Many self-proffessing christians readily claim that once a person dies in the Lord, he readily goes to heaven, yet they still believe in ressurection of the dead. some say both happens, but how can that be?

assuming one dies and goes to heaven, what will be ressurected since the person is already in heaven?

no doubt this is one of the most controversial subjects facing christiandom today.

No where in the old testament was the reward of obidience to God--- a place in Heaven. Jesus even clarified this in John 3vs13 "no one has ascended into heaven but He who came down from it", john 11vs25 "I am the ressurection and life, he who believes in me, though he may die, but he shall live". yet he made refrences to the kingdom of heaven in his numerous parables. God is definitely not the author of confusion, but if Jesus said this, where then is David, abraham, elijah, enoch, Moses and other prophets of old including the apostles of Christ?.

Job pondered in job14vs14, " if a man dies, shall he live again?", he answers himself in verses 14 and 15.
revelation20 gives a vivid account of a ressurrection and that Christ will reign on planet earth for a thousand years, with the saved.
yet our pastors and preachers teach of a reign in heaven.

sincerely, what do you think, do the dead in Christ go to heaven or await ressurection?

@noetic,

Let me give you a simple answer. If you really seek for more understanding, you will check out the Bible in depth to check out what I now present as the truth.

Indeed, a Christian who dies now goes straight to Heaven. Paul said "to be absent in the body is to be present with the Lord." the Lord there being refernce to Jesus who is in heaven.

With regards to the resurrection, what happens to believers that are already dead is that there bodies will be raised up as well. This is one of the uniquneness of the Christian faith. Ours is the only one that teaches about the resurrection of our bodies. so you see, there is no controversy at all, except in the minds of those who lack this knowledge.

@tayo-D

your last paragraph was contradictory. if the dead is in heaven, y ressurect the body again?
I am raising this issue that we may learn and abide by the truth.

apostle paul wrote in 1corth15:22-23 "for as in adam all die, even so in christ all shall be made alive, but each in his own order, Christ the firsth fruit and they that are His at His coming" what does that imply?

Rev20:4-5 " they came to life and reigned with christ for a thousand years" verse 11  mentions a great white throne judgement. in verse 12"and I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God and books were opened. And another book was opened which was the book of life. and the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the book"

notice that the bible kept calling them dead, because that is their state before the judgement.

Noetic, Tayo-D's response is a good and biblically sound one.

noetic:

@tayo-D

your last paragraph was contradictory. if the dead is in heaven, y ressurect the body again?
I am raising this issue that we may learn and abide by the truth.

apostle paul wrote in 1corth15:22-23 "for as in adam all die, even so in christ all shall be made alive, but each in his own order, Christ the firsth fruit and they that are His at His coming" what does that imply?

Rev20:4-5 " they came to life and reigned with christ for a thousand years" verse 11  mentions a great white throne judgement. in verse 12"and I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God and books were opened. And another book was opened which was the book of life. and the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the book"

notice that the bible kept calling them dead, because that is their state before the judgement.

1Cor15:21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him

  It implies just what it says. Christ was the first ever to resurrect and never die (firstfruit), and so it'll be for "those who belong to Him"

@noetic,

your last paragraph was contradictory. if the dead is in heaven, y ressurect the body again?

Because they are in heaven without their bodies. Do the body of dead saints dissapear as soon as they die? Absolutely not. There bodies are here while their spirirts are with the Lord. That's why paul said they are absent in the body but present with the Lord. there is a separation at death, but there is a reuniting at the ressurection.

I am raising this issue that we may learn and abide by the truth.

You are yet to provide any truth.

apostle paul wrote in 1corth15:22-23 "for as in adam all die, even so in christ all shall be made alive, but each in his own order, Christ the firsth fruit and they that are His at His coming" what does that imply?

There is a lot of meaning to this. the primary issue it is dealing with is the concept of righteousness.

Rev20:4-5 " they came to life and reigned with christ for a thousand years" verse 11 mentions a great white throne judgement. in verse 12"and I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God and books were opened. And another book was opened which was the book of life. and the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the book"

You are muddling so many things up. These are two groups of people you are talking about. The White Throne Judgement is meant only for unblievers and the earlier group does not come to the judgment. Every believer will receive their rewards at the Judgement Seat of Christ. See, your problem is that you need to arrange everything chronologically before you can see the full picture. In the mean time you have muddled up so many events and have thus confused yourself.

notice that the bible kept calling them dead, because that is their state before the judgement.

You know what death means? It only refers to a separation! When you die, your spirit is separated from your body. When Adam died in the Garden, his spirit was separated from God. Death only means separation. Apply that truth to the reading of those passages and you will receive more enlightenment.

@Jesoul,

1Cor15:21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him
It implies just what it says. Christ was the first ever to resurrect and never die (firstfruit), and so it'll be for "those who belong to Him"

Well, Christ rose up on the third day with His body. The body of other believers are still in the grave. So the resurrection is not complete until the boy and the spirit are reunited.

you are muddling things up and u didnt answer my question.

If you are already in heaven in spirit, why then do u need your physical body in heaven?
comparing the ressurection of Jesus to ours is ok. but note that Jesus was in spirit form from the beginning.(this is confirmed in the hebrew bible, where the creation was done by Elohim the plural name for God in genesis 1) it was His decision to die for mankind that made him come in flesh. this implies that dominion in heaven has always been in spirit. tha father, the son and the spirit plus the hosts of heaven have always been in spirit.

John 3vs13 Jesus said"no one has gone into heaven, except the Son of man that came down from it"

when apostle peter was explaining the concept and intrigues of Christs ressurection, to convince the isrealites about the realities of Jesus ressurection, he made startling revealations. lets examine them.
Acts2vs29-34
29"Brothers, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day. 30But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne. 31Seeing what was ahead, he spoke of the resurrection of the Christ,[a] that he was not abandoned to the grave, nor did his body see decay. 32God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of the fact. 33Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. , 34For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said
   " 'The Lord said to my Lord:
      "Sit at my right hand

notice the last verse david did not ascend into heaven. tayo-d where is david?

again to butress what I said earlier on, that the state of everyone before judgement is death. In john5:28, Jesus said "Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice". This readily implies that on the day of judgement the state of all is dead.

you made refrence to apostle paul. true he said in phillipians1:23-24 that "I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; 24but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body."

he said this because as David also confirmed, once u re dead, u loose all sense of time, the next phase you know is judgement. also check ecclesiatess9:5 "For the living know that they will die,
       but the dead know nothing;
       they have no further reward,
       and even the memory of them is forgotten.

Paul re-affirmed this in 1thessalonians4:16 that "16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first."

and when he finished his good work i.e when he knew his time was up he said in 2timothy4:6-7 "6For I am already being poured out like a drink offering, and the time has come for my departure. 7I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 8Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, [b]will award to me on that day—[/b]and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing"

notice that he said on that day, and not immediately I die.

like I said, this is not an antheist or anti-Christian idea or provocation, I am a born again Christian, I only want us to know the truth and abide by it.

@noetic,

like I said, this is not an antheist or anti-Christian idea or provocation, I am a born again Christian, I only want us to know the truth and abide by it.

I am in no way doubting your faith. I understand the need not to just accept the common belief as truth without searching the scriptures one-self to validate its veracity or otherwise. That being said, let me now address your concerns.

you are muddling things up and u didnt answer my question.

Maybe you need to meditate on the things I said. I didn't just provide answers but provided the promptings for you to arrive at the answers. That way, you will know the truth yourself and not just saying what others have said.

If you are already in heaven in spirit, why then do u need your physical body in heaven? comparing the ressurection of Jesus to ours is ok.

Perhaps you need to ask Jesus this question too. If He is really spirit that He is, 'because the Bible tells us God is spirit, why then did he resurrect with His physical body? Why doesn't He just get ried of it once and for all? Anyway, the anser is partly what I have shared with you before. It is sin, through death that causes the separation of the body from the spirit and at the resurrection, the effect of sin will be totally undone and a reconcialiation of the body and spirit will take place.

but note that Jesus was in spirit form from the beginning.(this is confirmed in the hebrew bible, where the creation was done by Elohim the plural name for God in genesis 1) it was His decision to die for mankind that made him come in flesh. this implies that dominion in heaven has always been in spirit. tha father, the son and the spirit plus the hosts of heaven have always been in spirit.

While your statement is true, it does not take a way the fact that Jesus cannot be separated from His physical body today. This is one of the greatest truth that Christains do not even focus on. That the form of our God is that of man. When Jesus rose from the dead, he wasn't in the form of a spirit. He was flesh and bones.  Luke 24:39 - Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

John 3vs13 Jesus said"no one has gone into heaven, except the Son of man that came down from it"

That is true until His resurrection from the dead when the dead saints who were seen in Jerusalem ascended up with Him to heaven. This is another related truth which will require a separate thread to deal with. In any case, the New Testament teaches that the Spirits of just men made perfect are now in heaven. Hebrews 12:23 - To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

when apostle peter was explaining the concept and intrigues of Christs ressurection, to convince the isrealites about the realities of Jesus ressurection, he made startling revealations. lets examine them.
Acts2vs29-34
29"Brothers, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day. 30But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne. 31Seeing what was ahead, he spoke of the resurrection of the Christ,[a] that he was not abandoned to the grave, nor did his body see decay. 32God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of the fact. 33Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. , 34For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said
   " 'The Lord said to my Lord:
      "Sit at my right hand
notice the last verse david did not ascend into heaven. tayo-d where is david?

Well, there are 2 things to take note of from your statement in bold above. The first is that Peter's reference that David did not ascend to heaven is actually in reference to the fact that David never went to heaven at the time he received the revelation. Please read the passage again. Secondly, I have shown you already above that the spirits of just men who are made perfect are now in heaven. Let me explain this a little further for you.

Before the ascension of Jesus, dead saints were rested in what jesus refers to as Abraham's bossom. They could not go to heaven despite the fact that they were justified spirits. Their spirits had to be made perfect. Paul mentioned that these men could not be made perfect without the Church - Hebrews 11:40 - God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.  So you see, these men's spirits were made perfect when the church came into existence and as such were taken up to heaven with Jesus after his resurrection. That explains why they are on the role call in heaven as I showed in Hebrews 12:23 above.

I'll continue with my answers subsequently. I don't want my responses to be too long for the sake of easy reading.

@noetic,

you made refrence to apostle paul. true he said in phillipians1:23-24 that "I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; 24but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body."

he said this because as David also confirmed, once u re dead, u loose all sense of time, the next phase you know is judgement. also check ecclesiatess9:5 "For the living know that they will die,
but the dead know nothing;
they have no further reward,
and even the memory of them is forgotten.

Paul re-affirmed this in 1thessalonians4:16 that "16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first."

and when he finished his good work i.e when he knew his time was up he said in 2timothy4:6-7 "6For I am already being poured out like a drink offering, and the time has come for my departure. 7I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 8Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day—and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing"

notice that he said on that day, and not immediately I die.

You've said so many things here that it is hard to figure out your point. Please do me a favour. Kindly list out what you are trying to discuss. I guess one of it is that a dead person loses all consciousness before the judgment day. Kindly make those salient points - leave out scriptures for now, then we will tackle them one after the other.

Gentlemen, your discussions have been interesting. I'd initially wanted to weigh in at some point, but thought it would be more interesting to watch the discussion progress and let my teachers enrich our knowledge!

Well done - and please keep the gist spirited!

@ Noetic

I am with you on this.

The biblical fact is that those who die in Christ sleep until the resurrection. There can be no spiritual resurrection as others are saying. That is an oxymoron.

Let the bible do the talking. Sometimes its easy for us to have the tendency to quote a text that seems to say what in fact its not saying, and what we desire it to say. A lot of Christians tend to quote what Paul said without fully coming to a thorough understanding of what Paul really meant by the statement. A famous text used to support the argument that when a Christian dies they immediately go straight to heaven is this:-

2 Corinthians 5:8 says We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

This text in no way even remotely suggests that a Christian goes to heaven upon dying. If we read the entire passage leading up to this verse, we will see without a doubt that Paul was making a contrast between having to suffer with this mortal or earthly body, and otherwise called house in the passage, and the hope of one day possessing that heavenly body. The phrase used by him is ", willing rather to be absent from the body"

The phrase suggests a desire or strong wish to be present with the Lord now.

Now if we compare Pauline writings we would logically see that the above verse in 2 Corinthians 5:8 as interpreted by some to mean an immediate resurrection to heaven after death, albeit invisibly, would be a contradiction of other passages dealing with the subject of life after death. Listen as Paul comments:

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 say, 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Noticed what Paul said? Those Christians who are alive when Jesus comes will not "prevent them which are asleep" If those who had died in Christ had already gone to heaven, then why would Paul even think about making such a remark? This confirms what Jesus' response to the disciples was, when He said to them that Lazarus "sleepeth" when He Jesus knew that Lazarus had already died. Jesus deliberately used sleep to explain what exactly death was for the Christian. It was merely a sleep with the hope of waking up in the resurrection morning. It cannot be anything else.

Noticed what Paul said in this part of the verse, ? ", so shall we ever be with the Lord"

Our being with the Lord would have taken place after the resurrection, and not at or after death.

What happens when a person dies according to scriptures?
"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it." Ecclesiastes 12:7.

What is the "spirit" that returns to God at death?
"The body without the spirit ["breath," see margin] is dead." James 2:26

"The spirit of God ["the breath which God gave him," see margin] is in my nostrils." Job 27:3.

So in essence the spirit is the breath of life. That same spirit or breath of life was first placed in Adam's nostrils. According to scriptures when a person dies, including a Christian, his body returns to the earth or dust, and his spirit goes back to God. None of these passages remotely suggests that some how these spirits are conscious or aware of what is taking place on earth.

Satan from the garden of Eden first suggested to Eve that disobeying God would not surely result in death. He somehow convinced her, as he has done millions today, that no one really dies when they die. Some how their departed spirit is alive.

@Bobbyaf,

You have missed the whole gist of the text you quoted and rested your persuasion on an insignificant qualifier!

Bobbyaf:

A famous text used to support the argument that when a Christian dies they immediately go straight to heaven is this:-

2 Corinthians 5:8 says We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

This text in no way even remotely suggests that a Christian goes to heaven upon dying. If we read the entire passage leading up to this verse, we will see without a doubt that Paul was making a contrast between having to suffer with this mortal or earthly body, and otherwise called house in the passage, and the hope of one day possessing that heavenly body. The phrase used by him is ", willing rather to be absent from the body"

The gist of Apostle Paul's statement is not weighted against the word "rather". That word simply expresses his desire to be more inclined to departing and being with the Lord - the same Lord who is in heaven!

The "departing" was not something that was pointing to the future, as if Paul had not departed already! So your idea that it expresses "the hope of one day possessing that heavenly body" is simply reading your own personal persuasion into the text!

When you compare scripture with scripture, you find that believers who "depart" have left the body (expressing death); but they are with the Lord. That is simply what the text teaches! Unless you have atext to show that "departed" saints are still in their bodies in the grave, your idea here does not hold any substance at all.

So that we make no mistakes in what Paul was saying, please read the parallel thought expressed in his epistle to the Philippians:

Php 1:23
For I am in a strait betwixt two,
having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ;
which is far better.

Here, there is no such word as "RATHER", for I have pointed out already the fact that the weight of his statement in 2 Corinthians 5:8 does not rest on the word "rather". Paul was confident that when he departed his body, he was not going to remain in that same body in the grave! The body decomposes - but just where would Paul be while this decomposition is taking place? He already gave the answer in those two verses we just read!

Of course, we know what Paul meant by his "departure", for he spoke about it in 2 Tim. 4:6 -- "For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand". Just what exactly did Paul mean by this? Did he mean the same thing as you intoned earlier -- "the hope of one day possessing that heavenly body"?? Was Paul waiting for "one day" to come in the FUTURE before he could depart?!?

Please carefully compare scripture with scripture and seek to understand the context of what the apostle taught before resting your persuasions on a small word - such as "rather".

Shalom.

It is good to know that this subject is raising spiritual awareness amongst us all.

The issue is do the dead in Christ go to heaven or await ressurection? infact it means Has anyone of the dead in Christ recieved God`s promise of eternal life yet?

I think that there have been lots of misconception about it all, and it basically has to do with our individual interpretation or insight into certain scriptures.

but first let us examine why Xtians believe that a dead person in Christ goes straight to heaven.

1. Elijah was taken to heaven. but ask yourself was Elijah taken to heaven?
2. Enoch was taken to heaven. but was enoch taken to heaven?

but first what and where is heaven?.
a). Heaven is the dwelling place of God (deut26vs15). but God has been existing before the creation of Heaven and its contents. Genesis1vs1 records the creation of heaven. since the bible never recorded that God has a begining, it is safe to say that Heaven was not created out of the desire of God to have a dwelling place.
b)Heaven is anywhere outside the physical realm of planet earth. it includes the moon, stars and planets. this is attested to in Psalm8vs3 " When I consider your heavens, the work of your fingers, the moon and the stars, which you have set in place. it is butressed in Gen26vs4, deut1vs10 and isiah13vs10.

now the question was Elijah taken heaven, since Jesus said in John3vs13 that "no one has gone into heaven, except He that came out of it"? where then did Elijah go? 2 kings2vs11 "As they were walking along and talking together, suddenly a chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind"
but where was Elijah taken to? while many of us felt he was taken to God`s dwelling place, his prophets knew otherwise in verses 16 and 17, they set search parties of about 50 strong men to look for Elijah, thinking the chariots whirlwind had thrown him up on a mountain. but all in no avail they didnt find him. but Elijah did not go to heaven. y?
the last record of Elijah`s transaction happened during the reign of king ahaziah in 2 kings chapter1. Elisha takes over, and his reign corresponds with king jehosaphat who was suceeded jehoram several years later. now read "2chronicles21:12-15". Elijah sent Jehoram a letter warning him of his sins. that proves he was still alive and on earth. my guess is he died since the bible says in hebrews9vs27 "it is appointed for men to die once"

@ Tayo-D

you still havent answered the questions I posed to you. where is David? consideing the revealations of peter and Jesus.
and you also used three lovely scriptural refrences out of context.
luke24:39 simply tells you that as followers of Christ, His form of ressurection (the spirit and the body in whole) is what we will expirience, not now but until then.
hebrews12:23 "to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the judge of all men, to the spirits of righteous men made perfect," their names are written in heaven, but they are not in heaven.
Hebrews11vs40 refers to all the goodies of life. perhaps to help you comprehend my point of view. ask yourself what was the purpose of heaven and earth? God`s idea of eternal life? but consider the creation and the garden of eden in your thoughts.

@bobbyaf

@

Bobbyaf:


Satan from the garden of Eden first suggested to Eve that disobeying God would not surely result in death. He somehow convinced her, as he has done millions today, that no one really dies when they die. Some how their departed spirit is alive.

I feel u

What was God`s plan for adam and eve? his plan was that they dwell on earth, have dominion, be fruitful and multiply, never to taste death till all of eternity. Satan stole that by deception.

there was no passage plan for men to transform from death to eternal life, cos death was not in the plan of God for man. Now that Jesus has redeemed us, those of us who know him and lived before, during and after his coming are all awaiting the promise of eternal life. hebrews11:39 "All these people are known for their faith, but none of them received what God had promised"

@pilgrim

pilgrim.1:

@Bobbyaf,

Of course, we know what Paul meant by his "departure", for he spoke about it in 2 Tim. 4:6 -- "For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand". Just what exactly did Paul mean by this? Did he mean the same thing as you intoned earlier -- "the hope of one day possessing that heavenly body"?? Was Paul waiting for "one day" to come in the FUTURE before he could depart?!?

Please carefully compare scripture with scripture and seek to understand the context of what the apostle taught before resting your persuasions on a small word - such as "rather".

Shalom.

2 timothy4vs7 confirms that Paul was waiting for that day!

@neotic,

noetic:

@pilgrim
2 timothy4vs7 confirms that Paul was waiting for that day!

Please confirm:

2 Timothy 4:7
I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith.

I guess the verse you were looking for was the very next one, verse 8 -

2 Timothy 4:8
Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord,
the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto
all them also that love his appearing.

Now notice carefully:

(a) Paul's reference to his "departure" is NOT the same thing as his expectation of the reward!

(b) his "departure" happened in the past (v. 6); the "reward" is in the future (v. 8).

(c) there is a huge difference between these two:

~ "the time of my departure is at hand" (v. 6)

~ "the righteous judge, shall give me at that day" (v. 8)

Please keep these things in clear perspective and try not to assume issues before you draw a conclusion.

I'll try and watch developments and then come back to share what you really are missing in assuming that the departed saints are in their graves.

Cheers.

@pilgrim

pilgrim.1:

@neotic,

Please confirm:

2 Timothy 4:7
I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith.

I guess the verse you were looking for was the very next one, verse 8 -

2 Timothy 4:8
Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord,
the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto
all them also that love his appearing.

Now notice carefully:

(a) Paul's reference to his "departure" is NOT the same thing as his expectation of the reward!

(b) his "departure" happened in the past (v. 6); the "reward" is in the future (v. 8).

(c) there is a huge difference between these two:

~ "the time of my departure is at hand" (v. 6)

~ "the righteous judge, shall give me at that day" (v. 8)

Please keep these things in clear perspective and try not to assume issues before you draw a conclusion.

I'll try and watch developments and then come back to share what you really are missing in assuming that the departed saints are in their graves.

Cheers.

u have said it all!

his departure is at hand ^{he is dying or death is near}

his reward is in the future _{judgement day}

no be so?
cheers

@topic,

Pilgrim1, thanks for your contributions. Maybe your bility to articulate things better will help drive the points home better than I could.

@bobbyaf and noetic,

I am kinda busy now, but will find some time to come back and address the points you made. In the mean time, pilgrim1 has done a good job trying to set your thinking straight.

Like Shwazenegger, I'll be back!!!!!!!!

Tayo-D:

@topic,

Pilgrim1, thanks for your contributions. Maybe your bility to articulate things better will help drive the points home better than I could.

@bobbyaf and noetic,

I am kind of busy now, but will find some time to come back and address the points you made. In the mean time, pilgrim1 has done a good job trying to set your thinking straight.

Like Shwazenegger, I'll be back!!!!!!!!

I will be gladly waiting

I want to commend the boldness of my friend, Noetic, for openly airing this seemingly enigmatic doctrine in the Church. However, we need to rightly divide the Word of truth. We need to know that God places a high premium on the death of the Righteous. Psalm 116:15 declares that
                           "precious in the sight of the Lord is the death of His saints"

When a Christain dies, he goes directly without any hindrance to the presence of Christ in Heaven. Before I kick on, I observe that one is treading the path of error and doctrinal heresy if personal or private interpretation is employed in expounding the sacred Scriptures. Let us stay glued to the truth of the WORD however illogical it may appeal to our finite minds.

Thousands of years ago, a man of God, Asaph, was discouraged when he saw the prosperity of the wicked and he wanted to know the hope of the Righteous. He then marched to the Sanctuary of the Lord and the Spirit of the Lord assured him what would become of him after death. Listen to his testimony in Psalm 73:23-24
    " Nevertheless I am continually with thee (God): thou hast holden me by my right hand. Thou shalt guide me with thy counsel (His Word and His Spirit), and afterward receive me to glory"  Asaph knew that he would be translated into His Glory after death. The Bible says Christ in you; the hope of glory.

There are sufficient incontestable and incontrovertible evidence(s), in the New Testament, that fortify the fact that Christains enter into rest immediately after death. I am going to give at least 5 facts to demonstrate this.I will be back shortly to do this. Bro Noetic, I am challenging you to reconsider your stance that Elijah was seen somewhere  within the coast of Israel some years  after his rapture.  Elijah actually went to Heaven after his rapture. The answer to your confusion is in 2 King  1:17-18. Read that and come to the house to apologise. Always try to have copious empirical facts before theorising your hypothesis.
   
Cheer

Thank God for scriptural references. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 say it all as was already quoted. But let me quote it again.


1 Thes. 4:15-17
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

In other words the living righteous will not procede those saints that have died.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

The righteous dead will rise as complete persons. This happens when the same spirit that departed their bodies upon death returns to their now glorified bodies. Paul didn't say that those who went to heaven will rise first. What is so difficult to understand about someone dying or sleeping in the grave awaiting the resurrection?

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Paul makes it abundantly clear that its only after the resurrection that the resurrected saints, along with the living ones, will be with the Lord.

Daniel 12:2
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Here nothing is mentioned by the prophet about anyone going to heaven before the resurrection. One cannot spiritualize what is meant to be practical applications of scriptures.

Jesus never promised Christians heaven after they died. The New Testament plainly says that of the faithful men and women who had gone before, such spiritual giants as Noah, Abraham, Sarah, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph and Moses, to name some of those listed in Hebrews 11—not one has ascended to heaven. In fact, says verse 39 of Hebrews 11, "These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised" (NIV).

So my question to all those who continue to teach this doctrine, is this. What exactly goes to heaven when anyone dies? Isn't it the spirit of man that goes back to God who gave it in accordance with scriptures? Is this spirit a person? Is it aware of what God has done? Absolutely not! The "spirit" is the breath of life, or the active life force that keeps mankind and animals alive until their death.

The bible clearly teaches that when we die we cease to know anything. All our thoughts and emotions go to the grave with us. The patriarch Job echoes Solomon's words. He writes: ". . . Man dies and is laid away; indeed he breathes his last and where is he? As water disappears from the sea, and a river becomes parched and dries up, so man lies down and does not rise. Till the heavens are no more, they will not awake nor be roused from their sleep" (Job 14:10-12).

The promise of life after death is attached to the reality of Christ's resurrection. It is because He was resurrected that one day we too will be. That is what we look forward to as Christians. I am not the least interested in the thought that when I die I will precede those Christians who are still alive down here.

Bobbyaf:

Thank God for scriptural references. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 say it all as was already quoted. But let me quote it again.


1 Thes. 4:15-17
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

In other words the living righteous will not procede those saints that have died.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

The righteous dead will rise as complete persons. This happens when the same spirit that departed their bodies upon death returns to their now glorified bodies. Paul didn't say that those who went to heaven will rise first. What is so difficult to understand about someone dying or sleeping in the grave awaiting the resurrection?

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Paul makes it abundantly clear that its only after the resurrection that the resurrected saints, along with the living ones, will be with the Lord.

Daniel 12:2
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Here nothing is mentioned by the prophet about anyone going to heaven before the resurrection. One cannot spiritualize what is meant to be practical applications of scriptures.

Jesus never promised Christians heaven after they died. The New Testament plainly says that of the faithful men and women who had gone before, such spiritual giants as Noah, Abraham, Sarah, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph and Moses, to name some of those listed in Hebrews 11—not one has ascended to heaven. In fact, says verse 39 of Hebrews 11, "These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised" (NIV).

So my question to all those who continue to teach this doctrine, is this. What exactly goes to heaven when anyone dies? Isn't it the spirit of man that goes back to God who gave it in accordance with scriptures? Is this spirit a person? Is it aware of what God has done? Absolutely not! The "spirit" is the breath of life, or the active life force that keeps mankind and animals alive until their death.

The bible clearly teaches that when we die we cease to know anything. All our thoughts and emotions go to the grave with us. The patriarch Job echoes Solomon's words. He writes: ". . . Man dies and is laid away; indeed he breathes his last and where is he? As water disappears from the sea, and a river becomes parched and dries up, so man lies down and does not rise. Till the heavens are no more, they will not awake nor be roused from their sleep" (Job 14:10-12).

The promise of life after death is attached to the reality of Christ's resurrection. It is because He was resurrected that one day we too will be. That is what we look forward to as Christians. I am not the least interested in the thought that when I die I will precede those Christians who are still alive down here.

U have said it all,

I think the problem is, many dont want to question what they have been fed. that way they miss the point.
We both have with biblibical intonations explained this issue to them, its apparent that their arguments, so far is presumed on logic, which should not be. its unfortunate!

cheers

trumpeter:

There are sufficient incontestable and incontrovertible evidence(s), in the New Testament, that fortify the fact that Christains enter into rest immediately after death. I am going to give at least 5 facts to demonstrate this.I will be back shortly to do this.

please provide this evidences that we may learn from you.

trumpeter:

Bro Noetic, I am challenging you to reconsider your stance that Elijah was seen somewhere within the coast of Israel some years after his rapture. Elijah actually went to Heaven after his rapture. The answer to your confusion is in 2 King 1:17-18. Read that and come to the house to apologise. Always try to have copious empirical facts before theorising your hypothesis.

Cheer

I have re-read that part of the scripture, and cant see anything new to it from what I earlier said. please lay emphasis on whatever u think I missed there.

cheers

Hehe. .@Bobbyaf,

There's just one reason why I keep holding back instead of rushing answers to the subject. But let me point out something and then ask you two simple questions:

Bobbyaf:


16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

The righteous dead will rise as complete persons. This happens when the same spirit that departed their bodies upon death returns to their now glorified bodies. Paul didn't say that those who went to heaven will rise first. What is so difficult to understand about someone dying or sleeping in the grave awaiting the resurrection?

Two questions:

(a) If the spirit departs the body at death, where does that spirit go?

(b) If the spirit is still in the grave at death, then from where does it RETURN?

You have always assumed that the dead in Christ are still in the grave - which would mean that they never left their bodies (or "departed" their bodies). If their spirits did not depart their bodies to go to some other place, then you would definitely not be speaking of the RETURN of those spirits to their (glorified) bodies! (How can you "depart" and yet "remain" at the same place, so that you can "return" when you never went anywhere else?)

Now, as you seek answers to those questions, the simple issue in all your argument would be simply this: please find out WHERE those spirits went upon departing their bodies!

@bobbyaf,

The biblical fact is that those who die in Christ sleep until the resurrection. There can be no spiritual resurrection as others are saying. That is an oxymoron.   

LOL . . . what do you want to do about Paul’s statements in Eph. 2:6? You (your spirit) were dead (verse 1). [Death here being a separation from the life of God rather than a dissolution of the entity. In other words, we still retained our spirits even though the bible calls it dead. But in the sense that the spirit has lost its ability to communicate with God and exude his life, then it was dead.] The same (dead) spirit was ‘made alive’ and then ‘raised up with Christ’. Even now, positionally, you’ve been raised up and are seated above all rule and authority.

Understanding the nature of man and the process of death, one would realize that death is merely the departure of the spirit of man FROM the body. This is very clear from scripture. The spirit does not cease to exist; it only ceases to remain in the body. This statement is true regardless of the spiritual condition of the man, whether righteous or unrighteous. What differs between those two groups is their destination. The other factor that plays into the debate is as regards righteous men of old – those issues have been addressed.

There are many scriptures that show that spirits continue to exist and are self-aware subsequent to death. The story of the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 18:19, Jesus’ response to the Saduccees in Mark 12: 24-27 and so on.

The nature of man
In Paul’s writings, this same fact that the spirit of man is a distinct entity which is clearly conscious, perceptive and aware of its surroundings is also evident.
Phil. 1:22-24
If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body.
We see Paul saying “if I am to live IN the body”. What is the ‘I’ that is mentioned 6 times in 3 verses? Is it not the spirit of the man Paul? The spirit or the inner man is the REAL man, the body is just a “tent” for the spirit, and the soul is merely the seat of (self) consciousness – sort of a ‘co-ordinator’ or ‘mediator’ between the spiritual and the physical.

2Cor. 12:2
I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows.
If the experience could have been an “out-of-body” experience, in which case it would involve the spirit of the man being taken to the third heaven, then it should be fairly obvious that the spirit is a conscious, perceptive entity rather than a mere breath. As he later said in that passage, he “heard” many things, showing perception. And he was warned not to say some of those things, showing memory. These are all attributes that the spirit of man can exhibit, just like the body making use of the CNS can. That’s why Paul said he was not sure whether it was in the body or out of it, for – we can assume – it seemed to make no difference to him.

The same was true of John.
Rev. 4: 1-2
After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, "Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this." At once I was in the Spirit, and there before me was a throne in heaven with someone sitting on it.
He was called up to heaven. The text gives a lot of evidence to suggest that it was an out-of-body experience. The Greek word that is used to describe (I assume every instance of) bodily snatching up or catching up of people (see Acts. 8:39, 1Thess. 4:17, Rev. 12. 5, etc.) is not used to describe this experience. Instead, he says he was “in the Spirit (or spirit)”; strongly suggesting that it was his spirit-man that was involved.

The process of death
Now does the bible give us insight into what happens when one dies? If we look at some of Peter’s statements we can also get some insight:
2Pet 1:14-15
knowing that the laying aside of my earthly dwelling is imminent, as also our Lord Jesus Christ has made clear to me. And I will also be diligent that at any time after my departure you will be able to call these things to mind.
There are two senses of ‘departing’ – on the one hand, objectively, it is a departure from the brethren (to the brethren, Peter would have departed) on the other hand or subjectively, it is a departure of Peter from the body AND to be with the Lord. To put it simply, to us, they’ve left, to them, they (their spirits) are leaving their body. That is the same sense in which Paul refers to the dead saints in Christ as ‘asleep’. They are asleep to us but as Jesus said in Luke 20:38, they are (NOT ‘they will be’) alive to God (and of course, to themselves).

Phil. 1:22-24
If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body.
When Paul says “depart AND be with Christ” he was referring to death – he sees death not as a dissolution of man’s existence, or a temporary suspension of awareness, but merely as a departure of the inner man (or the spirit) from the body. This departure does not imply that the spirit man ceases to be conscious upon leaving the body that is why his departure immediately implies a relocation to be with Christ.
The phrase be “with Christ” in this context is not a figurative term, it is literal. If it was merely figurative, then there wouldn’t be a contrast between remaining in the body and being with Christ. As I said earlier, figuratively (or rather, positionally), our spirits are ‘with Christ’ even now (see Eph. 2:6). So it would be wrong then for Paul to suggest that we cannot be “with Christ” while in the body if he were not referring to a literal being together with Him.
As regards destination, the question then is; where is Christ? If Christ is in heaven would Paul not also be with him in heaven?

These two points - that the spirit continues to exist, and that the location of the said spirit is with Christ in heaven - can be further buttressed by considering the scenario involving Stephen.
Acts 7:55-56, 59
But being full of the Holy Spirit, he gazed intently into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God; and he said, “Behold, I see the heavens opened up and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God  ……… They went on stoning Stephen as he called on the Lord and said, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!”
Stephen was about to be killed. However at the point of death, knowing that for him dieing is only a door (so to speak) to pass through in order to be with Christ, the bible records that he ‘gazed intently’ into heaven, the Holy Spirit then opened the eyes of his spirit to look into heaven and he saw the Lord standing in wait for Him. That led him to then make the statement that “Lord, Jesus, receive my spirit”, if I might add, unto yourself. 
A little digression that might be a little relevant to the point is the fact that the Lord was standing. Normally we know that the Lord sits at the right hand of God, but because of the imminent reception of Stephen (his spirit), the Lord stood in sort of an ovatory manner. I kind of like that picture.

Sorry for the long epistle. We are with Him positionally now, out spirits will leave our bodies to literally be with Him when we die, and at his coming (I didn’t go into this latter fact), we will we reunited with our resurrected and changed bodies. Cheers all .

I-spy ricadelide. . .

Lol. . . Happy New Year!! I just dey wonder whether dem don release you from your exams! How body?

ricadelide:


Sorry for the long epistle. We are with Him positionally now, our spirits will leave our bodies to literally be with Him when we die, and at his coming (I didn’t go into this latter fact), we will we reunited with our resurrected and changed bodies. Cheers all .

Well said. See your neat delinetaion of the subject - why we no go call you oga patapata!?!

@ricadelide,

A very good job you've done there. I was just going to come back and make a few statement, but you've covere it already.

I was going to refer to Mark 12:27 - He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You are badly mistaken This alone should jettison any thought that those who died in faith are in one unconscious state as noetic and bobbyaf want us to believe. God is not the God of the dead but of the living.

Also you refered to the story of Lazarus which makes it clear that when a righteous man or sinner dies, they will be consious though there destinations are different. How clearer can these be?!

pilgrim.1:

Hehe. .@Bobbyaf,

There's just one reason why I keep holding back instead of rushing answers to the subject. But let me point out something and then ask you two simple questions:

I wonder what that reason is. I had written all the above on Word and was about to post it when I saw your post. Didn't want to waste the writeup.
Hope I didn't preempt something special .

pilgrim.1:

I-spy ricadelide. . .

Lol. . . Happy New Year!! I just dey wonder whether them don release you from your exams! How body?

Lol . . . happy new year to you too. I spied your notes abi? Se I no copy the wrong answers sha

Actually, I've been released from exams for a long while, after exams, lab work and research took my time so i've just been hanging around and enjoying other people's contributions.

Well said. See your neat delinetaion of the subject - why we no go call you oga patapata!?!

Thanks. _sheepish Obviously though, the only reason why I had a 'chance' of speaking was because you and TayoD somehow chose not to. So, the real ogas should be fairly obvious. No be so?
cheers

@TayoD,
Thanks bro. I guessed you were busy like you said yesterday that was why i preempted you guys.

Tayo-D:

Also you refered to the story of Lazarus which makes it clear that when a righteous man or sinner dies, they will be consious though there destinations are different. How clearer can these be?!

In red, my thoughts exactly. Cheers

@ Pilgrim

Two questions:

(a) If the spirit departs the body at death, where does that spirit go?

(b) If the spirit is still in the grave at death, then from where does it RETURN?

See my set of scriptures I first gave to this thread. The bible says that the "spirit (breath of life) goes back to God from whence it came". The response to the second part of your question becomes obvious. At the resurrection God restores that same spirit to the glorified bodies of all the resurrected saints.

You have always assumed that the dead in Christ are still in the grave

That is what the scripture teaches. If the bible says the dead in Christ will rise first, then where are they rising from? No other place but the grave.

- which would mean that they never left their bodies (or "departed" their bodies).

Pilgrim there is no longer a "they". Once the spirit leaves the body at death there is no longer a "they". The bible says there is no memory of them. Listen:

The living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun." "There is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest." Ecclesiastes 9:5, 6, 10.

"The dead praise not the Lord." Psalms 115:17.


“His breath goes forth, he returns to his earth, in that very day his thoughts perish” Psalm 146:4

David spoke of “the sleep of death” (Psalm 13:3). All throughout the Old Testament, when kings died, they “slept with their fathers” (1 Kings 2:10).

The same is true in the New Testament. When Lazarus died, Jesus Christ said, “Our friend Lazarus is sleeping… Jesus spoke of his death” (John 11:11-13).

After Stephen was martyred, “he fell asleep” (Acts 7:60)

Dead Christians “sleep in Jesus” (1 Thess. 4:14).

Daniel wrote that at the end of time, “many who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt” (Daniel 12:2).

Jesus taught the same thing when He promised His disciples, “I will come again, and receive you to Myself” (John 14:3). So there can be no recieving before Jesus comes. When a Christian dies they are asleep in the grave as all those texts have pointed out.

If their spirits did not depart their bodies to go to some other place, then you would definitely not be speaking of the RETURN of those spirits to their (glorified) bodies! (How can you "depart" and yet "remain" at the same place, so that you can "return" when you never went anywhere else?) Grin

So who apart from you Pilgrim is concluding that? I have already said that the spirit goes back to God in accordance with scriptures. So why are you saying what I didn't say?

Now, as you seek answers to those questions, the simple issue in all your argument would be simply this: please find out WHERE those spirits went upon departing their bodies!

You need to answer that one. I already know!

@ Ricadelide

LOL . . . what do you want to do about Paul’s statements in Eph. 2:6?

Well, lets take a look at exactly what Paul said - 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

This text is talking about man's spiritual condition in this life. When we accept Christ we are quickened spiritually. We are born again. Even the part that says "sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus" I take to mean, having that fellowship with Christ. Paul talks about having that ", peace that passes all understanding"

So as Christians we have already begun to enjoy a heavenly life although we are not yet there.

You (your spirit) were dead (verse 1). [Death here being a separation from the life of God rather than a dissolution of the entity. In other words, we still retained our spirits even though the bible calls it dead. But in the sense that the spirit has lost its ability to communicate with God and exude his life, then it was dead.] The same (dead) spirit was ‘made alive’ and then ‘raised up with Christ’. Even now, positionally, you’ve been raised up and are seated above all rule and authority.

Verse 1 is not referring to the physical death, but rather the spiritual condition in which we find ourselves.

Understanding the nature of man and the process of death, one would realize that death is merely the departure of the spirit of man FROM the body. This is very clear from scripture.

And in this thread I was the first to point that aspect of things out in scripture. But thanks for the reminder anyway.

The spirit does not cease to exist; it only ceases to remain in the body.

Well said, but I have already alluded to that in scripture.

There are many scriptures that show that spirits continue to exist and are self-aware subsequent to death. The story of the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 18:19, Jesus’ response to the Saduccees in Mark 12: 24-27 and so on.

I am not sure that that reference has anything to do with life after death as it relates to the exact topic.

The nature of man
In Paul’s writings, this same fact that the spirit of man is a distinct entity which is clearly conscious, perceptive and aware of its surroundings is also evident.

Phil. 1:22-24
If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body.

This text is all about the assurance that Paul has in Christ, nothing more. Paul's ticket was already paid for by Christ. So the expression "to be with Christ" can be viewed in another way. It it not saying that Paul after his death is going to be active in heaven. It is not saying that Paul's spirit is going to be conscious in any form or fashion.

We see Paul saying “if I am to live IN the body”. What is the ‘I’ that is mentioned 6 times in 3 verses?

The "I" is referring to the person before death. That person or soul is a combination of both body and spirit. As long as Paul remained alive he could use the word "I"

The spirit or the inner man is the REAL man,

That is your opinion, but if you care to show me a direct reference that says that, fine.

the body is just a “tent” for the spirit, and the soul is merely the seat of (self) consciousness – sort of a ‘co-ordinator’ or ‘mediator’ between the spiritual and the physical.

The bible says that when God blew the breath of life in Adam he became a living soul. He became a living person, or being. So the word soul means being, creature, or person. I will agree though that the word soul has been used interchangeably in scripture to connote other meanings.

2Cor. 12:2
I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows.

If the experience could have been an “out-of-body” experience, in which case it would involve the spirit of the man being taken to the third heaven, then it should be fairly obvious that the spirit is a conscious, perceptive entity rather than a mere breath. As he later said in that passage, he “heard” many things, showing perception. And he was warned not to say some of those things, showing memory. These are all attributes that the spirit of man can exhibit, just like the body making use of the CNS can. That’s why Paul said he was not sure whether it was in the body or out of it, for – we can assume – it seemed to make no difference to him.

Once again you're bordering on speculation. The word spirit was not even mentioned in that passage. My take on that verse is different. Paul was in vision. He was talking about himself. In a vision one sees and hears things shown by God. One's mind, and not the spirit, is utilized in vision.

The same was true of John.
Rev. 4: 1-2
After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, "Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this." At once I was in the Spirit, and there before me was a throne in heaven with someone sitting on it.
He was called up to heaven. The text gives a lot of evidence to suggest that it was an out-of-body experience. The Greek word that is used to describe (I assume every instance of) bodily snatching up or catching up of people (see Acts. 8:39, 1Thess. 4:17, Rev. 12. 5, etc.) is not used to describe this experience. Instead, he says he was “in the Spirit (or spirit)”; strongly suggesting that it was his spirit-man that was involved.

Simply put John got a revelation. Nothing more to it. Notice the word "Spirit" is written in capital S. Its not the same thing as the "spirit of man" Besides, John was very much alive when he got the revelation. We are talking about life after death, not what happens when a person is alive.

The process of death
Now does the bible give us insight into what happens when one dies? If we look at some of Peter’s statements we can also get some insight:
2Pet 1:14-15
knowing that the laying aside of my earthly dwelling is imminent, as also our Lord Jesus Christ has made clear to me. And I will also be diligent that at any time after my departure you will be able to call these things to mind.
There are two senses of ‘departing’ – on the one hand, objectively, it is a departure from the brethren (to the brethren, Peter would have departed) on the other hand or subjectively, it is a departure of Peter from the body AND to be with the Lord.

Your definition of departure is subjective. Peter talked about his death. Nothing more should be added. Like Paul, Peter had the assurance of being with Christ. Its all about having the assurance.

I will address the other texts soon.

@topic
I only just stumbled across this thread today and I mnust say it has made for me very interesting reading. now my comments_{make una no worry e no go long like epistle}

@noetic & bobbyaf
fantastic exposition you guys have put forward there! it couldnt have been better said. like noetic said 98% of church goers today don't question what their 'so-called' pastors (whom by the way I can teach a great deal from the scripture - in this I do not lie) for some unknown fear that has been instilled into them. I really would like to correspond with you guys on this and other well mistaken areas of scripture. hook up with me; just find the necessary details in my profile (i'm sure you guys are smart enough to see them though they aren't obvious )

@ricadelide, Tayo-D, Pilgrim.1 et al
you guys really need to get your facts straight. Read your Bibles very well and listen to what it says as it says it; not trying to interpret it to fit in with whatever your Pastor said. The Bible is always clear in its statements, it only requires u to search it out. My advise? go over your scriptures again with a pre-formed bias to anything and you just might understand those scriptures.

@all
always let the Bible interpret itself. It can do so better than any book any Pastor, no matter how highly placed or popular he is, has written because the difference is this: the books are written by these pastors but THE BOOK, The Bible is God's living and active word.

[center]", and I think I have the mind of Christ"[/center]

@rockiedink,

", and I think I have the mind of Christ"

Are you sure you do? Coming here and boasting: (whom by the way I can teach a great deal from the scripture - in this I do not lie), is not an evidence of a humble mind, but one who does not know yet as he ought to know - 1 Corinthians 8:2 And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.

@bobbyaf,
Unfortunately, this would be a diversion from the topic at hand to something entirely different. However, since it’s obvious you do not understand some of these issues (no offence) I’d go into them.

First, the bible makes it explicitly clear that there are THREE parts to the WHOLE man.
1Thess 5:23
And the God of peace himself sanctify you wholly; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved entire, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Here there are three distinct entities which must be preserved complete and blameless at the coming of Christ. The order in which they are mentioned is also important, for it is from the innermost man to the outer man. These are what make up the WHOLE man.
For this discussion we can discountenance talking about the body. However, this verse makes it clear that the spirit is NOT synonymous with the soul. That they are different entities can be buttressed by this latter scripture:
Heb 4:12
For the word of God is living and operative, and sharper than any two-edged sword, and penetrating to the division of soul and spirit, both of joints and marrow, and a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Here we are made to realize that the Word of God is the instrument by which a separation or division of the spirit and the soul of man takes place. What the soul is and why there needs be such a separation isn’t my emphasis for now. Suffice it to say that, the mere fact that they CAN BE separated shows that they are two distinct entities.

Now, coming to the spirit, the spirit is NOT mere breath as I’ve endeavored to show you previously. I’ll do so more explicitly now.
Gen. 2:7
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Like you said, God breathed into man’s nostrils and he became “a living soul”. Understanding the parts of the whole man from 1Thess.5:23, we can draw a parallel with the creation account. The body is that which was formed out of the dust of the ground, the spirit is that which was formed out of the breath of the Almighty (see Zech. 12:1b). These are the two independent entities. That which was produced in the man as a result of contact of the spirit WITH the body, and which became the coordinating seat or meeting point of the two is the soul. It is the self-aware part of man or the seat of individuality and personality and that is why men are called 'souls' and Adam, a 'living soul'.

Now, the attributes of the spirit that was so formed in the man can be gleaned from other sources. I’ll show you things that the spirit can do, and hope that you’d realize that you’re mistaken, as a mere breath or life principle cannot possess such attributes. There are so many scriptures, but I do hope these few would do.
1Cor. 2:11
For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God.
The spirit is capable of knowledge, a mere breath cannot ‘know’.

Acts 17:16
Now while Paul was waiting for them at Athens, his spirit was being provoked within him as he was observing the city full of idols.
The spirit is capable of being provoked.

Luke 1:47
And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior.
The spirit of man is capable of rejoicing

1Cor 14:15-16
What is the outcome then? I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with the mind also; I will sing with the spirit and I will sing with the mind also. Otherwise if you bless in the spirit only, how will the one who fills the place of the ungifted say the “Amen” at your giving of thanks, since he does not know what you are saying?
This draws a contrast between praying with the mind and praying with the spirit. The spirit is NOT the mind. Yet, the spirit is capable of knowledge. You can’t sing with or pray with a mere breath. And NO, this verse is not referring to the Holy Spirit.

Rom. 8:16
The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God.
Here we see a mention of the Holy Spirit AND the spirit of man and we see that they are in contact. Here we realize that the testifying or witnessing of the Spirit of God to/in us is actually to our spirits. This can be understood more accurately in the light of this verse:
Prov. 20: 27
The spirit of man is the lamp of the LORD, searching all the innermost parts of his being.
This shows us that the guidance or leading of God to the man is via the man’s spirit. It is via the spirit of the man that God gives light the whole of a man’s being. Thus the spirit is the part of the man that is capable of communicating with God, and it is via this faculty that the Holy Spirit speaks to and leads us. (Rom. 8:14)

Finally for now,
Heb. 12: 23
to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect
Among the throng in the Mount Zion, the heavenly Jerusalem, the writer of Hebrews mentions “the spirits of just men”. I hope it should be obvious that God did not gather the breaths (whatever that is) of the men of old together to be kept in one place.

Now, all these should suffice to show that the spirit of the man is a faculty within the man that is[b] capable of knowing, perceiving, rejoicing, praying and many other things[/b]. I really do hope you’d be open-minded and let the scriptures speak for themselves – it is NOT mere breath (again, whatever that means).