@Frosbel, interesting! Reyginus is Anony?

italo: I weep for Christianity!

See confusion!

Jesus is sure not the author of this confusion.

Now who is telling the truth?

Everyone is saying different things and everyone will claim to be under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

Somebody/some people is/are lying/preaching false doctrine...

...And it sure aint The Holy Spirit.

I continue to look on...wondering who to believe.

Reserve your weeping for the false pagan gospel that has brought so much confusion into the body of Christ.

The popes have a lot to answer for on the day of judgement.

seriallink: @Frosbel, interesting! Reyginus is Anony?

That's Anony I think, not sure

frosbel:


Reserve your weeping for the false pagan gospel that has brought so much confusion into the body of Christ.

The popes have a lot to answer for on the day of judgement.

Blame Paul (Saul) The Romans knew history and were not about to be circumsid like Egypt was.. what next.. melding cultures and religions with the fastest growing movement of that time it worked well too.

Mr_Anony:
Oh brother, this is one of those areas where the Lord has not yet opened my understanding to the fullest but then I am not in a rush to throw in half-baked answers. I'll take my time and give it some study and hopefully by weekend when I am a bit more free, we'll break bread. In the meantime, I'll read any biblical contributions that show up on the thread while making sure to ignore the sectarian and self promotions.

In other words,
It is not in the bible,
or, it is too ambiguous,
or it is too contradictory?

Todaynatoday: @Obadiah777, thanks for taking the time to reply me but what you just stated above just left me in a confused state. Not to worry, I've saved this page and I'll read it over again carefully. Thanks once again.

i know its confusing. but its not supposed to be straight-forward. it only becomes straight forward after lots of diligence in studying the bible. scripture says study to show yourself approved ( 2 timothy 2 vs 15 ). scripture also says give diligence to make your election a certainty ( 2 peter 2 vs 10 ). scripture also says blessed is he that reads ( revelation 1 vs 3 ). you cant be a new testament christian. most of the jewels are in the old testament. good-luck though. i have no doubt that you will understand with time.

frosbel:
Reserve your weeping for the false pagan gospel that has brought so much confusion into the body of Christ.

So pagans can bring "so much confusion into the body of Christ?" I don't think so.

Jesus said "the gates of hades cannot prevail against his Church."

If there is "so much confusion" in the BODY, it is Christ's body.

frosbel: The popes have a lot to answer for on the day of judgement.

Of course. That's because they are human.

But you, who are divine, who are always right, who knows everything, will have nothing to answer for.

Image123 and Ihedinobi - please I need your inputs on a very important thread. While you post there, dont post your own ideas or what you think the answer should be - just post scriptures to support whatever you say. https://www.nairaland.com/1095513/christians-believe-not-tell-me#12856888

italo:

So pagans can bring "so much confusion into the body of Christ?" I don't think so.

Jesus said "the gates of hades cannot prevail against his Church."

If there is "so much confusion" in the BODY, it is Christ's body.



Of course. That's because they are human.

But you, who are divine, who are always right, who knows everything, will have nothing to answer for.

The catholic church is not the CHURCH !

Catholic Church is led by the POPE.

The Church is led by Christ.

One is led by Christ while the other is led by anti-Christ !!

frosbel:


The catholic church is not the CHURCH !

Catholic Church is led by the POPE.

The Church is led by Christ.

One is led by Christ while the other is led by anti-Christ !!

Lucky for you, this rant will be ignored, by jove if it were the times of the inquisition (the height of Mother Church) I'd have you impaled and burned at the stake for stating the FACT

lagerwhenindoubt:

Lucky for you, this rant will be ignored, by jove if it were the times of the inquisition (the height of Mother Church) I'd have you impaled and burned at the stake for stating the FACT

Am I not lucky , lol.

lagerwhenindoubt:

Lucky for you, this rant will be ignored, by jove if it were the times of the inquisition (the height of Mother Church) I'd have you impaled and burned at the stake for stating the FACT

Frosbel, you are a lucky man oh!

What happens when a sinner dies?

a. Does he go immediately to face torment then gets resurrected on the last day to be judged and then thrown into the lake of fire?

Allow me punch two small holes into this logic.

i) What SIN did mere mortals commit that is worse than that of the devil and why is he and his convoy of evil beings, still roaming around the earth without any immediate torment or punishment.

Does God hate us so much that when we die in sin , he immediately sends us to hell while the demons are free for now


ii) Do you honestly think that a mortal who dies is sent to torment before judgement , raised again by a reuniting of body and soul , judged and then sent to torment again ?

What is the purpose of a resurrection if that person is alive somewhere else ?

b. Does he remain void of consciousness then gets resurrected on the last day to be judged and then thrown into the lake of fire?

Yes, and he is thrown into the lake of fire with DEATH and the GRAVE which will also be destroyed.

"The last enemy to be destroyed is death." - 1 Corinthians 15:26

If death is to be destroyed in the lake of fire , why not the wicked ?

What happens to the righteous when he dies?

a. Does he go into a conscious comfort and then gets resurrected at the rapture to spend eternity with the Lord.

No, he is as dead as a dodo.

b. Does he remain void of consciousness then gets resurrected at the rapture to spend eternity with the Lord.

Yes

@Image123, wow, bro. Thank God for you. I agree with your post in its entirety.

I think the thing that impedes our understanding of this matter may be a false human compassion. I don't think any of us feels bad about throwing dirt out of our living and work space. Nor do we feel particularly good about living or dealing with people who feel obliged to do so despite the fact they hate our guts.

Regardless, good posts, bro.

italo: I weep for Christianity!

See confusion!

Jesus is sure not the author of this confusion.

Now who is telling the truth?

Everyone is saying different things and everyone will claim to be under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

Somebody/some people is/are lying/preaching false doctrine...

...And it sure aint The Holy Spirit.

I continue to look on...wondering who to believe.

Yo u took the words right out of my mouth.

frosbel:


The catholic church is not the CHURCH !

Catholic Church is led by the POPE.

The Church is led by Christ.

One is led by Christ while the other is led by anti-Christ !!

So which and/or where is this "church/body of Christ of yours which the gates of hades has put so much confusion into/prevailed against?

italo:

So which and/or where is this "church/body of Christ of yours which the gates of hades has put so much confusion into/prevailed against?

Hell prevailed against the catholic church eons ago, but it cannot prevail against the true church of GOD.

Mr_Anony:
Oh brother, this is one of those areas where the Lord has not yet opened my understanding to the fullest but then I am not in a rush to throw in half-baked answers. I'll take my time and give it some study and hopefully by weekend when I am a bit more free, we'll break bread. In the meantime, I'll read any biblical contributions that show up on the thread while making sure to ignore the sectarian and self promotions.

I can wait. It may be, though, that it will be in the midst of bread-breaking that our collective understanding will be fully opened. I mean, so the Scriptures appear to imply what with Jesus and the two disciples headed to Emmaus after His resurrection and our Lord's Words that He is to be found in fullness in the midst of two or three of His in gathering.

But, like I said, I can and will wait. I pray the vultures don't carry the seed away before it gets into the soil though.

@ frosbel,

When did hell prevail against it?

Where/which is the true Church of God and why were pagans able to put so much confusion into it?

Interesting discussion.

As an aside, I have a question for Italo - does the fact that someone claims to be 'infallible' in matters of faith and morals mean he/she is actually infallible?

Secondly, since you claim you can't (or shouldn't) interpret scriptures without the 'Church', please provide the 'infallible' interpretation from the 'Church'.

debosky: Interesting discussion.

As an aside, I have a question for Italo - does the fact that someone claims to be 'infallible' in matters of faith and morals mean he/she is actually infallible?

Secondly, since you claim you can't (or shouldn't) interpret scriptures without the 'Church', please provide the 'infallible' interpretation from the 'Church'.

Thank you brah for those questions.

Maybe it was because he saw this anti-atheist quote on my profile :

'To doubt is not sin, but to be contented to remain in doubt when God has provided ''many infallible proofs'' to cure it, is' ~ Irwin H. Linton.

Italo, are you an atheist

Ihedinobi: @Image123, wow, bro. Thank God for you. I agree with your post in its entirety.

I think the thing that impedes our understanding of this matter may be a false human compassion. I don't think any of us feels bad about throwing dirt out of our living and work space. Nor do we feel particularly good about living or dealing with people who feel obliged to do so despite the fact they hate our guts.

Regardless, good posts, bro.

thanks my brother, my wish is for JeSoul to come with that pesticide i mentioned.

According to what image123 said, the rich should have been sleeping in hell fire. I wonder why he was awake looking for drinking water.

Ihedinobi: @Image123, wow, bro. Thank God for you. I agree with your post in its entirety.

I think the thing that impedes our understanding of this matter may be a false human compassion. I don't think any of us feels bad about throwing dirt out of our living and work space. Nor do we feel particularly good about living or dealing with people who feel obliged to do so despite the fact they hate our guts.

Regardless, good posts, bro.

SMH

italo:

So which and/or where is this "church/body of Christ of yours which the gates of hades has put so much confusion into/prevailed against?

You can't apply the blessings of a true prophet to a false prophet just because they both bear the name 'prophet.' This is just for illustration purpose.

italo:

You don't have all the answers but you can condemn other people on issues which you have no answers on.

@The bolded, which issues are you referring to? Have I ever debated you on this topic?

FYI, no one has all the answers; but the Bible does! Scriptures say Iron sharpens Iron! That's why we share online to edify each other, but it seems your doctrines won't let you agree with anybody's interpretations. So, I'll advise you stick to your Church teachings & ignore any of my contribution/post from today & I'll do the same to yours!

Also, I can't remember CLAIMING or TELLING you @anytime that I know all, so, quit all the lies & shame the devil

italo: I weep for Christianity!

See confusion!

Jesus is sure not the author of this confusion.

Now who is telling the truth?

Everyone is saying different things and everyone will claim to be under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

Somebody/some people is/are lying/preaching false doctrine...

...And it sure aint The Holy Spirit.

I continue to look on...wondering who to believe.

Why you are confused is because you must have been believing for years, those that claim to be seeing in spirit.
Those that will tell you to go and pray so that you will start seeing in the spirit when you show them from the scripture.
Those that will tell you it is a mystery wherever e hook dem.

I still wonder the source of what they have been believing concerning the dead since it is difficult to reason it out from the scriptures.

seriallink: @Frosbel, interesting! Reyginus is Anony?

Anybody that disagrees with frosbel is Anony

@Frosbel. When you argue/discuss do you ever set out to learn anything?

Image123: The scriptures state that the spirit and the soul depart from the body at death. Quickly on the spirit departing are these 3,
Act 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
Luke 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.
Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Also on the soul's departure, we have,
Gen 35:18 And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died) that she called his name Ben-oni: but his father called him Benjamin.
1Ki 17:21 And he stretched himself upon the child three times, and cried unto the LORD, and said, O LORD my God, I pray thee, let this child's soul come into him again.
1Ki 17:22 And the LORD heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came into him again, and he revived.

When these something(s) leaves the body, it goes to a place of rest. The souls of some is spoken of as resting in the book of Revelation.

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
The passage talks of souls resting, which is in agreement with Jesus' views of sleeping, and His promise to give those who come unto Him rest. The afterlife is not just to sleep, but to have a good night rest. This state of rest and sleep is not the picture of running up and down, there is some restriction. Compare it with the story of the rich man and Lazarus. Lazarus is pictured in Abraham's bosom, a position of rest. He doesn't even say or do nothing in the account. But he is conscious, albeit in rest. A lot of things go on inside us when we rest/sleep. Some people have sweet dreams, the internal organs function and organise themselves better. A day is coming though, when Christ will wake up all, from their sleep. In that time, the spirit and soul will be rejoined to the body and the body will be changed.
1Co 15:51 Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

it's a mystery, but it will happen. The dead in Christ will rise first, then we, which are alive, will also be changed and will join them to forever be with the Lord.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

As for now, they surround us as a cloud of witnesses. Like Ihedinobi said, and whose post i totally agreed to, they are like in the cinema house as viewers.

Heb 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
We are surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses. These are dead saints, heroes of the faith, but they are witnessing. It is not a would be, it is present. God is not a God of the dead but of the living. The saints are alive. Jesus said, " And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die." Death is not the correct representation of what happens. Some people are already dead in God's eyes, before they die. But for believers, they are ever alive. In the net testament, we are come, or have come to Mount Zion, to a lot of angels. It is not a matter of the future or for the future, we have come. To the general assembly. To the spirits of just men. To Jesus. To God. These are all in present tense, not a future hthing. We are before the spirits of just men, they are surrounding us as witnesses. This is what happens in the afterlife.

Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

Destruction as used in the Word of God is not as
Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
Jesus died to destroy the devil. Is the devil now unconscious, or destroyed in the way we all perceive 'destroy'?
Even the work of God can be destroyed,according to the Bi
Zacharias was a prophet that perished in 2Chronicles 24. But as Bible students, we all know that that is not his end. I hope God gives us the grace to rightly divide his word, and give us more understanding and righteousness. So that, whatever may happen in the afterlife, we may be found worthy to stand before Him.

all this to proof what?

And you said:

Image123:
Quickly on the

how can all that be quickly to you?
*sigh*

Image123:
]Gen 35:18 And it came to pass, [b]as her soul was in departing, (for she died)

did you not see that the soul departing there means that she died?

The bible had to show in bracket that the soul departing means she died, like saying, she lost her life.

Dont you know what the words in bracket stand for?
*sigh*

Image123: Found me some time at last! What can i say, it is a clearly difficult subject. Nonetheless, the OP has permitted me to share. Firstly, there is something called ETERNITY. Death is our thin line, our transit between time and eternity. Many men live in time, All men live in time. We are in time, counting centuries, decades, years, months, days, and even microseconds. Time is just a partition, a cloud, created in God's hand. Eternity surrounds time. It is before time and after time. God holds eternity, and lives in eternity. He is the Eternal God, that is why He is called the Beginning and the End. He has no beginning and has no end, and He has created us in that image. This is why it is important for every man to note where he would spend eternity. There is eternal life, and there is eternal damnation.
Mark 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:
i wish there was no eternal damnation. Well, i wish many things too. i wish nigeria was developed like america. And i wish my friend to be the president etc. If wishes were horses. Still the Word of God is Truth, and is Amen, and so shall it be. The Word of God teaches that there is eternity. Ther is a forever and ever, something everlasting, for EVERY man. Unfortunately, words alone cannot describe everything or aptly describe everything.

2Co 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
Many times, God uses pictures that we are familiar with to explain untold realities. So we should many times learn not to overdwell on the words or letter, but on the essence and the spirit of God's Word. Jesus perceived death in a different way to how we perceive it. He knows all things. He is an authority, knowing what happens in the after life. Jesus looked at death as SLEEP.
Joh 11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
Joh 11:13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
Mat 9:24 He said unto them, Give place: for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn.
Mar 5:39 And when he was come in, he saith unto them, Why make ye this ado, and weep? the damsel is not dead, but sleepeth.
Luk 8:52 And all wept, and bewailed her: but he said, Weep not; she is not dead, but sleepeth.

From the passages above, it is evident that Jesus had a different view to death than we have as humans. he saw death as a sleep phase. Some other scriptures also term death as sleep. Consider the below.
Act 13:36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:
1Co 11:30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
1Co 15:51 Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
Act 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.
1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
2Pe 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
Eph 5:14 Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.

These passages show us that when we die, we are actually sleeping. This is truth irrespective of our past experience and knowledge, for the Word of God is Truth. And i dare say, that if one can have a good and enjoyed sleep(night rest as we know it), or a bad and troubled sleep(night rest as we know it). On the same premise, all men may have a good sleep or a troubled sleep in the afterlife.

In the scriptures, right from the old testament, there was always the picture and the idea that there was a consciousness in the afterlife.
Gen 15:15 And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age.
Here is God, telling Abraham, that when he died, He would go to his fathers. The expression is frequently used in the old testament. They had the idea of going to join some people when they died.

Gen 25:8 Then Abraham gave up the ghost, and died in a good old age, an old man, and full of years; and was gathered to his people.
It is either Abraham was gathered to his people, or he was not. God had told him that he would go, and chapter 25says he went when he died. this is the afterlife(or is it afterdeath). Similar expressions are severally used in the OT.

Gen 35:29 And Isaac gave up the ghost, and died, and was gathered unto his people, being old and full of days: and his sons Esau and Jacob buried him.

Gen 25:17 And these are the years of the life of Ishmael, a hundred and thirty and seven years: and he gave up the ghost and died; and was gathered unto his people.
Gen 49:33 And when Jacob had made an end of commanding his sons, he gathered up his feet into the bed, and yielded up the ghost, and was gathered unto his people.
Deu 32:50 And die in the mount whither thou goest up, and be gathered unto thy people; as Aaron thy brother died in mount Hor, and was gathered unto his people:
It is good that you move with the right people, because you will be gathered unto your people when you die. So folks, know your people, because you may have to spend the afterlife with them.
Gen 49:10 The scepter shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.
Bible students know this passage to be referring to the Lord's Christ,and it is to him that the people will gather. When we die, that is, when believers die, they are gathered in Christ. Other scriptures also say this.
-1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
-1Co 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
-Phi 1:23 For I am in a strait between two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
-2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

In the afterlife, something(s) definitely leaves the body, as seen in the last passage above "absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord". Some people argue that the body goes down to the grave and suffers corruption, therefore no feeling after death. But we have skipped the part that something(s) leaves the body in the afterlife. that thing(s) is what sleeps. In the afterlife, you either have a good sleep or a terrible sleep. Everybody sleeping will be awakened later on either for the first resurrection or for the white throne judgement.

Very insightful & well written. I cant agree anything more or less than this. Man is a spiritual being restricted by mortal body.

A friend of mine had tuberculosis some years back & was placed on drugs dat will last for some months. After fews weeks of using the drugs he started gettin better and later stopped takin the drugs without completing its usage over the prescribd months. His father dat had d died some yrs back appeared to him in a dream to warn him dat he will die if he stopped takin his drugs. My guy had to resumed with usin the drugs till he finally got fully better.

There are so much mystery in spiritual things, human logic can never comprehend it fully.

[quote author=true2god]Very insightful & well written. I cant agree anything more or less than this. Man is a spiritual being restricted by mortal body

Wrong.

God is a Spirit, angels are spirits, MAN is mere flesh and blood, only kept on the life support machine of GOD's breath called spirit.

A friend of mine had tuberculosis some years back & was placed on drugs dat will last for some months. After fews weeks of using the drugs he started gettin better and later stopped takin the drugs without completing its usage over the prescribd months. His father dat had d died some yrs back appeared to him in a dream to warn him dat he will die if he stopped takin his drugs. My guy had to resumed with usin the drugs till he finally got fully better.

And what does this mean, that because of this dream MAN is a spirit.

There are so much mystery in spiritual things, human logic can never comprehend it fully.

Mystery belongs to the catholic church and her daughters.

Everything that pertains to life, death and MAN generally is contained in the bible , why do you think we have almost 18,000 pages of the bible, surely not for fancy , no ??