAN you are actually anti-christ.

You are the ANTI-CHRIST and son of SATAN

1. John 1 boldly asserts that He is God revealed in the flesh.

2. All the apostles in the new testament testify of His divinity.

3. The book of revelation reveals Him as the beginning and the end. Yet you delusively state that he is a mere man.

This shows that
1. You are NOT saved. Since the foundation of your supposed salvation is heresy and falsehood.

2. You are possessed by a lying spirit, who denies the very essence of Christian salvation, which is Christ himself.

3. As you do not believe in the teachings of Christ . . . .you are NOT a Christian.

Incarnation is a pagan concept.

is this a joke or what? So John 1 was written by pagans?

I laugh in german.

noetic16:

Ignorance at its peak



1. Messiah of what? If you dispute his ontology, nature and origin, then it is IMPOSSIBLE for Him to have saved you from anything, more or less, from the wrath of GOD.

2. What do u understand by messiah? what has He saved you from? How is able to do it, without the many attributes of His that you deny? How can He save you from the wrath of God if he aint like GOD? Why didn't John the baptist, Isiah, Elijah, Moses or Elisha take up the role as messiah?

3. There is no trinity doctrine. God the Father was revealed all through the old testament and He promised that there would a rebuilding of the relationship with God after it was broken. Here comes Jesus, a spirit being, Godlike and from eternity, who incarnates as the Son of God (just like angels are sons of God), but in this sense, he is the only begotten. Meaning He is God in nature, essence, being and personality but has humbled himself to be like one of His creations. The evidence of your salvation in Christ is depicted as the sending of the Holy Spirit to dwell in you, guide and counsel you as an heir of the Father. Nobody asked you to worship the trinity. Worship and Follow Jesus as He is the only way to the father.

Halleluyah!

[quote author=noetic16]

Is this a joke? can there be a more daft statement?
You dont know who Jesus is, but you believe he died for you? really?
You dont know who Jesus is, but you believe he connects / reconciles you to GOD? really?
You dont know who Jesus is, but you believe that you would see him in heaven when you die? really?
You dont know who Jesus is, but you believe that he lives in you? really?

I told you who Jesus is but you did not listen , He is the Son of GOD and Messiah.

Peter was asked the same question by Jesus void of any complex theological garbage, let's hear what he had to say :

"But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?" Peter answered, "You are the Messiah." - Mark 8:29

"Then Nathanael declared, "Rabbi, you are the Son of God; you are the king of Israel." - John 1:49


I am sure these MEN who lived nearer in time to Jesus knew what they were talking about.

So based on the above, what qualifies Jesus to die for anyone's sins then, if he is just a man like you claim?

He was the sinless Son of GOD , duh !!

Dude, I said that there was no doctrine. This is not a denial of reality. There is a Godhead with three persons. God the Father (unrevealed), God the Son (revealed as Jesus Christ) and the God the Holy Spirit (revealed by Christ as another comforter to all those who believe in Him).

3 Persons cannot be 1 person, engage your brain , except it is on sabbatical.

God is ONE Person, only the antichrist will try to split the singular person of GOD into a blasphemous 3.


There is only ONE God, and he is the ancient of Days.

1. John 1 boldly asserts that He is God revealed in the flesh.

revealed in the person of Jesus. English comprehension anyone ?

2. All the apostles in the new testament testify of His divinity.

False.

3. The book of revelation reveals Him as the beginning and the end. Yet you delusively state that he is a mere man.

Can God have a God ? Think, use your grey matter and stop these emotional tantrums, the way your are going a heart attack is very close.

It was your type that killed the prophets, that killed and murdered thousand of Christians who rejected your pagan myths.

I can feel the demonic rage seething from underneath your false veneer of religious profession, you need to repent !!

frosbel:
I told you who Jesus is but you did not listen , He is the Son of GOD and Messiah.

Peter was asked the same question by Jesus void of any complex theological garbage, let's hear what he had to say :

"But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?" Peter answered, "You are the Messiah." - Mark 8:29

"Then Nathanael declared, "Rabbi, you are the Son of God; you are the king of Israel." - John 1:49


I am sure these MEN who lived nearer in time to Jesus knew what they were talking about. smiley

You are using scriptures and jargons to cover up your blasphemy.
You said that

1. Jesus is NOT God but merely a man.

2. Jesus did NOT pre-exist prior to His human birth.

3. Jesus is not a part of the Godhead, hence no trinity.

These three assertions depict your ignorance of the personality of Jesus. They testify that you are also NOT saved. You only know biblical jargons and verses.

More importantly, if you deny the third person of the trinity (Holy Spirit), what assurance then do you have that you are truly a child of God? Since you cant see Jesus physically (He died 2000 years ago), who assures you then that you live in Christ and He lives in you?

He was the sinless Son of GOD , duh !!

In what way was He sinless? He healed people on the sabbath day Luke 13: 10-17, thus breaking the law of moses. His disciples also plucked food to eat on the sabbath day, again violating the laws of moses.
So tell me, how did your own Jesus, who was a mere man (according to you) become sinless, since He had violated the sabath day?

3 Persons cannot be 1 person, engage your brain , except it is on sabbatical.

God is ONE Person, only the antichrist will try to split the singular person of GOD into a blasphemous 3.

There is only ONE God, and he is the ancient of Days.

Your rant is acceptable if you accept that you are NOT a Christian.

Jesus came from of the bossom of the Father, to reconcile us with the Father, and as evidence of our salvation, He gave us the holy spirit to comfort and counsel us. Yet, you deny the divinity and pre-existence of Jesus and also deny the existence of the Holy Spirit. This leads to only one conclusion, you are NOT saved, you dont know Jesus and you are possessed by a lying spirit.

revealed in the person of Jesus. English comprehension anyone ? wink

I could not make sense of this. whats your point?

Can God have a God ? Think, use your grey matter and stop these emotional tantrums, the way your are going a heart attack is very close.

It was your type that killed the prophets, that killed and murdered thousand of Christians who rejected your pagan myths.

I can feel the demonic rage seething from underneath your false veneer of religious profession, you need to repent !!

1. These childish rant can ONLY come from an atheist who WALKS BY SIGHT and not by faith. How can you rationally understand God, except through faith in what has been revealed and more revelations from the Holy Spirit?

2. Jesus submitted to the will of the Father, none the less being GOD himself (Philippians 2:6, John 1)

3. What should I repent of? repent of rejecting your blasphemy?

4. You dont know Jesus, You dont know the Father, you dont the holy spirit. You are NOT saved but is possessed by a lying spirit sent to distort the church.

5. You cannot be saved and continue to utter the abominations that you do utter.

^^^^

Until the veil is removed from your eyes , hopefully when you humble yourself and get rid of anger , you will continue to believe in a pagan myth which can be found nowhere in scripture.

You have denied the 100% humanity of Christ and therefore antichrist.

Only Satan could have invented such a fallacious fiction which gullible people like you fall for.

Stop this subjective rage and commit yourself to a thorough search of scriptures to find the truth ,for now ,you remain deceived .

frosbel: ^^^^

Until the veil is removed from your eyes , hopefully when you humble yourself and get rid of anger , you will continue to believe in a pagan myth which can be found nowhere in scripture.

So pagans wrote the scriptures, right?

You have denied the 100% humanity of Christ and therefore antichrist.

Really? where did I deny His coming in the flesh? Jesus died on the cross, as a man of faith purged of His divinity.
You are the satanist who denies that Jesus has a pre-existence as God the Son.

Only Satan could have invented such a fallacious fiction which gullible people like you fall for.

Stop this subjective rage and commit yourself to a thorough search of scriptures to find the truth ,for now ,you remain deceived .

can anyone make sense of this rant?

@ frosbel

Titus 3:5

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Yet you deny the Holy Spirit, how then can you claim to be saved?

^^^

Calm down and stop running your mouth before thinking.

The Holy Spirit is God's spirit , I am not sure what is so difficult to comprehend here.

God created the world through his spirit , raised Jesus his Son from the dead by his spirit and regenerates fallen mankind through his spirit .

The Holy Spirit is not a separate person from God.

noetic16:

So pagans wrote the scriptures, right?



Really? where did I deny His coming in the flesh? Jesus died on the cross, as a man of faith purged of His divinity.
You are the satanist who denies that Jesus has a pre-existence as God the Son.



can anyone make sense of this rant?

The Trinity is an evolved doctrine , it is foreign to scripture , except your scripture is the Hindu bible.

God is ONE person , get it ?

frosbel: ^^^

Calm down and stop running your mouth before thinking.

The Holy Spirit is God's spirit , I am not sure what is so difficult to comprehend here.

God created the world through his spirit , raised Jesus his Son from the dead by his spirit and regenerates fallen mankind through his spirit .

The Holy Spirit is not a separate person from God.

Please tell me more .. . .

noetic16:

Please tell me more .. . .

God is Spirit , those who worship him must do so in spirit and truth.

The Spirit of GOD is God himself in action, in creation, salvation , revelation etc.

"But it was to us that God revealed these things by his Spirit. For his Spirit searches out everything and shows us God's deep secrets." - 1 Corinthians 2:10

Notice the bolded singular pronouns used to reinforce the truth that this is not 3 persons in the plural but one person.

God is an individual , indivisive and singular in being. To divide him into 3 separate beings is PAGAN to the utmost.

rubbish . . . I will give you a compiled list of verses that define the person of the Holy Spirit in a bit.

But before then, you mentioned that Jesus did not pre-exist, yet in John 17:5, He reminds the father of the glory that they both shared before the world was created.

5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

noetic16: rubbish . . . I will give you a compiled list of verses that define the person of the Holy Spirit in a bit.

But before then, you mentioned that Jesus did not pre-exist, yet in John 17:5, He reminds the father of the glory that they both shared before the world was created.

5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

And we also pre-existed before the world began.

Ephesians 1:4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love