To think i expected more from these people. . . .

What it is is what it is

you cannot change what God made to be.

Gamine:

In Gods Perfect Design
He created sex to exist solely between husband and wife

No disagreements there.

Anyways,
Why Worship?
Worship is a way to demonstrate your awe, admiration, adoration and affection for an object or person
but in this context, we talk about worship to God and spouse
When you truly worship, it takes your mind off yourself, your circumstances and catch a glimpse of how God sees things.

I agree on ur description of worship BUT we're not called or even hinted at to worship our spouses!?!

Sexual intimacy is the highest form of mutual worship
it is the place of complete vulnerability and openness

when a person is vulnerable/open and laid bare that does not equal worship, how you take reach that conclusion my sister?
All it means is that you've given urself over to ur spouse, that is not necessarily worshipping him/her.

For a moment suspended in time, man and woman return to being naked and unashamed
Without pretense all is revealed and exchanged, the two come away with a deeper knowledge
of each other, sharing a bond stronger than before.
Gods perfect Design!.

I think we all agree this is the ideal for married people. They become one with each other and nothing is left hidden. But how is this physical/sexual bond worship? all it is is a bond and connection btw 2 people.

In our covenant relationship with God our worship should be in spirit and in truth. This is the truth expressed by Jesus. Spirit touching spirit, our spirit reaching out in truth and yielding to the one true spirit of God. True worship, not that which just touches the heart of man, but also touches the heart of God. It brings to Him real joy and real blessing. God lives in the praises of His people in true worship, and when we bless Him, He blesses us. This is a true intermingling through worship and praise, of God's Spirit and our spirit.

Worship ascends to God and blessings descend to man, and by this way we are nurtured and fed, with a great strengthening in our spirit. This is the true imparting of real life in the Lord.

It is a false concept that worship must always include singing. Any act that brings joy to God can be deemed worship

John 4:24 NIV) God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."

God desires true worship, spirit to spirit and in Godly sex, under the covenant of marriage He delights in the worship of man and wife. It is made the more precious because it is truly spiritual, pure and holy because it is in the truth of Jesus Christ His Son,

This is truly a nurturing and strengthening of man and wife, two, yet one

before God presented in the love and grace of Jesus Christ, in that three strand relationship

If you're saying that when two married people come together and are united, physically, mentally, emotionally and sexually it glorifies God becos it's done according to His word, I totally get that. and when you add:

It is a false concept that worship must always include singing. Any act that brings joy to God can be deemed worship

Now I think I see your point. But I still don't agree.
Everything that a married couple does together in unity pleases God becos it's in accordance with His word, that husband and wife be one and dedicate themselves to each other.
When they go out together to dinner, they're spending time with each other
When they make decisions together, like buying groceries and buying a house
When they go shopping together etc. . .

All these things makes God pleased that they're each loving and dedicated to each other in a godly way. Are those other things also worship too? since God is pleased?

If you're going to say "any act that brings joy to God can be deemed worship" then everything a married couple does together in accordance with honoring and loving each other is worship! every single thing!

That's why I still don't agree sex is worship. Care to debunk my arguements?

oh my days!
lol.

ok you see my point. . . .

Then i have to ask you now
Before i go further

What is Sex to you?
What is Worship to you?

Gamine:

oh my days!
lol.

ok you see my point. . . .

Then i have to ask you now
Before i go further

What is Sex to you?
What is Worship to you?

me sef I dey laugh too. . .
To me and as far I can see and understand scripture, sex is for procreation, pleasure and intimacy. . .of which I place pleasure and intimacy at the top.

And to me worship can only be directed right at God. Worship is the act of adoring and glorifying God. When we see instances in scripture of people worshipping God, it involved an act of speaking praise, or bowing down or lifting their hands or something like that that showed humbling oneself and lifting up God. For example in 1Cor 14: we see Paul's description of what orderly worship should be like, the singing, the praying etc.
My lifestyle that I live of godliness I wouldn't necessarily call "worship". Yes it glorifies God but doesn't exactly fall under the category of actual worship.

Jesus Christ, the best Worshiper of His Father, had nothing to do with sex.

What can we learn from this??

Worship is the act of adoring and glorifying God

This is what you said Jesoul

If sex between married people isnt glorifying God, who is it glorifyying

I hope you guys understand im not even talking about just the Physical part

thats what is steeped in your mind.

@imhotep
For goodness sake i didnt say sex is the only form of worship!

i guess i have to modify the topic

and break it down to you guys like a fraction!

Gamine:

Worship is the act of adoring and glorifying God

This is what you said Jesoul

If sex between married people isnt glorifying God, who is it glorifyying

I hope you guys understand im not even talking about just the Physical part

thats what is steeped in your mind.

Lol. . .how person no go immediately think the physical part when you hear "sex is worship"? it's only natural to think

Yes I did say it is the act of glorifying God but in the rest of that paragraph I said as in the scriptures its done with speaking praise, or bowing down or lifting their hands etc. .
When you obey God and live a godly life it glorifies His name. But the "actual act of worship" is different from this. make sense?

lol

I know its the physical that comes more to mind.

But what do you mean by the act of worship and the actual act of worship
Dont get yourself in a fix

there are many instances where people worshipped God and we werent told the action
that they took part in.

A part of me thinks this problem with the word 'worship' has to do with English language lol

Gamine:

lol

I know its the physical that comes more to mind.

But what do you mean by the act of worship and the actual act of worship
Dont get yourself in a fix

there are many instances where people worshipped God and we werent told the action
that they took part in.

A part of me thinks this problem with the word 'worship' has to do with English language lol

I know where you are coming from. But putting it this way gives it a paganistic undertone. I suggest you read 'Theology of the Body'.

Man is a fallen creature, all his activities (including sex) have a tendency to lead him away from God. He (man & woman) has to struggle to be in tune with God. It was not so in the beginning.

Yes i get you.

The people im talking about in marriage are Redeemed people
They will glorify God in their Union


BTW
Where can i get this book

Gamine:

Yes i get you.

The people im talking about in marriage are Redeemed people
They will glorify God in their Union


BTW
Where can i get this book

Well, marriage does not restore the graces lost by man (and woman). That is why the marriage itself can also be the source of great temptation and fall.


Theology of the Body refers to a series of 129 lectures given by Pope John Paul II during his Wednesday audiences between September 1979 and November 1984.

Topics covered include

* 1 Christian ideal of marriage
* 2 Adultery
* 3 Resurrection of the body
* 4 Celibacy and virginity
* 5 Sacrament of marriage
* 6 Contraception etc, etc

An online version of the lectures can be found here: http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2TBIND.HTM

Happy reading,

We arent justified by works alone

WE live through Jesus in this World

Lots of stuff to read o!

Think about this

“What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? …You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only…? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.” (James 2:14, 24, 26)

Gamine:

lol

I know its the physical that comes more to mind.

But what do you mean by the act of worship and the actual act of worship
Dont get yourself in a fix

there are many instances where people worshipped God and we werent told the action
that they took part in.

A part of me thinks this problem with the word 'worship' has to do with English language lol

It could very well be, but I'm still skeptical.
Act of worship/actual act of worship - what I was tryn to say is in keeping with the examples we've been given in the scriptures - speaking praise, singing, bowing, etc. . .those are acts of worship multitudes of scriptures give examples of.

You're right in saying they're instances it is not specified how they worshipped God, BUT there is no hint anywhere of sex involved at anytime with anyone. So I'm proposing we just stick to what we know and can prove/justify with scripture. Cos we need to be able to justify our beliefs based on what He's given us (His word) before God and our consciences.

@imhotep
Gamine's right, that website is lots to read!
plus don't take this the wrong way but I don't take anything the pope says. The catholic doctrine has some things that outright violate scripture and any bible-believing christian cannot take anything he says as valid based on that. Sorry.

JeSoul:

@imhotep
Gamine's right, that website is lots to read!
plus don't take this the wrong way but I don't take anything the pope says. The catholic doctrine has some things that outright violate scripture and any bible-believing christian cannot take anything he says as valid based on that. Sorry.

True, the website is a lot to read. I have a pdf version of the book though.
The Pope is not a small boy. His reflections run very deep.

You will also observe that those who do not listen to the Pope (and a good number of these read the bible every day) are those that are solidly behind:
- abortion
- euthanasia
- gay/lesbian 'marriage' (whatever that means)
- embryonic stem cells
- divorce / serial polygamy
- bestiality
- drug addiction
etc. These are ills that destroy the very fabric of human society.

There is much more to Christianity than cramming the bible. Today, there are millions of bible sold each day, but the KNOWLEDGE of God and His affairs is still deficient.

@Gamine:
Let me show you the pagan roots of the 'sex is worship' idea.

The roman goddess Venus and the greek goddess Aphrodite (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aphrodite) were both goddesses of love.

Those who visited their temples engaged in sex as a form of communion with the divine.

The concept of venereal disease is based on the latin word Veneris (a possessive form of the noun Venus)

We can see how wrong they all were.

True, the website is a lot to read. I have a pdf version of the book though.
The Pope is not a small boy. His reflections run very deep.

You will also observe that those who do not listen to the Pope (and a good number of these read the bible every day) are those that are solidly behind:
- abortion
- euthanasia
- gay/lesbian 'marriage' (whatever that means)
- embryonic stem cells
- divorce / serial polygamy
- bestiality
- drug addiction
etc. These are ills that destroy the very fabric of human society.

and what do those people have to do with me? and every other christian who's strictly bible-beliving?
The fact that some of the popes critics that might be hypocrits has absolutely no effect on anything I do or think or believe.
The matter at hand is that the pope/catholic church has tenets that flat out violate the scriptures. . .why would I listen to what ever else he has to say when their doctrine denies the fact we're saved by grace alone? among others?

I'm not here to start or continue catholic bashing but we cannot use any extra-biblical materials here in this discussion, especially material that comes from a source that's not christian. Sorry.

Catholic bashing is 'business-as-usual'. We have seen it all, I assure you.

1) We are saved by faith AND good works

“What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? …You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only…? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.” (James 2:14, 24, 26)

2) Sola scriptura (by scripture alone) is at the root of Protestantism.

Now, where does this phrase ("by scripture alone" occur in the BIBLE, old testament or new testament

Sola scriptura, when applied to itself, fails woefully.

"Catholic bashing" is not my style. . . I think there have been more than enuff discussions here on that.
But nevertheless I shall indulge you brotha

1) We are saved by faith AND good works

“What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? …You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only…? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.” (James 2:14, 24, 26)

uhm no, we are saved by grace alone! You need to read the scripture you quoted properly. It is saying it is impossible to have faith without works. Works is as a result of faith BUT the works themselves do not play any part whatsoever in our salvation. That is accomplished solely by God

Eph 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

2) Sola scriptura (by scripture alone) is at the root of Protestantism.

Now, where does this phrase ("by scripture alone" occur in the BIBLE, old testament or new testament

Sola scriptura, when applied to itself, fails woefully.

The only scripture acceptable to any christian useful for rebuke, reprove and growth is the holy bible. End of story.
And even moreso when any other "extra-biblical" writings or tenets or church constitutions violate/contradict the Holy Bible!

Anyways I prefer to stay on topic - there's enuff threads that have responded to ur concerns much more intelligently.

1) This : "The only scripture acceptable to any christian useful for rebuke, reprove and growth is the holy bible. End of story" is not in the bible. Do u feel me?

2) Do you know that one of the disastrous consequeces of 'sola fide' (by faith alone) is the gay problem that has infested a lot of churches around the world?

Their root of their argument is: as far as we believe in Jesus, we can do whatever we want to do. Our faith in Him will save us at the end.

So, we have bible believing christians who parade with the bible and encourage others to be gay!

When the bible is mis-interpreted, the consequences can be damning.

3) Jesus said:
Matthew 7:21: Not everyone who calls me, “Lord, Lord,” will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who DOES the will of my Father who is in heaven. ,

Following Jesus is about DEEDS, not sweet words or sentiments.

@imhotep

Satan always tries to corrupt and corrupts any thing God made

he has corrupted alot in the world today

he didnt make Sex a form of worship, God did

And he ran with it cos its very spiritual, im not looking at the physical at all here

Thats why sexual sin is of a higher order than most others and the
consequences are usually more harsh.

Gamine:

@imhotep

Satan always tries to corrupt and corrupts any thing God made

he has corrupted alot in the world today

he didnt make Sex a form of worship, God did

And he ran with it because its very spiritual, im not looking at the physical at all here

Thats why sexual sin is of a higher order than most others and the
consequences are usually more harsh.

I understand what you are saying. I'm just saying you have to be cautious how you put it. Otherwise you run the risk of being mis-interpreted over a serious issue.

Cheers.

Cool.

cheers too.!

@Gamine

BTW, where is CanaanLand?

lol

Canaanland is where my School is located

in ota, ogun state

imhotep:

1) This : "The only scripture acceptable to any christian useful for rebuke, reprove and growth is the holy bible. End of story" is not in the bible. Do u feel me?

  I most certainly don't! 
The bible does not explicitly say that it is an accepted fact by true christians. And you are choosing to ignore the fact that your extra-biblical church tenets blatantly VIOLATE/CONTRADICT the scriptures!!! That is all anyone needs to know about the catholic doctrine and why it cannot be accepted by any bible-beliving christian.

2) Do you know that one of the disastrous consequeces of 'sola fide' (by faith alone) is the gay problem that has infested a lot of churches around the world?

Their root of their argument is: as far as we believe in Jesus, we can do whatever we want to do. Our faith in Him will save us at the end. So, we have bible believing christians who parade with the bible and encourage others to be gay!

  Again what does the fact that some people out there are hypocrits have to do with me?! 
The bible stands alone by itself - don't say because some people who claim to only follow it are liars, then all those who only follow the bible are likewise liars.  no be wetin you dey try to talk be that?

There will always be people who use the grace of God as a licence to sin but Paul clearly tells us those people are dead wrong! so what's your problem?
What does that have to do with the bible as the only singular authority on all things christian?

When the bible is mis-interpreted, the consequences can be damning.

3) Jesus said:
Matthew 7:21: Not everyone who calls me, “Lord, Lord,” will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who DOES the will of my Father who is in heaven. ,

Following Jesus is about DEEDS, not sweet words or sentiments.

  Since you ignored the scripture I gave you before, here it is again in large font:
  Eph 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

  Following Jesus is NOT about deeds/works. Works come as a result of faith, and that faith in Jesus to save us by His grace. Your works play no part whatsoever in your salvation! it is God alone who saves!

@JeSoul
You need to look at the [b]'Joint Declaration on Justifica[/b]tion' signed by the Catholics and Lutherans in 1999; and later adopted by the Methodists.

You can click here -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_Declaration_on_the_Doctrine_of_Justification

Remember that the Lutherans are disciples of Martin Luther.

They are beginning to see the light dimly.

Happy reading

You might also marvel at the conclusions/theology of this bible believing church!!!

Please click here http://kinkymarymagdeline.com/

Our view that sex is dirty, possibly even evil, has led many Christians into immorality rather than into righteousness, despite good (though ill-founded) intentions. So, reacting to all the perversity that surrounds us by deemphasizing sex and emphasizing spiritual things is a strategy that has failed. And rightly so. We were never meant to live as if our bodies were dirty and evil. Rather, our bodies are "members of Christ himself" (6:15, NIV).

There are millions of other christians who have not fallen in spite of what you call 'our view' of sex.

Those who fall are, like the rest of us, frail and in need of repentance/forgiveness/mercy.

God does not reject those who ask him for forgiveness.

Luke 5:32 "I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance."