fellis:
So I am allowed to have premarital sexx as long as I don't do it with wh.ores?

fellis:
So I am allowed to have premarital sexx as long as I don't do it with wh.ores?

CrazyMan:
Now look at it this way. Assuming you have a teenage daughter, and she comes to you to inquire whether pre-martial sex is good for her or not.

What answer would you give to her..would you tell to go ahead and enjoy sex provided she doesn't feel guilty? I want you to be honest with your answer.

Crazyman:
Well christianity is a religion of choice, so I can't force you into it. I can only convince you...but the final step lies in your hands.

Crazyman:
The bible didn't say dragging, it said gambling. And people only gamble for valuable things and not worthless materials.

So without even the bible stating whether or not the cloth was costly, you should know with common wisdom that if that garment was worthless, the soldiers wouldn't have spent so much time on it, they would have thrown it away.

E_monkey: Please I would like to hear something else other than 'because you will burn in hell if you die a Muslim'. I just want to know what benefits I stand to gain in this life if I decided to abandon Islam and become a Christian.
What makes Christianity more rewarding to me than Islam?
Thanks.

tiberius84: https://www.nairaland.com/newpost?topic=1042498&post=12106490



Hello ... E_monkey? Nice name =) I am a Christian and, quite accidentally, this morning I heard a woman talk about how and why she became a Christian. She's from Iran, she was a Muslim, then she moved to England. There, she found her brother became a Christian. She didn't like it, of course =) Her point was that just as Jesus (as a great prophet) raised the level of standard from the law of Moses, Muhammad also raised the level of Jesus' teaching into an even higher level. So, as Islam is already perfect, why should she go backwards, to a lower level? It didn't make sense. So, she refused to listen and, after a while, she asked her brother to shut up about it because she wasn't interested.

But, eventually, she visited her brother's friend because they promised they won't talk to her about Christianity. However, as she was talking to the man's wife in one corner, her brother and the man were reading the Bible in another, and she could hear them. They were talking about a portion we call "the sermon on the mount." It's in Matthew's account about the life of Jesus, in chapter five. What caught her attention was what Jesus said in this portion:



This started her thinking because this concept of revenge ( "eye to eye" ) is in the law of Moses, but she realized Jesus took it to a much higher level than that. So, she thought, it's Islam that brought it back to the lower level that it was before! Now, of course, she didn't accept it right then because she wanted to know more, she couldn't just discard everything she believed in, she didn't want to having to go back and forth between the two, it's too important a matter for that. But that's what started her out, so I thought I could share it with you.

---

The basic teaching of Christianity is that man is sinful but God is just, so God can't let man's sin without punishment. We all already sinned so, for a perfect God, we can't be "good enough." But God is also loving, and he found a way to be able to not to have to punish us, but for that, I'll need to talk about this doctrine called "trinity" first.

From the Bible, we can see that there are three separate persons (with their own separate will) with the attributes that only God can have (things like all-knowing, all-powerful, one who we can rightly worship, etc.) Now, at the same time, we know that there is ONE God. Jesus talked about his Father, and the Jews wanted to stone him, because he made himself equal with God. And that's a terrible sin, except if you are indeed equal with God. Now, when we talk about Jesus as the Son, this must not be interpreted in the context of human procreation, because it has nothing to do with it. In fact, the Bible says the Son has always existed, just as the Father. It's about the relationship between them: that the Son, while being equal with the Father, still submits to His will. How can God be one and yet three persons? I think it's okay that God is great enough that we can't understand or explain everything about him =)

So, back to the story. God can't just forget about my sin, because he's just. But he wants to forgive me, because he loves us (though we don't deserve it.) That's why Jesus came to the world. All of us, when we die, have to pay for our sins. Jesus, as God (and yes, that's a very strong statement, one that needs proof!) lived a perfect life, so he could take upon himself our sins: he died and paid the price instead of us (another really hard to accept thing: that God would die for us...) But death couldn't keep him captive, he rose again, winning over death once and forever.

God is not only willing, he wants to forgive us, but can he forgive somebody who doesn't accept he's at fault? So, we need to come to God and confess that we're sinful, and ask him to forgive us. And he will! He wants to, Jesus came and died for this very reason! All we need to do is admit we're at fault and ask for his help. Yet, even this is something we can't do without God's work in our life first. Even realizing we need God's forgiveness is God's work in our life... We really have nothing to be proud of.

Yet we are proud and we like to think we have it all together. We want to work for it, to be able to say "yes God, I deserve your reward!" But we simply can't be good enough for God, we already failed, we can't undo all the bad that we already did.

So, this is probably the biggest revelation from Christianity: we can't please God, we can't reach him. We were hopeless, but God scooped down to us and reached out for us.

Here are two of my favorite quotes:





The first one is from the apostle Paul's letter to the Philippians, chapter 2, the second is from his letter to the Ephesians, chapter 2.

Also, about the "burning in hell" thing. I believe that what matters is whether somebody humbles himself and turns to God or Allah (the name doesn't matter, there is only God who created the world) with an understanding that he can't be good enough, and ask for his help. God will not refuse a humble man (but He resists the proud – the one who thinks he can be good enough even for God Himself.) I believe that knowing all the correct things about God is important because then I can live a life as one who knows is accepted by God. But I also know that God is good and he won't condemn anybody who turns to him, no matter by what name or with how much or how little understanding.

Sorry I wrote this much. I can talk so much about these things, the reason behind my security in God's grace and forgiveness. I want to share it with as many as I can. And yes, if you are interested, I can write you more about the teachings of Christianity, or if you are interested, about some of the differences I know about between Islam and Christianity.

tiberius84: https://www.nairaland.com/newpost?topic=1042498&post=12106490



Hello ... E_monkey? Nice name =) I am a Christian and, quite accidentally, this morning I heard a woman talk about how and why she became a Christian. She's from Iran, she was a Muslim, then she moved to England. There, she found her brother became a Christian. She didn't like it, of course =) Her point was that just as Jesus (as a great prophet) raised the level of standard from the law of Moses, Muhammad also raised the level of Jesus' teaching into an even higher level. So, as Islam is already perfect, why should she go backwards, to a lower level? It didn't make sense. So, she refused to listen and, after a while, she asked her brother to shut up about it because she wasn't interested.

But, eventually, she visited her brother's friend because they promised they won't talk to her about Christianity. However, as she was talking to the man's wife in one corner, her brother and the man were reading the Bible in another, and she could hear them. They were talking about a portion we call "the sermon on the mount." It's in Matthew's account about the life of Jesus, in chapter five. What caught her attention was what Jesus said in this portion:



This started her thinking because this concept of revenge ( "eye to eye" ) is in the law of Moses, but she realized Jesus took it to a much higher level than that. So, she thought, it's Islam that brought it back to the lower level that it was before! Now, of course, she didn't accept it right then because she wanted to know more, she couldn't just discard everything she believed in, she didn't want to having to go back and forth between the two, it's too important a matter for that. But that's what started her out, so I thought I could share it with you.

---

The basic teaching of Christianity is that man is sinful but God is just, so God can't let man's sin without punishment. We all already sinned so, for a perfect God, we can't be "good enough." But God is also loving, and he found a way to be able to not to have to punish us, but for that, I'll need to talk about this doctrine called "trinity" first.

From the Bible, we can see that there are three separate persons (with their own separate will) with the attributes that only God can have (things like all-knowing, all-powerful, one who we can rightly worship, etc.) Now, at the same time, we know that there is ONE God. Jesus talked about his Father, and the Jews wanted to stone him, because he made himself equal with God. And that's a terrible sin, except if you are indeed equal with God. Now, when we talk about Jesus as the Son, this must not be interpreted in the context of human procreation, because it has nothing to do with it. In fact, the Bible says the Son has always existed, just as the Father. It's about the relationship between them: that the Son, while being equal with the Father, still submits to His will. How can God be one and yet three persons? I think it's okay that God is great enough that we can't understand or explain everything about him =)

So, back to the story. God can't just forget about my sin, because he's just. But he wants to forgive me, because he loves us (though we don't deserve it.) That's why Jesus came to the world. All of us, when we die, have to pay for our sins. Jesus, as God (and yes, that's a very strong statement, one that needs proof!) lived a perfect life, so he could take upon himself our sins: he died and paid the price instead of us (another really hard to accept thing: that God would die for us...) But death couldn't keep him captive, he rose again, winning over death once and forever.

God is not only willing, he wants to forgive us, but can he forgive somebody who doesn't accept he's at fault? So, we need to come to God and confess that we're sinful, and ask him to forgive us. And he will! He wants to, Jesus came and died for this very reason! All we need to do is admit we're at fault and ask for his help. Yet, even this is something we can't do without God's work in our life first. Even realizing we need God's forgiveness is God's work in our life... We really have nothing to be proud of.

Yet we are proud and we like to think we have it all together. We want to work for it, to be able to say "yes God, I deserve your reward!" But we simply can't be good enough for God, we already failed, we can't undo all the bad that we already did.

So, this is probably the biggest revelation from Christianity: we can't please God, we can't reach him. We were hopeless, but God scooped down to us and reached out for us.

Here are two of my favorite quotes:





The first one is from the apostle Paul's letter to the Philippians, chapter 2, the second is from his letter to the Ephesians, chapter 2.

Also, about the "burning in hell" thing. I believe that what matters is whether somebody humbles himself and turns to God or Allah (the name doesn't matter, there is only God who created the world) with an understanding that he can't be good enough, and ask for his help. God will not refuse a humble man (but He resists the proud – the one who thinks he can be good enough even for God Himself.) I believe that knowing all the correct things about God is important because then I can live a life as one who knows is accepted by God. But I also know that God is good and he won't condemn anybody who turns to him, no matter by what name or with how much or how little understanding.

Sorry I wrote this much. I can talk so much about these things, the reason behind my security in God's grace and forgiveness. I want to share it with as many as I can. And yes, if you are interested, I can write you more about the teachings of Christianity, or if you are interested, about some of the differences I know about between Islam and Christianity.

by cescky(m): 12:59pm

tiberius84: https://www.nairaland.com/newpost?topic=1042498&post=12106490



Hello ... E_monkey? Nice name =) I am a Christian and, quite accidentally, this morning I heard a woman talk about how and why she became a Christian. She's from Iran, she was a Muslim, then she moved to England. There, she found her brother became a Christian. She didn't like it, of course =) Her point was that just as Jesus (as a great prophet) raised the level of standard from the law of Moses, Muhammad also raised the level of Jesus' teaching into an even higher level. So, as Islam is already perfect, why should she go backwards, to a lower level? It didn't make sense. So, she refused to listen and, after a while, she asked her brother to shut up about it because she wasn't interested.

But, eventually, she visited her brother's friend because they promised they won't talk to her about Christianity. However, as she was talking to the man's wife in one corner, her brother and the man were reading the Bible in another, and she could hear them. They were talking about a portion we call "the sermon on the mount." It's in Matthew's account about the life of Jesus, in chapter five. What caught her attention was what Jesus said in this portion:



This started her thinking because this concept of revenge ( "eye to eye" ) is in the law of Moses, but she realized Jesus took it to a much higher level than that. So, she thought, it's Islam that brought it back to the lower level that it was before! Now, of course, she didn't accept it right then because she wanted to know more, she couldn't just discard everything she believed in, she didn't want to having to go back and forth between the two, it's too important a matter for that. But that's what started her out, so I thought I could share it with you.

The basic teaching of Christianity is that man is sinful but God is just, so God can't let man's sin without punishment. We all already sinned so, for a perfect God, we can't be "good enough." But God is also loving, and he found a way to be able to not to have to punish us, but for that, I'll need to talk about this doctrine called "trinity" first.

From the Bible, we can see that there are three separate persons (with their own separate will) with the attributes that only God can have (things like all-knowing, all-powerful, one who we can rightly worship, etc.) Now, at the same time, we know that there is ONE God. Jesus talked about his Father, and the Jews wanted to stone him, because he made himself equal with God. And that's a terrible sin, except if you are indeed equal with God. Now, when we talk about Jesus as the Son, this must not be interpreted in the context of human procreation, because it has nothing to do with it. In fact, the Bible says the Son has always existed, just as the Father. It's about the relationship between them: that the Son, while being equal with the Father, still submits to His will. How can God be one and yet three persons? I think it's okay that God is great enough that we can't understand or explain everything about him =)

So, back to the story. God can't just forget about my sin, because he's just.

But he wants to forgive me, because he loves us (though we don't deserve it.) That's why Jesus came to the world.

All of us, when we die, have to pay for our sins. Jesus, as God (and yes, that's a very strong statement, one that needs proof!) lived a perfect life,

so he could take upon himself our sins: he died and paid the price instead of us

(another really hard to accept thing: that God would die for us...)

But death couldn't keep him captive, he rose again, winning over death once and forever.

God is not only willing, he wants to forgive us, but can he forgive somebody who doesn't accept he's at fault? So, we need to come to God and confess that we're sinful, and ask him to forgive us. And he will!

He wants to, Jesus came and died for this very reason!

All we need to do is admit we're at fault and ask for his help. Yet, even this is something we can't do without God's work in our life first. Even realizing we need God's forgiveness is God's work in our life... We really have nothing to be proud of.

Yet we are proud and we like to think we have it all together. We want to work for it, to be able to say "yes God, I deserve your reward!" But we simply can't be good enough for God, we already failed, we can't undo all the bad that we already did.

So, this is probably the biggest revelation from Christianity: we can't please God, we can't reach him. We were hopeless, but God scooped down to us and reached out for us.

Here are two of my favorite quotes:
The first one is from the apostle Paul's letter to the Philippians, chapter 2, the second is from his letter to the Ephesians, chapter 2.

Also, about the "burning in hell" thing. I believe that what matters is whether somebody humbles himself and turns to God or Allah (the name doesn't matter, there is only God who created the world) with an understanding that he can't be good enough, and ask for his help. God will not refuse a humble man (but He resists the proud – the one who thinks he can be good enough even for God Himself.) I believe that knowing all the correct things about God is important because then I can live a life as one who knows is accepted by God. But I also know that God is good and he won't condemn anybody who turns to him, no matter by what name or with how much or how little understanding.

Sorry I wrote this much. I can talk so much about these things, the reason behind my security in God's grace and forgiveness. I want to share it with as many as I can. And yes, if you are interested, I can write you more about the teachings of Christianity, or if you are interested, about some of the differences I know about between Islam and Christianity.

NICE one,
GOD requires only two, things from each and every one of us,we can not be righteous enough for him , holy enough, etc

ONLY TWO LAWS THE LAW OF LOVE(LOVE GOD WITH UR ALL,AND WHERE IS HE? IN UR NEIGHBOR, THAT IS LOVE UR NEIGHBOR AS YOUR SELF)(WHEN U LOVE UR NEIGHBOR AS UR SELF DO NOT BE DECEIVED U ARE ONLY LOVING GOD,AND WHEN U GIVE GOD,HE MUST REPAY,)SO IMAGINE THE DANGERS OF HATING UR NEIGBOUR

LAW OF FAITH (AS YOU BELEIVE IN LIFE,WHAT EVER YOU BLEIVE IN LIFE, IT SHALL BE UNTO U, IRRESPECTIVE OF IF YOUR BELIEF IS HARMFUL TO YOU OR NOT, ITS UNTO U AS U BELIEVE)BELIEVE IN GOOD THINGS HAPPENING,THIS LAW IS FOR UR PROVISION AND SURVIVAL ON THIS PLANET(what is fear but belief in evil,inverted faith)FAITH: FOR THE NEXT WORLD HEAVEN, THAT IS ACCEPTING JESUS AS LORD AND SAVIOUR AND KNOWING YOUR ONLY PASSING THROUGH THIS PLANET

Sweetnecta: @cescy, et al including tiberius84: The farewell address of the messenger [sa] is at least equal to the sermon on the mount of Biblical Jesus. I have read both of them and his seasoned heart knows the truth. You people should get the farewell address for yourself to know the truth. "eye for eye" was never out of fashion the very reason that even the unproven adulteress was going to be stoned. Allah allowed the full scope of justice among humans to reign by allwoing

1}. Those with hard heart seek their just justice by allowing the eye for eye.
2]. Those with softer heart to seek justice and mercy by receiving compensation in "blood money" for what they lost.
3]. Those who seek mercy and noting else to leave it to God without eye for eye or blood money.

When you look at the above compared to the eye for eye only where the world will become blind in few generations, and the forgive all by turning the other cheek where the strongest will survive, the rest dead and rotten before their time, you will quickly see that those who value lives will not dare to hurt another live because he fears the possible revenge of the eye for eye or a big hit in the pocket sending him to poor house. He does not know whether the potential victim will forgive as in no 3.

The eye for eye is like the wild wild west while turning the other cheek is like woodstock. neither is practical in any place or city or time like today's new york city or lagos, etc. It is what Allah says with the 3 options that will fit a city like new york where everyone mind his own business, unless when truly needed to interfere in stopping evil or propagating goodness.

you people based on your proposition of Jesus speech in the sermon on the mount have made Yahweh worse than yourselves. Yahweh will not let sin go while you mere mortal that seek His Mercy will let sin, wrong as plucking your eye out go! what a load of crock. If this is what convince the woman, then she truly belongs to confused state of mind.

Thats God you have painted worse than what Jesus said in the sermon on the mount. Allah can forgive your sin by His Mercy. Justice of Allah is overcome by the Mercy of Allah.

The Islamic take of God is that He is Merciful and no one should lose hope of His Mercy, Forgiveness. And no one has to die for you, but only your heartfelt sincere repentance is needed. How easy is that!

if i have a dime for every confused statement! At least the last bold is very confusing begging the statement that God is not the Author of confusion. How is 3 equal to 1 or 1 equal to 3 in the first bold? Are 3 equals not 3 while 1 is always 1? if i have 3 pies of pizza, how can i make 1 pie of same size as any one of them out of them without munching up 2 full pies slices? Does all powerful, all knowing, the One Who all right of absolute worship belongs need to share these Rights/Qualities with anyone and still have the Absolute right, Alone? Jesus did not make himself equal with God from his own lips; here is an illustration of it for you, "Of my own power I can do nothing. . ." His disciples supported him by saying "Your servant Jesus who You sent". There is no place that you will have servant equal to the MASTER WHO sent him. No place. And how is a partner submitting to his partner? Even a wife dont submit to husband all the time. From my own family experience. I dont to every business partner. sometimes, the subordinate has better idea that the boss must follow for the bottom line. This your partnership between Jesus and God where it is Jesus that is always submitting is fake partnership.

Jesus said I am sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. No other reason.

Jesus did not come to die but came only for the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Whats a lost sheep in this case? Those who deviated from what Moses brought; Hear,oh Israel.Your God is One Lord.

How can Jesus be God or lived a perfect life if he said "Oh Israel, our God is One Lord" and "whoever says fool to anyone, he will end up in hell for it". Then Jesus said "Fool". What do you think is the condition of Jesus now; God and perfect life from his own lips, above and the fact that his disciples called him and knew him as servant of God? There is no one who is good but God Alone is God said Jesus of the Bibles.

Hogwash because the sin of the sinner is upon him. so is the good of the one who does good, says the Bibles. it will be absolute injustice if the sinner is left alone but punish the doer of God [i think you meant "good"], or deprive the doer of good but reward the evil doer with that good deed. Allah is Equitable, Most Forgiving.

Because lies are hard to accept or swallow and you cant explain it with straight face.

these are lame statements lacking factual supports. Once dead, then judgment has not happened on him

... and proof the deceit of your statement are really all the statements that are false from the Bible; from he will be called Immanuel which he was never called,

... king, ruler which he was not within the jewish people,

... to the another comforter which what he said cant be pointed out to returning in the lifetime of the disciples, which has not been met even now that the disciples have been dead for 2 millennial.

Neither is Jesus the only comforter, since he said there is another comforter to come. No one is good except God, Alone. And no one should be arrogant, hence Jesus was humble.

In Islam, we can please God Who says He is pleased with us when we obey Him. We can reach God Who has said we should seek Him alone, directly. We are not hopeless because God says we should not lose hope in His Mercy. The Veil between the sinner and Allah is remove by sincere repentance. A servant is closest to his Lord when he prostrates his face to his Lord.

Can we let Jesus the servant of God speak for himself instead of bringing up Paul who is not a disciple, but just a follower of the followers of Jesus?

Allah is Arabic Name for The God. The same way Yahweh is the Hebrew Name for The God. But thats beside the point. Pay attention to the second bold. In it you said God must be known correctly. Now tell me how do you know what Yahweh want? Give me the full detail of how to worship Him.One example please. In Islam I can give you the salah from a to z as my example.

i am interested to know about the "differences i know about between islam and christianity". You want my email or you wanna do it on NL? I have a thread I will love you to contribute. Its on NL and it is a simple question; i wanna know who is the another comforter who heard from God before he spoke to man. What did he say to the disciples that the Bibles reported Jesus promised the another comforter to? How is he abiding by them forever now that they are all in the graves? What did he say to correct them and from what wrong? You are in for a shock of your life. I will take you to task, InshaAllah. And i hope when you find the truth, you will follow the reality instead of behaving like toto in the wizard of oz?

forcing the Hands of God and you then expect Him to punish the innocent for you, yet you shiver about the consequences of what He will do if you hate your neighbor?

Invented faith, a christian says forgetting the people of antioch. Was Jesus a christian? It not, then that was your example of what you called invented faith.

Here is the reason I bothered to respond to this piece; Islam can not be maligned and I will not at least keep quite, especially when all i need to do is to respond with the pen.

cescky: you guys are all misinterpreting me......firstly i do not know what you guys mean about the Christians in Antioch

@tiberius
remember the scriptures says in Mathew that at the end of the age, God will ask the unrighteous depart from me etc............., because you saw me hungry and never gave me food, saw me in jail and never came to visit etc and they will say when did we see u, and He will say in as much as you did it to the least of these you did it to me ..........

everyman is Jesus in disguise: a quote by mother Theresa, and simply if u do not forgive ur brother God will not forgive u, what am i saying?the summ of all the teachings is love, simply theres a law in operation which needs to be obeyed and paul says love is the fulfilling of the law.,with the measure u give it shall be given back to u!

i do not knw what u mean by forcing Gods hand etc, or punishing the innocent.

issue of inverted faith:see how peter got out of the boat and walked on water to meet Jesus?, but he he saw the wind boisterous and became afraid(thot,belief,of the worse)he started sinking,and Jesus caught him and said why did ye doubt oh ye of little faith.

also remember the centurion, Jesus told him as u have believed, let it be unto u, yes it is what we belive that makes things happen the way they happen,also remember that Jesus could not do miracles in his village, due to his peoples unbelief

cescky: nicely said

when i used the term God must pay, i did not surely mean, by fire by force oo , infact from my experience when God pays us for our righteous deeds, we hardly notice and comes from an angle we least expect,what i mean? God does a lot for us, under the guise of the favour and love people,it may be material or non material

talking about harshness dont you think it will be contradictory for God to be loving and harsh at once?

God sees all men that have accepted Jesus as saints,and citizens of heaven, but residing on earth and one law is required for us to live successfully,that is the law of love, so man in violation of the law, through hating, judging,unforgiving his neighbor brings destruction upon himself(remember my people die for lack of knowledge)(wisdom is the principal thing in all thy getting get wisdom)that is why Paul says we have obtained the perfect law of liberty, but let us not use it for vice but for love,also Paul understood,that the dispensation of grace, in other words meant the dispensation of love,and says love is the fulfilling of the law, because he knows there is a law in operation which must be obeyed.remember the part of matte w i quoted about the judgment God told the people, whom he rejected, depart from me you who practice lawlessness,so you see theirs a a law. David also attests to this when he says ''blessed are they whom You teach out of Your law''

study closely the death of Lazarus, ull see that Jesus wanted it to happen that way, in order that He may give God glory

ur right though,to a large extent, we cant put His ways in a box......
but to a large extent too, His patterns are similar

by tiberius84(m): 1:09am

Eye for eye was not a command about what to perform, it was a restriction to how you could take revenge. Actually, revenge itself was considered forbidden if the act wasn't premeditated (that's what the refuge tows, set up all over the land, were about.) Before the law, it was the same cycle of revenge as it still is at many parts of the world. The law restricted it, revenge had to be of the same proportion, and it couldn't be a reason for counter-revenge.

About Woodstock and practicality. Jesus didn't try to be practical but He was explaining what was behind the letter of the law. The Jews were happy to do the visible things but forget about the spirit of the law.

God couldn't let sin unforgiven, because He doesn't only loving, he's also perfect, therefore just. ]b]Would you consider a human judge, who let's a child-Molester and murderer go free saying "I forgive you", merciful, or just corrupted and raving mad?[/b] God can't do that.

God, however, provided a way through the death of Jesus. The payment was made. That's how you can go to God and ask for His mercy: because the way has already been made.

Actually, Abraham was justified by His faith in God's promise, even though it didn't happen yet (Jesus came hundreds of years later) and he didn't know about the exact details. But, his faith in God was counted for him as righteousness.

And that's where we arrive at the same conclusion about asking for mercy: yes, you can go to God and ask for His mercy, and He will forgive. The difference between our understanding is that I know that it cost God a lot that He can be so forgiving toward us.

I agree that the doctrine of Trinity is not a concept that can be solved by math

(however, even though 1+1+1 is not equal 1, 1x1x1 is; it's not a solution,

it's just showing that there are more ways to look at it the same thing.) This subject has been an issue of much debate, and it's quite possible that it simply can't be understood by man – even if it is so, it doesn't mean that it doesn't make sense.

God isn't that of confusion, but God is awesome. Let's imagine I have a cat. I'm not confusing, yet my little cat can't understand everything about my nature and my purposes. I'm just way beyond the capacity of it's little brain, there's nothing to do about it. Still, it can trust me for giving it food every morning. Not that I actually have a cat =)

Anyway I wasn't trying to prove Trinity, I just needed it for my explanation because this is one of Christianity's defining doctrines, clearly seen in how the Bible describes the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

About Jesus as servant. He Himself made himself "of no reputation."

It was a choice He made,

to give up on being as God, and come and live like a man, just so that He can reconcile mankind with Himself.

Also, servanthood is considered contemptible in human terms, but Jesus says in Luke 22: "You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and those who are great exercise authority over them. Yet it shall not be so among you; but whoever desires to become great among you, let him be your servant. And whoever desires to be first among you, let him be your slave – just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many." – Jesus places servanthood (giving yourself for others) as the highest thing, and He wasn't only talking about it, He was the greatest example. God stooped down to us nobodies, coming to us as a mere man, then dying for us, who deserved nothing. Only so that He can forgive us our sins and give us mercy.

I read this story in an article from William C. Chittick about Muhammad where, in the end of the story, he says: "God puts into hellfire only those who refuse to go anywhere else." I absolutely agree. God is reaching out to everyone, every day, trying to convince them of their sinfulness, and their need for help from Him, and it takes a lifetime of resisting Him to go to hell (exactly as the story above tells.) Anybody who humbles himself and accepts he need God's forgiveness will be forgiven. Christian or Muslim or Hindu. God (Allah) is merciful indeed, He judges the heart, He doesn't judge one's knowledge about Him.

cescky: ... u see some people, who try all their lives to be holy and indeed,they are holy before God and indeed sanctified saints, fail in their jobs and careers, though they are blameless, and sincerely fear God and lead a life of righteousness, but fail in their jobs or lack financially, do u think God is punishing them ? no they in ignorance of the law of faith,

go thru distress [...] what am i saying, as u think so u are, and it is always unto us as we believe,

and non Christians etc unconsciously practice this law, become a success material

see job as an example, we see that, it is what her feared that came upon him, nothing else,nothing bad, evil can happen to a christian if he has no fear of that thing

That was during the three years, before He died. You might notice that even then, He did set free the woman's daughter from being possessed by demons.

Jesus did come to die. He said so, as quoted before: "just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many."

After He died and rose, right before He ascended to heaven, He said: "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and (as your going) make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." It's in Matthew 20. But even in the Old Testament, many prophecies talk about it. Genesis 12, for example, where God blesses Abraham: "in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed."

If Jesus is God, He can say "fool" – first of all, He has the knowledge. Second, God (unlike us) is the Creator, He has the right to judge.

But it's not even that. When Jesus says that ("whoever says, 'You fool!' shall be in danger of hell fire" He's comparing the written law to God's actual requirements. The Jews tried to honor the letter of the law, but they didn't care about what was behind it, and that's what Jesus was talking about. You can see how He went through many of the commandments in that same chapter (Matthew 5.)

The problem is that everybody sins. Let's assume I live a perfect life. I also do many good things. If I steal something, will I not be judged? (I'm talking about justice, not that it's "not a big deal." ) Would my good deeds undo (completely erase) that one small thing? Could I stand up before God and say: "I am good enough even for You, I deserve to go to heaven"?

The only reason I can stand up before God is because He forgave me. And the only reason He could forgave me is because Jesus died for me. And the only reason Jesus died for me is so that He can forgive me...

The judgment is death, but "it was not possible that He should be held by it." (Acts 2:24)

"Immanuel" literally means "God is with us" in Hebrew, and it's not Jesus' personal name, but His descriptive name: He's God who came to us.

... king, ruler which he was not within the jewish people,

His kingship, as He explained to the Pharisees whose picture of Messiah was that of a military leader, was "not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here." (John 18)

Jesus, before He died, talked about sending the comforter (or helper), and it's universally understood parallel to His statement after He resurrected: "He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father, 'which,' He said, 'you have heard from Me; for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.'" (Acts 1:4-5) And it indeed happened not much time later, as we read about it in the beginning of Acts, chapter 2: "When the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance."

I agree that all God is asking for is sincere repentance. As James (in chapter 4) quotes the Proverbs of King Solomon: "God resists the proud, But gives grace to the humble."

I know that Islam has very clear rules about what to do and how to live. God, when He gave the law to Moses, gave similarly clear rules. But, nobody could keep the law! I mean, people could keep it more or less, but if somebody breaks the tiniest part of the law, he breaks the entire law. We learn it from the letter to the Romans (chapter 7) that the law is good, but it's purpose was not to make us good, but to show us that we're evil. We know we are sinners because we break the law. Everybody does things that even his own conscience says: "IT'S BAD." Actually, Paul in this same letter, in chapter 1, says that those who doesn't know the written law of Moses will be judged by the law God put in their own conscience.

All the other disciples and the whole contemporary church accepted that Paul met Jesus (in a revelation when he got converted from persecuting the early church, but maybe at other times.) The early Christians were very (VERY) strict about what they excepted as a holy writing, and the fact that Paul's letters made the cut proves it that his writings were thoroughly trusted by the whole Christian church as the word of God. If we're talking about Christianity, Paul's writings are just as authoritative as the Gospels. In fact, Luke, the writer of one of the gospels and the Book of Acts, was a traveling companion to Paul.

I think I wasn't clear about my comment about "knowing God correctly." When I wrote about living "a life as one who knows is accepted by God" meant that because I know God's character, I can be assured that my life is safely hidden in His hands, and that I am forgiven for all my sins. I can be sure that He accepts me as His child (a thing that, I think, sounds very scandalously from an Islamic point of view.) And I know that it doesn't depend on my own goodness and worthiness but on His grace and His mercy. I tried to contrast this correct knowledge of God to the sadness of not knowing God correctly, which results in continuous fear from His wrath (as if He was constantly trying to find in me), and trying to become "good enough" for Him (which is impossible!) But one who knows God's character correctly knows it that He would never reject even the worst sinner who repents and humbly comes to Him for forgiveness.

But, other parts of the law were a very clear and detailed description about how to worship God: the different sacrifices, the different feasts, and the like.

Jesus says in Matthew 5: "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill." (If you go to a Jewish Pessach dinner, it's almost creepy how every little thing is a reference to Jesus, including His death.)

Now that the worshipping God in that prescribed way no longer makes the same sense,

as the one who they pointed at has already come. The letter to the Hebrews, chapter 9 talks about it. In the same letter, in chapter 7 we read: "For on the one hand there is an annulling of the former commandment because of its weakness and unprofitableness, for the law made nothing perfect; on the other hand, there is the bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God."

Now, that Jesus came, worship is different.

Jesus said: "But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him." (John 4:23) It means that worshipping God is not about the form,

it's about being filled with His Spirit and being in His truth.

In fact, our very lives must bring glory to God, be a testimony of His grace, that's real worship.

So, I won't be able to give you a full detail, because life is too detailed for that =)

(It might cause some confusion that Christians often call singing songs "worship." But that's just to say that "we're singing to worship God" (e.g. proclaiming how great, merciful, glorious, full of grace He is), it's not saying that "worship equals singing to God" – worship is much more than that.)

(The Christian view of mercy v.s. grace is this: mercy is being forgiven though I deserve judgment, grace is being given good things even though I deserve the opposite.)

i am interested to know about the "differences i know about between islam and christianity". You want my email or you wanna do it on NL? I have a thread I will love you to contribute. Its on NL and it is a simple question; i wanna know who is the another comforter who heard from God before he spoke to man. What did he say to the disciples that the Bibles reported Jesus promised the another comforter to? How is he abiding by them forever now that they are all in the graves? What did he say to correct them and from what wrong? You are in for a shock of your life. I will take you to task, InshaAllah. And i hope when you find the truth, you will follow the reality instead of behaving like toto in the wizard of oz?


[b]I will try my best, I am very busy now (I'm already abusing my sleeping time just to answer you smiley) But I'll do my best and I'll definitely go on your thread. Just give me a few days; my brother's wedding is in three days, and it means I have to fly to another country! =)[/b

I don't quite agree to what cescy wrote there. God will not punish the innocent. Now, of course, the problem is, we can see (really) innocent people around… But still, one thing I know about God: He knows us completely, He will not judge anybody who's not worthy of it, and He will not judge anybody who asks Him for forgiveness, even if His knowledge is incomplete about Him. Why would He, when it's only by His convicting us that we even realize we need to turn to Him: "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day," says Jesus in John 6:44. So, even just turning to God and asking His forgiveness is a gift of God!

I'm not shivering for hating my neighbor either. Since the moment that I got saved by God's grace I know that God adopted me into His family, now He is my Father, not because I'm good or because I'll never sin again (I'm still imperfect, obviously), but [b]on account of His Son: "In that day you will ask in My name, and I do not say to you that I shall pray the Father for you; for the Father Himself loves you, because you have loved Me, and have believed that I came forth from God." (John 16:26-27)

I didn't quite get what cescy meant there... But anyway, Jesus of course wasn't a "Christian," that name was given by the mockers of the "Way" (as the early Christians simply called themselves.) But they thought of being persecuted for Christ their Lord as an honor, and accepted that name. So, "Christian" is just a name, the concept is being a disciple of Christ Jesus. "Christ" is greek for the Jewish word "Messiah" which stands for (God's) "Annointed" – the one who God sent (anointing somebody with oil was the sign of giving authority or assigning a position, such as kingship.) Jesus couldn't have been his own disciple or follower, obviously =)

All the other disciples and the whole contemporary church accepted that Paul met Jesus (in a revelation when he got converted from persecuting the early church, but maybe at other times.) The early Christians were very (VERY) strict about what they excepted as a holy writing, and the fact that Paul's letters made the cut proves it that his writings were thoroughly trusted by the whole Christian church as the word of God. If we're talking about Christianity, Paul's writings are just as authoritative as the Gospels. In fact, Luke, the writer of one of the gospels and the Book of Acts, was a traveling companion to Paul.

I think I wasn't clear about my comment about "knowing God correctly." When I wrote about living "a life as one who knows is accepted by God" meant that because I know God's character, I can be assured that my life is safely hidden in His hands, and that I am forgiven for all my sins. I can be sure that He accepts me as His child (a thing that, I think, sounds very scandalously from an Islamic point of view.) And I know that it doesn't depend on my own goodness and worthiness but on His grace and His mercy. I tried to contrast this correct knowledge of God to the sadness of not knowing God correctly, which results in continuous fear from His wrath (as if He was constantly trying to find in me), and trying to become "good enough" for Him (which is impossible!) But one who knows God's character correctly knows it that He would never reject even the worst sinner who repents and humbly comes to Him for forgiveness.

But, other parts of the law were a very clear and detailed description about how to worship God: the different sacrifices, the different feasts, and the like.

Jesus says in Matthew 5: "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill." (If you go to a Jewish Pessach dinner, it's almost creepy how every little thing is a reference to Jesus, including His death.)

Now that the worshipping God in that prescribed way no longer makes the same sense,

as the one who they pointed at has already come. The letter to the Hebrews, chapter 9 talks about it. In the same letter, in chapter 7 we read: "For on the one hand there is an annulling of the former commandment because of its weakness and unprofitableness, for the law made nothing perfect; on the other hand, there is the bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God."

Now, that Jesus came, worship is different.

Jesus said: "But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him." (John 4:23) It means that worshipping God is not about the form,

it's about being filled with His Spirit and being in His truth.

In fact, our very lives must bring glory to God, be a testimony of His grace, that's real worship.

So, I won't be able to give you a full detail, because life is too detailed for that =)

(It might cause some confusion that Christians often call singing songs "worship." But that's just to say that "we're singing to worship God" (e.g. proclaiming how great, merciful, glorious, full of grace He is), it's not saying that "worship equals singing to God" – worship is much more than that.)

(The Christian view of mercy v.s. grace is this: mercy is being forgiven though I deserve judgment, grace is being given good things even though I deserve the opposite.)

i am interested to know about the "differences i know about between islam and christianity". You want my email or you wanna do it on NL? I have a thread I will love you to contribute. Its on NL and it is a simple question; i wanna know who is the another comforter who heard from God before he spoke to man. What did he say to the disciples that the Bibles reported Jesus promised the another comforter to? How is he abiding by them forever now that they are all in the graves? What did he say to correct them and from what wrong? You are in for a shock of your life. I will take you to task, InshaAllah. And i hope when you find the truth, you will follow the reality instead of behaving like toto in the wizard of oz?


[b]I will try my best, I am very busy now (I'm already abusing my sleeping time just to answer you smiley) But I'll do my best and I'll definitely go on your thread. Just give me a few days; my brother's wedding is in three days, and it means I have to fly to another country! =)[/b

I don't quite agree to what cescy wrote there. God will not punish the innocent. Now, of course, the problem is, we can see (really) innocent people around… But still, one thing I know about God: He knows us completely, He will not judge anybody who's not worthy of it, and He will not judge anybody who asks Him for forgiveness, even if His knowledge is incomplete about Him. Why would He, when it's only by His convicting us that we even realize we need to turn to Him: "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day," says Jesus in John 6:44. So, even just turning to God and asking His forgiveness is a gift of God!

I'm not shivering for hating my neighbor either. Since the moment that I got saved by God's grace I know that God adopted me into His family, now He is my Father, not because I'm good or because I'll never sin again (I'm still imperfect, obviously), but [b]on account of His Son: "In that day you will ask in My name, and I do not say to you that I shall pray the Father for you; for the Father Himself loves you, because you have loved Me, and have believed that I came forth from God." (John 16:26-27)

I didn't quite get what cescy meant there... But anyway, Jesus of course wasn't a "Christian," that name was given by the mockers of the "Way" (as the early Christians simply called themselves.) But they thought of being persecuted for Christ their Lord as an honor, and accepted that name. So, "Christian" is just a name, the concept is being a disciple of Christ Jesus. "Christ" is greek for the Jewish word "Messiah" which stands for (God's) "Annointed" – the one who God sent (anointing somebody with oil was the sign of giving authority or assigning a position, such as kingship.) Jesus couldn't have been his own disciple or follower, obviously =)